View Full Version : Driverless pushback tugs
jparnold
24th Jun 2016, 02:51
Just arrived home on a Virgin B737-800 at Sydney.
Before disembarking I was watching the aircraft at the next gate - also a B737-800. The pushback tug was attached to the port landing gear NOT the nosewheel AND it did not have a driver. The ground crew person (with comms cable attached to the aircraft) followed the aircraft by foot and at the end of the pushback he unplugged his comms cable from the aircraft and then went to the tug, climbed in and manually drove it away.
I have never seen this before.
How long have remote controlled tugs been used?
Also is it only Virgin who use the rear door to embark/disembark the passengers in the rear of the aircraft instead of via the airbridge? Not so easy climbing the stairs with unchecked luggage.
Thanks
morno
24th Jun 2016, 04:06
How long have remote controlled tugs been used?
Several years
Also is it only Virgin who use the rear door to embark/disembark the passengers in the rear of the aircraft instead of via the airbridge? Not so easy climbing the stairs with unchecked luggage.
No, pretty much every other airline. I think even Qantas did a trial for a bit, not sure how that went.
But of course if your carry on luggage was the correct weight and dimensions it wouldn't be a problem, right? ;-)
morno
JQ use the remote-control main gear tugs too.
I think even Qantas did a trial for a bit, not sure how that went.
They're still doing it at least sometimes – boarded a flight out of ADL via the rear a few months ago.
Icarus2001
24th Jun 2016, 07:13
PS. Port and starboard is for maritime use. ;)
Capn Bloggs
24th Jun 2016, 07:35
Oh yes, the left main. Which way were you facing again?
Plenty of port left in the bottle.... No wait, Port was the right bottle, no hang on I've got this... No port was in the bottle, right?
Capn Bloggs
24th Jun 2016, 10:27
A little red port left up the bottle! :ok:
Reminds me of an incident a few years back where the driverless operator was wondering why his aeroplane wasn't moving; he was using the wrong controller, or some such. The aeroplane that did move had it's door ripped off by the aerobridge!
Bloggs. JQ I think.
QF regularly using rear door for 737 ops weather permitting.
Capn Bloggs
24th Jun 2016, 10:47
QF regularly using rear door for 737 ops weather permitting.
Pretty cruel at (the new) ADL though! :{
Pretty cruel everywhere in my opinion but they reckon it got them the equivalent of 2 airframes for zero cost so that's decent money.
Ken Borough
24th Jun 2016, 13:26
they reckon it got them the equivalent of 2 airframes for zero cost
How does that work? It may be possible to shave ten minutes from a turnaround. The total time saved may equate to two fleet units but is that time realisable? For example, if one B738 has 8 t/rounds a day, that's 80 minutes saved but can that time be profitably used, bearing in mind that 7 hours a day are 'lost' by virtue of curfews in Sydney and Adelaide. I'd like to see the logical explanation.
jparnold
24th Jun 2016, 23:42
But of course if your carry on luggage was the correct weight and dimensions it wouldn't be a problem, right? ;-)
Well the carry on was under 7kgs and no problem for me but my 67 year old wife struggled boarding and as a matter of fact the cabin crew suggested that during disembarkation that she waited until most passengers had departed and then use the front. I don't think that she would be the only passenger who would have some difficulty!
It's been a while since we flew internally. We usually fly internationally.
ALSO the tug/tractor was attached to the 'LEFT' MAIN undercarriage (not the nosewheel so maybe the pilot was 'steering' during pushback instead of it being controlled by the tractor driver) and BEHIND it so it PULLED not PUSHED.
Sorry about using 'port'. Maybe that's why I'm only a flight simmer and not a pilot :ugh: And I'll drink to that!
aerostatic
25th Jun 2016, 02:33
Driverless tugs been used in NZ since at least 2003 on the AKL domestic apron.
For example, if one B738 has 8 t/rounds a day, that's 80 minutes saved but can that time be profitably used....
Apparently so. There are circa 60 737s flogging around in mainline. If by using this only half of them can do an extra sector that's still 30 additional sectors a day- nearly 4 aeroplanes. Even if only 1 in 4 get an extra sector that's still 15 sectors or nearly two airframes.
Old 'Un
25th Jun 2016, 09:20
Aerostatic Yep, driverless units were used in NZCH some time ago. Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing any around lately. Don't get to see that part of the operation much these days, but have seen staffed units used to push back both ANZ & J* Airbusses on my recent rare visits.
Le Vieux
Captain Dart
25th Jun 2016, 10:15
jparnold, no need to apologise! I have been in military and airline aviation for forty years and have always used 'port' and 'starboard' where possible. We are also 'pilots', and we 'navigate'.
Those of a certain age may remember the British Kegworth crash where a 737 crew shut down the wrong engine partially because cabin crew got left and right mixed up when reporting symptoms.
Port is always port. Starboard is always starboard. But left and right can depend which way you are facing.
Kranky
25th Jun 2016, 13:21
Have I been asleep for years or what.
These battery push backs have been around for at least 7 years I reckon.
These units clap onto the main gear, how about we say in the case of an A320 or a 737, behind No 1 engine and drive the main gear wheels to provide thrust.
During pushback, the engineer on the ground, via headsets, directs the pilot which way to steer so no need for steering pass pin.
When at the desired pushback stop the engineer, via remote control, commands the tug to disengage from the main gear, which it does and then powers it back to the bay.
The engineer then departs the A/C as per usual.
Simple.
And don't start me on the carry on baggage. It's a joke what is allowed to be taken on board these days.
megan
25th Jun 2016, 14:14
Port and starboard is for maritime useGawd, the level of knowledge in the aviation community has sunk to all time lows. :) (See what I did? Made reference to a nauticalism - new word.)
Traffic_Is_Er_Was
25th Jun 2016, 15:09
Those of a certain age may remember the British Kegworth crash where a 737 crew shut down the wrong engine partially because cabin crew got left and right mixed up when reporting symptoms.
I'm pretty sure it was the guys in the front two seats who got their left and right mixed up in that one. The cabin crew's "mistake" was not to query them.
Offchocks
25th Jun 2016, 18:23
During pushback, the engineer on the ground, via headsets, directs the pilot which way to steer so no need for steering pass pin.
I was flying domestic when JQ started to use driverless tugs. I was led to believe then that it was due to cost, partially due to the operator did not have to be an engineer. Was that correct or have things changed?
"... at least 7 years"
Try 17. I was using them in 1999.
jparnold
25th Jun 2016, 23:20
Just for (my) interest
When are engine normally started, during pushback or after pushback? Does that vary with aircraft size?
I noticed that the first engine was started during pushback (B738) and I think that I remember that when flying internationally (larger aircraft) that the first engine doesn't usually get started until after pushback. Once again is this to reduce 'turn around time' - surely not.
Lastly I found (by accident) a video clip on YouTube of a person walking past a running jet engine (on a civilian aircraft) and being sucked into the engine. Is that a beat up or has it actually happened as I would imagine that the engines were just idling. I know it has happened onboard aircraft carriers when engines are run up to full before takeoff and there are personnel close to the aircraft.
600ft-lb
26th Jun 2016, 07:53
I was flying domestic when JQ started to use driverless tugs. I was led to believe then that it was due to cost, partially due to the operator did not have to be an engineer. Was that correct or have things changed?
It's only Qantas these days using engineers on headsets.. *generally*.
It may be a false economy at Qantas as there is enough ramp staff around to drive a pushback tug so I'm not sure implementing them would be a cost saving. A greenfield operation where everything was starting from scratch it may be worthwhile like Jetstar and Virgin. In Qantas I can imagine it causing a few IR issues.
CurtainTwitcher
26th Jun 2016, 08:17
jparnold, it's no urban legand, the threat is serious and real: Preventing
Engine Ingestion Injuries When Working Near Airplanes (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_3_08/pdfs/AERO_Q308_article4.pdf)
When are engine normally started, during pushback or after pushback? Does that vary with aircraft size?
It varies with airport requirements. Some allow an engine start on push, other airports have restrictions. Sometimes this is gate specific at the airport too.
Depending on aircraft weight and strength of the tug sometimes an engineer may request you hold the start and N til completion of the push or for 4 engined aircraft no more than two started on push with remainder on completion of the push.
Icarus2001
26th Jun 2016, 11:43
I have been in military and airline aviation for forty years and have always used 'port' and 'starboard' where possible.
Why would I care "what you have always used"?
Show me an AFM, AOM, ACM AMM or anything from the last twenty years in Australian aviation that uses port and starboard and not left and right.
Port is always port. Starboard is always starboard. But left and right can depend which way you are facing.
No, the left wing, left nav light and left main wheel remain so regardless of my orientation. (not that orientation)
Gawd, the level of knowledge in the aviation community has sunk to all time lows.
I am well aware of the history but see above. Nice pun though.
Capn Bloggs
26th Jun 2016, 14:04
Geez Iccy, you need to take a chill pill! Getting a bit stroppy in your old age, methinks...
jparnold
26th Jun 2016, 21:43
What have I started:=
megan
27th Jun 2016, 07:03
Show me an AFM, AOM, ACM AMM or anything from the last twenty years in Australian aviation that uses port and starboard and not left and rightThe US and UK authorities use the terms port/starboard, haven't checked Oz. Don't know about Boeing manuals, but the company certainly uses the terms in various articles it produces. The TCDS of various aircraft use the terms, and require placards in those terms ie fuel selector, port tank/starboard tank.
Captain Dart
27th Jun 2016, 07:22
OK, you just keep using 'left' and 'right' in your 'plane', Iccy!
AU-501
27th Jun 2016, 21:19
20 years ++
Derfred
29th Jun 2016, 13:11
Cabin crew getting their aircraft left and right muddled?
Cabin crew state which side of the aircraft they are on every time they pick up the phone. "Left 2, Tracey". They even do this from the remarkably difficult orientation of rear facing jump seats. I find it pretty hard to believe any cabin crew anywhere in the world would confuse the left and right side of the aircraft.
However, I'd be guessing that a percentage of them would have a bit of trouble with port and starboard.
underfire
30th Jun 2016, 01:07
There is a company that makes a motorized front gear with internal and external controls. The ac can be backed out with a ground remote, then can taxi using the electric motor rather than the engines.
Seems like a pretty good idea, and it really doesnt weigh much, not sure why it isnt widely used, especially for freighters like FedEx.
"Together with a powerful team of partners Lufthansa Technik successfully tested a new way of ground operations: electric motors installed on an Airbus A320 aircraft was subject to close scrutiny during one week. For the first time ever electric motors were installed on the main landing gear of a commercial aircraft taking over all necessary movements of an aircraft on ground. L-3 Communications, Fraport, as well as Lufthansa German Airlines and Lufthansa Technik, with Airbus support, teamed up to jointly test the technology demonstrator which might lead to a new way for aircraft to taxi."
https://youtu.be/puJ7DaXu0K8
Di_Vosh
30th Jun 2016, 01:40
Port, Starboard, Left, Right...
It's simple:
Port is Left.
If there are two sides to an aircraft and Port is one of them; that means there is only one side left.
Starboard is left.
DIVOSH!
Derfred
30th Jun 2016, 03:46
There's plenty of port... Right there in the bottle! :O
Captain Dart
30th Jun 2016, 11:26
'There's some red port left'. That also covers the nav light.
megan
30th Jun 2016, 13:09
There's plenty of port... Right there in the bottle!But do you know the etiquette of passing the port?
Chris2303
1st Jul 2016, 04:20
Doesn't get passed me.
Once I get it I keep it!
Capn Bloggs
1st Jul 2016, 04:23
Doesn't get passed me.
Too much port there!
roger6
7th Jul 2016, 06:05
I seem to remember some time back (at Sydney) that the crew requested the ground staff to commence push back and that nothing happened - to them at least. However the aircraft several bays away (that was boarding at the time) started to move back. It took a fairly short time to realise that the remotes were mixed up. Unfortunately there was some damage to the forward pax door on the pushed back aircraft -plus lots of red faces.
Correct me if I am wrong.