PDA

View Full Version : Road Tax unfairness.


Loose rivets
28th Jun 2016, 10:01
A car I rather like, a BMW 630, was registered after 23 Mar 2006. It is ONE GRAM per km into the threshold of 500 quid a year road tax. One, it seems, has to pay that for the life of the car. (plus budget fears of course.)

To me, this huge jump is blatantly unfair. By its very nature, this car is a drive on nice days hobby car, but there is of course no brownie points for occasional use.

This quirk at 2006 would have been welcome - if I'd not found a car I like a tad too young.

The next gripe is that a 730d Sport is in the lower band. A large car by English standards, but nevertheless, a big lump chewing up the road and belching its fumes for 200 quid a year less.

It's so obvious there should be rewards for leaving these toys in the garage and getting the bike out. A 10k a year maximum would suit me fine, while some folk are driving 130k miles a year for the same price.

I'm also mindful of what Brexit might do to the already overburdened motorist. "Sorry, we've decided to double yer road tax everyone" wouldn't surprise me.

Cynical, moi?

Sallyann1234
28th Jun 2016, 10:17
Isn't that a case of the regulations doing exactly what they were intended to do?

Wherever the tax limit is placed, there will always be a model one gram over the limit.

But I think you already knew that.

It's so obvious there should be rewards for leaving these toys in the garage and getting the bike out. There is! it's called SORN :)

PDR1
28th Jun 2016, 10:21
To me, this huge jump is blatantly unfair. By its very nature, this car is a drive on nice days hobby car, but there is of course no brownie points for occasional use.


Yes there are - you will pay less in fuel duty if you use it less. This saving will probably be far more than any difference in road tax will give you.


The next gripe is that a 730d Sport is in the lower band. A large car by English standards, but nevertheless, a big lump chewing up the road and belching its fumes for 200 quid a year less.


Because it has lower carbon emissions. DUH!


It's so obvious there should be rewards for leaving these toys in the garage and getting the bike out. A 10k a year maximum would suit me fine, while some folk are driving 130k miles a year for the same price.


1. There are rewards - you pay less fuel duty if you drive fewer miles and potentially have lower insurance costs if you sign up to a limited mileage deal.

2. For most of the people I know essentially 10,000 miles/yr is "normal" rather than "reduced" usage. Only zillionaires and people whose companies cover their costs do 130kmiles/yr in a gas-guzzler. 130k/yr is 250 miles per working day - that's big even for travelling salesmen.

So no real sympathy here...

PDR

Pontius Navigator
28th Jun 2016, 10:39
I proposed many years ago that road tax should be gathered on a per mile basis. The chancellor, Kenneth Clark, agreed with me and froze VED. The plus side, at the time, was foreign vehicles had to pay their share. The downside of course is the increased running costs for the UK transport industry.

The foreign vehicles got around the tax by fitting oversized tanks on their trucks. Some British hauliers followed suit and benefitted from regular cross-channel trade.

muppetofthenorth
28th Jun 2016, 10:39
By its very nature, this car is a drive on nice days hobby car

Is it? Says who?

Loose rivets
28th Jun 2016, 11:47
Well, sez me, really. The 630 is okay, but I found in my E-type days that I never had enough space for things like Christmas trees and fridge freezers. I wanted to be a young chap about town, but suddenly hoards of children needed conveying and supplying with stuff and more stuff. Mind you, the 630 is a lot bigger than a E. One forgets just how tiny they were.

Doh! Just emissions? Mmm . . . One is not that accepting of government figures. The megga machine I'm looking at now probably was less when it was made and plugged into a tester - but it is hard to believe the nifty lightweight 630 engine really pollutes more than the 730d. The sheer mass of the thing makes it have to work so hard to take itself somewhere - before anyone gets in it. :p The 275mm back tyres spend their days sucking up tarmac particles before CO2 particles are blasted out of the pipes. So much more work being done that the emissions figures just become hypothetical nonsense.

Yes, I made a mistake on typical working mileage. The 130k that stuck in my mind was a taxi driver who contracted to our airline for crew transport. (I only have his word for it and I remember feeling so sorry for his long working hours.) He grumbled that people not taking opportunities at junctions was his biggest problem. So, 150k with no holdups. :hmm:

G-CPTN
28th Jun 2016, 12:12
When I worked as a travelling engineer I managed 50,000 miles (80,000 km) per annum.
It was a struggle due to traffic congestion and the need to spend time at the customers.

A transport operation will struggle to exceed 500 miles per day due to driving regulations.
There are approximately 200 working days in a year - thus 160,000 km per annum maximum.

Loose rivets
28th Jun 2016, 12:16
The point I didn't make above, was the size of the jump.

A 40 quid jump and then only a 20 quid jump to my little 318ti. Okay, that's fine. But from 295, the next one is 500. But, registered before 23 Mar in 2006, it stays at 295. Talking late stage on a 630 when I found this out. 205 quid a year extra minimum, for the life of the car. I've started looking again. :-(

G-CPTN
28th Jun 2016, 12:23
The point I didn't make above, was the size of the jump.

A 40 quid jump and then only a 20 quid jump to my little 318ti. Okay, that's fine. But from 295, the next one is 500. But, registered before 23 Mar in 2006, it stays at 295. Talking late stage on a 630 when I found this out. 205 quid a year extra minimum, for the life of the car. I've started looking again. :-(
But the asking price will reflect the expenditure, Shirley?

AtomKraft
28th Jun 2016, 12:23
Road tax IS unfair.

If your car is a heavy polluter, then it will pollute in proportion to the amount it's used, therefore the 'penalty' tax should be in the fuel.


After all, even the heaviest polluting car can be quite 'green' if it hardly gets used.

rans6andrew
28th Jun 2016, 12:47
if what you are seeing now regarding the tax rates/emissions winds you up, you really don't want to see what they are doing with new car road tax from soon (I can't remember whether it comes in later this year or sometime next year). I overheard a dealer saying that it will be a lot for the first year or two and then fall to a flat rate around 120pa for the remaining life of the vehicle, even big fuel guzzling ones. Some of the car categories which are currently exempt will be required to pay road tax as well.

I have one of those 495pa road tax enthusiast's cars. On paper you would never keep it as I only use it for a couple of thousand miles a year (it has done 14k miles in 6 years) but when the road conditions are right and you plant your right foot it is worth every penny!

Incidentally, my everyday car is in the 285 road tax bracket, it only did 1200 miles last year. The joys of working at home. Sometimes I need to be visiting my employer with hardware to show off, sometimes I can send my work (software) by email. Last year was a software heavy year.

Allan Lupton
28th Jun 2016, 13:33
Road tax IS unfair.
If your car is a heavy polluter, then it will pollute in proportion to the amount it's used, therefore the 'penalty' tax should be in the fuel.
After all, even the heaviest polluting car can be quite 'green' if it hardly gets used.
It stems from the time when Mr. Brown (Gordon, not George) was Chancellor of the Exchequer and seemed not to understand the point that Fuel Duty (plus VAT on that Duty) resulted in the polluter paying. He therefore introduced the multiple rate VED (Road Tax) to our difficult taxation system, when a simple small increase in Fuel Duty would have had the same effect and cost nothing extra to collect.
Somehow I had hoped that, even with an innumerate politician in charge, the Civil Service would have seen the obvious simpler method and guided him there.

Pontius Navigator
28th Jun 2016, 13:40
I have one of those 495pa road tax enthusiast's cars.

Which of course is an indulgence.



Incidentally, my everyday car is in the 285 road tax bracket, it only did 1200 miles last year.

Which is when you need a careful look at Need. An appropriate hire car or taxi might make more economic sense and perhaps more low mileage users should consider that.

Personally we need two cars. A small one for local shopping and runs and a larger for long runs. We can only justify the cost of one. I estimated 8,000 miles a year but we do nearer 16k and frequently 3 up plus dog, luggage and loads. The compromise is a large estate.

Hussar 54
28th Jun 2016, 13:58
A transport operation will struggle to exceed 500 miles per day due to driving regulations. There are approximately 200 working days in a year - thus 160,000 km per annum maximum.


G-CPTN.

Maybe for the one-man-band Polish and Slovakian guys who buy a truck, get a mobile, and then hit the road for a couple of months before their next visit home.

Some of the big operators ( DHL, Stobart, K+N etc ) have their trucks on the go 24 hours per day....Bit like airlines really - three crews per unit...Hitch the trailer, 200 miles down the motorway / autoroute / autobahn, 30 minutes to unhitch the full one and hitch a new full or empty one, 200 miles back up the motorway....Stir and recycle, 24 hours per day, 360+ days per year....

I've seen trucks in Germany that are doing well over 350,000 kms per year, every year....Logisitics these days for the big manufacturers and department stores is a very, very slick business model.

Peter-RB
28th Jun 2016, 14:30
I had a small fleet of Artics 38t then up to 40t doing round trips to the Cologne area twice a week(fully legal) we had turn round trailers waiting in Cologne and fuel taken on board there as well, hence cheaper that the UK and ready loaded trailers, speeded up the job at both end,s..the slow section was the UK side due to stuffed Motorways, Ministry and plods doing their thing, the Belgium/Germany side was like an express train, only stopped if doing something silly or breakdown/puncture. Wagon fleet were Renault R class ( the old Transcontinental for those in the know) 8 MPG and motorway(Autobahn) almost clear roads ..compared with the UK , Renault had a system called Renault Recovery, as long as you gave them clear markers as to your location they guaranteed 45/60 min to any sort of call out totally FOC unless accident damage.. Good days long hours plenty Duty free on the Ferry's :ok:

Shaggy Sheep Driver
28th Jun 2016, 14:56
Why are some cars zero-rated for 'road tax' while a little Honda 50 (about 2 bhp) pays it? No car can be as environmentally friendly as a 2 bhp bike.

And when Gordon (spit) Brown introduced his much higher rates, he made it retrospective - if you already owned a car in that came into his higher bracket, you paid the higher price. I can understand the logic of applying it to new purchased cars only, to guide people to choose 'cleaner' cars, but if you already owned the car what were you supposed to do? Sell it?

That convinced me that all this 'green tax' is really nothing to do with the environment. It's just extra revenue for HMG.

RedhillPhil
28th Jun 2016, 15:00
Never mind about cars and the like, what about all of those smoke belching motor mowers - ride-on or otherwise?

rans6andrew
28th Jun 2016, 15:01
I doubt that a hire car or taxi would be a good idea for the "every day" car duty. I can just imagine a taxi driver's response if I suggest taking garden rubbish to the local tip or carrying me with my wet boat sails and wet gear after sailing on a Sunday or towing the dinghy trailer to the sailing club or going down the track to the airfield loaded up with the jerry cans and fuel pump etc. The super car would also be inappropriate for these tasks.

G-CPTN
28th Jun 2016, 15:05
I can understand the logic of applying it to new purchased cars only, to guide people to choose 'cleaner' cars, but if you already owned the car what were you supposed to do? Sell it?

That convinced me that all this 'green tax' is really nothing to do with the environment. It's just extra revenue for HMG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_Fund

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_Fund#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_Fund#Winding_up

ShyTorque
28th Jun 2016, 15:10
I own a one litre car dating back to 2000. The very same cars, if registered in or after 2002, were placed in a lower vehicle tax band. By being environmentally friendly and not buying a new car, I'm penalised.

Loose rivets
28th Jun 2016, 15:39
with breaks this was written during the above posts.

I assume the new tax rates will be for new cars and there will be no retrospective reduction in existing cars . . . will there?

Personally we need two cars. A small one for local shopping and runs and a larger for long runs.

That makes a lot of sense since one car can stand in while the other is serviced.

My gripe is, living alone for the first time in nearly half a century I could well have my little 318ti for fun and a comfy car for seeing the kids in London. My insurers will not allow more than 5% on the second car despite not being able to drive them at the same time.

Tee hee. The Rivetess is out today getting her first MOT done. Her Fusion needs a little work - the kind of work that's she'd just tell me about in the past knowing all she'd have to do would be to block the children's and later the grandchildren's ears to fend off the occasional cussing. I won't ask what the bill comes to. (that means I don't dare ask.)

Just been talking to the vendor of the 730d. Such a nice bloke and an astonishing car, though the sport is surprisingly hard on the road for a limmo sized vehicle.

ShyTorque
28th Jun 2016, 15:56
There is! it's called SORN :)


The new rules regarding SORN/ the non-transferability of vehicle tax when buying and selling a vehicle are another crafty con by DVLA.

Every time a sale takes place, the VED now has to be removed from a vehicle for a refund and DVLA effectively confiscate any tax already paid for a non-complete month. Similarly, the new owner loses a non-complete month off his new VED, unless the vehicle is taxed on the first of the next month.

Effectively, the vehicle has to be "double taxed" for up to a month each time it is transferred to a new owner.

This must have netted millions for the DVLA.

Sallyann1234
28th Jun 2016, 16:07
The whole thing is a badly organised scam, and that's without considering the should buy diesel /shouldn't buy diesel business.

NorthernChappie
28th Jun 2016, 16:07
Just MOT'd our third car - did 900 miles last year. Jeez that's 26p per mile just for road tax.(Anyone want an 8 yo MX5 leccie roof sportster by the way...what's that...no dear not trying to sell your car again).

Gertrude the Wombat
28th Jun 2016, 18:33
Anybody who can afford a "hobby car" can afford to contribute a tiny amount of extra tax FFS.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
28th Jun 2016, 19:07
And VED doesn't penalise pollution, only Co2 emissions. Filthy diesels which emit cancer-causing particulates are not penalised - some pay zero VED.

Modern diesels with particulate filters are actually more dangerous to human health than the 'old smokers'. The particulates from modern engines are extremely fine due to more efficient cylinder combustion, so quite a lot passes through the filter into the atmosphere. Follow a modern diesel on a motorbike and you soon get them in the back of your throat. Very unpleasant.

They are very fine so they pass easily down the nasal passage and deep into the fine tubes in the lung where they accumulate.

VED is 'ticking the CO2 box' in penalising petrol cars. If it was serious about cutting car exhaust pollution every diesel would carry a massive VED loading.

ZOOKER
28th Jun 2016, 19:28
But what about Diesel locomotives, or ships?

Gertrude the Wombat
28th Jun 2016, 19:34
And VED doesn't penalise pollution, only Co2 emissions. Filthy diesels which emit cancer-causing particulates are not penalised - some pay zero VED.
Now here there is some concept of "fairness". We all bought diesels because the government told us to because they were green - there shouldn't be a retrospective tax because someone changed their mind.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
28th Jun 2016, 19:47
Yes there should. The gov got it wrong. It needs to be put right.

Brown suddenly slapped a massive CO2 VED increase on certain cars retrospectively. So there's a precedent.

Locomotives and ships don't cause the very harmful extremely fine particulates that modern diesel car engines do. And you don't find yourself next to them or behind them in the high st.

PDR1
28th Jun 2016, 20:08
Obviously the answer is to put a 1,200/yr VED on motorbikes so that their owners are encouraged to drive cars with cabin air filters like proper people, instead of riding within inches of car exhaust pipes and whinging about the fumes.

PDR

Shaggy Sheep Driver
28th Jun 2016, 20:20
Au contraire. Motorcycles should be VED free as they don't cause traffic congestion, and their wear and tear on the highway infrastructure is so tiny as to be unmeasurable.

And don't think your car's pollen filter will protect you from particulates - it isn't even as fine as the polluter's particulate filter so the particles pass right through as if it wasn't there, and accumulate inside the cabin of the car getting more and more concentrated.

This doesn't, of course, happen with motorcycles.

ShyTorque
28th Jun 2016, 20:23
Diesels... Green? I lived abroad in the mid 90s, under a UK government. They were strongly encouraging all drivers to change from diesels to petrol, to reduce air pollution.

In the late nineties, I moved back to UK. The Government were encouraging all drivers to change from petrol to diesel, to reduce air pollution.

It's politics, not pollution.

Pontius Navigator
28th Jun 2016, 21:03
Ran6Andrews, I said consider not should. In our neck of the woods a fair number use mobility scooters or electric bikes and trikes, ideal for a 2 mile round trip.

Pontius Navigator
28th Jun 2016, 21:08
But what about Diesel locomotives, or ships?
Nephew's job is dealing with ship's diesels and ensuring clean burn. Contrary to what SSS said you don't find many in the High Street.

PDR1
28th Jun 2016, 21:15
Nephew's job is dealing with ship's diesels and ensuring clean burn. Contrary to what SSS said you don't find many in the High Street.

Pah - have you not seen the movie 2012?!

PDR

Pontius Navigator
28th Jun 2016, 21:52
No, but I remember the movie with the Seabourne cruise ship running ashore.

gemma10
28th Jun 2016, 22:09
Used to own a 530d bmw on an 09 reg and paid 280 a year tax. I now own a 14 reg 530d and pay 235 a year. Same engine, same emmisions and whilst the chancellor had increased revenues my tax actually decreased. Why? God knows I`m not complaining, but on the other hand I used to be a Saab man, loved em to bits and had several. But the petrol engine Aero was taxed at 465 for a 2.3L motor with far less pollutants than a diesel. Logical -Pah. I seem to remember someone putting forward an argument for including road tax within the fuel, which would benefit low mileage users, but was pooh poohed as just another tax on fuel.

vapilot2004
28th Jun 2016, 22:09
LR, I see not a lot of sympathy for you here. Just a shade over is a bummer and I can relate. My father was a notch baby, and as such, lost out on some government social security money.

Diesels... Green? I lived abroad in the mid 90s, under a UK government. They were strongly encouraging all drivers to change from diesels to petrol, to reduce air pollution.


I've never understood the love for diesel powered cars. Somebody, somewhere got it wrong on their emissions compared to gasoline powered automobiles, and that is a mystery.

ShyTorque
28th Jun 2016, 22:14
At least with tax on fuel you can choose whether or not to buy it.

ShyTorque
28th Jun 2016, 22:18
Maybe diesels were perceived to be less polluting because of the less demanding way in which they were tested. i.e. easier to fiddle, as some manufacturers found....

vapilot2004
28th Jun 2016, 22:27
Here in the states, there was an attempt to sell the public on something called 'clean coal'.

RedhillPhil
28th Jun 2016, 23:26
But what about Diesel locomotives, or ships?


Dunno about ships but diesel locomotives are having to run within tighter emissions nowadays.

Loose rivets
29th Jun 2016, 09:01
LR, I see not a lot of sympathy for you here.

Huh! If there's anything I've learned in this life it's that looking for sympathy gets you a poke in the eye. :ouch:

The thing is, old folk get left behind but they shouldn't be dragged into new financial realities that cause them to live like paupers. There's a couple in the Rivetess' new complex that drive all over the country. They are in their nineties. Shame on any society that causes them to be prisoners because of other people's greed.

In the States? Mmm . . . way down south Texas, they didn't have emissions control but my man was proud of his vacuum tester for the fuel tank.

$12.50, and "DON'T TELL ME IT NEEDS WINDSHIELD WIPERS!" Yes, I was kind of smiley-shouting.

chevvron
29th Jun 2016, 09:13
VEL prices are based on CO2 emissions when it's CO emissions that are more harmful.
Petrol engine emissions of CO can kill you but diesels emit hardly any CO; even if you idled a diesel engine in a closed garage, the emissions would not kill you whereas a petrol engine in the same environment certainly would (and has, many times)

G-CPTN
29th Jun 2016, 09:41
VEL prices are based on CO2 emissions when it's CO emissions that are more harmful.
Petrol engine emissions of CO can kill you but diesels emit hardly any CO; even if you idled a diesel engine in a closed garage, the emissions would not kill you whereas a petrol engine in the same environment certainly would (and has, many times)
I was under the impression that catalytic converters had removed the dangerous CO element of exhaust discharge - though, of course, CO2 is pretty deadly when it is all you have to breathe.

PDR1
29th Jun 2016, 10:45
Of course all airliners run on diesel, so obviously there should be an additional 25,000 VED levy for ATPLs...

:0)

PDR

Shaggy Sheep Driver
29th Jun 2016, 11:30
Dunno about ships but diesel locomotives are having to run within tighter emissions nowadays.

Indeed they are, which has led to unintended consequences. The manufacturers are having difficulty producing a diesel loco within the restricted UK loading gauge which meets the latest emissions regs. So the rail freight companies are digging out lots of old semi-scrap 1960s diesels and refurbishing them!

Two class 37s from the Churnet Valley Railway which were quietly rotting in Cheddleton sidings were purchased by such an operator some time ago. Only now are they nearing fitness to run in service, such was the amount of work required on them.

Pontius Navigator
29th Jun 2016, 11:40
Chevron, it was my understanding that CO2 was limited as it was a greenhouse gas. Diesels OTOH emit a noxious gas, NOx which, like CO, is hazardous to health.

In other words one hazards the climate and the other health and both give Government the potential to levy an additional tax.

vapilot2004
29th Jun 2016, 23:00
The thing is, old folk get left behind but they shouldn't be dragged into new financial realities that cause them to live like paupers. There's a couple in the Rivetess' new complex that drive all over the country. They are in their nineties. Shame on any society that causes them to be prisoners because of other people's greed.

I so agree LR. It always warms the heart and soul to see an older couple, still together, still traveling.

radeng
30th Jun 2016, 12:05
How old does a car have to be before there is no VED? Lay the expensive car up for a years until it meets the criteria?

One reason for keeping VED and not raising the duty on fuel is the fact that you would have a lot of unemployed people at the DVLA........

G-CPTN
30th Jun 2016, 12:16
Vehicles made before 1 January 1976 are exempt.

When the exemption was introduced it was a rolling 25 years, but this was subsequently halted.

Classic car enthusiasts call for 25 year rolling road tax exemption (http://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/classic-car-enthusiasts-call-for-25-year-rolling-road-tax-exemption).