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Wig Wag
1st Jul 2016, 16:04
Pilots threaten to strike over fatigue concerns (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/29/pilots-threaten-to-strike-over-fatigue-concerns/) - Daily Telegraph

Some airlines are fatiguing pilots by forcing them to work for 20 hours without an adequate break, sparking concerns about safety and raising the prospect of strike action towards the end of the summer holidays, the pilots’ union has warned.

Brian Strutton, the new general secretary of the British Airline Pilots’ Association (BAPLA), said that employees at one major, unidentified carrier are considering industrial action over the issue which, if approved, would take disrupt flights in September. He claimed new flight time rules introduced by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) in February had made it easier for airlines to force pilots to fly for longer and that “some real horror stories being reported to us”.

Mr Strutton, who took over as head of the union earlier this month, said it had compiled “really worrying stats” that raised broader concerns about safety. Some pilots are working for 20 hours with no time for rest breaks between flight turnarounds, the BALPA head claimed.

"We’ve just done a survey and a touch under half of pilots have told us that they’ve been compromised by fatigue at least once a month this year,” he said. “And by compromised, it’s a polite way of saying dropping off or losing concentration at the controls.”

What is the assessment of the new BALPA guy? Would he take a dispute all the way to strike action?

Busta
1st Jul 2016, 16:40
Post Brexit can we revert to UK FTL.

Mr Angry from Purley
1st Jul 2016, 19:01
20 hours FDP wiithout a break - not possible .
Maybe possible standby plus FDP but that was possible under cap371
Maybe awake time
And fatigue once a month he means sleepiness e.g the need go sleep
Slightly different meaning

Chesty Morgan
1st Jul 2016, 22:05
Not under EASA where sleepiness also infers fatigue.

Yankee Whisky
2nd Jul 2016, 00:15
Could time zone changes in short periods of time be a factor ?

Wageslave
2nd Jul 2016, 09:09
Mr Angry, your first assertion, though doubtless correct in itself is rendered irrelevant and misleading by your removal of the of the word "adequate" from the original statement.

How facts are skewed! Are you a journo or sump'n?

Nil further
2nd Jul 2016, 09:17
Mr Angry , when was the last time you operated 108 block short haul hours in a month , they comprised multi sector (up to 6 ) days into some of the worlds busiest airspace and airports with the odd deep night to a black hole Greek island thrown in .

Oh and there were 490 sectors in the past 12 months and 800 hours.

Be pleased to hear how you avoid fatigue when you do it ?

Mr Angry from Purley
2nd Jul 2016, 18:22
20 hours without an adequate break then. I still can't work out the maths sorry chaps
Nil further I don't doubt the numbers I was highlighting there is a subtle difference between fatigue and sleepiness .

Piltdown Man
2nd Jul 2016, 19:27
What is the assessment of the new BALPA guy? Would he take a dispute all the way to strike action?

It's not his call. The members in the affected company have to decide amongst themselves what they are going to do. Brian Strutton's function is to give them the resources they need in order to obtain safer rostering patterns.

AerocatS2A
3rd Jul 2016, 00:18
Sleepy/fatigue, whatever, they both make you unfit to fly.

framer
3rd Jul 2016, 00:22
I was highlighting there is a subtle difference between fatigue and sleepiness .
The definition keeps changing. Different regulators and Airlines have different definitions.
Science is in it's infancy regarding the brain/ sleep/ fatigue. I don't think you can highlight something that ten different specialists in the field will argue ten different angles on.

RAT 5
3rd Jul 2016, 10:56
ten different specialists in the field will argue ten different angles on.

Sounds like a bar full of pilots. Surely the only person who can assess the condition accurately is the individual affected. Knackered is knackered. Each knows their own capabilities and limitations, not a bunch of 'experts'. It can not be measured; there is no plug in machine; no series of tests; no datum for that individual to assess against. It is subjective, opinionated and up to the individual. If someone was strong-armed it would make an interesting court case. Although there was a RYR case, a few years ago I believe, where refusal to fly an extra sector brought on dismissal. What was the outcome?

APU_inop
3rd Jul 2016, 12:46
Where can I read about the new easa FTL? Haven't been in EASA-land since JAR.

max alt
4th Jul 2016, 10:00
Can I suggest you avoid terms, as feeling sleepy if you contact crewing.
I am unable to do this duty due to fatigue,would be more apt and avoid the phone ringing off the hook from the duty pilot.
If a duty is fatiguing ,then put in an MOR about it.They can't ignore all of them.:ok:

tubby linton
4th Jul 2016, 10:48
Apu inop, there is lots of stuff here:
https://www.eurocockpit.be/pages/flight-time-limitations

Basically , companies can now roster long flights ,Cyprus rotation, early in the morning and it is only after a lot of fatigue reports that the schedule will be altered. Some companies seem to be using fatigue limits as a rostering target.

Fire and brimstone
4th Jul 2016, 13:16
What fatigue are we talking about?

I recently did over 40 hours duty in three days, and it scored a 1/5 fatigue grading.

Proof I was not fatigued - stamped and airline official.

Come, come.

GarretHealy
5th Jul 2016, 14:58
APU more stuff here as well.
www.understandingeasa2016ftl.wordpress.com/

RAT 5
5th Jul 2016, 19:23
Don't worry; I have mates in one LoCo who were informed by medical experts in NASA that they could not be fatigued, but were too knackered to watch the whole video & read the full report. Strange times.

stiglet
6th Jul 2016, 08:16
There is a big difference between fatigue and tiredness (sleepiness). Fatigue is longterm and is health related whereas tiredness may only last for one duty - granted the consequences may be the same. For whatever reason if you are not fit don't fly; that is your responsibility.

Tiredness is also often self induced or at least under an individual's control. It is up to everyone to take personal responsibility for their rest; you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot.

I'm not belittling fatigue, it is a serious issue and should be tackled as such but I've seen too many use it as a scapegoat for their own irresponsible behaviour. If fatigue is not believed it will not be addressed by the companies or the industry. Comments such as the one in the lead article 'Some airlines are fatiguing pilots by forcing them to work for 20 hours without an adequate break' is not correct and consequently will deminish this serious safety issue.

evansb
6th Jul 2016, 08:30
Why is there still pride in being able to perform whilst being fatigued? Oh Doctors! Thou are so vain glorious! Errors become you..

RAT 5
6th Jul 2016, 09:20
Tiredness is also often self induced or at least under an individual's control. It is up to everyone to take personal responsibility for their rest;


So there I was, back in the day, with a summertime 05.30 report. Going to bed nice an early, like a true professional; listening to the Caribbean music from my neighbours BBQ and the slamming of car doors as they left at midnight.
Or, trying to sleep in the crew hotel, after a night flight, to the sound of other crews coming & going and the soft music of vacuum cleaners.
There was not much 'under my control'.

you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot.

Get real. It all depends who you work for and on what fleet. Starting out as a shiny new PPL/CPL you have no ida where you will end up. There is not such thing as 'the life of a commercial pilot'. The spectrum of possibilities is huge. It is also one reason why I changed airlines 8 times; as we'll as a couple going bust.

Pakehaboy
6th Jul 2016, 15:42
Stiglet quote" Tiredness is also often self induced or at least under an individual's control. It is up to everyone to take personal responsibility for their rest; you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot."

Obviously the ramblings of a mgt pilot or non pilot.I have just finished a 5 day with 2 of those days at 7.59 hrs(block)12.20(duty) on the back side of the clock,I never induced anything,and the pairing was certainly not under my control.Its what we do!!Its called flying in shatty weather,being at high levels of responsiveness,IMC approaches etc etc...I want to Chunder when I hear .."you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot"crap.Get a few hours under your belt sonny,work for shat airlines and a few of them,and then come back and tell Me I should have known what I was in for ,STREWTH!!! ,as the previous poster put it,GET REAL!

stiglet
6th Jul 2016, 17:02
Some of you are missing my point. I agree fatigue is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. And I agree it does happen. What I'm saying is don't use statements such as 'forcing them to work for 20 hours without an adequate break'; because I don't acceept that is correct. If I'm wrong go on prove it, show me the evidence of that roster. If you can't, management, the authorities and the public will just ignore you. And don't use fatigue as an excuse if you could/should have mitigated against it.

Pakehaboy
6th Jul 2016, 19:17
Stiglet,not sure what you do,but when you say it's a "serious issue" and "needs to be addressed",we've been addressing this issue for decades.Let me be the bearer of bad news,it's addressed by airlines and governing bodies who look at legalities,and what they can get away with,please don't sugarcoat it.

Your sentiments are in the right place,no doubt,I could post numerous rosters and pairings that are legal but very very stupid in there design.It satisfys companies from a "legal" point,it does not satisfy how we humans operate at various times.Easy to say it needs to addressed,the point is, it's not!!

Nothing personal mate,but you will find on this board many posters that fly grueling schedules,been there,done that.You talk of mgt and the public finding out about these practices ,REALLY??, the airlines have been exposed for years about scheduling issues,the result,Part 117 in the US.What a cockup that is.They say they care,but we know what pax and mgt want,we are not always in that equation hence the type of schedules one has to fly.

Personally,I've never favored strikes action,you generally lose more than you'll ever gain,but sometimes,you gotta give it a try,if the general consensus believe it's the only way to achieve an outcome,.....good luck to them...

framer
7th Jul 2016, 07:55
When it gets to the point that long serving, responsible and mature employees are walking around in a daze, getting grumpy at their spouses and kids, using their annual leave to recuperate at home so that they feel they can cope with facing the alarm clock again, constantly talking about how they can get to a point financially where they can change jobs and their families won't suffer, and openly talking about concerns for their long term health.......we have a problem. Not to mention the degraded performance that can be expected in high workload situations and how that impacts on the safety of the passengers.
The pilots know it, the sleep specialists know it, the wives know it, and management can't comprehend it because the roster report says you only did 180 hours duty in the whole month. All the people involved in making the rules, administering them, creating the rosters, choosing the number of pilots required to fit a schedule, conducting medical exams........none of them actually roll out of bed and do it, not for a year or a month or a week or a day. They are however highly motivated to get fewer pilots flying more hours offering cheaper tickets to a greater market share.

tubby linton
7th Jul 2016, 11:54
Well said Framer, welcome to EASA FTL.

RexBanner
7th Jul 2016, 12:16
Call me crazy. Call me paranoid or just call me a downright conspiracy theorist but the fact we can now do increased duty times from reports checking in before 06:00 local wouldn't be anything at all to do with the fact that many low cost airlines have schedules with rotations leaving at that kind of time in the morning, would it? Would it?!?

Uplinker
7th Jul 2016, 12:38
Tiredness is also often self induced or at least under an individual's control. It is up to everyone to take personal responsibility for their rest; you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot.


(my emphasis); I did know in the year 2000 when I started flying commercially. However, over the years, and particularly since EASA, things have changed. Our earliest flight now has a check-in time of 0345z. As RAT 5 says; good luck getting sufficient rest on a summers afternoon/evening before that duty! Sound from my neighbours etc is NOT under my control - I can't just turn them off - and nor are my own circadian rhythms under my control !!

(At my own expense, I have installed black-out blinds, extra sound proofing in my bedroom, and headphones on the telly downstairs for Mrs Uplinker).

Company's will tend to roster us and work us right up to the "legal" limits, since that will help maximise their profits and minimise their operating costs. But how many EASA officials and managers do you ever see flying a run of earlies? Ironic really considering that all airlines will state that they consider safety to be their first priority?

The pilot community should stand up to this erosion of safety and there is absolutely no shame in doing so.

In fact to be honest I think the travelling public would expect us to.
.

RexBanner
7th Jul 2016, 12:46
And it's not just dangerous whilst we're in the air. The other day I had an alarm call at around 05:00 local for a twelve hour day and am then faced with the prospect of negotiating a busy motorway whilst absolutely dog tired to then get home at the end of the duty. Where is the employer's duty of care there?

MrSnuggles
7th Jul 2016, 13:31
I'm sorry, stiglet, but your faith in peoples ability to see the future is amazing.
you should know what hours and lifestyle the job entailed before you started; if you are not suited you shouldn't have become a commercial pilot.

How the friggin hell are you supposed to know what will happen to you BEFORE you start working? Nobody has magic powers to see into the future and know beforehand what rules and regulations may or may not be in place when you actually go to work. This is just rubbish. Like tarot or whatever. Arghh.

Ancient Observer
7th Jul 2016, 13:35
Venting anger on here might be good for folk. I don't know. However, mass Chirping and MORsing might help a bit more. In the long run, if you want the beancounters to take note, then ONLY pilots can effectively strike. BALPA and IALPA do not create strikes. Feelings must be strong enough in your community.

ps123
7th Jul 2016, 14:12
Hi everyone. My name is Paula Slier, and I am an RT (Russia Today) reporter. After investigating the causes of the FlyDubai crash in March, we are really concerned about the welfare of pilots, and we want to help expose airline companies that systematically exploit their pilots by making them fly unreasonable and fatigue-inducing schedules, amongst other unfair practices. We are looking for people who are willing to talk to us about this issue. Anyone with information please contact me at [email protected]

Trossie
7th Jul 2016, 14:18
Paula, Could you post us details of the Russian Flight Time Limitations so that we could see what we could learn from them? (And while you're about it, a few statistics on Russian airline safety over the past 5 to 10 years?)

RAT 5
7th Jul 2016, 15:28
I was 'in the game' from 1980 until recently. FTL's in 4 different regimes before JAR. The arguments I read on hear about:
limits being targets, lack of common sense in rostering, vicious attitude by management, treatment of humans as machines, the manipulation of FTL's to suit the range of a/c, the manipulation of FTL's to suit the schedules of the expanding LoCo's, the lack of sympathy/understanding of management to the differences in individuals (owls & larks), the constant discussion about tiredness v fatigue and how you can not be fatigued because it's legal, how pilots are their own worst enemies in not saying no to stupid rosters, etc. etc.
It's like I went to sleep in the 80's & 90's and woke up last week listening to the same stories as if nothing had changed. Oh, and then I found out things had indeed become worse. Where the heck have the unions been all that missing time? When a strike happens on these issues it is too late. The pax have become used to the situation. They think that if they can be up and on time at 03.45 then so can the pilot. Daft, but true.

Uplinker
7th Jul 2016, 16:33
Hmmm, Perhaps I am being naive, (or have misunderstood the post), but I don't know why Trossie is being aggressive towards someone who purports to want to expose the issues?

I think we need some leadership on this problem, and who else but the Unions?

Companies know that not 100% of crew who are fatigued will put in a report, and yet they can point to the lack of reports and use it as 'proof' that "the crews are quite happy with the FTL's, and that the rosters are not fatiguing".

I always try to urge crews who feel fatigued to put in a report, but only the other week a CM said 'yes but that would show that we can't cope' which is the whole (bloody) point :rolleyes:

tubby linton
7th Jul 2016, 16:51
The Unite union made a video last year in association with the ETF saying how marvelous the new EASA FTL are .
ETF changed their stance on these FTL's at the last minute when they were originally being voted on in Europe.
https://youtu.be/ZGa9M_zqiwU

oceancrosser
7th Jul 2016, 17:42
When it gets to the point that long serving, responsible and mature employees are walking around in a daze, getting grumpy at their spouses and kids, using their annual leave to recuperate at home so that they feel they can cope with facing the alarm clock again, constantly talking about how they can get to a point financially where they can change jobs and their families won't suffer, and openly talking about concerns for their long term health.......we have a problem. Not to mention the degraded performance that can be expected in high workload situations and how that impacts on the safety of the passengers.
The pilots know it, the sleep specialists know it, the wives know it, and management can't comprehend it because the roster report says you only did 180 hours duty in the whole month. All the people involved in making the rules, administering them, creating the rosters, choosing the number of pilots required to fit a schedule, conducting medical exams........none of them actually roll out of bed and do it, not for a year or a month or a week or a day. They are however highly motivated to get fewer pilots flying more hours offering cheaper tickets to a greater market share.
Spot on Framer. Now on day 3 of my vacation I have yet to get out of the house and do something meaningful. Arriving from a long-haul flight on Monday, my total block hours YTD equal hours flown in the last 2 years in late September, same outfit, same flying, very short of pilots.
Add to that the fact that almost all my flights are as Line Instructor, and half the time I feel I do not have much to share with the trainee. I am just there.

MrSnuggles
7th Jul 2016, 18:03
(I recognise the name Paula Slier, I think I saw a report she made a few years ago, from South African flying perspective. Might not be a Russian troll actually!)

Crankshaft
7th Jul 2016, 19:43
20 hours is definitely possible...

Stiglet, Mr Angry and others... The article says "Work for 20 hours without rest". It does not say "20 hours FDP without rest".

My airline regularly have me working for 20 hours without rest. We would normally check in early for a 12-13 hours FDP, sometimes with the 1 hour planned extension. After the flight we are positioning by either train, taxi, flight (or a combination) to another city. Thus extending the total duty to around 20 hours. We will then check in to a hotel for a 20-26 hour rest period. That means going from either day duty to night duty or vice versa. Then we do the full thing once again...

While I agree that the last couple of hours is not a Flight Duty and thus not a safety issue in itself, it does have a very large effect on the long term fatigue. A duty cycle such as that takes me days to recover from. My sleep pattern gets disrupted and my intestinal rhythm gets disturbed. With small children at home it gets even more difficult to recover during your Off days. (But of course... Pilots should not have families)

RAT 5
7th Jul 2016, 21:23
My sleep pattern gets disrupted and my intestinal rhythm gets disturbed.

Absolutely true and yet given no credence. Been there & done that. Guess what; your intestinal rhythm gets disturbed so your sleep pattern gets disrupted so your ..............intest.....OMG. The downward spiral to an unhealthy life. But never mind, it's legal and you pass the medical. Quality of life, piss poor. And who creates it? Rostering. And what do they say when you complain? "it's not our fault; it's legal, there is no one else and are you refusing a duty?" That makes you mad; but never mind; all the RST training tells you not to fly if stressed out with close personal problems. So you phone the very people who have created your personal problem to say you are unfit for the next utterly anti-social knackering roster combination. Another head-banging downward spiral.
Then you meet a friend who works for a proper outfit who have roster bids and limits and guidelines and sensible rosters and friendly rosters, and you wonder how the heck did you ever end up if your hell-hole. And they produce just as much productivity as you do, but in a manageable manner.
So to those who say you should have known what you were getting into before you got into it.......don't be daft. It ain't like that at all. It is good luck or bad luck, but it shouldn't be that way.

Willy Miller
7th Jul 2016, 23:46
ok - all those using the "F" word - how many have gone fatigued, sent a fatigue report or an MOR in the last year? We are our own worst enemies, always trying to "get the job done" to do the best for our passengers.

Until we start bothering to report and accepting our own physical limitations and saying enough and walking off the aircraft then nothing will change - until a couple of accidents and the insurance companies take an interest.

STOP MOANING AND GET REPORTING!!

Slippery_Pete
8th Jul 2016, 01:24
Finally someone on his thread with a brain, Willy Miller!

You can bitch and moan all you like on here, and your employers will take ZERO notice.

If you're fatigued or tired or sleepy, then you shouldn't be in the air. Don't work - and start reporting it.

State in your report that you are sending a copy to EASA - and actually do it.

Sit around and bitch on PPrune - nothing happens.

EASA get hundreds of fatigue reports every day for months - something will change.

There's only one reason an operator rosters you to do things at or beyond the limit of human endurance - because you allow them to.

RAT 5
8th Jul 2016, 03:48
Indeed. Many years ago I was with a fledgling airline that rostered crazy combinations. It was impossible to achieve meaningful sleep between the flights. They also had the policy of being under-crewed (not enough SBY's) to save money, and expected/hoped crews would work a day off. Some misguided fools did so, regularly.
I received one such combination and set out my case to the chief pilot. He agreed with my argument that it was not good. I declared I would do one flight, but not both. I had given 5 days notice of this. The alternative was that, if I did not achieve sufficient sleep before the 2nd duty, I'd declare myself unfit 2 hours before departure. You choose. I was taken off the 2nd flight. My colleagues were amazed such a thing was possible. The floodgates opened.
There were other occasions where I stood firm when others wilted. Eventually things started to change. Indeed, action spoke louder than words.
They were short of crews and as a TC would have hurt to fire me. The subsequent court case would have been enlightening for the local CAA; so we made progress instead.

framer
8th Jul 2016, 08:30
ok - all those using the "F" word - how many have gone fatigued, sent a fatigue report or an MOR in the last year? We are our own worst enemies, always trying to "get the job done" to do the best for our passengers.
Good point Willy. I will be interested to hear any responses. I have called crewing twice in the last year and called fatigued therefore unable to do the next rostered duty. If I am honest I probably should have done it four times.

Trossie
8th Jul 2016, 13:09
This thread appears to have split into two groups: detached people pontificating and people actually doing it commenting on reality (like the last four posters).

Hmmm, Perhaps I am being naive, (or have misunderstood the post), but I don't know why Trossie is being aggressive towards someone who purports to want to expose the issues?

What I think is 'not on' is someone from a state sponsored media agency trying 'dig up the dirt' on an airline safety matter elsewhere when the state that is sponsoring that media outlet has had an appalling airline safety record itself. I would put it on an equivalent of a correspondent from the South African Broadcasting Corporation (and someone has posted a South African connection) trying to 'dig up the dirt' on a road safety issue in Britain with SA having its utterly appalling road safety record.

Back to the topic. The only people who can put things right are those who are getting pushed to being fatigued. The best that any unions can do is back up anyone who feels threatened when those people do put in reports. (Unite appears to be a union that has done everyone a huge disservice by falling for the EU's propaganda on this matter.) What we don't need is some journo using this to cause the travelling public to be whipped up into a fear of using the safest form of transport that exists.

Twiglet1
8th Jul 2016, 20:10
Call me crazy. Call me paranoid or just call me a downright conspiracy theorist but the fact we can now do increased duty times from reports checking in before 06:00 local wouldn't be anything at all to do with the fact that many low cost airlines have schedules with rotations leaving at that kind of time in the morning, would it? Would it?!?

Rex -no its because Sub Part Q has allowed this for many years primarily because in states such as Germany they need to depart early to squeeze in rotations and get back for the night jet ban. EASA limits are pretty much like SPQ for 0500-0800 then becomes a lot like CAP371 up the afternoon when it becomes more limiting in some cases, then back to CAP371 limits at night.

framer
8th Jul 2016, 21:33
no its because Sub Part Q has allowed this for many years primarily because in states such as Germany they need to depart early to squeeze in rotations and get back for the night jet ban. EASA limits are pretty much like SPQ for 0500-0800 then becomes a lot like CAP371 up the afternoon when it becomes more limiting in some cases, then back to CAP371 limits at night.
That is a great example of just how much the physiology of the human body features in the construction of our regulations.

RAT 5
9th Jul 2016, 11:00
to do with the fact that many low cost airlines have schedules with rotations leaving at that kind of time in the morning, would it?

Having worked in the industry since 70's I've seen the changes in FTL's and have the firm opinion that FTL's have altered to coordinate with a/c performance and technology.
Example. In 70's charter flying was in its infancy. It was still considered a privilege, but was getting cheaper and package holidays were new. Not everyone flitted off to Spain. A single out and back was considered a full working day of 7-8 hours. The early jets could only make it to the Med' anyway. The Canary islands were dots in the ocean and unknown and a/c didn't have the rage from N.Europe. Then more people wanted to fly on holiday and prices became important. Then came the double rotation out/back and the double 'W' pattern. One crew doing twice the work of before; but now the working day was 12 hours. Then came B732's and more range. Then came the Canary islands and the Greek islands, and departures from N.Europe. These were 10-12 hour days; but hey: then airports wanted night curfews so those in normal jobs could get some sleep. Next brilliant idea was to have the a/c flying at night instead of sitting on the ground. The 8hr night became 12hrs. But crews could not fly 5 nights, but had to work 5 days, they would have to have a slipping sleep pattern: start in the morning for 2 days and slowly get later until the end of the block had 2 night flights. Nicely tired for the last longest flight duty and then only 2-3 nights sleep to recover.
All caused by a/c flying longer ranges and pax wanting cheaper prices. FTL's had to accommodate the business model.
Then there was inter-continental. All scheduled flights for the better off. Demand was not so high, yet. B707, DC-8 & VC-10 were the a/c. They had 10hr ranges for N.Atlantic and Africa. If you wanted to go to Aus you bounced off Frankfurt, changed crews in Dubai/Bharain, changed again in Singapore and arrived 36 hours later in Sydney. The a/c couldn't do anymore and crews were working 10 hour duty legs.
Then came B747-200. It could do 13 hours. The days were longer and needed extra crew. So hey, Boeing were great guys and included the crew lounge/rest area in the upper deck. Then came the wise guys (accountants and marketing people) and weak unions. Hey presto, the upper deck became 1st class cocktail lounge. Then came -400 with no FE and a larger upper deck. The range increased considerably and extra crew were still needed, but they overflew the old crew-slip station. The bunk remained in the flight deck and the upper deck became a money making extra business class area. Cabin crew rest areas, if you had a good union, were included and were hot beds in some container down back, under the floor, nicely down wind of the engine noise. Never, ever was the upper deck used for what it was designed for. And hey, the FTL's had crept up so that now crew rest was not needed. A/c could then fly 14 hours so FTL's rose to match. More long-haul flights were at night so let's increase the night FTL's. Crews were compliant because they could enjoy 3 days on 'the beach', or 'shopping'. That was when there were only 2-3 flights each week. Then came the daily schedule and stop-overs reduced in days.
Now there are 16 hour a/c. Costs need to be kept down; crews kept to a minimum. And hey, there is even a shortage of muppets wanting the job. Productivity needs to be increased. All driven by a/c performance. And hey; technology, reliability and automatics have improved so much that the work-load of flying is much less and even 2 pilot a/c can now use 'controlled rest'. How long before the heavy crew is abandoned, the bunk removed, and controlled rest in the flight deck becomes the FTL of the day? Never say never. The FE's said that.
Managers look at profit and not the humane side of things. The only humans that matter are the fat walleted business & 1st class pax. Everything is geared for them. Keep prices down, services up. FTL's are a tool used in the profit game and the lobby of the airline owners is huge and strong; the XAA's are weak, pilots' unions also.
I have friends who fly a Europe - Far East route. They hate Far East. They fly double crew and have 3 days off to acclimatise before returning, and then have another minimum 4 days off to re-acclimatise and enjoy home; more likely 6 days off after a 6 day duty and <30hrs flying. Not very productive, 30 hrs in 12 days, but great for per diems. How soon before that is a 1 day turn-round with 2 extra days off at home?
There was talk of one EU operator that was considering flights to USA east coast. One crew flies out with the return crew resting in the back. A smart turnaround and the crews swap over. This would be a 16hr day. The return crew reports 15 mins before departure and flies only a single sector, for which there would be dispensation as they had 'controlled rest' immediately before their flight. It hasn't happened, yet, and may never, but the idea has been contemplated.
I've experienced many occasions where rosters, schedules, FTL's were manipulated for business reasons and XAA's had given dispensations. One major problem, and I don't know if EASA has this conflict of interest, is that XAA's were over-seers of safety compliance and financial survival of their airlines, who also paid the XXA's. Strict enforcement of ALL rules might impact negatively on some struggling operators. What to do? I thought the FAA had been exposed to this conflict and the responsibilities had been separated. Is that correct?
Meanwhile FTL's will continue to be flexible and malleable, pressurised by the airline lobby, until the crews say enough.
Where was ECA in the discussions with EASA. The stable door is open and the horse has bolted. The toothpaste is out of the tube and the eggs are broken.

rog747
9th Jul 2016, 11:25
i saw how fatigue is a factor on holiday charters and this quite a few years back - I worked in the mostly IT aviation sector since 1972 in ops control and traffic with abit of crewing now and again

a LGW-Dalaman- LGW charter scheduled to go out about 1940L with both FD crew on their roster where the previous trips had been 2 night flights and their first day a pre 0600 report a 3 sector flight LGW-MYK-ATH-LGW (with this DLM being the longest night)

the DLM flight was delayed for 2 hours due ATC and wx concerns of TS activity at DLM-
sure enough at DLM they had to hold for a while then suffered a GA

delayed again on departure out of DLM due TS then coming back to LGW due fog there and they came back into LGW about 9.30 next morning flying IMC

a/c on ILS drifted left of centre line on short final and PIC did not GA but applied some bank which scraped the RH wing tip on the concrete - it was a Mad Dog83 so the wings are low to the ground - most pax did not know about it

Mr Angry from Purley
13th Jul 2016, 12:37
rog747
Just goes to show this F word is nothing new. Or in your case above the S word (sleepiness -the need to sleep)

Fire and brimstone
21st Jul 2016, 08:28
Is there really a discussion to be had reference BALPA encouraging a strike over safety?

The day this happens on the subject of fatigue, I will give everyone on PPRUNE £100.

Unions: wonderful concept. BALPA going on strike - "smell the coffee".

Really!!

gcal
21st Jul 2016, 09:41
There used to be a saying at one very large American Airline that pilots would do anything for money.
It seems now they do everything, but the money questions isn't there anymore.