Qantas DC-4 Crewing Questions

[Stationair8]

When Qantas operated the DC-4 to Norfolk Island, did they carry a navigator?


If one joined Qantas in that period as new pilot, could you be assigned to the DC-4 instead of going onto the B707?


Did the DC-4 do any other flying apart from the Norfolk Island service?

[aroa]

Port Moresby was another QANTAS destination, if memory serves.

Not sure on the crew bit. Capt, FO, Flight Engineer ? R/op/ Nav ?

Q also ran Otter and Catalina in PNG.

[Ascend Charlie]

Yes, according to my father's log book, in 1951 the DC-4 was the step between the Lancastrian and the Constellation. He did many runs:
SY-DN-POB - KALL (but I don't know where POB is, most likely in Indonesia, Philippines or Malaysia, and KALL is anybody's guess)
SY-DN was 9:20 and DN- POB was 8:15, so draw a circle with a compass to see where it might be. POB-KALL was a further 3hrs. From Singapore, POB was 2:50

He also flew it to MIA (Manila?) and Iwakuni in Japan.

Perhaps the 4 was relegated to the island runs once the Connie started the longer hauls?

[Centaurus]

When Qantas operated the DC-4 to Norfolk Island, did they carry a navigator?



From memory I think all Qantas captains in those days had to have a flight navigators licence. But `real` navigators were also used. Whether or not that applied to Norfolk Island I don't know.

[Stanwell]

For what it's worth, Qantas DC4, VH-EDA, on the final Norfolk Island run on 27.2.77, had four flight-deck crew and four cabin crew.

[cowl flaps]

From memory I think all Qantas captains in those days had to have a flight navigators licence.

Maybe because, in those days they were true airmen, not 'appliance operators'.

[Ascend Charlie]

Probably correct, Dad had his own sextant and knew how to operate it.

[Fantome]

Nobody knew better than PG Taylor how to get and plot a star fix . . ..
Rick Searle in his recent THE MAN WHO SAVED SMITHY quotes the great navigator on the subject of astro nav from several of his own . . Taylor's… books . .such as FRIGATE BIRD.

(IN 1963 I visited him at Bayview on the shores of Pittwater on Sydney's northern outskirts to ask him to sign four of his books. Must have caught him at a bad time as he was decidedly gruff and not one bit friendly.
His daughter Gai tells me that daddy always used a fountain pen filled with ink of his preferred colour - aquamarine. I can testify to the truth of that. )

Back on topic . . .. Qantas's youngest post-war captain was Warwick Tainton..he had hardly joined the company from his period of cadetship when he saw a command vacancy posted for the DC-4. Thinking he'd not stand a snow drop's chance he nevertheless bidded and lo and behold no one senior to Warwick had either seen the notice or wanted that position.

Warwick flew the last revenue service Sydney-Norfolk Island in 1977. Fantastic that this old girl is still in service 74 years on.

VH-EBN. Douglas C-54A-1-DO. c/n 7458. Was also registered as: VH-EDB.

Rolled off the Douglas production line at Santa Monica - December 1943
Constructed as a Douglas C-54A-1-DO
Delivered to the United States Army Air Force - January 06, 1944
Allocated the U. S. serial number 42-107439
Sold to Reconstruction Finance Corp - November 13, 1945
Entered onto the United States Aircraft Register as NC90414 - ?
Sold to American Airlines Inc by Republic Aviation - April 08, 1946
Aircraft was named 'Flagship America'
Sold to Aircraft Sales Ltd, Los Angeles - April 02, 1949
Sold to Qantas Airways - July 09, 1949
Arrived Sydney on delivery to Qantas - July 14, 1949
Entered onto the Australian Aircraft Register as VH-EBN - July 18, 1949
Registered to Qantas Empire Airways Ltd
Aircraft was named 'New Guinea Trader'
Cancelled from the United States Aircraft Register - July 21, 1949
Entered service with Qantas - November 14, 1949
Aircraft was substancially damaged whilst landing at Norfolk Island - December 09, 1956
Struck earth embankment short of runway threshold on flair-out
Extensive damage to aircraft's centre section but repaired on site and returned to service
Leased to Malayan Airways - September 10, 1958
Cancelled from the Australian Aircraft Register - September 10, 1958
Entered onto the Malayan Aircraft Register as VR-SEA - September 10, 1958
Whilst leased to Malayan aircraft was named 'Albatross'
Returned to Qantas on termination of lease - April 1960
Entered onto the Australian Aircraft Register as VH-EBN - April 11, 1960
Registered to Qantas Empire Airways Ltd
Reregistered as VH-EDB - July 1961
Aircraft was named 'Pacific Trader' but later changed to 'Norfolk Trader' in 1961
Fitted with long range fuel tanks by Hawker de Havilland at Sydney (Bankstown) Airport - April 1963
Leased to Airlines of N.S.W. - August 05, 1963
Used on services to Casino, Coffs Harbour, Cooma and Wagga Wagga
Returned to Qantas on termination of lease - September 12, 1963
Chartered by Trans Australia Airlines - April 19 - 25, 1973
Operated last revenue service Norfolk Island - Sydney as QF437 (Captain W. B. Tainton) - February 19, 1977
Withdrawn from service and stored at Sydney - February 28, 1977
Aircraft had flown 59,881 hours with 10,632 landings
Sold to Air Express, Melbourne - August 1977
Registered to Air Express Ltd - August 19, 1977
Accepted by Air Express at Sydney - August 22, 1977
Aircraft was named 'Tasmanian Tiger'
Departed Sydney on ferry flight to Melbourne (Essendon) Airport - August 22, 1977
Operated final Air Express service - Melbourne (Essendon) - Launceston - Melbourne (Essendon) - August 17, 1979
Placed in open storage at Melbourne Airport having flown approximately 61,000 hours with 11,254 landings
Sold to Basler Flight Services Inc - January 21, 1980
Entered onto the United States Aircraft Register as N5581T - ?
Aircraft was incorrectly painted as 'N5581S' prior to departing on ferry flight to the United States
Cancelled from the Australian Aircraft Register - January 22, 1980
Departed Melbourne on ferry flight routing via Brisbane - Nadi - Honolulu - March 09, 1980
Sold to Calm Air International - March 1982
Entered onto the Canadian Aircraft Register as C-GPSH - March 1982
Sold to Basler Flight Services Inc - April 1984
Cancelled from the Canadian Aircraft Register - April 02, 1984
Entered onto the United States Aircraft Register as N5581T - April 02, 1984
Withdrawn from service and stored at Oshkosh - 1985
Sold to Soundair Corporation, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada - August 1986
Entered onto the Canadian Aircraft Register as C-GPSH - August 13, 1986
Cancelled from the Canadian Aircraft Register - August 03, 1990
Entered onto the United States Aircraft Register as N7171H - August 10, 1990
Registered to Ernst and Young Inc
Sold to International Airline Support Group, Miami, Florida - December 1990
Registered to International Airline Support Group - December 28, 1990
Observed at Opa-Locka, Florida awaiting maintenance - January 1991
Cancelled from the United States Aircraft Register - January 31, 1991
Sold to Buffalo Airways (1968) Ltd - January 31, 1991
Rolled out at Opa-Locka in basic Buffalo livery without titles after overhaul by Milair - April 1991
Entered onto the Canadian Aircraft Register as C-GPSH - July 30, 1991
Registered to Buffalo Airways (1986) Limited, Hay River, NWT
Aircraft named 'Arctic Distributor'
Registered to Buffalo Airways Limited, Hay River - December 08, 1994
Badly damaged when it ran off the runway at Carat Lake, Nunavut Territory, Canada - December 18, 2006
Aircraft ended up on its nose with extensive damage around lower forward fuselage
Nose section from DC-4 C-GXCN which had been written off on January 05, 2006 was transported to
Carak Lake to replace the damaged nose section of C-GPSH - July 2007
Aircraft reportedly moved to Hay River, NWT for further rectification work to be carried out
Observed in storage at Hay River as 'Freightliner 1' - September 14, 2014
Still listed as being current with Buffalo Airways

SOME PHOTOS HERE -

VH-EBN Douglas DC-4 (http://www.aussieairliners.org/dc-4/vh-ebn/vhebn.html)

[Fris B. Fairing]

To answer the original poster's question, a Captain who flew the DC-4 from 1970 to 1977 advises:

1. Yes - specialist navigators till 1974 when Lord Howe got a DME and then they were no longer required.
2. Most captains had some sort of Flight nav training.
3. Pilots could go direct to DC4 as S/o when joining and some did.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Up until the early '70s, with the arrival of Doppler, and widespread clearance of routes for pilot navs, all pilots joining Qantas had to have SCPL/ATPL subjects within three years of joining, and Flight Nav. withing five years.
These conditions were in each letter of appointment as a pilot.
All Captains had to hold a Flight Nav., they provided in flight relief to the N/O., meaning that an F/O had to gain the nav. license to be considered qualified for command.
This was dropped as a condition in the early '70s, because Qantas would not pay for a license that was not used.
As modern equipment arrived, I think the last Flight Nav. licenses were gained by some of the first and/or second course cadets, who actually flew as N/Os.
The move from S/O direct to Command was an anomaly that Qantas promptly eliminated after Warwick Tainton and one other went from S/O to Command, by requiring all Command candidates to be F/Os.
All new pilots were assigned as S/Os to a type at the discretion of the company, "back in the day", that could have been DC-3, DC-4, Electra, B707-138, B707-338C.
Tootle pip!!

[Stationair8]

Thanks for the info, gentlemen always greatly appreciated by an aviation enthusiast!

LeadSled, what would have been involved training wise to upgrade a second officer to command on a DC-4?

Was the Norfolk Island service a daily service in the DC-4 era?

Did Qantas do the endorsements for the Air Express pilots, when they bought the DC-4's?

[Mill Worker]

Yes, according to my father's log book, in 1951 the DC-4 was the step between the Lancastrian and the Constellation. He did many runs:
SY-DN-POB - KALL (but I don't know where POB is, most likely in Indonesia, Philippines or Malaysia, and KALL is anybody's guess)
SY-DN was 9:20 and DN- POB was 8:15, so draw a circle with a compass to see where it might be. POB-KALL was a further 3hrs. From Singapore, POB was 2:50

He also flew it to MIA (Manila?) and Iwakuni in Japan.

Perhaps the 4 was relegated to the island runs once the Connie started the longer hauls?
AC, I would imagine KALL was Kallang which was the airport in Singapore at the time. I think the terminal building still exits (as a museum) about half way out to Changi from town.

[Ascend Charlie]

Makes sense, Mill, but I wonder where POB is?

And Kallang sounds a bit like the Navigator dropped his sextant...

[PW1830]

Stationair,
WT and MF who went from S/O to Capt DC4 had done all their F/O training on the 707 except for base check when promotion stopped.
DC4 slots were advertised at the time and while some dithered W and M bid and were awarded - lots of whinging from the ditherers.
Given a hard time from one of the old school trainers - well hidden heart of gold!
Endorsement training at Narromine and lots of sectors to Norfolk and Auckland.
Only did daily during school Hols. Rest of year Mon and Wed return and Syd NLK AKL on Sat and back Sun.
Carried the Nav to NLK. Pilot Nav - powerful NDB at KT - NLK to AKL and back.
Crew - Capt F/O S/O - S/O did the fuelling and plenty of flying.
35 day recency required involved flying 8 or so guys to Narromine for a couple of days in the off seasons.
"Old school trainer" gave S/O's a good workout - two eng circuits etc with minimal support often after an evening of discussion in the Narromine Hotel.

Don't know about the training for Air Express.

[Fantome]

must ask WT when next we meet how he would compare the task of handling the 4 compared with the 74 , jumping through the more challenging emergency drill hoops that is.

(BOAC Captain OP Jones mid Atlantic near midnight all four engines stop.
Not on a DC-4. Turns to F/E "I say Phillips.. . .ominously quiet wouldn't you say?")

[LeadSled]

Folks,
The 747 (all models) --- straightforward compared to the DC-4.
As for it all going quite, on more than one occasion a QF DC-4 got down to one running due the horribly convoluted long range fuel tank arrangements.
No run-away props on a B 7anything, ask Warwick about that, he is the expert.
A quite amazing piece of flying around Norfolk, the BASI report does not do it justice.

Tootle pip!!

[TowerDog]

I see talks or S/Os and F/Es on the DC-4, but thought for some reason it was certified as a 2-pilot aircraft and the only 4-engine plane to be just that.?
Was there a crew-rest compartment for the S/O? F/E on the jumpseat running check lists?

[PW1830]

Certified 2 pilot. No crew rest. S/O had fold down seat between pilots.
Flight time limitations needed the 3rd pilot.
For NLK, full mains and some in aux tanks. Emptied by timing while feeding two engines per tank early in cruise. Nothing could go wrong there!!
Restarting a fuel starved piston ( or two) was not in the syllabus.
Pressing the feather button (s) was not an ideal option.

[TowerDog]

Roger on 3rd pilot for flight time, was it 8 hours back then?
Just now re-read post Nr. 15: It mentioned F/E, but not DC-4...

Always wanted to fly the DC-4, but never did.
Instead I went from DC-3 to DC-8. Needless to say, I was a busy lad while in training. :sad:

[PW1830]

FTL 14 hrs from memory. Crew rest was last row next to the primitive toilet.
Certificate provided for honeymooners who found it big enough.......

[TowerDog]

14 hours max endurance?
How many hours with 2 pilots before a S/O had to be onboard.?

[PW1830]

2 pilot, 8 stick hours, 11hr tour.
14hour tour with 3 pilots as no proper crew rest.
Never saw full tanks- forgot max endurance.
Only saw the inbd auxes used once- after maintenance. It was possible to fit the cloverleaf valves incorrectly....Training flight enhanced.

[LeadSled]

---- he was decidedly gruff and not one bit friendly.
Exactly my experience as a very young chap, and entirely unrelated to anything aviation.
Tootle pip!!

[Fantome]

Certificate provided for honeymooners who found it big enough.......

recalls the BA 747 skipper who warned a couple they were about to get more than a bucket of cold water. Couldn't give a stuff. . . .so he had then off loaded at HNL.

this incident was picked up by the Daily Telegraph in Sydney. The headline read -

THE HEIGHT OF INDISCRETION - IN SEATS 75D, 75E, 75F and 75G

thinks . .. Qantas issued the 'Secret Order of the Double Sunrise'
for those taking the Catalina service through Ceylon.
What could you give honeymooners who 'found it big enough'?

talk about thread drift . . remember the mile high club pilot of the Chieftain out of Essendon? "Hey pilot can you hear me? . . .pull a few decent Gs will ya?"

[Ascend Charlie]

PW said:
2 pilot, 8 stick hours, 11hr tour.
14hour tour with 3 pilots as no proper crew rest.
Logbook entry:
7 Sep 1950, SY-Darwin 9:40 night
(Same day, not sure how that worked) DN-Clark 10:35 would make for a duty period of 20:15 flight time over 2 day/1 night
8 Sep Clark-Iwakuni 5:50 day 2:15 night (8:05 tot)

10 sep Iwakuni-Clark 1:50 day 6 night
(still 10 sep) Clark - Darwin 2:05 night 8:05 day (18 hrs flight time)

[PW1830]

Back in the days when men were men.
We had it easy - conditions peaked out in 70's'80's and are heading downhill again.

[TowerDog]

Aye, men were men after the DC-4 days as well:

Starting an Air India Cargo sequence on the DC-8-73 in Rome we would fly to Frankfurt for cargo off and cargo on, then to Dubai for a fuel stop, then on to Bombay.
Block hours would be about 13 with no relief guy or S/O. Time on duty by the time we landed in Bombay, in the monsoon season to spice things up, would be 25 hrs or more.
Tireing flights with all the radio work over countries that did not speak to each other.
(This was 1988, never worked so much in my life, good thing I was young and enthusiastic, would have called in fatiqued now a days)