AME Apprenticeships in WA

[PropBlades]

Hi i'm a 2015 graduate looking into becoming a LAME.

I've asked around at Polytechnic West (a TAFE institution) about how to best go about becoming a LAME.

They said that I have one of two options:
1) Complete a 12 week pre-apprenticeship course and get a Cert II in Aeroskills and go 'apprenticeship-hunting' after that in order to gain my Cert IV in Aeroskills.

or

2) go look for an apprenticeship straight away.

I think that doing the Pre-apprenticeship would be beneficial, but does anybody know if this is the case or are companies willing to take on school-leavers with pretty-much no knowledge in this field and train them up?

I've read that the CASA regulations have also changed in recent years and that you no longer only need a Cert IV in Aeroskills, have the minimum SoE (Schedule of Experience) hours and also complete all of the CASA exams in oder to get your licence, but now ALSO need to have a Diploma in Aeroskills. No companies in WA offer this Diploma, so I was wondering if anyone knows the best way for me to get this?

I've also been looking for job-postings for AMEs and LAMEs, but cant seem to find any in WA - they all seem to be in the eastern states. Does anybody know of any WA companies looking for apprentices and LAMEs?

If anyone has any experience with becoming a LAME in WA or even in the rest of Australia, I'd really appreciate any insight, tips and knowledge.

Hope to hear from you soon

-CJ

[Band a Lot]

Young chappy many moons ago I did a Pre Appy at Midland TAFE. It was a very good course and I did well enough to land a good Appyship before it ended but did finish said course.

I have travels this country zig zagged all over got licence and did the same again but a few other countries too. I was lucky and got into senior positions young, I made for the industry pretty bloody good $'s and much more when O/S.

But times they change, I can not recommend to you to follow the path I took. Things are going to be a bit tough for a good while as what I see. I'm shutting my doors next week after 10 years starting and running my maintenance company. Don't think I have any regrets on what I did, I would do it all over again but I must change like the industry is.

Best of luck CJ.

[PropBlades]

Thanks Band a Lot for your reply.

i was just wondering what has changed recently? What has forced you to close your company? Is there an excess of AMEs and LAMEs or is there just not enough work?

I've always been interested in aviation, so are there any other careers that you recommend I should pursue instead?

Many Thanks

-CJ :)

[Aviater]

G'day PropBlades.

There are apprenticeships offered from time to time but most require the pre apprenticeship course to be already completed.

No new information to be found here, it all comes down to what you want to achieve and how much you want it.

As time marches on, the gap in the industry will widen and there will be a need for experienced AME's and LAME's down the track. For the moment however, the industry is in a transition period and has slowed for engineers in general.

Cheers.

[PropBlades]

Thats interesting - I've heard a few people mention that there will be a need for LAMEs and AMEs in the future. Is that because the current work force is nearing retirement? Or is it because the Australian aviation industry is expected to grow?

Would you advise me to pursue the Cert II and Cert IV for now, or rather first go to uni before doing so? I dont think that its a bad idea to have a Uni degree as a back-up incase the LAME path I want to take doesnt work out.

I've been in contact with Aviation Australia and have been speaking to the about their Diploma in Aeroskills. I was just wondering if anyone has been there or heard of them and what the Diploma course is like?


Thanks a lot :)

-CJ

[Band a Lot]

Due to a few reasons.

The economy is a bit slow, not much money around. Each time that happens aircraft fly less both for work and more so for play aircraft.


The transition in regs is also playing a big part.


The quality of appy's has been declining (odd good one around) but wages in new award increased a lot, an extra 2 weeks of TAFE added. Don't quote me but from memory it was around $700 a week for a 1st year. They will always break or do something that costs lots (connect battery wrong as both lugs are red crimps $6k plus 9 years ago). You can claim that but pay out your premium and brace for the next years insurance bill. There are 4 weeks leave, 12+ melb cup and other local events days in public holidays, 10 sick days and 9 weeks TAFE. This all works out to about 1/3 of a year not working but paid while knowing nothing and requiring supervision. A appy normally becomes useful in the 4th year and normal move on after that. So we stopped taking on appy's a few years back.

When the AUD (Ozzie $) was strong + $1 to USD (USD was actually weak too) the States increased their prices in things inc Aircraft parts, now prices that exchange rates have normalized some what - we are paying about 40% more than we did when exchange rate was before about 73 cent to the $1. That is far greater than CPI over those years and putting pressure on our industry both AOC's and COA's.

Then things like SID's and Live export bans have effects, I have log books of aircraft I have not seen for 5 years but I am sure the windmills have seen them.


Mining also plays a big part in aviation from FIFO to many hours of survey. I have done many 100 hly on survey both here in Oz and in Africa, normally every 2 weeks you see that aircraft both singles and twins. No need to tell you how the mining industry currently is.

And after 35 years in the game I am just getting old and need a change.

[Fred Gassit]

Business is jumping around our part of the airport, haven't seen an apprentice in years and at least half our workforce are from overseas.

[Band a Lot]

Flight school Fred?

[Hasherucf]

Heard a rumour that TAFE Polytechnic in Jandakot only had 4 appys last year. I don't think they are 147 approved. Maybe they can hold 147 exams but it's not part of the course. I know one company up north that is sending their apprentice to Parafield

[Band a Lot]

All companies I know have to send to Parafield, maybe not EI&R. But it is not an option and government pay allowance that cover airfares (booked in advance) and accom + a bit. but we still pay wages.

[Hasherucf]

Well I don't think WA , NT and Victoria have Part 147 approved training organisations. I always have a good laugh when people say Aviation Australia is 'too big to fail'. Engineer training is a real mess in Australia. PropBlades one suggestion is to move to QLD and do the state supported course over 9 months. It does make you more attractive to employers in a sense as you don't need to be travelling to trade school every other week.

[chute packer]

BAE Systems at Pearce take on the occasional apprentice, might be your best shot at staying in WA.

[Aviater]

If you want to be part of the industry then I'd recommend you do your Pre-Apprenticeship course and go hunting for an apprenticeship. That doesn't mean just looking at seek.com every week, that means going door knocking too. Whatever it takes to get on the path to your Cert IV. Once your an AME it's very easy to move around. Once your a LAME, not so much without starting again.

If at all possible, I'd avoid Aviation Australia. No doubt they can get you qualified, but they can and do charge whatever they like for the service. There are other organisations that can do the same, they're just not as 'mainstream media' as AA.

They recently quoted a friend $2000.00 to look at an overseas qualification. no outcome with that, just $2K to have a look.

Another firm in another state offered advice on the same quals for free. Took 20 minutes.

[RooDog]

My advice to anyone who is looking for an apprenticeship is to get on the phone and call around. Or even better visit all the shops at Jandakot in person. In my experience most jobs are found by word of mouth.
If the maintenance shop hasn't got anything on offer, ask if they know of anyone who is looking. Broome, and Kununurra are a busy places at this time of year, try all the companies up there. Be prepared to work as a TA for a few months at least. Most companies will offer you an apprenticeship once they think you have what it takes.
A pre-apprenticeship is a waste of time in my opinion. The real questions are can you turn a spanner and do you have a good work ethic? How you go on the job is what an employee is most interested in.

[Hasherucf]

They recently quoted a friend $2000.00 to look at an overseas qualification. no outcome with that, just $2K to have a look.

I think you would find that that assessment covers the cost of the diploma. They were doing so many assessments that they changed the way they charged..

If you are an apprentice make sure the school is part 147 approved . Don't believe them if they say it is coming. So many friends have been caught by this trap . They need to resit all their exams at an approved 147 training organisation.

[Aviater]

A pre-apprenticeship is a waste of time

You won't get an apprenticeship at VA or Qantas without one for the moment. So without it, your limiting your options. Plus I guarantee your MORE likely to get offered an apprenticeship from a GA business if you don't need to leave every 2 weeks for block release training at the company's expense.

Believe it or not, the cert II will give you an entry level knowledge base and some basic hand skills you can put to use on the first day starting a new job. How is that not a benefit to someone starting out?

[PropBlades]

If you havent seen an apprentice in years, is that because companies are less willing to take them on, or because there simply arent enough people like me looking for an apprenticeship?

Why do companies have to send to Parafield? What's over there that isnt anywhere else?

I see that the CASA website has a link to a list of Part 147 approved training facilities, but the link doesnt seem to work for me :? does anyone know where I can find this list?

Yes doing all of the Cert 4 theory in one 7-11 month block makes a lot of sense to me. has anyone done it this way before and did it work out well?

If I decide not to go to Aviation Australia, does anyone have any experience with another organisation? And how was the Diploma course?

Thanks a lot! :)

-CJ

[Hasherucf]

If you havent seen an apprentice in years, is that because companies are less willing to take them on, or because there simply arent enough people like me looking for an apprenticeship?

The mining boom is over and there is less certainty about licencing outcomes from training organisations. We aren't like plumbers or electricians. We don't graduate fully licenced .

Why do companies have to send to Parafield? What's over there that isnt anywhere else?

They are the closet Part 147 approved training organisation om WA. If your Diploma isn't from a 147 organistaion it's worth jack **** . TAFE Perth doesn't have approval so you CAN NOT get a licencing outcome from their CERT IV. Don't waste time on a cert IV or Diploma that cant be used for licencing. ATAE promised 147 , QIAE promised 147 . They both went broke and left students with nothing.

I see that the CASA website has a link to a list of Part 147 approved training facilities, but the link doesnt seem to work for me :? does anyone know where I can find this list?

https://www.casa.gov.au/files/147c02pdf There will be an error but you can still download the file on the page.

[Progressive]

Hi PropBlades,
Be careful of some of the advice you are receiving here, although well meant some of it will not work in WA due to differences in how states run things.

For example: If you do the one year certificate at AA they will give you a certificate that says you are "eligible for assessment" against the units you need. This certificate is not worth the paper it is written on in other states as it does not meet nationally recognized certificate requirements (under which you must have already been assessed "competent" or not, there is no "eligible"). You would have completed your CASA 66 exams but would get no credit towards a WA apprenticeship.

Similarly Parafield is not an option if you are WA based as they do not do Cert IV apprenticeships and WA only fund to Cert IV level.

The reality is that your TAFE will be chosen by your employer when you get the apprenticeship. A pre-apprenticeship done anywhere is just a way to get in the door, however the Polytechnic pre-app will at least give you credit towards an appy in WA.

My advice,
Go looking for an apprenticeship (door knock) AND sign up for the pre-app, if you get the appy first you can always withdraw from the pre-app before you start it.

[Hasherucf]

Just for some history I was an apprentice through Polytechnic west !


Similarly Parafield is not an option if you are WA based as they do not do Cert IV apprenticeships and WA only fund to Cert IV level.

Untrue . Several places in Kununurra are sending students to Parafield as WA doesn't have Part 147 training.

[Progressive]

"Untrue . Several places in Kununurra are sending students to Parafield as WA doesn't have Part 147 training."

Apprentices who withdrew from Polywest to go to Parafield now returned to Poly west.
Apprentice was enrolled to do Diploma there but WA Gov't refused to fund it as their apprenticeship was Cert IV. Employer was offered the option of full fees but balked at the cost. All up this fiasco cost the apprentice 6th months of effort for no gain, and nearly required a restart to the apprenticeship due to withdrawal form the WA one. I was directly involved with this case.

If any other WA apprentices Currently enrolled with Parafield I would love to know how they are funding it. (PM would be fine)

[Hasherucf]

So Progressive you would be happy to send an apprentice to Poly West even with no chance of a licencing outcome ?

[Progressive]

If they had no chance...then no.
BUT they can and do continue to get licenses through PWA and AA in combination.........3 in the last 6 months I can think of.

I understand you are a former PWA student and obviously don't like the place, but that is no reason to poison others. The reality is that no-one other than PWA can do a WA AME apprentice.

Propbits.....please dont worry about all the naysayers on here.....find an apprenticeship (with or without pre-app). Go where your employer sends you (TAFE wise), do what they ask and be proactive in achieving your goals...you will do fine.

[Hasherucf]

I understand you are a former PWA student and obviously don't like the place, but that is no reason to poison others. . I don't dislike PWA I just know that a cert IV without Part 147 is plain crazy, sure a cert IV is good for a trade certificate but not licencing. Have seen friends burnt repeatably by this situation.

No one asks to see my cert IV when applying for a job. Just my licence and more recently my currency.

So Propbits be very careful about what you are signing at the start of an apprenticeship. I agree a Cert II may help you get that apprenticeship and would never deter anyone from training.

[PropBlades]

Thanks for all of the replies and comments!

I was wondering if anyone here has gone through and become a LAME? Could you maybe give me an outline of where you were sent for training, how long it took, and anything else you noticed while going through training (i.e. were companies scouting for more mechanical and structural AMEs and LAMEs compared to Avionics, or vice versa?)?

If there's anything else you feel is important for me to consider or know before I get into this industry, I'd love to know about it.

Many Thanks,

-CJ :)

[Engineer_aus]

If there's anything else you feel is important for me to consider or know before I get into this industry, I'd love to know about it

Don't get into the industry in the first place!

[PropBlades]

I'm thinking of doing my Cert 4 in Aeroskills via distance-study from here in Perth (that way I dont have to move around too much). After I've completed that, im looking at gettin gan apprenticeship at a company to complete my practical side of the Cert.

Has anyone done this before? Does it sound like a good idea? Any other ways that I could get my Cert 4?

Thanks a lot!

-CJ

[Progressive]

Be carefull doing this, at least one well known provider will issue you with a final statement saying you are "eligable for assessment" in the cert iv. This certificate is not worth the paper it is written on as it does not meet national competency based training requirements and therefore cannot be used for credir by another rto. There is no such thing as getting a cert iv and then doing the apprenticeship, the cert iv requires both practical and theory.

Please take my advice: if you want to enter this industry find an employer willing to take you on as an apprentice and then go where they send you. The choice of training pathway is decided by the employer not the apprentice. If you want advice on finding an employer pm me.