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View Full Version : So how you like an idea to ban russians from Olympic games?


Kulverstukas
18th Jun 2016, 20:08
Also take Football Cup 2018 from them.

PAXfips
18th Jun 2016, 20:49
Along "the Western" never did any doping.

Google a bit on 'L-Carnitin' and 'Meldonium' (first used by "western" in 40ft containers, latter by "russian").

Just pick your side of propaganda.

ORAC
18th Jun 2016, 21:32
Yes because of the doping... And Yes because of the violence in France.

Next question?

RexBanner
18th Jun 2016, 22:22
The award of two consecutive world cups at the same event was unprecedented and stank to high heaven from the very beginning and there is plenty of evidence to show that the award of 2018/2022 to Russia and Qatar respectively were hugely corrupt decisions. If you believe that the bidding processes for two consecutive tournaments were being staged concurrently and they were taking money for one but not the other, then well.....I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you.

It marked the point where Blatter and co truly believed they could get away with what they liked and they did briefly. Unfortunately for them they didn't quite spot that the entire western world would erupt in fury and bring them to justice for their greed, avarice and obvious corruption.

Both bidding processes should be rerun, especially in the case of Qatar where the award was and is totally nonsensical from every possible vantage point. At least Russia have a semblance of football history. In the light of events in France though I do not believe it is possible for Russia to stage a safe tournament for the fans. It will become a bloodbath.

G-CPTN
18th Jun 2016, 23:06
The solution to the 2018/2022 events would be for all the teams to refuse to take part.

Seemples.

paulc
18th Jun 2016, 23:21
England still would not win it though:p

G0ULI
18th Jun 2016, 23:23
High altitude training replicates the effects of blood doping, special diets and food combinations replicate the effects of steroids. Doping in one form or another has been a factor in every professional sporting event since the first Tour de France. It's only cheating if you get caught, right?

It isn't about sport, if it ever was, its about politics and money.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Jun 2016, 23:44
It's only cheating if you get caught, right?
And the Russians, who have been routinely and systematically cheating for decade after decade, have, finally, been caught.


(This is, of course, nothing to do with them invading and stealing bits of foreign countries, shooting down airliners, ect ect, which are entirely separate issues.)

G0ULI
18th Jun 2016, 23:47
So the USA won't be playing either?

Tankertrashnav
19th Jun 2016, 00:31
Meanwhile any women planning to visit the Qatar world cup should ensure that they dont get raped while they are there unless they want to be fined and deported for the "offence".

I doubt if Anthony Beevor will be going to Russia for the 2018 world cup. As the author of Berlin: The Downfall 1945 which described the savagery of the Russian occupiers, he has been told he risks imprisonment for insulting the Red Army, should he ever set foot in Russia.

Those are the sort of countries Blatter handed the next two venues to - what a totally corrupt game it is.

jolihokistix
19th Jun 2016, 00:49
Don't like the idea of banning anyone.


But then the way these Olympics are shaping up, I think the event itself should be cancelled.

Nervous SLF
19th Jun 2016, 01:25
I doubt if Anthony Beevor will be going to Russia for the 2018 world cup. As the author of Berlin: The Downfall 1945 which described the savagery of the Russian occupiers, he has been told he risks imprisonment for insulting the Red Army, should he ever set foot in Russia.

Those are the sort of countries Blatter handed the next two venues to - what a totally corrupt game it is.


I wonder what the Russian Army think about the scum "supporters" who have been photographed
giving a Nazi salute then ? Perhaps Putin should arrest them rather than asking how did only 200
chase away about 1000 English fans ?

As for teams not turning up for the World Cup - good luck with that as far far too much money would
be lost by those teams that didn't go. Also there would be plenty of others who would turn up just like
for the Moscow Olympics a few years ago.

Talking about this years games in Rio I think again that too much money is involved so tough luck
to any competitors who get the Ziko virus or who catch something nasty from the water.

TowerDog
19th Jun 2016, 02:34
.
I doubt if Anthony Beevor will be going to Russia for the 2018 world cup. As the author of Berlin: The Downfall 1945 which described the savagery of the Russian occupiers, he has been told he risks imprisonment for insulting the Red Army, should he ever set foot in Russia.


Savagery of the Russian occupiers?
The krauts were much worse in any country they occupied. The Ruskies only faught back and paid back. Tough luck in Berlin when the Nazis lost and the Russians came for a visit.

Uncle Fred
19th Jun 2016, 02:53
I know that many who frequent these august discussion boards are not fans of sport but I have to admit that I am. I remember sitting as a young boy with my brother watching the games from Mexico City. Lee Evans running a sub 44 400M (I don't care if it was at altitude or not 43.87 was smoking). Ryan getting nipped in the 1500 etc.

Then we had the great Coe/Ovett/Cram triumvirate in the '80s that was racing at its best--and they of course had been preceded by some British greats.

Shorter winning the Marathon in '72 and having been nipped out by a doper in '76.

..and these are just the athletics/track--lets look at one my wife just reminded me of--Olga Korbut and of course the perfect Comaneci 10s in gymnastics. Then we have Rowing, swimming, basketball, etc.

Sprinting, weightlifting, and the field events have always been problematic of course and that is a shame.

I am not sure what they should do with these games. Putin's thuggery never ceases to amaze me. He has already, seemingly, killed two of the drug lab officials and I am sure the others in hiding are in fear of their lives.

Gouli I would say that not every athlete is doping. I am going to try to get to Omaha next week as a good friend of mine has a daughter who is swimming in the U.S. trials and I have followed the sport for years and years. This young athlete gets up before 5 a.m. every day for the morning workout and must be in fine fettle for the afternoon session. Her times are very good and she will indeed be competitive--at the very least she will swim for a national university swimming powerhouse.

How do I know that the coach is not doping her and her teamates? Three reasons. The first is that she is not swimming in East Germany in the 70s and 80s. The second is that I was at school with the mother and remember her swimming prowess for the university team. Third....she recently turned 15 so no, I do not think that she, or even any of her swimming competitors are doping.

Putin can go back to his Stalinistic pram and throw out all the toys he wants--and he most certainly will do this including, apparently, assassination. Should the games be postponed? Not sure...maybe that would be best.

A given however, is to get the World Cup out of Qatar and Russia. To the blazes with them. They have robbed us of great sporting moments.

Ovation
19th Jun 2016, 03:14
The heat could have been taken out of this by instituting a two strikes rule. When an athlete "misses" (avoids) an out of competition test once, they are put on notice. Miss another and you're (a) banned for 2 years and (b) still required to present for unannounced drug testing.

fitliker
19th Jun 2016, 03:16
Time to get honest and allow the drug companies full honest open access to test their drugs on these willing guinea pigs . Maybe they could use genetic modifications .
I was worried about the steroids given to a relative during cancer treatment.
The Doctor said " Do not worry the steroids have been tested on the best athletes in the world "


Time to let the drug companies sponsor the Athletes and Sponsor the games to reduce the cost to the host country.


I would be very interested to see what they could do with gene therapy and new drugs.
With all those willing human guinea pigs ,they might even find a cure for stupidity :)

wiggy
19th Jun 2016, 07:37
I'll accept that many athletes in most sports aren't doping but TBH when you've got amateurs in cycling caught using performance enhancing drugs (PED) to improve their chances in sportives or doping to improve their ****** Strava segment times I think you need to accept that doping in all it's form is widespread in all performance sports.

Why do some amateur cyclists resort to doping? - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/why-do-some-amateur-cyclists-resort-to-doping/article13329812/?page=all)

(and before the cries of, "ah, but that's cycling" for you start, you'd have to be in complete denial to think the temptations and opportunities to dope don't exist in other sports..at least there's some testing going on at amateur cycling events)

The main, political problem with this years Olympics IMHO isn't that Russian athletes were doping, it's that it seems to have been state sponsored and/or the state was deliberately turning a blind eye to what their own organisations were up to. It's perhaps fair to point out that there's also least one "non offensive" African country and another small one in the western hemisphere who seem to be getting a relatively easy ride (certainly compared with Russia) over accusations of behaving in much the same way and apparently being unable to organise a p. up in a brewery when it comes to routine out of competion testing. Athletes from both those countries will win medals this summer, possibly lots..

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/feb/14/kenyan-athletics-drug-tests-wada

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/entire-jamaican-anti-doping-board-resigns-amid-controversy-over-failed-drug-tests-8959186.html

Sallyann1234
19th Jun 2016, 08:36
The heat could have been taken out of this by instituting a two strikes rule. When an athlete "misses" (avoids) an out of competition test once, they are put on notice. Miss another and you're (a) banned for 2 years and (b) still required to present for unannounced drug testing.

Completely useless when the state testing system is designed to let doping through without question, as in the Russian system.

Uncle Fred
19th Jun 2016, 09:26
I would have to agree Wiggy.

Uncle Fred
19th Jun 2016, 09:43
I am going to have rustle up an article that Malcom Gladwell wrote in which he gives his opinion on doping. In it he uses as an example that most foul and odious figure of Lance Armstrong.

Gladwell points out that in many sports the doping does not magically make you a champion but rather allows you to work at a greater level that much longer and more often. It most definately is not a ticket from the sofa to the winner's platform.

Gladwell, for what I recall, was not advocating the games be given over totally to Big Pharma as this could permanently damage many young athletes. Nor was he excusing Armstrong or any other cheater. He rather pointed out the facet that the real nub of the cheating is that it allows one to train and work that much harder.

Not sure if I agree with all he puts forth, but it is a bit of perspective on just what a lot (but certainly not all of course) of the doping is doing.

Impossible I know, but I prefer to see it as clean as possible.

Windy Militant
19th Jun 2016, 10:21
We have the Paralympics for those with disabilities.
We have the Olympics for elite athletes.
So why not have a Superlympics for those who chose to use performance enhancers.
We could get the Pharmacorps to sponsor them.
Problem sorted!

ORAC
19th Jun 2016, 10:35
It would add a new meaning to the "high jump"....

wiggy
19th Jun 2016, 10:35
Uncle Fred

the real nub of the cheating is that it allows one to train and work that much harder.

Yep,...the general view nowadays is doping often isn't really about taking "something" on the competion day in order to climb the mountain faster/go round the track quicker/kick the ball harder at the end of 80/90 minutes, (you'll probably get caught in the post event test doing that), it's more likely to be done improve/reduce recovery times between competition days and/or training sessions.



That's why no sport is immune.

Anyway, still be a shame if this lady isn't competing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelena_Isinbayeva

Tankertrashnav
19th Jun 2016, 10:47
Tower Dog - I entirely agree that the Germans were equally savage in their occupation of countries that they occupied, but that is to miss the point.

Every since the immediate post war period successive German governments have taken great measure to acknowledge the violent excesses of the Nazi regime, to the extent that Holocaust denial is a crime in that country. The Russians on the other hand have raised the Red Army to an almost sacred status, to the point where any criticism of them is unthinkable. Beevor's book is well researched, and as it is specifically about the fall of Berlin it is quite natural that it should deal with the behaviour of the Red Army, as they were the troops who were there. "Tough luck" you say - tough luck on the thousands of women and girls who were raped by men of the glorious Red Army?

There has always been an automatic tendency for first the USSR and now Russia to deny. The 1940 Katyn massacre in which up to 22,000 Polish officers, police, etc were killed by the NKVD was denied until 1990, and even then not condemned as a war crime. The Russian refusal to acknowledge the excesses of the Red Army in Berlin in 1945 is in a long tradition of Soviet/Russian refusal to accept guilt, which is now shown in the infinitely more trivial matter of their attempts to downplay the role of the state in drug use in sport.

hiflymk3
19th Jun 2016, 12:13
Apologies for thread drift but I'm currently rereading Antony Beevors' Berlin after reading Hugh Trevor-Ropers' The Last Days OF Hitler. Trevor-Roper, a British intelligence officer was sent to Berlin in 1945 to investigate Hitlers' death. This book is a damn good read and available from that South American river site and others.

Back on topic, how about N Korea for the Olympics and World Cup? Losers go to the dogs.

Kulverstukas
19th Jun 2016, 12:34
Nach Ausschluss der Leichtathleten: Gesamtes russisches Olympia-Team soll auf den Prüfstand - SPIEGEL ONLINE

So more people like the idea that Russkies must be thrown off any international events. What about UN membership?

Kulverstukas
19th Jun 2016, 12:37
Back on topic, how about N Korea for the Olympics and World Cup?

They don't rape German women. Also last trend is to blame Russkies for hacking Pentagon and Sony Entertainment, not Kim's people.

Lonewolf_50
19th Jun 2016, 13:21
Nach Ausschluss der Leichtathleten: Gesamtes russisches Olympia-Team soll auf den Prüfstand - SPIEGEL ONLINE

So more people like the idea that Russkies must be thrown off any international events. What about UN membership?
Soviet Union/Russia are a founding member of UN, and a UNSC permanent member.
They can't be "thrown out."
The politics in Olympics is disappointing.
As for doping, each year any number of NFL players get suspended, for parts or all of a season, for PED's.
Baseball is just now recovering from it.

SpringHeeledJack
19th Jun 2016, 13:46
It's perhaps fair to point out that there's also least one "non offensive" African country and another small one in the western hemisphere who seem to be getting a relatively easy ride (certainly compared with Russia) over accusations of behaving in much the same way and apparently being unable to organise a p. up in a brewery when it comes to routine out of competion testing. Athletes from both those countries will win medals this summer, possibly lots..

Ha ha, I knew who you were referring to before clicking on the links. Both countries being knee-deep in talent, one slow-twitch muscle fibres, the other fast-twitch. That alone is an advantage over most other nations , yet they have both 'allegedly' fostered a programme of doping that is only now starting to unravel. Once above a certain level, ALL amateurs are quasi-professional and behave like the pros do, always looking for an advantage, it's just a tool of business. I believe that 'aids to enhance' are seen as just that and the matter of cheating,playing by the rules,sportsmanship etc are just quaint concepts. Many…..perhaps most cultures see competition as warfare and they take no prisoners, there's a tacit encouragement to take every advantage available and if the others aren't doing it, then more fool them.

As to amateur cyclists doping for sportive rides (essentially non competitive) I think it's down to the development of cycling as a pastime in the last decade, many of the newcomers are from a distinct socioeconomic group who in their work life are hunter-killers :E, ultra competitive by nature, so that transfers over into getting one over on their peers and let the devil take the hindmost. Chemical and mechanical doping are on the increase as a result…..:rolleyes:

The Russians have crossed the line and seemingly haven't put safeguards in place, so they have to be seen to be excluded from the Olympics. No doubt there are geo-political elements to the decision but from a sporting perspective, it's the correct one.


SHJ

Sallyann1234
19th Jun 2016, 14:06
Should we really be bothered what happens with the Olympics any more?

It used to be a meeting of amateurs, striving for sporting excellence and the honour of winning medals.

Now it's a toxic mix of international politics, promotion of global product brands, and professional athletes earning millions in sponsorship.

Pierre de Coubertin must have earned a gold medal for a record number of revolutions in his grave.

ImageGear
19th Jun 2016, 14:20
Many years ago, a business colleague was in the top ten of world athletics in the Marathon. He was very, very clear that any, "and I mean ANY" athlete competing at that level knew precisely, every vitamin, every protein, every carbohydrate and every substance entering their system.

They knew precisely, the implications of anything being found in testing, then or in the future, that gave rise to suspicion of performance enhancement. They made it their responsibility to know.

His comment was, if one person was doing something at the top, how many hundreds if not thousands of potential champions had they cheated out of achieving medals or recognition. How many young athletes had given up on a life's dream because of someone who was using enhancing substances.

He stated that nothing short of a "Life Ban" from competition was required.

Athletes may be manipulated but it does not change the fact that athletes represent countries, countries have governments, governments can be corrupt and without ethics or morals.

The liability is corporate.

Imagegear

Sue Vêtements
19th Jun 2016, 14:48
It's the Olympics, so who gives a sh1t anyway?

Personally I think Greece should be made to host them ... for ever! After all, they started it and if they really DO make money :rolleyes: They need it more than just about anyone. And all those stadia and lodgings really WILL get used again.

My virtual hat is still off to France though - when the bidding was between Paris and London, France planned a garbage strike. It was pure genius and got the country out from under the oppressive requirements of hosting. Too bad they're giving it another go :(

Then again a bit of doping ... what's the harm? Olympian gets sex-change after docs doped her with PEDs - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/olypian-sex-change-docs-doped-peds-article-1.1349901)



Oh and one more reason to not drink this brightly coloured goo Pansold, the Daily News has learned, works now for Austrian energy drink company Red Bull

SilsoeSid
19th Jun 2016, 15:10
Uncle Fred;
I am going to try to get to Omaha next week as a good friend of mine has a daughter who is swimming in the U.S. trials and I have followed the sport for years and years. This young athlete gets up before 5 a.m. every day for the morning workout and must be in fine fettle for the afternoon session. Her times are very good and she will indeed be competitive--at the very least she will swim for a national university swimming powerhouse.

How do I know that the coach is not doping her and her teamates? Three reasons. The first is that she is not swimming in East Germany in the 70s and 80s. The second is that I was at school with the mother and remember her swimming prowess for the university team. Third....she recently turned 15 so no, I do not think that she, or even any of her swimming competitors are doping.

What an outstanding example of blinkeredness.

No country has a monopoly on doping
Mmm, so what if the daughter isn't coming up to mummy's expectations?
I don't know of any age limits on doping, do you?

Teenage cyclist Gabriel Evans admits to doping because culture had been 'normalised and justified' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/12044175/Teenage-cyclist-Gabriel-Evans-admits-to-doping-because-culture-had-been-normalised-and-justified.html)

An 18-year-old cyclist faces a doping ban after admitting using blood boosting agent EPO.
Gabriel Evans has been expelled from the London Dynamo cycling club for using the drug of choice for Lance Armstrong and his contemporaries in his victory in the British Junior 10-mile time-trial in August.
Teenage cyclist faces doping ban after admitting EPO use (From York Press) (http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/14138005.Teenage_cyclist_faces_doping_ban_after_admitting_EP O_use/)


https://www.wada-ama.org/
Yes, there is an app for that;
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/wada-prohibited-list-2016/id408057950?mt=8

wiggy
19th Jun 2016, 16:55
Sadly as SiloeSid has mentioned there is indeed evidence that age (or lack there off) is no bar to doping, certainly in certain sports..for example:

The shocking stats that reveal the scale of doping in Welsh sport - and how rugby is the worst offender - Wales Online (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/shocking-stats-reveal-scale-doping-9717533)


(Despite the provenance of the link I'm not trying to pointing fingers at any particular nation, or sport - there have been similar worries expressed elsewhere in the UK about young competitors in many sports and the abuse of steriods, growth hormones, and other substances)

SilsoeSid
19th Jun 2016, 17:37
Under the World Anti-Doping Code all Anti-Doping Rule Violations (ADRVs) must be published. This section lists all persons currently serving an ADRV.

UK (http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/current-violations/search&category=)

USA (http://www.usada.org/testing/results/sanctions/)

One for Uncle Fred';

American swim coaches gathered for their annual conference in New Orleans have received a dire warning about the suspected use of banned substances, including Human Growth Hormone, among young athletes in the United States as a consequence of a social fashion among the swimmers’ parents to use drugs forbidden in sport in their pursuit of youthful looks. (http://www.swimvortex.com/are-parents-becoming-pushers-us-coaches-asked/)

Leonard named some products, some that are banned for under 16s in certain parts if the world, and noted the high number of empty asthma inhalers in the stands after meets.

In a four-month investigation, the SunSentinel (not with any direct reference to swimming) found:

Physicians from Miami to Vero Beach said parents have requested prescription-only drugs to make their young athletes bigger and stronger even when the children display no medical need for them.
More than six dozen South Florida high school students or recent graduates interviewed by the newspaper said they used hormones or steroids for strength-building, or knew others who had.
Some of the young people and three physicians said parents knew of their teens’ drug use or supplied the drugs.
Several local coaches and trainers said parents told them they were seeking performance-enhancing substances to give their young athletes an edge.

The number of positive tests in all sports in the world this year is around 450, with many of those involved aged 14 to 19 and not big-medal contenders for the biggest of events.

Kulverstukas
19th Jun 2016, 18:20
SilsoeSid, its Russkies KGB secretly pour some doping into their very clean food an drinks. Definitely.

wiggy
19th Jun 2016, 18:30
Ah, the "somebody put something in my food" , or as it's known in the cycling world: " Bertie's defence", often used these days when an individual is faced with doping allegations...;)

SHJ will probably know what I'm on about...(Bertie=Alberto, the "something" was clembuterol)

Uncle Fred
19th Jun 2016, 21:24
Silsoe,

Might I ask for a bit closer reading of what I posted? I never said that any one country has a monopoly on doping. It has been, through the decades, rampant. My invective pointed at Russia is for the staggeringly systemic and deliberate nature of what is a very deep and broad effort--one that seems to have the whiff of state support behind it.

My displeasure with this situation does not mean that I exonerate athletes from other countries who have doped--some with a great deal of "assistance." Ben Johnson, Justin Gaitlin, Harry "Butch" Reynolds, and others are/were (obviously) non-Russian cheats. If I am not mistaken did not the Jamaican Nesta Carter just get nipped out for the 2008 games?

I found this sentence in the Telegraph: Apart from Bolt, eveyr sprinter who has gone under 9.79secs has given a positive drugs test

So I cannot plead the case that athletes the world over are clean.

I do thank you for the swimming link btw. Apart from being a good site, what you forwarded was indeed an eye opener. Although not a state sponsored effort, the fact that some parents might be doing this to young age-group competitors is frightening--indeed sick.

Two points. What will my friends do if their daughter does not make the squad for Rio? Well, I suspect what they have always done. Let the daughter swim until she no longer is passionate about it and continue on with her education--just as nearly all but the most elite athletes have to do. Go to school, enter the workplace, and grow a family. Like the rest of us...

If I am not mistaken, one of the gents who posts on this board is a doctor of some type. I am not going to opine on matters well beyond my expertise other than to say that I thought doping young athletes is an extraordinarily risky thing to be doing. Apart from the sheer morality of this, one can severely disrupt and damage maturation processes. I would like for the doc to weigh in on this should he/she have knowledge.

I know one of the reasons given for not allowing a massive free for all in doping (the anything goes approach) is that the physical fallout could be staggering. Sure the athlete might know "what they are getting into," but is the judgment exercised in the flush of youth when one is strong of arm and fleet of foot the standard for rational decision making? I bet there would be many regrets. Self inflicted? Perhaps. Either way a lot of potential fallout.

I guess where I stand is in saying that while there are many athletes/countries who cheat, there are many who do not--and many amateurs who definitely do not. It is their dedication to task and the beauty of sport that I admire.

Uncle Fred
19th Jun 2016, 21:33
Ah, the "somebody put something in my food" , or as it's known in the cycling world: " Bertie's defence", often used these days when an individual is faced with doping allegations...

SHJ will probably know what I'm on about...(Bertie=Alberto, the "something" was clembuterol)


Of course there is the Dieter Baumann pleading of someone having put nandralone in his toothpaste. He maintains this to the current day. I do not know of course if someone did or did not but it is rather an interesting story is it not?

G0ULI
20th Jun 2016, 00:28
Kulverstukas
I think it is a mistake to ban Russia from any sporting competition that they wish to take part in. There is ample proof that athletic performance is artificially enhanced in almost every country and almost every sporting discipline. Not every athlete takes drugs to improve their performance and drugs alone can't make you an athlete. It takes a lot of hard training and dedication to rise to Olympian levels of fitness.

If Russia has a state sponsored program to ensure that those athletes that want to artificially enhance their performance, do so in relative safety and under controlled medical supervision, that's great.

Clearly this is a political decision intended to punish Russia rather than a serious attempt to clean up sporting events.

Give individual athletes a life time ban, but lets leave nationalism out of it. The Olympic Games are supposed to bring countries together not ban entire nations from taking part.

Andy_S
20th Jun 2016, 14:31
If Russia has a state sponsored program to ensure that those athletes that want to artificially enhance their performance, do so in relative safety and under controlled medical supervision, that's great.

Are you serious? Russia carried out a huge state sanctioned doping program and you think that this is somehow admirable?

Clearly this is a political decision intended to punish Russia rather than a serious attempt to clean up sporting events.

Hang on. The Russians would have been able to travel to Rio if they had cleaned up. They had an opportunity to comply, but didn’t do so.

Give individual athletes a life time ban, but lets leave nationalism out of it. The Olympic Games are supposed to bring countries together not ban entire nations from taking part.

It’s only the athletes who have been excluded (and even then the IAAF have left a loophole); all the other Russian competitors can still participate (so much for it being “political”….). There is a difference between individual athletes who choose to artificially enhance their performance and federations who embark upon doping programs at a national level. The former need to be dealt with as individuals, the latter collectively.

Uncle Fred
20th Jun 2016, 14:35
Well said Andy. Well said indeed.

SilsoeSid
20th Jun 2016, 15:22
Some may be wondering how extensive this all is;

Athletes currently suspended from all competitions in athletics following an Anti-Doping Rule Violation as at: 06.06.16

http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=c198d111-adda-475a-b8e5-0a5aedead6ea.pdf&urlslug=List%20of%20athletes%20currently%20serving%20a%20per iod%20of%20ineligibility%20as%20a%20result%20of%20an%20anti-doping%20rule%20violation%20under%20IAAF%20rules
From;
Anti-Doping | Official Documents | iaaf.org (http://www.iaaf.org/about-iaaf/documents/anti-doping)

What is a violation?

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsvthyqjxv.jpeg

Athlete Support Personnel (ASP)

G0ULI
20th Jun 2016, 16:00
For years I have taken over the counter medication when necessary to control the pain of an old injury. Under the anti doping rules, I would fall foul of every test and yet I have never taken a performance enhancing drug or anything that was not freely available to every member of the public. It is just that some of the ingedients in those medications appear on the list of banned substances.

It is all a total nonsense.

SilsoeSid
20th Jun 2016, 16:38
Generally G0uli, pain relief drugs contain steroids which in turn ... well you know the rest.

You do know that there are therapeutic use exceptions dont you?

In accordance with IAAF Rule 34.9, a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) is required whenever an athlete with a documented medical condition requires the use of a prohibited substance or a prohibited method which is listed on the WADA Prohibited List.
This implies that athletes and their doctors are fully aware of the list of prohibited substances contained in the WADA Prohibited List (reviewed annually) and that they pay particular attention to the contents of all pharmaceutical products purchased ‘over-the-counter’ or prescribed to them by a doctor.

If an athlete does not file a TUE application and subsequently tests positive for the prohibited substance, he or she may be found guilty of an anti-doping rule violation and face sanctions under IAAF Rules.

http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=8f93ba17-8058-4037-ac4d-6414b909cd70.pdf&urlslug=Athlete%20Advisory%20Notes%3A%20Therapeutic%20Use%20 Exemptions

SilsoeSid
20th Jun 2016, 16:41
yet I have never taken a performance enhancing drug

Do you drink coffee?

DType
20th Jun 2016, 16:59
Berlin versus Austria
Wearing my kilt in Austria a few years ago, a lady approached who would have been a teenager in 1945. "At the end of the war", she said. "Yeeess?" I replied. "The first allied soldiers to reach us were from Scotland." "Yeeess?" I replied. "They were very well behaved" she said. "I am so glad to hear that", I replied.
Phew!
Sorry about thread drift.

West Coast
20th Jun 2016, 17:21
Do you drink coffee?

Is coffee banned?

SilsoeSid
20th Jun 2016, 17:41
Some consider caffeine to be performance enhancing, however for now it is just in the WADA monitoring programme.

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada-2016-monitoring-program-en.pdf

The World Anti-Doping Code (Article 4.5) states: “WADA, in consultation with Signatories and governments, shall establish a monitoring program regarding substances which are not on the Prohibited List, but which WADA wishes to monitor in order to detect patterns of misuse in sport."

West Coast
20th Jun 2016, 17:46
So it's not banned?

G0ULI
20th Jun 2016, 18:19
What this serves to illustrate is that the bans are artificial limits. If caffeine is banned, athletes will be deprived of drinking, coffee, tea, coca cola, and any number of other energy drinks.

There are drugs and particularly steroids that are very dangerous if abused or taken without a strict medical need. Being able to apply for a therapeutic use exemption makes a mockery of the rules. Taking a proscribed drug under the exemption rules for a year while training hard is no different from outright cheating. How many athletes have taken a year or two off due to injury or illness only to return to their sport with vastly improved performance times? Quite a few, including the infamous Lance Armstrong.

The commercial pressures on athletes to be competitive are immense. The risks to health are very high, but success can bring very rich rewards. I don't condone the use of performance enhancing drugs, but I can understand the temptation presented to athletes who are good, but just incapable of gaining that slight extra edge needed to be one of the best.

wiggy
20th Jun 2016, 19:45
Being able to apply for a therapeutic use exemption makes a mockery of the rules

TUE's are certainly wide open to abuse: get a friendly (possibly team) doctor to say you've got condition A therefore you need a TUE for product B, and bingo, you're in the clear to use something for a few days..... David Millars book was particularly illuminating on the subject.

Now of course the really naughty thing to do is to get caught on a test and then rush and get approval for a retrospective TUE......now to do that you probably need approval not just from the medics but from the sports officiating body........;)

Personally I think the French have the right idea on this - get caught doping or aiding and abetting and the investigative process starts with the Gendarmes, and you'll quite possibly spend a night (or more) in the cells. After that you may quite possibly end up facing criminal charges. I'm not claiming it stops the doping but it changes the cost vs. benefit considerations, especially at the youth/amateur level..

SilsoeSid
20th Jun 2016, 20:09
Being able to apply for a therapeutic use exemption makes a mockery of the rules

It could be seen that way, however the consequences for all involved could be career breaking. For some that will always be a risk worth taking.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15776342
The purpose of the World Anti-Doping Code 2003 and the 2004 Prohibited List is to create a universal international standard to fight doping in competitive sports. The result of this is a whole series of changes for doctors with regard to their work with competitive athletes. The revised definition of doping now includes physicians in the group of persons who can fulfil the elements of a doping offence. Moreover, the mere possession of substances appearing on the Prohibited List represents a violation of anti-doping regulations.


David Walsh claims Team Sky's use of therapeutic use exemptions conflicts with its ethical stance | road.cc (http://road.cc/content/news/121649-david-walsh-claims-team-skys-use-therapeutic-use-exemptions-conflicts-its)
"Sunday Times journalist David Walsh, author of the book Inside Team Sky, has questioned the British WorldTour outfit’s commitment to its ethical policies following its application for a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) in April to allow Chris Froome to take part in the Tour de Romandie while taking medication to treat a chest infection.

Walsh’s criticism came as French newspaper Le Journal de Dimanche reiterated its claim, originally made the previous week, that the UCI did not adhere to correct procedures in granting Froome a TUE for glucocorticosteroids ahead of the Tour de Romandie in April.

The journalist, who spent a period of 2013 embedded within Team Sky, claimed in The Sunday Times that Sky had changed its position on TUEs, asking: “What has happened to the team's belief that TUEs should not be sought for riders in competition?”

He said that while Froome and team doctor Alan Farrell said they could recall no such stance, sports psychiatrist Steve Peters, who worked with the team as part of his former role at British Cycling, insisted that had been the team’s policy.

“Team Sky like to portray themselves as the most ethical team in the peloton. The evidence says otherwise,” Walsh added."

SilsoeSid
20th Jun 2016, 20:18
This would be why one would need a TUE;

Latest news from UK Anti-Doping (http://www.ukad.org.uk/news/article/cyclist-simon-yates-banned-for-four-months)

The world governing body for cycling, the UCI, today confirmed that British cyclist Simon Yates has been suspended from all sport for four months following an Anti-Doping Rule Violation (ADRV).

Yates tested positive for the asthma medication terbutaline following an in-competition test and is banned from all sport from 12 March 2016 until midnight 11 July 2016.

UKAD Chief Executive, Nicole Sapstead said, “the case of Simon Yates serves to highlight that all athletes are responsible for what is found in their system, regardless of how it got there. In relation to medications, all athletes need to take personal responsibility for what they are being given, even when prescribed by a doctor.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/simon-yates-embarrassed-ashamed-anti-doping-rule-violation-234053
In a statement issued on behalf of Yates after the UCI’s decision was published, the 23-year-old from Bury said:

“The last few months have been very long and extremely painful, not only for me but for my family and friends. I received a notification from the UCI in mid-April that they had discovered the prohibited substance terbutaline in my control test sample from Paris-Nice. Unbeknown to me, this substance was in the medication prescribed to treat my asthma during the race, asthma being a condition I was diagnosed with as a child and have suffered with since then.

“Whilst the medication prescribed was clearly stated on the doping control test form by my team doctor, he made an administrative error by failing to apply for the necessary TUE for the use of this medication.

Cyber Bob
21st Jun 2016, 13:45
It also means no Darya, sadly:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHnHUzamqkjQQcCtAybWvsY_pIWV5UUiFLVeycmZP KeayAm6dpW1-fl0Xb (https://www.google.co.uk/url?url=https://www.pinterest.com/pin/29484572533686411/&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwis_oj4krnNAhWHJMAKHWEyCmcQwW4IGjAC&usg=AFQjCNEoNyBnaLP-TPbN9a7vYMFxt71M7Q)

reynoldsno1
22nd Jun 2016, 03:29
It also means no Darya, sadly:
Maybe not - it now seems that Russian athletes who can prove themselves innocent of doping may be able to compete, and represent Russia ...

West Coast
22nd Jun 2016, 03:53
https://www.google.com/search?q=darya+russian+long+jumper&client=safari&hl=en&prmd=vin&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=UMzuH5sOTOBoPM%253A%252CCYVtuGokI_Ys7M%252C_%253BS2epUHM SwHVQUM%253A%252C3pJEvck0-y2pNM%252C_%253BOXSh43mvABDgKM%253A%252C8t9yVE0XdTq5pM%252C_ %253BYRiINRIYT821-M%253A%252CZyOm0uVU7wHKpM%252C_%253BNUF0lFRkPYIpMM%253A%252C 7u0nR9igeJVonM%252C_%253Bra0g1PkoahofSM%253A%252C4ftUTQbeBm-0BM%252C_%253BOeT7tkCMx3tEpM%253A%252C6yHSWhMwH8Y0jM%252C_%2 53BJXyxD16iTd6GDM%253A%252C3pJEvck0-y2pNM%252C_%253BK7dQ2c0gqtMdnM%253A%252CdIpeHQ4pheGgXM%252C_ %253BUjYDnl2IvKqxiM%253A%252C3pJEvck0-y2pNM%252C_&usg=__bnjJWn4Pk-qrysz-91IXwlTF2S4%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIlu6U0LrNAhUE8GMKHYPNBCQQsAQIGg&biw=1024&bih=672#imgrc=Psaj28clD45UtM%3A

Willing to make one exception for her.

Peter-RB
22nd Jun 2016, 06:45
Well sadly I must withdraw from selection,,, I have been taking Steroids to help get rid of a terrible lung problem, but my Doctor has said I could still enter the G&T with Ice and a slice competition.....

But just to add to the Rooshian problem, I seem to remember they had some problem in the late 50's into the 60's with some shot putter female..(?) who it seems had a big set of Gonads hidden away,.. so nowt changes once a cheat always a cheat............:ouch:

Cyber Bob
22nd Jun 2016, 07:22
Let's hope she makes it West Coast - purely from a sporting perspective of course!

radeng
22nd Jun 2016, 13:22
Lengthy use of steroids can lead to cataracts - I was on steroids for three years and did get cataracts, although having diabetes didn't help.

G0ULI
22nd Jun 2016, 14:06
In these enlightened times, just how do we deal with intersex athletes? The genuine ones, not the hormone/steroid abuse type.

Do they all compete in the female category, the male category, an intersex category?

There seems no obvious and non discriminatory way of addressing this issue.

Cyber Bob
22nd Jun 2016, 14:47
Good question Gouli. This season Caster Semenya is really dominating the 'Womens' 800 and I think her inclusion is just as awkward for her as it is everyone else.

Radeng - Interesting point about steriod use, but could I ask: Did you win?

Uncle Fred
23rd Jun 2016, 16:25
David Epstein in his book The Sports Gene touches on a bit on some of the problems that sports have had with hermaphrodites, XXY chromosomes, etc. I was surprised at the complexity with this issue...how they developed reasonable testing? How the officials still wrestle with what is fair.

I do not envy the decision makers in some of these cases.

West Coast
23rd Jun 2016, 18:05
There seems no obvious and non discriminatory way of addressing this issue.

When you muddy the waters, you're correct. In it's ultimate manifestation, you recognize what it is, elective, cosmetic surgery and not a change to the DNA of the person, the pathway is clearer from a clinical viewpoint. That's the viewpoint that should prevail, not one driven by the PC crowd. If you have X&Y, you compete with that group, if you have X&X you're in that group, regardless of how you present yourself. If you're taking female hormones to look more like a woman, you better train that much harder as you've voluntarily put yourself at an athletic disadvantage.

Kulverstukas
10th Jul 2016, 12:10
Ok, so it done and only way to individuals to participate is to sign renunciation from Russian citizenship. I sincerely congratulate whole totally clean and innocent world of Olympics which is brave enough to ban this pesky russkies from participating. Hope it will be not limited to athletics only, so whole bloody Russia will be banned forever from any international sport, football cup 2018 included. Please don't forget to withdraw 2014 winter Olympic medals from russkies, btw.

racedo
10th Jul 2016, 13:25
The Russians have crossed the line and seemingly haven't put safeguards in place, so they have to be seen to be excluded from the Olympics. No doubt there are geo-political elements to the decision but from a sporting perspective, it's the correct one

Anybody remember FloJo........................... Florence Griffith Joyner. US Doper and dead at a young age.

US Olympic Committee ignored doping tests results and allowed their athletes free rein to compete.

No clamour for any action against them oh wait the claim will be the not State sponsored so its ok.

The claim that Russian athletes ruined London 2012 by doping was being made until it was pointed out to UK media that UK was responsible for all the drug testing in 2012 so it was their failing.

racedo
10th Jul 2016, 13:42
And Yes because of the violence in France.


As someone who was at 8 games at the Euro's in France the blame Russia for ALL violence in Football is laughable and pathethic. Irish friends drag me along to the games............. well not a lot of resistance from me as they always have a party.

In Fan zone in Paris fans mixed easily, well aside from England supporters who seemed to want to congregate together and then en mass chuck bottles or whatever they could at people.

One only has to look at conduct of England football supporters in last 30 years to see how crap the arguement is that it was always the Russians.

Met 2 guys from Newcastle who said now always follow Ireland even though zero connections. asked why and one said "When I wore an England shirt going to an away game people saw aggresion and kept away, when i wear an Ireland shirt people smile and say hello".

evansb
10th Jul 2016, 20:16
In this current era, I fail to see the purpose of the Olympic Games in total, so a ban of a certain country is meaningless to me.

TEEEJ
10th Jul 2016, 21:00
Racedo wrote

The claim that Russian athletes ruined London 2012 by doping was being made until it was pointed out to UK media that UK was responsible for all the drug testing in 2012 so it was their failing.

How was it a UK failing? The samples are stored for a decade and were re-tested using newer methods or to look for new drugs. The advances in testing are on-going. Using those newer methods Beijing 2008 samples were also re-tested and cheaters caught.

The IOC, which stores samples for a decade in order to re-test using newer methods or to look for new drugs, is re-testing samples from past Games in a bid to ban cheats from competing at the Rio de Janeiro Olympics ...

The targeted re-testing of samples from past Games by the IOC has focused mainly on athletes who could potentially compete in Rio and anyone found to have been doping will be banned from those Games.

Several Russian medallists are reportedly among those positive Beijing 2008 Games re-tests, including high jumper Anna Chicherova who won a bronze medal in China and went on to claim gold in London.

Russia says eight athletes positive in London 2012 re-tests | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sport-doping-russia-idUSKCN0YJ0GP)

“We are improving every day,” said Don Catlin, a veteran of the antidoping movement who helped supervise testing at every Olympics from 1984-2012.

Catlin said manufacturers of mass spectrometers, the instruments that are used to analyze urine samples, continue to come out with increasingly sensitive equipment that allows scientists to detect traces of performance enhancing drugs in ever-lower concentrations. Since the concentration of drugs lessens over time, new testing techniques, or in this case, retesting techniques, allow for the detection of drugs that were taken days, or even weeks ahead of the competition.

“The technology draws back the time period when an athlete has to stop taking drugs to avoid getting caught,” Catlin said. However, Catlin added that even with the new technology, scientists are only able to find erythropoietin, or EPO, which athletes use to increase oxygen capacity, if it has been taken during the previous two days. Other substances, including certain anabolic steroids, can only be seen if they have been taken during the previous two weeks.

New Tests Uncover Rash of Doping at Beijing Games - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/ioc-to-ban-dozens-of-athletes-from-rio-olympics-for-doping-1463501203)

Andy_S
10th Jul 2016, 22:07
As someone who was at 8 games at the Euro's in France the blame Russia for ALL violence in Football is laughable and pathethic.

No one, absolutely no one blames the Russians for all the violence at Euro 2016. But they were by far the worst offenders, with a degree of organisation and commitment which was frightening.

Isn't it funny how everything quietened down once Russia had been eliminated.....

The most laughable and pathetic thing is your uncritical support for Russia and the Russians......

MrSnuggles
11th Jul 2016, 14:23
Hi Kulverstukas!

I don't know if you know this but in Sweden there has been a debate about this ban of Russian athletes and how to react to it. I just wish to summarise what has been said.

1) The problem is the evidence that Russian State has been sanctioning doping. Nobody denies the doping problem in sports generally. The problem is that is is conducted by the State.
This makes for moral judgement:
1a) When State supported, the athletes that wishes to compete doping free can be prohibited from doing so, because State can withdraw support for that athlete.
1b) When State supported there is evidence that State may put State interest before athlete interest. East Germany is a good example of this. Many medals were won to the State but the athletes suffered enormously. Especially women became sterile and many died young and cancer is common in survivors.
1c) This questions how State should care for its citizens. In Sweden the reasoning is that State should promote health and discourage from intake of dangerous substances.

2) It is not really fair to athletes to be banned because they live in a State that encourages intake of dangerous substances. It is not the individual athlete's fault that State wants them to dope. Every individual athlete just does what will promote his/her carrer the best, and if the State provide illegal means to promote that carrier, the athlete will use it.

PERSONALLY
I think it would be best to ban doctors, ministers and coaches known to have been involved in doping. They should be prohibited from sports for life. The athletes are sometimes scapegoats and the doping doctors continue working. This system should be applied to all sports, in all countries. Sadly it is only the Russian athletes that suffer now.

I know that Russian athletes that has clean records can apply to compete for Russia in this Rio Olympics. I think that is somewhat fair, considering the situation.

However, this Rio Olympics has the potential to be a true disaster. Maybe the positive side of this ban is that the Zika virus doesn't get to Russia.

Lonewolf_50
11th Jul 2016, 15:03
However, this Rio Olympics has the potential to be a true disaster. Maybe the positive side of this ban is that the Zika virus doesn't get to Russia. There's a silver lining to a cloud, if one looks hard enough.

Kulverstukas
11th Jul 2016, 18:51
The problem is the evidence that Russian State has been sanctioning doping.

The evidence is oral confession of couple of athletes and one sport functionary who flee to US from investigation they faced in Russia and who insist that they are innocent and it was KGB and Stalin... errrr... Putin who push them to dope themselves? Ok, highly believable. No need of presumption of innocence, this pesky russkies (and their bloody dictatorship aggressive warmonger state) deserve it.

I know that Russian athletes that has clean records can apply to compete for Russia in this Rio Olympics. I think that is somewhat fair, considering the situation.

Yes, they can in case they spent last 10 years outside of bloody Russia and sign renouncement of Russian flag i.e. will not represent Russia at Games.

Kulverstukas
11th Jul 2016, 19:01
PS: I remember very well that Olympics was invented as "amateur" games and professional athletes was not allowed to participate. Seems this was totally forgotten around 80th of last century and now it's of no more inspiration to common people than experience of F1 races pilots to owners of Ford Focus.

MrSnuggles
11th Jul 2016, 20:37
Kulverstukas

Please do not think everything is a conspiracy against Russia. This thinking is dangerous because you can see enemies where there are no enemies. Please do not think of me as an enemy.

Sometimes a State does things that are not great. But great States can acknowledge this and say "Yes, this happened, now we will do something about it". I do not want a further discussion about who did what. I think the WADA commission did a proper job investigating the allegations. I have read parts of it and I sincerely believe this is as unbiased you can get.

Please do not confuse a WADA commission into doping as an attack on yourself. Sometimes your homeland does bad things. I know Sweden has done some really questionable things in the past. It is what it is. No need to get all worked up about that.

G-CPTN
18th Jul 2016, 14:21
The McLaren Report into Russian doping accusations has found these four key findings:-

The Ministry of Sport directed, controlled and oversaw the manipulation of athlete’s analytical results or sample swapping, with the active participation and assistance of the FSB
The Moscow Laboratory personnel did not have a choice in whether to be involved in the State directed system
The Moscow Laboratory personnel were required to be part of the State directed system that enabled Russian athletes to compete while engaged in the use of doping substances.
The Moscow Laboratory was the final failsafe protective shield in the State directed doping regime

Russia operated doping programme at Sochi Winter Olympics in 2014 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/36823453).

G-CPTN
18th Jul 2016, 16:50
If the drug analysis tests were based on urine samples, why don't they check the DNA?

And where did they source the 'clean' samples of urine?
Did they have official donors (or did they just use lemonade)

I think we should be told.

NutLoose
18th Jul 2016, 16:56
Personally I would let them attend on the proviso that they would all be fully tested and screened on arrival as they got off the plane, surely they could set up a full screening facility free from Russian influence, that way those that have been caught up in this, but have not taken anything will not see their dream flushed down a toilet.

Tankertrashnav
18th Jul 2016, 18:06
G-CPTN - according to the report, athletes provided their own "clean" sample prior to the games, after a period of laying off the drugs. This sample was then frozen for use later, allowing the athletes to resume their drug regime in the run-up to the games. These clean samples were then substituted for the "dirty" ones, and it is the tampering of so called "tamper-proof" sample bottles which was eventually exposed.

By the way I'm offering my usual odds of a quid to a squashed sausage that Russia wont be kicked out of the Rio Olympics, even though they richly deserve it. Nobody is going to upset Vlad that much!

racedo
18th Jul 2016, 19:23
No one, absolutely no one blames the Russians for all the violence at Euro 2016. But they were by far the worst offenders, with a degree of organisation and commitment which was frightening.
Isn't it funny how everything quietened down once Russia had been eliminated.....
The most laughable and pathetic thing is your uncritical support for Russia and the Russians......

Laughable in the extreme......................Russian fans were the ones not fighting with police in Marseille as the tournament started.

Couple of hundreds Russian fans make thousands of English fans run.............. have seen this before 30 odd years ago and it was Juventus fans running from Liverpool fans in Heysel.

Great thing about tournament football is amount of people from all nation you meet.

Surprising is number of English people who will go to any game provided England are not playing because of the jingoism and hate they see there.

One guy who claimed to be 65 said he grew up going to England games and now avoids because he said he puts on an England shirt and people avoid him be it in a train or pub or anywhere.

I was in Lens for a couple of games and amazing the bars were open and no issues, when England came to town the bars were shut.

England fans have rep for causing trouble and they live down to it again and again.
Russsian ultras have nothing on them and as someone who travelled to Lansdowne rd in 1995 I can readily remember the fans behaviour.

London media great at blaming Russians, it was a great way of hiding a shambolic performance.

racedo
18th Jul 2016, 19:26
Personally I would let them attend on the proviso that they would all be fully tested and screened on arrival as they got off the plane, surely they could set up a full screening facility free from Russian influence, that way those that have been caught up in this, but have not taken anything will not see their dream flushed down a toilet.

I would test every single athlete as they arrive and least 3 times during games.

The clean athletes would be happy for this to happen which means its not going to happen.

G-CPTN
18th Jul 2016, 19:38
Russia is going to carry out its own investigation into the alleged doping affair.

Comments have been made discrediting the 'author' of this report.

ExXB
19th Jul 2016, 10:27
Article 6: The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team events and not between countries.

Not true.

Article 2: The mission of the IOC is to promote Olympism throughout the world and to lead the Olympic Movement. This includes upholding ethics in sports, encouraging participation in sports, ensuring the Olympic Games take place on a regular period, protecting the Olympic Movement, and encouraging and supporting the development of sport.

Fail

The Olympics should be suspended until they can be held in accordance with the IOC charter. Get rid of the Jingoism.

Oh, and forbid sponsors that have nothing to do with sport. Coca Cola, Mac do-do, Budwiser (the American one)

Kulverstukas
19th Jul 2016, 12:01
We just need new format - Farmlympic and Techlympic. As our world now resembles more Ancient Rome than Ancient Greece, we need Gladiator games, not Olympic ones.

And no controls and no rules. Winner will takes it all.

Lonewolf_50
19th Jul 2016, 14:34
Oh, and forbid sponsors that have nothing to do with sport. Coca Cola, Mac do-do, Budwiser (the American one)
Please do keep up, it's now the Belgian one as ImBev owns it. :p

Tankertrashnav
19th Jul 2016, 16:28
Just heard that the IOC havent made their minds up yet but are looking into the legal position!

I reckon my quid is safe (see my last post)

Peter-RB
20th Jul 2016, 10:57
I think it safe to say, most Rooshiens have been bent since the Normal days of Stalin, Brawn and Bullet heads (both types) will always persuade anyone "they are right" so normally(?) aspiring Athletes will always be against the Bloc one way or another.

I would allow them to attend..but as others have stated, Test them on the tarmac at arrival times...that would clear some minds..possibly Vlad would invade some country for that sort of treatment, but it would show the rest of the World the Olympics should be respected as a totally clean and upstanding set of Games and rules..!

Lonewolf_50
20th Jul 2016, 13:42
It isn't just the Russians (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/to-avoid-drug-cheat-embarrassment-olympic-medal-ceremonies-could-be-for-show-only/2016/07/15/6a39a7a8-49d0-11e6-acbc-4d4870a079da_story.html). I heard a summary of the linked article on the radio this morning. For example, 8 athletes were stripped of medals after the 2012 London Olympics.
Pishchalnikova was one of eight medal winners in London who subsequently were stripped of their honors because they were caught doping. Pishchalnikova stood out among those stripped of medals because she was one of the Russian athletes who blew the whistle (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/16/sports/olympics/world-anti-doping-agency-russia-cheating.html?_r=0) on a systematic program in which Russia filled its track and field athletes with all manner of drugs for performance-enhancing purposes
And before that ...
Drug cheating is universal among countries that can afford it. At least eight medal winners from six countries were stripped of their awards from the 2008 Summer Games in Beijing because of drugs. The 2004 Summer Games in Athens resulted in at least a baker’s dozen athletes asked to return their medals, including two U.S. winners, cyclist Tyler Hamilton and sprinter Crystal Cox. Hamilton was discovered to have blood-doped; Cox admitted to using steroids. Mind you, one of the first to be stripped of a medal wasn't exactly using performance enhancing drugs ... I'd say the IOC went silly in the wrong direction on this one.
... 1968, when the Games first started testing for drugs it ruled unfair. That summer at the Mexico City Olympics, Swedish modern pentathlete Hans-Gunnar Liljenwall lost his medal after testing positive for alcohol. He imbibed. Two beers. The farce has been playing out for a while ...
After all, maybe the most infamous tarnished Olympic medal ceremony followed the men’s 100-meter track final at the 1988 Seoul Games. Canada’s Ben Johnson beat American Carl Lewis to the finish but two days later failed a drug test. Olympic bosses got the gold back from Johnson and, in a private ceremony in an office under the grandstand of Olympic Stadium, gave it to Lewis.
Blackistone's larger point was that medal awards should be delayed until confirmation of "clean" comes through. Not sure if that's the way to go, but he also pointed out that Rio's drug lab may not be up to the task.
WADA shuttered the lab last month, saying it had failed to conform to international testing standards. If the lab isn’t up to snuff by the Games’ start, athletes’ samples may have to be shipped off the continent to be tested, making the process that much more complicated and in danger of compromise.

MrSnuggles
20th Jul 2016, 16:38
Hah, that race in Seoul was totally dirty. There was only two clean athletes participating: Robson da Silva (BRA) and another bloke I don't remember the name of.

FloJo never got caught, but OMG did she shatter some confirmed doping records (by East Germans, never caught in competition!!), hmmm? Not even admitted doper Marion Jones (never caught in competition!!) has been near her times.That flying Dutch woman is suspect, but well, you know, competition testing etc...

China had a doping boost in the early 90's if anyone remembers. Fortunately they were caught red handed during swimming competition in Perth 1998 (a whole bag of HGH and syringes for the whole team!) and doping cases have been somewhat more moderate since then. I don't recall there being an independent investigation if there was a state sponsored thing, but the doping was evident through lots of sports, particularly women's endurance sports like running, swimming, etc.

Sometimes I entertain the idea that during an Olympic year, WADA should do some completely random testing out of competition say four months before the games. Steroids take around one month to clear so four months prior you should get the best results.

Or just do what Kulverstukas said. One event with testing, another without. They do that in bodybuilding already.

Kulverstukas
20th Jul 2016, 16:52
Or just do what Kulverstukas said.

You see, ancient Olympics was for ordinary people and winner get olive wreath. Gladiator's games was for professionals and it was all about money. Guess which contemporary "Olympic Games" are?

obgraham
20th Jul 2016, 17:50
I don't know why anyone pays attention to these "Games" any more.

To me it's just a litany of televised sob stories interspersed with some rigged sporting events.

All for the benefit of a clique of international ne'er-do-wells still mad because royalty is dying out.

Tankertrashnav
21st Jul 2016, 00:03
All for the benefit of a clique of international ne'er-do-wells still mad because royalty is dying out.

I think you've just defined "non sequitur". What the heck has the supposed demise of royalty got to do with the Olympics? Mind you I agree up to a point - I only watched the opening ceremony at the last lot in London and didn't watch much of the running and jumping about.

obgraham
21st Jul 2016, 01:34
TTN If you ever watched the disgusting Juan Antonio Samaranch you'd make the connection. Insisted on being addressed as "Your Excellency" and eventually got the King of Spain to make him some sort of nobility.

He and many other ex-royals and jobless elites filled the places on the IOC for decades. The place is still run like a private club, funded by other people's money (and bribes).

Uncle Fred
21st Jul 2016, 03:20
As vocal as I am in expressing what I think about the Russian contingent's state sponsored doping program, I have to admit that something caught my eye that reminds me that this nasty business is spread thick and wide.

The U.S. recently held their athletics trials in Eugene, Oregon. From that Tyson Gay has been named as one of the six participants for the 4x100m heats and finals (all six get a medal if the team wins one even though only four of course ran in the final).

The U.S. took a silver in this event in London behind the Jamaicans who nipped in at a new world record pace. Well...they sort of took a silver--that is until it was stripped of the team after Gay tested positive.

So the gent loses a medal for five of his teammates and yet is being sent to Rio. As I said, as odious as the Russian program is with doping, there is enough fetid behavior to go around.

Uncle Fred
21st Jul 2016, 03:21
If you ever watched the disgusting Juan Antonio Samaranch Unfortunately ob I have had that misfortune. If there was ever a gent upon whom the goodness of breathing oxygen was wasted it was him.

fitliker
21st Jul 2016, 04:02
Choose a city famous for its violence,
Throw in a virus that nobody knows much about ,
Empty sewage into a pond with such a slow flush rate it would almost be called a stagnant water source,
Then disinvite the Russians ?
A recipe for failure.
They are really trying hard to lose money on the games this year.




It will be boring without the main attraction of the rest of the world kicking the Russians ass at spear chucking and throwing heavy lumps around a field between Coca Cola ads .

sitigeltfel
21st Jul 2016, 07:39
A recipe for failure.
They are really trying hard to lose money on the games this year.

Not to worry. The "commission payments" for the top people are already lodged in the offshore accounts.

MrSnuggles
21st Jul 2016, 09:13
fitliker
Choose a city famous for its violence,
Throw in a virus that nobody knows much about ,
Empty sewage into a pond with such a slow flush rate it would almost be called a stagnant water source,
Then disinvite the Russians ?

This was hilarious! You forgot the fact that Brazil already are heavy in debt from the football world cup, imagine the heat they are gonna get if this fails to revenue too!

Tankertrashnav
21st Jul 2016, 10:22
obgraham - yes I see the connection, now you have made it a bit clearer.

I am delighted to see on Wiki that of the 30 or so honours and awards that this sleazeball received from countries as far apart as the USSR and The Philippines not one came from the United Kingdom. God knows our honours system is far from perfect, but it seems we at least have some standards!

racedo
21st Jul 2016, 20:00
I am delighted to see on Wiki that of the 30 or so honours and awards that this sleazeball received from countries as far apart as the USSR and The Philippines not one came from the United Kingdom. God knows our honours system is far from perfect, but it seems we at least have some standards!

Lord Coe

Lord Archer

broadreach
21st Jul 2016, 23:22
Isn't it black and white? Cheat and you're out? And if you happen to be on th side who's been proven as cheaters, you're out too?

Peter-RB
22nd Jul 2016, 06:20
Seems like the Rooshians are Out of said Game's.... But I dont think we have heard the end of this yet..!:sad:

BlankBox
22nd Jul 2016, 16:39
...new numbers in

https://www.olympic.org/news/second-wave-of-reanalysis-reveals-banned-substances-in-45-athletes-from-beijing-and-london

...very weird totals and sample sizes ??

Kulverstukas
24th Jul 2016, 15:30
Shit! It was a great hope that all this rat races including Soccer 2018 will be abandoned for better use of country powers :(

Congrats for professionals in sports, their money will continue to flow.

Tankertrashnav
24th Jul 2016, 17:05
By the way I'm offering my usual odds of a quid to a squashed sausage that Russia wont be kicked out of the Rio Olympics, even though they richly deserve it. Nobody is going to upset Vlad that much! (18th July)

Well my quid is safe - I always knew it would be :*

VP959
24th Jul 2016, 17:20
Reading through the conditions that have been imposed, I can't see that there will be many Russian athletes there, though. All those who have been caught cheating (which seems to be all the track and field athletes plus a fair few others) will be rightfully banned, as will any that subsequently test positive for any banned substance in the ongoing sample re-testing process.

This seems pretty much in line with the policy that applies to every country, so seems fair to me. If you cheat, you're banned, no matter which country you come from.

The only uncomfortable feeling I have is that I strongly suspect that some, maybe a lot, of Russian athletes were using banned substances either as a consequence of deception, or because they felt under pressure to do so in order to get selected to represent their country.

I wonder how many banned Russian athletes knew the full extent of the way their own countries sports regulator was behaving towards them?

meadowrun
24th Jul 2016, 17:32
I wonder how many banned Russian athletes knew the full extent of the way their own countries sports regulator was behaving towards them?


Their whole lives revolve around their sports.
I would know if I was doping, where the material was coming from and the intent.

VP959
24th Jul 2016, 17:53
I would as well, I'd like to think, but all athletes use supplements of one sort or another, so how do you actually know, for sure, that the particular supplements that your coach is giving you are 100% legal?

meadowrun
24th Jul 2016, 18:01
I'm not in that position but I think I would never trust my or any coach to give me anonymous drugs/supplements. It seems a bit like the risk of getting ruffies or GHB at a shady bar somewhere, over and over again.


If you are serious about your sport, want to compete fairly and not run any risk of being banned does it not make sense to have an approved list of supplements from the governing body/bodies and handle them yourself?

VP959
24th Jul 2016, 18:23
What you say makes perfect sense to me, but were Russian athletes in the same position, with regard to the freedom to choose a coach they trusted, or did they have to use the state-run coaching system in order to get a chance to compete internationally?

I remember the East German system years ago didn't let any of its athletes know what they were being given, and we now know that some of them suffered with poor health later in life as a consequence of a state-sponsored system.

It seems to me possible that the Russian system was similar, as we know now that doping was endemic there and managed on a large scale by the very body that was supposed to be ensuring that no Russian athletes broke the rules.

Kulverstukas
24th Jul 2016, 18:25
use the state-run coaching system in order to get a chance to compete internationally

Wut? Did you think also that if they refuse, KGB will take them and all their relatives to GULAG?

meadowrun
24th Jul 2016, 18:29
I remember the East German system years ago didn't let any of its athletes know what they were being given, and we now know that some of them suffered with poor health later in life as a consequence of a state-sponsored system.


Yes, I believe that was the origin of the trans-gender phenomenon. Some really tough looking females abounded.


If I were being nasty I would say Merkels probably had something to do with it.


Kulverstukas,


Are the Russian amateur athletes all trained by state provided coaches - i.e. no private, independent coaches?

Kulverstukas
24th Jul 2016, 18:37
:eek:Yes, I believe that was the origin of the trans-gender phenomenon. Some really tough looking females abounded.


Wow! Are Brothers... Er... Sisters Williams of DDR origin? :eek:

MrSnuggles
25th Jul 2016, 13:45
Kulverstukas,

LOL, you got a great line there.

But seriously, do you know if Russian athletes train independent of state coaches?

In Sweden there are no "state coaches" per se, every athlete has his/her own club and trains with the club coaches. Some athletes go abroad and train with club coaches there. Some have enough money to pay a personal coach. Every sport has its own "landslag" (national team, I'd guess you call it?). The landslag consists of the best Swedish athletes in that particular sport (yes, we even have a landslag in boule). The ones gouverning each landslag is appointed by the Swedish association of coaches for that particular sport. Take swimming, all Swedish swimmers have their own coach, via a club or (very seldom!) individually. All those coaches meet and agree who will lead the Swedish swimming landslag. The swimmers are then required to do certain meet times to qualify for the landslag. This years Olympic caused controversy in Swedish swimming because the qualifying times to join the landslag to the Olympics were tighter than the IOC set out. Therese Alshammar made a time clearly below the IOC qualifying standard, but it didn't meet the Swedish Olympic Committee (sp?) standard. (She later cut her time and made it to the team, as one of only three athletes to compete in six Olympic games!)

Kulverstukas
25th Jul 2016, 17:20
But seriously, do you know if Russian athletes train independent of state coaches?



Every sport has its own "landslag" (national team, I'd guess you call it?).

Something similar is there if we take legal part. But not forget, a majority of sport leagues/clubs here was founded in early 20s of last century, and in Soviet time money for them goes partly from ticket sales and membership fee, but majority from state directly or state owned enterprises (as Spartak was known as "meat" because they was financed by named after Mikoyan sausage factory) of army (CSKA, aka "horses") or police (Dinamo, aka "cops" or "garbage") etc.

Now clubs and leagues are partly selfowned, partly private owned or owned by some huge enterprises like Gazprom or RZD. Still state on the federal and municipal level has entries in budget for spending on sport - mostly on infrastructure.

So legally, neither in the USSR nor in RF coaches of "sport of top achievements" athletes as it politically correctly named or professionals as it really is, are state employees. Even more, now any high rank athlete is an enterprise of making huge money, so their coaches, doctors, agents etc. are on salaries paid from money of their ward.

But to rise from just promising to top athlete takes a time and low level sport is not profitable (membership fee or sports school payments can't cover all expenses and however can't cover cost of infrastructure - sport halls, swimming pools, ice arenas etc.) so you can safely assume that major part of this came from state in the form of tax redistribution (and it's exactly as "state owned" as majority of schools and hospitals).

There is also a lot of sport bureaucrats on state salary. But they not directly involved into working with athletes - they redistribute money, makes legal documents, organize sporting events, work with foreign sport bureaucrats etc...

Lonewolf_50
25th Jul 2016, 18:00
There is also a lot of sport bureaucrats on state salary. But they not directly involved into working with athletes - they redistribute money, makes legal documents, organize sporting events, work with foreign sport bureaucrats etc... Like Thomas Bach (http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/20160722/ioc-president-has-sports-personal-links-to-russia). :8
Since he won Olympic gold in 1976, Bach's chosen sport of fencing has been transformed, most recently by Russian billionaire Alisher Usmanov, a Putin ally who has pumped large sums of his own money into the sport over eight years as president of the International Fencing Federation. That money has increased the profile of one of the more niche sports on the Olympic program, making for a bigger media presence and glitzier competitions.


The Mail has its opinion (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3706067/Was-Russia-rescued-Olympics-ban-Putin-s-Poodle-Games-chief-fire-Moscow-s-doping-let-off.html), but as it's the Mail, I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Kulverstukas
25th Jul 2016, 18:09
Oww! He was in the same sport as me!

racedo
25th Jul 2016, 19:04
What you say makes perfect sense to me, but were Russian athletes in the same position, with regard to the freedom to choose a coach they trusted, or did they have to use the state-run coaching system in order to get a chance to compete internationally?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Cook_(taekwondo)#Moldovan_citizenship

State sponsored coaches and programs ?

Funny when you do something other than the state sponsored one they boot you out.

Kulverstukas
25th Jul 2016, 19:15
LOL, Wolf! I know that Putin is a God of Ukrainians - everything bad in the universe they attributed to his long and bloody arms, but seems now he became also UK and US evil deity as well. New Loki on the eight-legged Sleipbear ;)

Lonewolf_50
25th Jul 2016, 19:55
LOL, Wolf! I know that Putin is a God of Ukrainians - everything bad in the universe they attributed to his long and bloody arms, but seems now he became also UK and US evil deity as well. New Loki on the eight-legged Sleipbear ;) Kulver, the problem is the old "guilt by association" bit that people raise up to try and make a point. (See all of those old photographs of Rummy shaking Saddam's hand when he was Sec Def for Reagan in the 80's, which people with an agenda pretend means that Rummy and Saddam were close friends. Rubbish. Politics, start to finish).


Since Mr Bach is IOC head, people with an axe to grind will try to sell this as an obvious case of Mr. Putin getting a favor. etc. That's why I said "take with a grain of salt" since Mr. Bach isn't an idiot. He's going to know that his having business interests in Russia will of course raise questions. That doesn't mean he'll go out of his way to become the next Sepp Blatter. Just as likely he'll be twice as careful to keep it all above board.

The recent IOC decision was not to suspend the whole Russian contingent in Rio, which is what had been proposed by some. (As I understand the news, the track team is still screwed).

MrSnuggles
26th Jul 2016, 10:02
I think it is good that those with previous offenses are banned, but as I said before I would like for all coaches and doctors involved to be held responsible too. And this in regard to ALL sports.

Otherwise we could just do a Tech Olympics and a Farm Olympics as per Kulverstukas suggestion. Tech would be non tested, Farm would be tested. It works well in bodybuilding already as I mentioned.

Kulverstukas
26th Jul 2016, 15:15
I think it is good that those with previous offenses are banned

You miss that it's "those with previous offenses who want's participate under Russian flag". Total dope screening is also for Russians ONLY. Also hysterical campaign in UK and US media tells you everything about "only wish for clear sport, no politics" - from "for sure IOC will ban Russians from now and forever, we have reliable source" before IOC decision up to "Russian team will be no more than 20-30 athletes from 305" today.

VP959
26th Jul 2016, 16:44
You miss that it's "those with previous offenses who want's participate under Russian flag". Total dope screening is also for Russians ONLY. Also hysterical campaign in UK and US media tells you everything about "only wish for clear sport, no politics" - from "for sure IOC will ban Russians from now and forever, we have reliable source" before IOC decision up to "Russian team will be no more than 20-30 athletes from 305" today.
My understanding is that the retrospective sample testing that is still going on, from the Beijing and London Olympics, is on all samples available, not just those from Russian Athletes. Russian athletes are being 100% tested for this Olympics simply because more of them have been caught using banned substances than from any other nation.

There's no big "anti-Russia" conspiracy here; if any other Olympic nation had been caught cheating on such a massive scale, with the active collusion of that states anti-doping authority, then they would get the same treatment. In fact I suspect that if it was any country other than Russia there would have been a total ban, with no concessions at all.

I understand your patriotism, and admire it, but there is no escaping from the facts here. There is overwhelming proof that doping was going on with the collusion of state authorities that were supposed to prevent it. That is just wrong, no matter which country does it.

Kulverstukas
26th Jul 2016, 19:23
but there is no escaping from the facts here.

Did you mean that for example Mail articles about IOC head, their "leak" about Russia total ban from games and today's another "leak" about "only less than 10% fraction of Russia national team will go through individual screening" is fair play and will be at the same level of screaming if it will be France or India teams?

I don't advocate dope powered athletes. But I can't not point out at huge holes in "WADA investigation" and huge political bias in this whole dope business. It has some bitter taste as previous FIFAgate and Strauss-Kahn maid's "oral sample" or Eurovision "voting".

MrSnuggles
26th Jul 2016, 19:37
Kulverstukas

Please don't get all conspiracy on this. The testing will continue on all samples, not only Russians. WADA wanted to ban all Russian athletes but the IOC overruled it and said that clean athletes can join. ESTIMATIONS are that about 10-15% of those participating from the last Olympics will be clean.

And yes, I am 100% positive that this procedure would take place even if it was France or India.

Also, whatever the Daily Mail writes, please understand that that is the worst of the worst, it's not journalism, it's sensationalism, utter garbage, pure filth and disgusting lies. Sometimes even made up stories goes into that paper. Sometimes they report on things people really need to know, like the shoes Kim Kardashian wore yesterday. Never trust a thing in that piece of shit paper. If you want to read about Rod Stewarts love life, MAYBE that paper is for you. But they probably lie about that too.

BTW, just read that Putin has assigned a 81 year old guy to lead the anti doping work in Russia. Thoughts on this? Wouldn't it be better to have someone younger? Like, 50 at least? This guy seems well connected though, a former member of the IOC somehow during the USSR era. Don't remember his name, sorry.

Kulverstukas
26th Jul 2016, 20:20
Putin has assigned a 81 year old guy

LOL! Putin again! Did Obama assign Craig Reedie then? Or "assign" Hillary to be his "ancestor"? Please drop this "Putin this, Putin that" stuff ;)

MrSnuggles
26th Jul 2016, 20:46
Kulverstukas

But he is your leader, right? So isn't it he who is supposed to do those things? I read this in Moscow Times:

The Russian Olympic Committee (ROC) announced that they were creating an “independent commission on doping” as recommended by Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday. ROC honorary president Vitaly Smirnov, who is set to chair the new committee [...] Smirnov, who held the post of Soviet Sports Minister in the 1980s, named several Russian IOC members, former athletes, business tycoons and government officials as the commission’s new members, Sports.ru reported. The general director of the state-owned Channel One, Konstantin Ernst, would also sit on the committee, Smirnov said.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/world-reacts-to-russias-olympic-reprieve-54713

Please inform me if I am mistaken. I would be happy to learn how it works!

Kulverstukas
26th Jul 2016, 21:07
Head of ROC will create this committee, exactly as IOC create WADA. He also will assign it's head (or manage election for him if it will be decided this way). Head of the State can "suggest" who will be suitable for such place but can't directly "appoint" him, no more than he can "appoint" head of ROC.

MrSnuggles
27th Jul 2016, 10:12
Aha, so this Smirnov guy was appointed by the duma?

Kulverstukas
27th Jul 2016, 10:49
Not Duma, but by the head of ROC and yes, based on president recommendation. Both ROC and this new agency/committee are NGO so neither Duma nor President has direct power over them (in legal terms).

As about previous instance of anti-dope agency (RUSADA) and it's subcontractor "Moscow lab" with it's ex-head Rodchenkov, you can check Russian wiki page on him (google translated) to make your own opinion. His career makes a bit sour taste about his motives and his reliability as a sole source of information about "huge Russian government-driven country-wide dope program backed by KGB/FSB power".

Kulverstukas
27th Jul 2016, 19:05
but the IOC overruled it and said that clean athletes can join

As an example, The World Rowing Federation, FISA, bans 22 from 28 members of Russian team not because any single of 547 of their tests was positive, but because they decided that any test done not outside Russia accounts as positive.

How it differs for example from view that any Russian tourist crossed European border is KGB agent under cover and threat them this way?

MrSnuggles
27th Jul 2016, 22:42
Kulverstukas

As I understood it, some sport federations decided they didn't trust any tests done inside Russia, fearing they would be tampered with.

Doping is one thing. I think you know that noone thinks Russians in general are KGB spies, that's a whole different level than some athletes taking drugs and trying to get away with it. Does not compare.

Kulverstukas
27th Jul 2016, 22:55
I think you know that noone thinks Russians in general are KGB spies

Newer speak for everybody. If even Trump and Bach are "Putin puppets" how can you deny that every Russian is KGB agent (except those who fight Putin on US government funds). :}

With ban for athletes who already served their sentence for dope long ago and total denial of innocence presumption for the rest (and taking in account the promise that Russian athletes will be 100% screened) this federations decision just show that they are afraid that clear Russians can show good results and spoil this built impression that without dope Russians are weak as children compared to clear Americans.

MrSnuggles
27th Jul 2016, 23:31
I'm sorry but now I think you are overreacting a bit. With all respect, I honestly don't believe that sports federations want to exclude Russians to promote the US. I do believe however that they are afraid to lose sponsors. It's all about the money, my friend.

I never heard anyone say that Trump would be Putins puppet. From what I heard about Trump, I'm sure he himself believes that he will turn Putin into a puppet.

Kulverstukas
27th Jul 2016, 23:42
I never heard anyone say that Trump would be Putins puppet.

From what I read from US "right wing" media it's Hilary line of defense (or attack) recently.

obgraham
28th Jul 2016, 04:04
From what I read from US "right wing" media it's Hilary line of defense (or attack) recently.
Keep in mind, Kulver, that Obama and Putin despise each other in the deepest ways possible. So Hillary, by her association, will be tied to Obama's policies regarding Russia.

Along comes Trump, who truly believes that he can deal and negotiate with Putin, as they are both pretty self-centered, and probably understand each others' motives quite well.

Most Americans don't have any great ill will toward Russians, in fact we appreciate that you are willing to stand up for your beliefs and your interests. (Well, that Ukraine business was messy, but I digress.)

MrSnuggles
28th Jul 2016, 09:09
Yeah, be careful what you believe during election year in the US. And NEVER trust anything from Fox News. They are just as loathsome as Daily Mail.

Kulverstukas
28th Jul 2016, 09:51
Keep in mind, Kulver, that Obama and Putin despise each other in the deepest ways possible.

I highly doubt that in the serious top politic there is such things as personal hate or personal love. And that "understanding each other" works in this business at all. It's all must be balance of interests and most unsuccessful politic in our history was that who sells all our interest in foreign affairs for warm words from eastern leaders and piece of pizza (not far from beads and mirrors).

Also please understand that from our side of a pond we never ever will try to affect outcome of your elections or mess with them in any way other than orally comments your candidates position about us.

Kulverstukas
28th Jul 2016, 22:42
Yeah, be careful what you believe during election year in the US. And NEVER trust anything from Fox News. They are just as loathsome as Daily Mail.

I just has a 5 min of good laugh... Do not read, just look at the pictures (http://vbulahtin.livejournal.com/2645134.html). Hope it's not real American media but again Russian propaganda :}

obgraham
29th Jul 2016, 01:54
Good stuff in there, Kulver!

Uncle Fred
29th Jul 2016, 15:58
The Trump Cathedral is brilliant. Truly brilliant. :ok:

Kulverstukas
6th Aug 2016, 21:43
Ok, after total ban of Russia was not implemented, let us "leak" that at least Paralympics from Russia will be banned for ever and any games... Good old independent UK media.

And oh, noes! It's not a dope (http://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/biomedical/devices/olympic-athletes-try-zapping-their-brains-to-improve-sports-performance)!

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 08:49
Ok, after total ban of Russia was not implemented, let us "leak" that at least Paralympics from Russia will be banned for ever and any games... Good old independent UK media.

And oh, noes! It's not a dope (http://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/biomedical/devices/olympic-athletes-try-zapping-their-brains-to-improve-sports-performance)!
As I read the news, no decision has yet been made (as of 08:45 GMT, 7th August 2016).

Anything reported by the papers is just made up, as is often the case.

After all the scandal, it's interesting to see that the majority of Russian athletes are being allowed to complete. From the reports in the media you could be forgiven for thinking that it was only a minority that were dope-free.

This just supports the old adage, "never believe what you read in the papers".

MrSnuggles
7th Aug 2016, 09:39
I think it was good that it was not a blanket ban of all Russians. That would have been wrong. I saw the numbers and from memory, the original team would be something like 400 individuals, and about 300 of them can start? Don't recall the exact amount, sorry.

Just saw Katinka Hosszu crush the weird Chinese WR on 400 IM. Hmmm....

Kulverstukas
7th Aug 2016, 11:46
From the reports in the media you could be forgiven for thinking that it was only a minority that were dope-free.


That is what all this bullshit was about, isn't it? From billions of earth population who gives shit about Olympics 99% will remember that this pesky russies all are fed dopes by KGB and 1% which uses brain doesn't count.

Anything reported by the papers is just made up, as is often the case.

Or "propaganda" as we call it. Look at this German guy who is at the core of the scandal (or journalist investigation, as he calls it). If he is right and has a solid proofs on the case (about ALL Russians eats dope) why he is so hysterical in his reactions on any noncomplimentary question to him?

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 12:04
That is what all this bullshit was about, isn't it? From billions of earth population who gives shit about Olympics 99% will remember that this pesky russies all are fed dopes by KGB and 1% which uses brain doesn't count.



Or "propaganda" as we call it. Look at this German guy who is at the core of the scandal (or journalist investigation, as he calls it). If he is right and has a solid proofs on the case (about ALL Russians eats dope) why he is so hysterical in his reactions on any noncomplimentary question to him?
Well, it's a few more than 1% of Russian athletes who were caught doping. some of whom had been doing it for years, isn't it?

I agree that the media exaggerated, but this was (as far as I know) the first time in recent history that a state endorsed anti-doping body had been caught deliberately breaking the rules (accepting that countries like the former GDR did it for years back in the Soviet era).

A great deal of journalism is faked, poorly researched or state-influenced. All nations do it, even Russia. I can well remember reading Pravda 30 years ago; it bore about as much resemblance to reality as some of the media stories about Russian athletes and doping do today.

racedo
7th Aug 2016, 15:40
Well, it's a few more than 1% of Russian athletes who were caught doping. some of whom had been doing it for years, isn't it?

I agree that the media exaggerated, but this was (as far as I know) the first time in recent history that a state endorsed anti-doping body had been caught deliberately breaking the rules (accepting that countries like the former GDR did it for years back in the Soviet era).

A great deal of journalism is faked, poorly researched or state-influenced. All nations do it, even Russia. I can well remember reading Pravda 30 years ago; it bore about as much resemblance to reality as some of the media stories about Russian athletes and doping do today.

IOC acted correctly as what they saw WADA doing was chucking out presumption of innocence and blanket banning everybody.

Do I think Russians dope....................yup, does everybody else do it yup.

UK media seemingly didn't really want to talk much about UK cyclist missing dope tests.

UK now uses (abuses) Lottery funding to support athletes and do anything outside of it and they deselect.

Its why World #1 Aaron Cook got dumped in 2012 and now competes for Moldova.

Kulverstukas
7th Aug 2016, 16:13
Well, it's a few more than 1% of Russian athletes who were caught doping. some of whom had been doing it for years, isn't it?


1% refers to part of earth population which read media and think with it's own brain.

And yes Russian athletes used doping. And yes some top brass sport functionary was involved. State-driven? Putin and FSB was directly involved and makes orders? I'm highly doubt it. I know that for majority of westerns it's "proofed" because "The Times wrote about it" but if you want to make your own impression, just read russian wiki pages about Rodchenkov defector and Smirnovs whistleblowers. It's quite neutral but gives good overview of their background and can explain why they need to claim "KGB forced us".

ORAC
7th Aug 2016, 16:59
after total ban of Russia was not implemented, let us "leak" that at least Paralympics from Russia will be banned for ever and any games... Good old independent UK media. IPC statement banning all Russian Paralympic representation......

https://m.paralympic.org/news/ipc-suspends-russian-paralympic-committee-immediate-effect

Sir Philip Craven, IPC President, said: “This decision has placed a huge burden upon all our shoulders, but it’s a decision we’ve had to take in the best interests of the Paralympic Movement. Ultimately, as the global governing body for the Paralympic Movement, it is our responsibility to ensure fair competition, so that athletes can have confidence that they are competing on a level playing field. This is vital to the integrity and credibility of Paralympic sport, and in order to achieve this it is fundamental that each member abides by the rules.

Since the publication of the McLaren Report on 18 July our priority has been to establish the full facts in respect of Para sport. A decision of this magnitude must be evidence based and not influenced by the many and varied views of other people or organisations outside of the IPC and the Paralympic Movement. In particular, we have taken the necessary time to ask further questions of Professor McLaren and his investigation team, to await the results of samples undergoing further forensic examination and to invite the Russian Paralympic Committee to present its case to the IPC and enter into dialogue with the IPC Governing Board.

With the full facts to hand, we were deeply saddened to find that the State-sponsored doping programme that exists within Russian sport regrettably extends to Russian Para sport as well. Tragically this situation is not about athletes cheating a system, but about a State-run system that is cheating the athletes. The doping culture that is polluting Russian sport stems from the Russian government and has now been uncovered in not one, but two independent reports commissioned by the World Anti-Doping Agency. Our decision is driven by the need to hold our members accountable for their obligations. On the basis of the evidence we have, in the current environment our member the Russian Paralympic Committee cannot comply with the IPC’s Anti-Doping Code and the World Anti-Doping Code. Those obligations are crucial to the IPC’s guarantee of fair competition for all.

I believe the Russian government has catastrophically failed its Para athletes. Their medals over morals mentality disgusts me. The complete corruption of the anti-doping system is contrary to the rules and strikes at the very heart of the spirit of Paralympic sport. It shows a blatant disregard for the health and well-being of athletes and, quite simply, has no place in Paralympic sport. Their thirst for glory at all costs has severely damaged the integrity and image of all sport, and has certainly resulted in a devastating outcome for the Russian Paralympic Committee and Para athletes.

I have deep sympathy for Russian Para athletes who will miss out on the Rio 2016 Paralympic Games. They are part of a broken system and we sincerely hope that the changes that need to happen, do happen. Russia has some top-quality athletes across all sports and we look forward to the day when we can welcome the Russian Paralympic Committee back as a member safe in the knowledge that it is fulfilling all its obligations in order to ensure a level playing field for all.”

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 17:55
Well, that makes things very clear and it is NOT a media report either, but directly from the IPC President, so there is no "propaganda" at all, or bias from one or another nation out to criticise Russia, just a statement of hard facts from the international body that governs the Paralympic Games.

Uncle Fred
7th Aug 2016, 18:50
I agree VP. This is not a simple witch hunt but a serious matter.

BTW I cannot help but shake my head at the result in the women's 400IM last evevenin. I really hope that I am wrong on this but wow...

Kulverstukas
7th Aug 2016, 20:49
just a statement of hard facts from the international body that governs the Paralympic Games

You mean Regular Olympic lacks said "hard facts" or it was not "international body"? They both reference to the same WADA reports.

Cazalet33
7th Aug 2016, 21:03
Did a Russian paralympic athlete fail a metal detector test or something?

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 21:23
You mean Regular Olympic lacks said "hard facts" or it was not "international body"? They both reference to the same WADA reports.
I've not read the WADA reports (not sure they've been made fully public), so, ignoring the media (as this decision and statement was direct from the IPC President) there has to be a good reason for banning all the Russian Paralympic team and only banning some of the Russian Olympic Team.

Given that this decision is, without a doubt, going to cause a lot of controversy, one can only conclude that the evidence against paralympic athletes was more significant than the evidence against the rest of the Russian team.

Either way, it supports the view that that there has been widespread, state-endorsed, cheating. That may be unpalatable to many, particularly Russian citizens. I know that if it were GB citizens under the same shadow of accusations of state sponsored doping I'd feel protective and hope that it was untrue. However, the evidence seems clear - Russia was cheating on a large scale, aided and abetted by the state, and that is just not acceptable.

MrSnuggles
7th Aug 2016, 21:26
The WADA reports are freely available here

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/world-anti-doping-program/independent-commission-report-1

and here

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/world-anti-doping-program/independent-commission-report-2

ORAC
7th Aug 2016, 21:32
Actually, the IOC didn't make a decision at all, presumably because of all the possible financial liabilities - they deferred the decision to each individual sports body - leaving them to make a decision with no time to review anything. Hence the Athletics federation, which was at the heart of the investigation, banning the Russians, but the rest with having no time to establish a legal reason to do so. The IOC being left with their hands clean - part from copious amounts of cash.... And slime.

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 21:42
The WADA reports are freely available here

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/world-anti-doping-program/independent-commission-report-1

and here

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/world-anti-doping-program/independent-commission-report-2
Thanks for those links.

This excerpt sums up the fundamental issue well:

An athlete’s decision not to participate [in doping] is likely to leave him or her without access to top calibre coaches and thus the opportunity to excel. This acceptance and, at times, expectation of cheating and disregard for testing and other globally accepted anti-doping efforts, indicate a fundamentally flawed mindset that is deeply ingrained in all levels of Russian athletics. The mindset is “justified” on the theory that everyone else is cheating as well.

Kulverstukas
7th Aug 2016, 22:20
It's a statement. Do you know about difference between statement and proof? Reports are based on information from one ex-head of RUSADA (twice was here under investigation on drug dealings and then fired and fled to US) and one athlete (banned for dope by RUSADA in 2013, and husband of whom, who was fired from RUSADA in 2011, was also under investigation here).

The mindset is “justified” on the theory that everyone else is cheating as well.

Please convince me that all non-Russian athletes are clean and honest and this mindset is totally wrong.

MrSnuggles
7th Aug 2016, 22:25
Kulverstukas

I think many people before me has repeated that doping is wide spread.

The problem is that in Russia, it seems the State was involved.

G-CPTN
7th Aug 2016, 22:33
I think many people before me has repeated that doping is wide spread.

The problem is that in Russia, it seems the State was involved.
Well, if you are going to do it you might as well make it official and do it properly, rather than have amateurs cock it up . . .

G-CPTN
7th Aug 2016, 23:43
A Russian journalist (Dmitry Babich of Sputnik International News Agency) on BBC Radio Five repeating his belief that the McLaren Report is unsubstantiated and all allegations do not stand up to examination (no photographs, no double witnesses).

Russian Paralympic Committee Received No Proofs of McLaren Report Allegations (http://sputniknews.com/sport/20160807/1044034151/russia-paralympic-committee.html)


Sputnik is the successor of Voice of Russia - which in turn was the successor to Radio Moscow.

Tankertrashnav
7th Aug 2016, 23:59
Interesting that the Russian word "sputnik" means "fellow traveller", a phrase which has unfortunate connotations in English. Slightly less reliable than the Daily Mail (and that's saying summat!)

G-CPTN
8th Aug 2016, 12:24
I believe that I heard the representative of the Russian Paralympics (Vladimir Lukin?) saying that "Most of the competitors are completely clean."

Vladimir Lukin added that the overwhelming majority of Russian Paralympians are not guilty of doping. (http://www.itv.com/news/2016-08-08/russian-paralympic-committee-president-ban-on-paralympians-competing-at-rio-unfair/)

Martin the Martian
8th Aug 2016, 13:46
Well, if Sputnik have said so then it must be true.:suspect:

And well done the IPC for having the balls to make the decision that the IOC skipped on. Many will miss out, but maybe they ought to ask their own authorities why this has happened.

ORAC
8th Aug 2016, 18:19
An explanation was given for the difference decisions between the IOC and IPC on TV today, I cannot aver to its veracity, but pass it on for information.

The structures of the two organisations is different. The IPC is a federation of national organisations, once the Russian organisation was adjudged to have been complicit in concealing performance enhancing additives and banned, all Russian Paralympic competitions were automatically banned - no participation outside their national organisation being possible.

The IOC is a federation of sporting bodies, e.g. The International Athletics Association etc. Hence, there being no exclusively Russian body which they could ban, they had to devolve the decision to their individual federated bodies which do consist of national bodies to do such banning as they saw fit. Some did, some did it on an individual basis, and some claimed they had been given insufficient time to obtain a concensus and reach a decision.

Kulverstukas
8th Aug 2016, 18:48
but maybe they ought to ask their own authorities why this has happened.

You hope they came to red square, make Maidan, burn Kremlin and overthrow Dictator Vlad and his KGB nukers?

VP959
8th Aug 2016, 19:33
You hope they came to red square, make Maidan, burn Kremlin and overthrow Dictator Vlad and his KGB nukers?
Kulverstukas,

I get the impression that you feel that everyone non-Russian is "out to get" Russians, from the tone of your posts.

Sure, there are some in the media who make fun of Vladimir Putin, just as there are some who make fun of Barrack Obama, or Francois Hollande, or even Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Any President, of any country, has to expect a certain amount of critical comment, but that is not the issue here.

The issue is that the Russian Federation, as a state, was apparently sponsoring doping of its athletes on a scale significantly greater than any doping that athletes from other nations may have been engaging in.

It is not the fact that Russian athletes were caught doping; that could, and does, apply to athletes from other countries too. That doesn't make it right, cheating is cheating, whoever does it.

The key here is that Russia is the first state in recent history to have been caught out doping with the support of the state. That makes the whole issue a hell of a lot more serious.

I'm sure there are many clean and honourable Russian athletes and Paralympians, and I feel very sorry for the fact that they are being implicated by association with their cheating colleagues.

This has nothing whatever to do with politics, at the basic level, and everything to do with trust and cheating. It damages the reputation of Russian sport, just because of the scale of the abuse that was taking place. It does not mean that we all suddenly develop a hatred of Russia; I will still go drinking with my few Russian friends, as I've always done. I'm sure they are every bit as outraged at what some in power in their country have done as I am, but it won't change our friendship.

Kulverstukas
8th Aug 2016, 20:39
The key here is that Russia is the first state in recent history to have been caught out doping with the support of the state.

As I already said, in the whole WADA report there is no positive proof (based on anything but words of some guy with dubious background) on state involvement (not just some heads of sport or sport related installations and departments but definitely proof of involvement of FSB and proofed chain of command from President).

Simple question, if state (any state) will assign money to business on "proportion of green energy generation" and some CEO of power company will fake his reports to show more green than common generation, will it be "state sponsored corruption"? What if it's money which state assign on humanitarian aid to, say, Syria people and company which operates this supply chain will sell humanitarian aids in supermarkets? Is it "state steals from Syria people"?

Just take any reference which formulated "and definitely bad deeds of such level can't be done without knowledge and direct order from evil Putin" with a bit of salt.

PS: also I prefer to refer to head of any state as president (or prime minister etc.) instead of name. In case of Putin, with all my dislike for him, he is still not less legal head of state than said Obama (or Clinton as supposed next one) - he doesn't seized power but was elected.

Uncle Fred
9th Aug 2016, 03:18
Ah but was not that women's 100M Breast final brilliant? Hearkens back to the good old Cold War rivalries. Great pluck from the young American Ms. King in throwing down the gantlet. Good stuff there with the talking supported by the swimming.

747 jock
9th Aug 2016, 11:33
Kulverstukas
PS: also I prefer to refer to head of any state as president (or prime minister etc.) instead of name

Really?

SadPole, don't know about Obama (personally I think that he want to, but they just forbid him), but Putin not only flew Su-27, Tu-160 and Be-200, but also dropped a load on later.

Is this Obama or Kerry?

LOL! Putin again! Did Obama assign Craig Reedie then? Or "assign" Hillary to be his "ancestor"? Please drop this "Putin this, Putin that" stuff

LOL, Wolf! I know that Putin is a God of Ukrainians

Lol... I get up in the morning and read your quarrel. You both wrong. Read Ukrainian media. It was Putin beside the coup, and his intention was to draw worlds attention from his terror act in Nice.

Kulverstukas
9th Aug 2016, 18:33
747, tag [SARCASM] missed from your quotations ;)

oldchina
11th Aug 2016, 15:00
I wake up in the morning wishing that this gent had never been born ...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Pierre_de_Coubertin_Anefo2.jpg/220px-Pierre_de_Coubertin_Anefo2.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pierre_de_Coubertin_Anefo2.jpg)

... and we wouldn't have to suffer the bloody Olympic Games any more.

MrSnuggles
14th Aug 2016, 12:30
Kulverstukas

Hoping you will appreciate this: this is the common sentiment in Sweden.

Wennerholm: Jag mår illa | Mats Wennerholm | Krönikörer | Sportbladet | Aftonbladet (http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/kronikorer/wennerholm/article23336172.ab)

Here is my amateur translation of this article:

Det luktar mer politik än sportslig rättvisa när IAAF (http://www.aftonbladet.se/tagg/fe5afb386b44bbbe92159624963e4a58f337a7ee/) stoppar den enda ryska friidrottare som fått klartecken att starta i OS. [...] Hela den övriga truppen stoppades, inklusive stavstjärnan Jelena Isinbajeva (http://www.aftonbladet.se/tagg/962e66db220a2c7b3d88610eebc628b5461acb3c/).
It smells more of politics than sporting justice when IAAF recalls the only Russian T&F athlete who had green light to compete in the Olympics. [...] The entire Russian team was denied participation including the pole vault star Jelena Isinbajeva.

Jag hade gärna sett båda tävla här i Rio.
Hellre än amerikaner som Justin Gatlin (http://www.aftonbladet.se/tagg/1d195caadab8389027dbd911b4b934c9ba1c52de/) och Tyson Gay (http://www.aftonbladet.se/tagg/7aa3dfcc826777b9a2365739edc4a20404d83b15/), som båda är fällda fuskare av värsta sorten. Gatlin avstängd i fyra år för testosteron och Gay ett år, som egentligen borde varit två, för anabola steroider.
Jag skulle räkna upp tre, fyra friidrottare till som tävlar här i Rio med länga dopningavstängningar i ryggen.
Och jag tycker det är åt helvete.
I would have preferred seeing both compete in the Olympics.
Rather than americans like Justin Gatlin and Tyson Gay, both convicted cheats of the worst kind. Gatlin was banned for four year for testosterone and Gay one year, should have been two, for using anabolic steroids.
I would count another three or four T&F athletes who compete in Rio with long doping convictions in their history.
And I think this is bullshit.

Kulverstukas, this is the general consensus in Sweden. So please realise there are some who root for you and try to expose the corrupt system. I think Russia should make a very clear statement that the fight against doping is ongoing and especially name names! Expose those cheats you know are there. If the entire team calls out those cheaters, like Gatlin, you'd be sure SOMETHING would change for the better. Personally me too is a bit apprehensive of the presence of Gatlin. There was this US swimmer, Kate Ledecky, who openly suggested Gatlin should be staying at home.

Sallyann1234
15th Aug 2016, 10:26
If we really must have Olympic Games in future, let's emulate the originals as closely as possible.
1. Always held in Greece.
2. All participants on individual basis, no national teams.
3. Amateurs only, no commercial sponsors.

OK, I know it won't happen :ugh:

Hempy
15th Aug 2016, 13:26
+ 4. Participants will compete naked..

le Pingouin
15th Aug 2016, 16:11
+5. And well oiled...

ORAC
23rd Nov 2016, 13:35
Olympics History Rewritten: New Doping Tests Topple the Podium (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/sports/olympics/olympics-doping-medals-stripped.html?_r=0)

After disclosures of an extensive, state-run doping program in Russia, sports officials have been retesting urine samples from the 2008 and 2012 Summer Olympics, in Beijing and London. Their findings have resulted in a top-to-bottom rewriting of Olympics history.

More than 75 athletes from those two Olympics have been found, upon further scrutiny, to be guilty of doping violations. A majority are from Russia and other Eastern European countries. At least 40 of them won medals. Disciplinary proceedings are continuing against other athletes, and the numbers are expected to climb. Anyone looking at the record books for the Beijing and London Games might think them an illusion. Medals are being stripped from dozens of athletes and redistributed to those who were deprived a spot on the podium.

“The numbers are just impossible, incredible,” said Gian-Franco Kasper, an executive board member of the International Olympic Committee. “We lose credibility. Credibility is a major concern.”......

The Olympic committee announced penalties for 16 athletes last week and another 12 on Monday. Suddenly — and unceremoniously — some undecorated Olympians are inheriting medals for their performances eight years ago. Even some sixth-place finishers are discovering that they are bronze medalists.........

It is standard practice for Olympic officials to store urine samples for up to a decade so they may conduct additional tests if they obtain new information. While the first wave of retests began last year, the longtime director of Russia’s antidoping laboratory told The New York Times in May about a cocktail of banned substances that he used to improve the performance of scores of Russian athletes over the past several years.

Dr. Olivier Rabin of the World Anti-Doping Agency, who has been collaborating with the Olympic committee on the retests, confirmed that officials had been informed by disclosures regarding specific drugs Russian athletes used. “Clearly when you look at the findings, they correlate with the intelligence about Russia,” Dr. Rabin said.

Nearly all of the violations, across nationalities, were for the anabolic steroids Stanozolol or Turinabol, the very substances that notoriously fueled East Germany to global dominance in the 1970s and 80s...... “The good old-fashioned drugs work very well for strength,” Dr. Rabin said. “There’s a reason they’re still around.”

The drugs were not detected by the Olympic committee’s drug-testing lab years ago, during the Games, because the science at the time was not sensitive enough to detect such small residual concentrations, according to Dr. Richard Budgett, medical and scientific director of the I.O.C. New testing methods have increased the period of time during which long-familiar drugs can be detected in the body. “Science progresses every day,” Dr. Rabin said. “Just over the past probably five years, the sensitivity of the equipment progressed by a factor of about 100. You see what was impossible to see before."......

As the I.O.C.’s retests continue, the standings of the past Winter Games may be upended, too. Officials have focused on samples from past Summer Games this year, seeking to ensure they caught possible cheaters who were eligible to compete in Rio de Janeiro in August. Ahead of the 2018 Winter Games in Pyeongchang, South Korea, the I.O.C. is expected to turn its attention to samples from the 2010 Games in Vancouver. Officials have already scrutinized some 500 samples from the 2006 Winter Games in Turin, but the I.O.C. has not provided details on how many violations were discovered.

“The I.O.C. cannot and will not issue further comments with regard to this process, nor will it answer questions, at this point in time,” a spokeswoman wrote by email on Monday regarding the tests from the Turin Games.........

meadowrun
23rd Nov 2016, 13:55
the longtime director of Russia’s antidoping laboratory told The New York Times in May about a cocktail of banned substances that he used to improve the performance of scores of Russian athletes


That would be the "Russian Doping Laboratory" then.

core_dump
23rd Nov 2016, 15:09
I would not want to be the lab technician that has to sit there and open decade-old vials of urine.

fitliker
23rd Nov 2016, 16:17
The Russians never got the memo that allows athletes to use any drugs , so long as their team Doctor issues a therapeutic use chit to give all those asthma athletes a chance to get through the day without collapsing from the stress of carrying all their gold medals :)