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NutLoose
16th Jun 2016, 14:04
MP Jo Cox has been shot and stabbed

https://www.rt.com/uk/346955-shooting-incident-police-birstall/


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/birstall-shooting-mp-jo-cox-8207285

MP injured after 'shooting' reports - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36550304)

UniFoxOs
16th Jun 2016, 15:17
Various eyewitness accounts suggest the MP was shot during a row with a man with a gun.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't thjink it particularly wise to get involved in a row with a man with a gun.

sitigeltfel
16th Jun 2016, 15:44
I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't thjink it particularly wise to get involved in a row with a man with a gun.

A particularly crass statement considering the victim is lying critical ill in hospital and the circumstances are at best confused.

Loose rivets
16th Jun 2016, 15:45
what is happening to our country? This beautiful woman was not just a high achiever, but devoted to some very worthy causes.

I seldom find myself baying for blood, but in this case I'd like to see . . .

Better I leave it there.



married with two children.

She has been head of policy for Oxfam, national chair of the Labour Women's Network, a senior advisor to the Freedom Fund, an anti-slavery charity, and is currently Chair of the Friends of Syria All-Party Parliamentary Group.

Tankertrashnav
16th Jun 2016, 16:19
Only last week

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe said anyone who witnesses an assault or crime should “never turn their back” and “give it their best shot” to help the victim.

It's a tricky one. I admire this lady for "having a go" but the way it has turned out here is tragic. I don't for one minute blame the victim, in this or any other case. All the blame must go on the thug who pulled the trigger.

sitigeltfel
16th Jun 2016, 17:17
Police have just announced that she has died from her injuries.

:(

strake
16th Jun 2016, 17:18
Whatever your political view, what the hell is happening to our country and the world?

Cyber Bob
16th Jun 2016, 17:25
It might not be politically motivated. Nonetheless its' an awful, absolutely awful thing to happen.

NutLoose
16th Jun 2016, 17:36
First off I would like to thank the moderator whoever it was that amended the thread title, I had just logged on to do the same thing after hearing this tragic news, No one deserves to die like that, especially a mother working tirelessly for her community.

My sincere condolences to her family and friends and my heart goes out to the two children who's mummy will not be returning home this evening, how their father explains this sad and tragic event to them is beyond me. Such a waste and a loss :(

G-CPTN
16th Jun 2016, 17:40
Two children - who were aged 3 and 5 at the time of her death.

Andy_S
16th Jun 2016, 17:44
What a dreadful incident. This was a lady simply doing her job. Political allegiance is irrelevant at a time like this.

PDR1
16th Jun 2016, 17:46
Both sides of the EU Referendum campaign have announced they will cease all campaigning until Monday as a token of respect.

PDR

Danny42C
16th Jun 2016, 17:48
It's out of favour and completely un-PC, but "bring back the rope", say I. I hope that whenever the House of Commons has its next free vote on this matter, they will remember this day - for it has come home to them.

mickjoebill
16th Jun 2016, 17:54
The man arrested was quoted in 2010 whilst engaging in work in a park.
Tommy Mair: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com (http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/tommy-mair-jo-cox-shooting-suspect-name-britain-first-brexit-eu-jeremy-corbyn-husband-brendan/)
He said "I can honestly say it has done me more good than all the psychotherapy and medication in the world. Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society, feelings of worthlessness are also common mainly caused by long-term unemployment."

(Speculation) Reports that the gun was home made may allude to it being a sawn off shot gun.


Mickjoebill

Rwy in Sight
16th Jun 2016, 18:00
It goes beyond tragic - not for her kids (who are so heart) but for the democracy. The UK being the second oldest democracy in Europe and I can't believe (if there are real political motivations behind the assassination) that a European country can't hold a referendum without major issues - not associated with a Western democracy.

PDR1
16th Jun 2016, 18:06
It sounds more like a consequence of mental illness, which almost certainly means that there was no one to blame as such. It's just senseless and very, very sad.

How the hell do you go to two preschool-age kids who this morning had a mum, and tell them that now they don't?

PDR

bcgallacher
16th Jun 2016, 18:14
I think we find this all the more horrific as such events are rare in our society.
It seems from all reports that we have lost an exceptionally well regarded MP - there are far too few these days. We as individuals can do little but mourn with her family.

dsc810
16th Jun 2016, 19:11
@rwy in Sight.

Democracy - in the UK - are you having a larf?
The UK electoral system is more bent than the average coat hanger.
I live in a "safe seat" ie a parliamentary constituency with a huge majority so the same party gets returned in this seat every time under our first past the post system.
So it is pointless me voting - my vote does not count in any way whatsoever.
I have never voted and until the electoral system changes to a proper PR one where the makeup of parliament reflects the voting preferences of the UK population I ain't going to bother.
I did vote 'for' in the AV referendum a while back: not an ideal system I agree but it was not the current system.

Have I ever conversed with my MP - yes I have - I reckon I'd have a more constructive conversation if I'd talked to my cat.

I detest the whole bleeding lot.
I notice that the current unfortunate victim was strongly in favour of immigration which apparently enriched the local culture - yeah right: more likely because they'd vote for her.

bcgallacher
16th Jun 2016, 19:22
Dsc810 - every now and then a post falls into the category of absolute inanity - congratulations.

alwayzinit
16th Jun 2016, 19:37
The CONLIBLAB theory that the mentally ill can be treated out in the community rather than in a more specialized environment does, imho, nobody any favours, especially those with physiological issues.

(As an aside fatalities on US roads run at 90 a day ...........................)

Cyber Bob
16th Jun 2016, 19:51
Dsc810, you raise a valid point and I too live in a catchment whereby 'Bagpuss' would get elected should the 'Grandson' keel over. However that's a different discussion for another day. Today's event is.... well words hardly describe it but it's not about politics, it's about a young mother needlessly losing her life. Feel for all the family

rigpiggy
16th Jun 2016, 20:12
Condolences to the family, I feel for the Husband who now must raise 2 children after this criminal act. My heart goes out to the children.

But, aren't handguns illegal in Britain? How could this happen? Don't Criminals follow the Law?

sitigeltfel
16th Jun 2016, 20:30
But, aren't handguns illegal in Britain? How could this happen? Don't Criminals follow the Law?

Eye witnesses have said it was an improvised or sawn-off shotgun. Is this going to degenerate into another gun control thread?

Rwy in Sight
16th Jun 2016, 20:40
Dsc810,

Two words, one year Magna Carta, 1215. You have a head of state who respects the right of people stay out of the way the elected government runs the country and all those we still take for granted (people don't disappearing off the street, freedom of the press etc..).

In the memory of the killed MP, I am not going to make a lengthy post but I have two final comments. Seats are safe as long the conditions allow - I was in the U.K. in the 1997 elections and I do remember the Labor MP winning what was the late Thatcher's seat and if we count we can get a lot of examples.

Second don't carry your "I don't vote" up your sleeve proudly. You are a part of the problem doing so.

Dont Hang Up
16th Jun 2016, 21:28
Dsc810. Wrong thread. Wrong moment. Go do your political point scoring somewhere else.

Cazalet33
16th Jun 2016, 22:25
It's utterly appalling that this has happened. Regardless of political affiliations, it is clear that Jo Cox was a thoroughly good person.

One expects this sort of event to occur in somewhere like Nigeria or the US or Colombia, but in a civilised and decent country this sort of thing just doesn't happen.

Simplythebeast
16th Jun 2016, 22:29
The US isnt a civilised or decent Country then Cazalet33?

Pappa Smurf
17th Jun 2016, 00:33
One has to be unstable to carry out events like this,and his trigger was immigration.
I think most of the people voting "out" in the Brexit are doing so solely over immigration issues.

TWT
17th Jun 2016, 01:50
There's nutjobs in every country on Earth.We can't change that.We can't stop bad things happening,no matter what we do.Make one method more difficult,they'll find another.

mickjoebill
17th Jun 2016, 03:45
This is being described as a "hate crime."
How can we define what a nutter does in such terms?

Such classification does nothing to address the real issue of care and monitoring of the mentally ill.

The stock market now consider there is an 8% more chance of Britain staying in Europe, the opposite effect to what the killer wanted.

Mickjoebill

FLEXJET
17th Jun 2016, 05:21
-Madrid bombings occurred 3 days before elections in 2004 (Aznar was defeated).
-Pro Euro Anna Lindh was killed 4 days before the Swedish Euro referendum in September 2003.
-Fugitive nationalist Yvan Colonna was arrested 2 days before the Corsica referendum in July 2003.

And the list goes on.

Pace
17th Jun 2016, 08:10
MP's alleged killer was a loner who subscribed to far-Right magazine, had long term mental illness and cleaned himself with BRILLO pads because he was 'obsessed with his personal hygiene'

I think it is very badly thought out by Pprune to lock the EU thread on a time when a vitally important decision has to be made by the citizens of the U.K. Over a tragic death caused by a headcase which has nothing to do with the referendum by banning campaigning from the government or here it indicates a connection of an awful deed carried out by a mentally disturbed individual

Heliport
17th Jun 2016, 08:42
ExXBthat thread is not locked by the Mods
That is not true.
The thread has been locked by PPRuNe Admin.
In any case that thread is useless in affecting people's opinions.
I agree.


(Edit)
You've edited your post since I posted.

Pace
17th Jun 2016, 10:38
Pace, that thread was locked out of decency.


But that is the point ! There are madmen everywhere! To lock threads in decency indicates that this was somehow to do with the referendum ?
It had nothing to do with the referendum but all to do with a mentally deranged individual the type who shoots up school yards
Again the moves by both sides to do this in decency Is more to do with making capital out of a very tragic event carried out by a madman and not in decency
If in decency explain how ?

Sallyann1234
17th Jun 2016, 10:56
An MP has been murdered while carrying out her constituency duties.

Out of respect for her, other MPs have paused their political activities. That seems an honourable thing, to me.

If anyone wants to make political capital out of this tragedy, more shame on them.

sitigeltfel
17th Jun 2016, 11:17
If anyone wants to make political capital out of this tragedy, more shame on them.

It didn't take them long...

Labour MP criticised for politicising the shocking murder of Jo Cox (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/labour-mp-criticised-for-politicising-the-murder-of-jo-cox/)


http://twitter.com/XxPLWxX/status/743573606190428160/photo/1

VP959
17th Jun 2016, 11:55
As others have said here and in the media, this tragedy is a risk all MPs take, but not one they should have to accept. Sadly, no one can account for lone nutters (and it seems that this is what this murderer was). There's no sensible political issue here, just a good MP murdered because one constituent was sufficiently deranged to think that killing her, leaving her kids without a mother, would somehow make the world align with his warped view.

What the murder of Jo Cox has highlighted in the media is something that has been reported in recent months but which it seems no one is prepared to take action over. MPs, or anyone with a public profile, seem to be routinely subjected to threats and hate "mail" via social media. It seems to be accepted behaviour to post vile and hateful comments on various social media sites, and the only response I've heard in the media is from those affected saying that they just stop looking at them.

What's the betting that this freedom to bully and harass plays a part in motivating people to take physical action?

I'm not saying this was the case here, simple because I have no idea if the murderer had any access to social media, but it does seem to me that the normal rules of behaviour that we use when speaking to people face to face get chucked out of the window when a "conversation" is via social media.

vulcanised
17th Jun 2016, 12:29
I can think of several MPs and former MPs who are far more deserving of that treatment.
.
.

PDR1
17th Jun 2016, 12:52
I can think of several MPs and former MPs who are far more deserving of that treatment.


I appreciate the temptation, but can we please not do this?

It's remarks like that which, although not seriously intended, can make the mentally-less-effective feel that it is acceptable to commit murders.

PDR

ExXB
17th Jun 2016, 13:10
The US isnt a civilised or decent Country then Cazalet33?

Sounds about right.

BIRSTALL, England — The suspect in the killing of a member of Parliament on a street in northern England on Thursday has a history of ties with a neo-Nazi organization in the United States, and in 1999, he purchased books from the group on how to make a gun and improvised explosives, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

The law center, which is based in Alabama and tracks extremist groups, released receipts Thursday night showing that the suspect, Thomas Mair, 52, had paid $620 for materials from National Vanguard Books, the publishing imprint of the neo-Nazi organization, called the National Alliance. The materials included a set of publications — including “Chemistry of Powder and Explosives” and “Improvised Munitions Handbook” — purchased in 1999.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/18/world/europe/jo-cox-attack.html

Freedom of speech fails yet again.

SASless
17th Jun 2016, 13:42
PDR....how many such people attend pprune Jet Blast?

VP959
17th Jun 2016, 13:46
I appreciate the temptation, but can we please not do this?

It's remarks like that which, although not seriously intended, can make the mentally-less-effective feel that it is acceptable to commit murders.

PDR
Well said.

Who knows what might trigger the "mentally-less-effective" into taking physical action?

I somehow doubt that this lone nutter was uninfluenced by others, we're seeing this time and time again with seemingly normal people, reading hateful stuff and coming to believe themselves that it's within the bounds of normal behaviour.

Even my doctor's waiting room now has a prominent sign warning that abusive behaviour will not be tolerated. I can remember a time, not long ago, when such a sign would not have been needed at all.

Society is changing, and some of those changes are damaging, particularly so in this case, where a person who seems to have spent her life helping others is murdered just on an impulse from someone who, it seems, didn't agree with one, relatively small, issue (small in that the EU debate is trivial when compared to murdering someone).

Random SLF
17th Jun 2016, 14:59
I personally doubt that the motive was the EU debate, since the evidence for it is merely hearsay until confirmed by the Police. Given the man's apparent history of involvement in rehabilitation projects, he was more likely to have a grievance against cuts to those projects and (his perceived) lack of effective opposition to those cuts by his local MP.

TURIN
17th Jun 2016, 15:46
DSC810

Congratulations you are in the honourable position of reaching my ignore list.

What a contemptible thing to say when a young mother of two is killed in a senseless act.

You must be so proud.

West Coast
17th Jun 2016, 16:52
I dunno if the post has been amended from the original content or another post removed, but if y'awl are that offended by DSC810 in post 18, then you're too thin skinned to be on JB.

Flying Lawyer
17th Jun 2016, 17:53
Random SLFI personally doubt that the motive was the EU debate

So do I.

Unfortunately, it won't stop the disreputable elements of the Remain campaign trying to capitalise on the tragedy.

PAXfips
17th Jun 2016, 17:59
As per wikileaks the witness hearing the alleged "britain first" is member of the BNP.

vulcanised
17th Jun 2016, 18:02
Meanwhile, the BBC are pushing the Right Wing Influence theory for all it's worth.

unclenelli
17th Jun 2016, 18:14
I'm with UFO.
Nutter/alleged murderer was hellbent on killing someone on that day. It's unfortunate that an MP stepped in to attemp to calm the situation.

Unfortunately, the press have decided that this was a targeted attack against an MP. It clearly wasn't. House of Commons have succumbed to the press in order to appease the general (mis-informed) public.

G-AWZK
17th Jun 2016, 18:51
Yesterday a smart, strong and principled woman was assassinated because of the work she did and the stances she took. Her murderer is already being dismissed in the usual fashion, by those that regard Farage as poster boy, as a 'crazed lone gunman'.

This is depriving Jo Cox of the context of her life and the reasons for her death.

To believe that this act of terrorism is not connected to the EU referendum is blind naïvety.

The EU Referendum was not about immigrants, of which my wife and children are, but it has been hijacked by UKIP who receive far too much publicity and are drifting closer and closer to overt racism.

The terrorist who is responsible for this wicked act of depriving two children of their mother is a nazi sympathiser. I am sure there will be many righty haties on here who will do all they can to push the mental illness issue, but the reality is going to come out. He may have been suffering from mental health issues but his long standing links to right wing organisations cannot be denied.

When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say "Mate, you weren't supposed to take it so seriously. Its just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes"

When you scream BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don't have the right to be surprised when someone breaks. When you present politics as a matter of life and death, as a question of national survival, don't be surprised if someone takes you at your word. You may not have made them do it, no, but you didn't do much to stop it either.

I notice that the current unfortunate victim was strongly in favour of immigration which apparently enriched the local culture - yeah right: more likely because they'd vote for her.DSC810, that comment is utterly despicable.

RedhillPhil
17th Jun 2016, 19:38
I've just listened - in some amazement - to the newscaster on the B.B.C. tellybox news say that the C.P.S. have considered that they have enough evidence to prosecute the attacker.
"Considered"? How much evidence to these chimps need?

VP959
17th Jun 2016, 20:12
I've just listened - in some amazement - to the newscaster on the B.B.C. tellybox news say that the C.P.S. have considered that they have enough evidence to prosecute the attacker.
"Considered"? How much evidence to these chimps need?
We still have due process, and this was just reporting that process.

Thankfully we don't resort to convicting or lynching someone, when guilt seems clear from media reports (and we all know how reliable they can be).

I, for one, am glad that we do follow the full process of collecting evidence, examining it and then making a decision as to whether or not to charge an individual, and don't just rush to charge on the basis of what has been reported by the media.

Granite City Express
17th Jun 2016, 22:08
Meanwhile, the BBC are pushing the Right Wing Influence theory for all it's worth.Here is a thought, there might be a good reason for that. Thomas Mair is in the blue cap
http://www.fototime.com/1862CBAEA006C4B/standard.jpg

Unfortunately, the press have decided that this was a targeted attack against an MP. It clearly wasn't.Please do tell us how you figure that out.


I personally doubt that the motive was the EU debateI personally think that is a deeply naive point of view.
Farage predicts violence on the streets (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-predicts-violence-the-next-step-if-immigration-is-not-controlled_uk_573b8f77e4b0328a838b8c9c?utm_hp_ref=uk)

Sallyann1234
17th Jun 2016, 22:54
I, for one, am glad that we do follow the full process of collecting evidence, examining it and then making a decision as to whether or not to charge an individual, and don't just rush to charge on the basis of what has been reported by the media. Perhaps a more significant point is how the murderer can be brought to trial?
He has been shown being arrested, he's been named and shown on all the media.
How can a jury be found of eleven people who have not seen all of this and already judged him guilty?

bosnich71
17th Jun 2016, 23:36
GCE ....however the blokes at the back are just a bunch of peace loving people who deplore violence of any sort ?

Granite City Express
17th Jun 2016, 23:38
Ah well, looks like Jo Cox did die in vain.

You guys make me weep.

Since a moderator removed one of my previous posts, Flying Lawyer,
Unfortunately, it won't stop the disreputable elements of the Remain campaign trying to capitalise on the tragedy.you will be pleased to know you share the same opinion as Nick Griffin, one time BNP Leader. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jo-cox-death-nick-griffin-remain-campaign-response-bnp-a7087001.html)

Flying Binghi
18th Jun 2016, 01:29
Granite City Express, I've been having a close look-see at the photo you posted in #54. Some observations:

- The blue cap chap is dressed differently to the other four. He is wearing what apears to be a half pink t-shirt. Not all that 'militaristic' I'da thought.

- Blue caps hand is up to hold the placard and yet while the other four show definite hand hold fold marks in the placard, blue cap is not making an impression.

- The four darkly dressed placard holders are very intent on the camera man and putting on a show for him. Blue cap on the other hand seems not to be of that group.

- From the camera mans perspective, to the above left of the right hand crown on the placard there appears to be a thumb impression from the back side of the placard though no veiw of a hand. There is what appears to be a grey smudge on the arm of the chap second from Churchill end of placard. About where an arm would go to make the placard impression.

I suggest some kids done a good photoshop job.





.

SASless
18th Jun 2016, 02:40
Sallyann....how does showing an arrest bias a Jury?

I would assume Jury Members are "Charged" by the Judge and instructed on how to weigh evidence and testimony given in Court during the prosecution of a Defendant.

Perhaps Flying Lawyer might explain how all this works for those who only have a marginal understanding of the Legal Process for Criminal Matters.

Flying Lawyer
18th Jun 2016, 03:03
Granite City Express you will be pleased to know you share the same opinion as Nick Griffin, one time BNP Leader.

No. It is a matter of indifference to me whether, on this specific topic, Griffin takes a similar view.
Adopting your term, I am "pleased" that other people, people for whom I have respect, share my opinion. Others, whom I also respect, don't.

I remain of the view that using using this tragic death to try to score any political points is disgraceful.
I have no doubt that the decent people on both sides of the Remain/Leave divide would not do so.
You are, of course, free to disagree.


SASless

I'm happy to do so, but not now. I'm off to bed.

(Showing the arrest doesn't trouble me. Some of the things that have been written about the man since his arrest do.)

Flying Binghi
18th Jun 2016, 04:34
Granite City Express, one other thing I noticed about the image in post #54. The four darkly dressed banner holders have a badge of some sort on their top left chest area. Something you'd expect of members of the "Northern Brigade".
Blue cap dont have a badge ?

Doing a bit of research on Britain First and I find this:

"...Britain First is not against individual Muslims, but specifically against the doctrine and religion of Islam itself as an ideology. The Koran and Islamic doctrine promotes hatred, violence and intolerance against non-Muslims. "Jihad" is the most talked about issue in the Koran. Women are oppressed in Islam. The death penalty applies to homosexuals. Marriage to children is allowed..."


Hmmm... a group that seeks female and gay equality and is against violence is tied to a nutter by the un-elected Eurocrat supporters. Something stinks...:hmm:





.

mickjoebill
18th Jun 2016, 05:18
"Considered"? How much evidence to these chimps need?
He could say he found a bag in the road and when he showed a passerby the contents there was panic a struggle and the gun went off ect ect.

Video of his arrest and arrival of backup.
Looks like he fell over and hit his head.
Thomas Mair charged with Labour MP Jo Cox's murder | Daily Mail Online (http://dailym.ai/1Pz2oFm)

He taught English language to immigrants and was an avid gardener. He had manuals on bomb making and DIY handgun, but these were not recent.
Neighbour who was a nurse for 40 years says she didn't notice any signs of depression or severe mental illness.

Motivation may have been a combination of a political view triggered by a mental illness.

She was a jewel in the crown.

Mickjoebill

Krystal n chips
18th Jun 2016, 06:03
FB....

Leaving aside the tragedy of this murder, and there's been enough unbiased commentary as to the personal and professional qualities of Jo Cox which has been unequivocal in this respect, allied to which there is really nothing to add that hasn't already been said and doubtless will be again at her funeral, there's the matter of the alleged murderer to consider as well.

sitigeltfel
18th Jun 2016, 07:29
Journalist: "What do you think lies behind the murder of Jo Cox?"

Usual suspect: "It is obviously the work of Fascist right wing groups linked to Brexit".

Journalist: "And the Orlando nightclub massacre?"

Usual suspect: "Well, one thing we can say with absolute certainty is that it had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam!"

Flying Binghi
18th Jun 2016, 08:57
Hmmm... where did my previous post go ?

If yer going to address me in a post Krystal n chips, then leave me posts alone.


Back to the thread subject...


"...Diana Peters, 65, who had known Mr Mair for many years. She said he had taught migrants English at a college in Dewsbury..."

The chap taught migrants! ...Something strange here.

Jo Cox MP shot: Thomas Mair charged with murder as police reveal far-Right wing links are 'priority line of inquiry' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-labour-mps-security-was-being-increased-after-thre/)





.

TEEEJ
18th Jun 2016, 10:03
Flying Binghi wrote

I suggest some kids done a good photoshop job.

Good grief not the "photoshop analysis brigade"! :rolleyes:

The image from 2015 appears on the britainfirst.org website.

http://www.britainfirst.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/41.jpg

http://www.britainfirst.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/41.jpg

http://www.britainfirst.org/northern-brigade-activists-visit-26-mosques-across-dewsbury-and-bradford/

Image also posted at the time on their Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialBritainFirst/posts/890870814391514

Sallyann1234
18th Jun 2016, 10:23
SASless
Sallyann....how does showing an arrest bias a Jury?
I would assume Jury Members are "Charged" by the Judge and instructed on how to weigh evidence and testimony given in Court during the prosecution of a Defendant.

Not just the arrest on the street near the murder, but all the subsequent press coverage. I personally have no doubt whatever that the arrested (and now charged) man is guilty. I could not honestly serve on a jury and forget all that I've seen and heard about the man. Could you?

I'd certainly be interested in the expert opinion on this.

Tinytim
18th Jun 2016, 10:29
This was a disgusting act carried out by a deranged individual. There is no doubting that the young lady was a committed and decent person and this represents an awful tragedy for those who loved her.

The fact is that she chose to put heself in harms way as a visible and outspoken public servant as do all other MPs. She is not the first such individual to be assassinated and will not be the last.

The near hysteria that has gripped the media ( reporting this to the exclusion of virtualy all else.......ad infinitum) and politicians all desperately jockeying to make political capital does the memory of the lady no service, neither does the suspension of the democratic process leading up to the most important decision we may make in our lifetime.

This lady deserves our respect and thanks but not her deification as some latter day saint.....

Now.......can we get on with the democratic process that she held so dear please.

Martin the Martian
18th Jun 2016, 10:50
Charming.

Thomas Mair told Westminster Magistrates' Court, "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain", when asked to confirm his name.

Man in court over killing of MP Jo Cox - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36567005)

Incidentally, anyone know why he is in front of the Westminster magistrates' court rather than one in Yorkshire?

ORAC
18th Jun 2016, 11:00
A good question, it does seem contrary to the legal guidance.

"Local justice areas are used to determine which magistrates' court+s may hear a particular case. Specifically, cases may only be heard in courts which are in:

* a place in the local justice area in which the offence is alleged to have been committed,
* a place in the local justice area in which the person charged with the offence resides,
* a place in the local justice area in which the witnesses, or the majority of the witnesses, reside, or
* a place where other cases raising similar issues are being dealt with."

Granite City Express
18th Jun 2016, 11:27
Incidentally, anyone know why he is in front of the Westminster magistrates' court rather than one in Yorkshire?I believe he is being charged under terrorism laws. I think is how all terrorists are treated in England and Wales are treated. They will be taken to a high security police station in London (Paddington Green?), and I think The Old Bailey is used to process terrorists.

Flying Lawyer, you specifically mentioned that the Remain campaign would use this tragedy. Both sides have been attempting to make capital out of this terrorist attack.

From this I take your bias to be clear.

Flying Binghi, you are just contemptible.

ex_matelot
18th Jun 2016, 11:34
I wonder whether the MPs, Cameron, and the media going on record already describing it as a 'hate crime' will prejudice the trial?

VP959
18th Jun 2016, 11:51
SASless


Not just the arrest on the street near the murder, but all the subsequent press coverage. I personally have no doubt whatever that the arrested (and now charged) man is guilty. I could not honestly serve on a jury and forget all that I've seen and heard about the man. Could you?

I'd certainly be interested in the expert opinion on this.
My experience of jury service is that there seems to be a fairly robust system aimed at minimising pre-judgement of guilt or innocence by the jury, based on media reporting.

In my experience we dealt with a case that, at the time, had received a lot of publicity in the local press and some in the nationals. The defendant's name was fairly common knowledge in light of the nature of the alleged offence and the reporting that this attracted. We were very thoroughly briefed by the judge at the start of the case, and he paid particular regard to reminding us that we were to ignore anything we had read or heard in the media and decide solely on the evidence presented in court.

I have to say that, as far as I could tell, all the members of the jury did exactly that, in fact I think most were surprised that the evidence presented was very significantly different to the media reporting. Obviously I can't go into details, but the one major influence that two week trial had on me was to instil a deep mistrust of all media news reporting, particularly that in newspapers.

Anyway, at this stage we don't know how the defendant will plead, so the question as to whether or not a jury might be influenced by reporting may well not arise.

ORAC
18th Jun 2016, 12:03
I believe he is being charged under terrorism laws. I think is how all terrorists are treated in England and Wales are treated.

Nope,

"Mair, 52, from Birstall, was formally charged at Westminster magistrates court on Saturday with:

the murder of Joanne Cox,
grievous bodily harm,
possession of a firearm with intent to commit an indictable offence and
possession of an offensive weapon."

Martin the Martian
18th Jun 2016, 12:30
I suspect -after his appearance at the court today- that he will not be pleading guilty, so that he can get his day in court and get the publicity he wants, sadly.

Flying Lawyer
18th Jun 2016, 12:37
GCE

Flying Lawyer, you specifically mentioned that the Remain campaign would use this tragedy.

What I actually said was:Unfortunately, it won't stop the disreputable elements of the Remain campaign trying to capitalise on the tragedy.I said "stop" because I was aware from media reports that some were already doing so.

Both sides have been attempting to make capital out of this If that is correct, and I had been aware of it when I posted, then I would have referred to disreputable elements on both sides.

From this I take your bias to be clear.
IMHO, stooping to such conduct is equally disgraceful whoever does it.

I have no control over what you choose to take from what I post. That's life.

EGLD
18th Jun 2016, 13:14
Ah well, looks like Jo Cox did die in vain.

You guys make me weep.

Since a moderator removed one of my previous posts, Flying Lawyer,
you will be pleased to know you share the same opinion as Nick Griffin, one time BNP Leader. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jo-cox-death-nick-griffin-remain-campaign-response-bnp-a7087001.html)

I heard Nick Griffin also likes sunny weather - BOOM, so you're in bed with Nick Griffin too, you right wing psychopath

Thomas Mair told Westminster Magistrates' Court, "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain", when asked to confirm his name.

Ok, I'm no conspiraloon, but am I alone in being a teensy bit suspicious of all this?

Flying Binghi
18th Jun 2016, 13:49
via Granite City Express:
Flying Binghi, you are just contemptible.


Granite City Express, with the incompetence and dishonesty of todays media if yer default setting when reading anything is not one of deep suspicion then I'd say yer very, very, gullible..:hmm:





.

Captivep
18th Jun 2016, 13:49
EGLD - perhaps the best way of not being thought a "conspiraloon" is to share what your suspicions are...

SASless
18th Jun 2016, 14:19
...I think most were surprised that the evidence presented was very significantly different to the media reporting....

That is an honest statement for sure.

What I find "surprising" is that the Jury Members were "surprised" the Media Reporting was not accurate.

I suppose that is an indictment of today's Society (and not just in the UK mind you) that there is no outcry by the People over the Media failing to provide the "Truth" when reporting the "News".

We can expect them to lie when it comes to Editorial material but they should be very careful to draw a very sharp line between News and Editorializing!

EGLD
18th Jun 2016, 16:36
EGLD - perhaps the best way of not being thought a "conspiraloon" is to share what your suspicions are...

Well with the remainiacs despicably using this sad event for political gain, if I was a conspiraloon ana suspected there was something fishy about the whole thing, the perpretator fanning the flames as he has done by giving his name as "death to traitors, freedom for Britain" is almost too perfect.

Kitbag
18th Jun 2016, 17:03
giving his name as "death to traitors, freedom for Britain" is almost too perfect.

More likely he is not of sound mind and will be found unfit to stand trial. Maybe an indictment of the Cinderella treatment of our mental health service and policy?

bcgallacher
18th Jun 2016, 17:09
I think the media and some individuals are trying to read too much into this dreadful event. It would appear to me that the lady was murdered by a deranged individual - whether his views were of the right,left or religious are absolutely irrelevant,he is simply a mentally disturbed nutter.

vulcanised
18th Jun 2016, 17:30
I agree with that.

There was no great plan or conspiracy. He simply chose the nearest political target.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Jun 2016, 18:02
whether his views were of the right,left or religious are absolutely irrelevant,he is simply a mentally disturbed nutter.
And you can say the same about all terrorists, and all criminals in fact, because sane people don't behave like that. There, you are, crime abolished at the stroke of a keyboard!


Of course you could end up taking this slightly to far: Soviet Russia, for example, used to lock up political dissidents in loony bins on the grounds that anyone who tried to fight the state must be bonkers, and we, within living memory, used to lock up single mothers in loony bins (or, worse, convents) on the grounds that nobody sane would choose to get pregnant whilst not married.

Tankertrashnav
18th Jun 2016, 18:21
I have to say that, as far as I could tell, all the members of the jury did exactly that, in fact I think most were surprised that the evidence presented was very significantly different to the media reporting. Obviously I can't go into details, but the one major influence that two week trial had on me was to instil a deep mistrust of all media news reporting, particularly that in newspapers.

My son had a similar experience when he served on a jury. A popular local man had been accidentally killed and a "up-country" (ie non Cornish) visitor was charged with his manslaughter. Pre-trial reporting in the local media was partisan in the extreme and there was little doubt that the accused was guilty.

When the jury returned a "not-guilty" verdict there was general disbelief, and an acquaintance of mine, who was unaware of the fact that my son had been in the jury, told me she thought the jury must have been idiots. In fact I gathered from my son that the evidence they had been presented with in court was nothing like the story that had been put out in the local press. I don't think this has any bearing on the current matter, but it does tend to reinforce faith in the jury system.

Captivep
18th Jun 2016, 18:26
EGLD - So, the suspicion you dare not name for being thought a "conspiraloon" is that she was murdered in a false flag operation by the remain side in order to discredit the leave side?

Either you don't believe that's possible (in which case why mention it?) or you do (in which case "conspiraloon" seems quite apt).

Heliport
18th Jun 2016, 18:53
Gertrude

And you can say the same about all terrorists, and all criminals in fact, because sane people don't behave like that.



Do you really believe that or were you just trolling?

G0ULI
18th Jun 2016, 19:10
Unfortunately so long as we remain in the EU we can't give the chap a suspended sentence, with a noose.

Granite City Express
18th Jun 2016, 21:01
Flying Lawyer,

I give you gouli's last post as a perfect example of how both sides are using this terrorist attack for their own pathetic politicking.

Unfortunately so long as we remain in the EU we can't give the chap a suspended sentence, with a noose.

I have no control over what you choose to take from what I post.However, your dual role here does mean what you write carries maybe a little more weight for better or worse. The general direction of travel here is towards the right and support for UKIP appears to be the political persuasion du jour.

For the conspiraloon
I heard Nick Griffin also likes sunny weather - BOOM, so you're in bed with Nick Griffin too, you right wing psychopath
I prefer snowy weather, but keep going you are doing a fine job...

There was no great plan or conspiracy. He simply chose the nearest political target.You can't see the fundamental contradiction in two short statements? Really?

Flying Lawyer
18th Jun 2016, 22:15
G0ULI
so long as we remain in the EU we can't give the chap a suspended sentence, with a noose.The UK abolished the death penalty before we joined what ultimately became the EU.

The death penalty for murder in England, Scotland & Wales was suspended for a period of five years by the Murder (Abolition of the Death Penalty) Act 1965 and abolished in 1969, before the 'suspension' period expired.
(It was subsequently abolished for all offences in 1998.)

I agree that there is (effectively) no prospect of capital punishment being re-introduced in the UK whilst the UK is a member of the EU and, in very brief summary, because of the UK's obligations arising from its membership of the Council of Europe which is a separate body.

GCE
Note that I expressed no view, either way, about capital punishment.
That was intentional.

I do not have a "dual role here".

What weight people attach to what I say is up to them.

Granite City Express
18th Jun 2016, 22:50
Note that I expressed no view, either way, about capital punishment.
That was intentional.Poorly formatted reply, on my part, apologies.

I do not have a "dual role here". If you say so...

Anyway, David Cameron started this EU Referendum pantomime in direct contradiction to the promises made during the Scottish Referendum. This EU Referendum was nothing more than a sop to the UKIP tendencies in his party, since then we have seen the rise of something nasty, something unpleasant which has ultimately led to the assassination of a politician by a right wing terrorist.

There is an ugliness permeating this country and this piece of writing is one that strikes close to home:
http://www.fototime.com/4FC53B3C1B0369C/standard.jpg

SASless
18th Jun 2016, 22:52
Wise folk shall give much weight to anything FL has to offer.:ok:

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Jun 2016, 23:32
There is an ugliness permeating this country and this piece of writing is one that strikes close to home:

In particular, "look in horror at clear parallels in early twentieth century German history", which point is being made by many people over the last couple of days.

G0ULI
18th Jun 2016, 23:44
GCE and Flying Lawyer

Thank you for your comments. Irony clearly does not translate well to the Internet.

I am certain that the late Jo Cox MP was no supporter of the death penalty, nor would she have wished to see such a punishment visited on her murderer.

The irony is that our abolition of the death penalty and continuing membership of the EU will ensure that capital punishment remains an historical footnote in the statute books. The murderer will be allowed to live out his natural life because of the very things he appears to have been campaigning against.

Life is cruel. (<- irony)

GCE - While we may never agree as to the EU, I should point out that I am neither right wing, nor might I be considered a "full" British citizen, although I have the right to vote and reside permanently in the UK.

Granite City Express
19th Jun 2016, 00:13
nor might I be considered a "full" British citizen, although I have the right to vote That means you *ARE* a full British citizen. You certainly have more rights than my wife who cannot vote in this referendum. As an EU immigrant this vote will have a direct and potentially life changing impact on her and my family. That, I am sure you will agree, is irony.

I should point out that I am neither right wingYou do a very good impression of one....

G0ULI
19th Jun 2016, 00:36
GCE
Your wife will be entitled to apply for full British citizenship should she wish to do so once certain requirements have been met. The Home Office website contains full details on how to apply. Continued membership of the EU or otherwise will have no effect on this process. Generally speaking, once you have been married for three years, she should be able to apply for British citizenship if she wishes. Many people who have permanent leave to remain in the UK choose never to apply for British citizenship because they may have to surrender citizenship in the country of their birth. That can cause problems when travelling to visit family, friends and relations.

I had to choose which nationality I wanted to adopt when I turned 18. Choosing to adopt British nationality meant I only got to see relatives living abroad when they visited the UK. I could not visit them without risking arrest. It is not an easy choice to make.

Granite City Express
19th Jun 2016, 01:05
My wife does not want to take British citizenship. Frankly, following the past weeks of being made to feel as welcome as a bacon sandwich at a Bar Mitzvah, why should she? UKIP politicians abusing her & her family and now facist terrorists assassinating politicians they disagree with. It makes me question why the hell I should stay in this country and let my son be abused as "The Immigrant Boy" in his class at school. Doesn't matter that his Scottish accent is broader than mine.

These are things that have only started happening in the last few weeks. To say that it is not linked to the EU referendum is blind stupidity. This referendum has, in the words of Polly Toynbee (whom I have very very little time for), unleashed furies even the right wing can't control. (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/brexit-supporters-leave-vote-right)

Toynbee's article was prescient, being written 2 days before the politically motivated assassination of Jo Cox by a brexit supporting nazi terrorist.

Unless you are utterly stupid, how can anyone not see that David Cameron and his Bullingdon Club thugs have ripped this country to shreds, morally, emotionally, financially and constitutionally?

There was time I was proud to be British, proud to serve my country in the armed forces. No more. I am Scottish first, European second and only for the purposes of passport information, British.

This referendum was unnecessary and it has fundamentally shown Britain, but England more than anything, to be a country that hates immigrants, and has support for a political party that are thinly disguised racists.

G0ULI
19th Jun 2016, 01:34
GCE

This was not an assassination, it was murder.

A brutal cold blooded murder.

Nothing should detract from the impact of those words.

On everything else we are in agreement.

Granite City Express
19th Jun 2016, 01:48
No.

It was a politically motivated assassination.

Definition of assassination. (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/assassinate)

The deliberate actions of the assassin, before and after, point squarely to that. He has decided to have his day in court and will doubtless be hoping to garner as much publicity for his twisted xenophobic hate filled beliefs.

fitliker
19th Jun 2016, 03:06
Shortly after the Columbine School Massacre . While most were still in shock one of Lawyers we used to fly around said " He thought it would not be the last school shooting and we could expect to see more " .Sadly he was right.
I wonder what Harry Rankin would make of this unusual murder.


The new normal ?

Flying Lawyer
19th Jun 2016, 07:54
GCE
Unless you are utterly stupid, how can anyone not see that David Cameron and his Bullingdon Club thugs have ripped this country to shreds, morally, emotionally, financially and constitutionally?
That is tantamount to saying that, unless they are utterly stupid, anyone would agree with your political opinions.

With respect, you seem to be extremely intolerant of any views other than those which coincide with your own.

sitigeltfel
19th Jun 2016, 08:49
Watching Jeremy Corbyn laying flowers in memoriam of Jo Cox had me reaching for the sick bag. Here was a man who has paid homage to IRA terrorists who murdered three MPs, Sir Anthony Berry, Airey Neave and Ian Gow. As they were all Tories, their murders did not seem to cause him too much grief.

EGLD
19th Jun 2016, 10:44
the politically motivated assassination of Jo Cox by a brexit supporting nazi terrorist.

you're contribution over the last few pages - "if you are concerned about the anti-democratic nature of the EU, you are no better than a mentallly ill murderer and Nick Griffin"

Sadly, I think people are being swayed by your appalling logic as today's polls are showing.

I honestly thought people would be above using this terrible event to sledgehammer their Pro-EU message, but that was never going to happen was it. :(

EGLD
19th Jun 2016, 11:01
Apologies if already posted;

Lexit - The left wing case for leaving the EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4

Flying Binghi
19th Jun 2016, 12:09
via EGLD:
Apologies if already posted;

Lexit - The left wing case for leaving the EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4
EGLD is online now Report Post


EGLD, I just looked at the first few minutes though its looking like a big bank conspiracy video. If that is so then I guess the videos implications are that the so-called left are the useful idiots in all this by wanting to stay with the un-elected eurocrates.




.

Granite City Express
19th Jun 2016, 12:14
With respect, you seem to be extremely intolerant of any views other than those which coincide with your own.I am fitting in with the general ethos and SOP of this forum.

I am EXTREMELY intolerant of right wing bigotry and fascism. I will stand my ground and give no quarter when it comes to the right wing who peddle lies and disinformation (https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/1068). There is a very real and present danger (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/english-far-right-nationalism_us_5762ea96e4b09c926cfe81da?) that the right wing has been energised and given a legitimacy that is undeserved, ultimately leading to the assassination of a politician who stood for everything the right wing dislike. So you had better believe I will be unbending in my opposition to anyone giving this terrorist any lee-way by referring to him as being mentally disturbed. He was sound enough of mind to source or build a firearm, to buy nazi paraphernalia and order right wing material from the USA and South Africa.

Let me put a little context in to this. My great uncle survived Arnhem and was part of one of the first British regiments to have to deal with the discovery of nazi concentration camps. He fell in love with one of the camp inmates who became my great aunt. Both of them wrote about their experiences on the promise that the documents would remain sealed until after their deaths. My aunt let me read their stories, and they were horrific. Our family agreed that the best thing for these deeply personal experiences of fascism should be donated to the Anne Frank Museum to be stored and kept to remind people what happens when fascism is given legitimacy and power.

I will do whatever is in my power to oppose far right bigotry and racism. This vile far-right support should never again be given an opportunity to get even a toe hold in Britain and Europe.

If the EU is one method of doing this I will support it, along with the business and social benefits it provides to the UK.

Flying Binghi
19th Jun 2016, 12:26
via Granite City Express:...He was sound enough of mind to source or build a firearm, to buy nazi paraphernalia and order right wing material from the USA and South Africa...
...Let me put a little context in to this. My great uncle survived Arnhem and was part of one of the first British regiments to have to deal with the discovery of nazi concentration camps...

Granite City Express, I see no court findings of any sort in regards to the chap accused of this crime.

Attempting to tie the Holocaust to this issue is pathetic in the extreme..:hmm:





.

bosnich71
19th Jun 2016, 12:57
This blog is getting sillier by the day.Now anyone who thinks that the UK should run its' own affairs ,outside of the EU ,is a Nazi and all EU citizens will be returned to their country of origin if the vote is out.

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jun 2016, 13:00
GCE ... so everyone who,disagrees with this unrepresentive swill known as the E U is now a Nazi ?
Of course not. But they are making common cause with neo-Nazi terrorists, whether they like it, or intend it, or not.

Granite City Express
19th Jun 2016, 13:07
I see no court findings of any sort in regards to the chap accused of this crime. Then look closer. Mr Mair, 52, faces charges of murder, grievous bodily harm, possession of a firearm with intent to commit an indictable offence and possession of an offensive weapon. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36567005)

If you are an example of the fabled Australian points based system of immigration, it appears to be flawed.

PDR1
19th Jun 2016, 13:12
That's a charge, not a court FINDING.

And before you start suggesting I'm insensitive to the dangers of fascism - I'm only here because my father was brought to the UK thanks to Nicholas Winton; many of my family suffered the fate of your great aunt, but did not survive the experience.

PDR

G0ULI
19th Jun 2016, 13:14
Far right bigotry and fascism arose in Germany in response to the uncontrolled movement of people displaced from the East of Europe due to the Russian revolution and other political issues prior and subsequent to that.

This is a matter of historical record.

The resurgence of far right movements in Europe and the UK would appear to be motivated by very similar social pressures relating to the unrestricted movement of people.

Unless some controls are put in place to limit the number of migrants coming to Europe and the UK, then history is doomed to repeat itself with increasingly right wing, bigoted groups coming to ascendency in many countries.

That is why the forthcoming referendum is actually about far more than just whether Britain stays in the EU or not. The fact that this referendum is even taking place may act to spur European politicians into facing the realities of the crisis facing Europe and allow for suitable control methods to be introduced with regards to immigration and population movement. This is not racism or bigotry, it is essential to allow continued peace and stability within the EU and the whole of Europe.

It seems that it has taken the tragic murder of one of our most talented and committed MPs to shake politicians from their complacency. One can only hope that her life was not lost in vain.

EGLD
19th Jun 2016, 13:33
If the EU is one method of doing this I will support it

The EU is largely at fault for the rise in far right politics in Europe.

To want to self govern is not a right wing trait.

Extremism thrives when people are deprived of democratic ways to shape their own future.

There's a distinct whiff of virtue signalling in some of the "remain" arguments, you can tell by all the luvvies queuing up on that side from behind their gated communities.

Flying Lawyer
19th Jun 2016, 14:14
Granite City Express

I'd be interested in your response to the first point I made in post 102.
You have responsed only to the second.I am fitting in with the general ethos and SOP of this forum.If you say so ...

Have you considered trying to rise above the personal attacks/offensive comments which sometimes appear (on both sides political divides) in this forum and offering calm, unemotional, balanced arguments?
I am EXTREMELY intolerant of right wing bigotry and fascism.That, of course, depends upon what one considers to be bigotry and what opinions one considers to be right wing or even fascist (your choice of language).
People who hold strong views about a topic frequently accuse those who hold equally strong but different views of being bigots - without appreciating the irony of the accusation. That happens quite frequently in this forum.
I will be unbending in my opposition to anyone ...... referring to him as being mentally disturbed. In common with you, I don't know whether the man is suffering from a mental disorder.
In contrast to you, I shall keep an open mind about it until the facts are known.He was sound enough of mind to source or build a firearm, to buy nazi paraphernalia and order right wing material from the USA and South Africa.
Your understanding of mental disorder is flawed.
By way of general comment, NOT specific to this individual:

People with mental disorder(s) may or may not, depending upon the nature and degree of their disorder(s), be capable of carrying on their lives entirely competently except when they have a psychotic episode.

I regularly encounter people who have done the most dreadful things - sometimes so awful that, if one didn't know the circumstances, it would be impossible to comprehend how anyone could do such things to another human being. However, they didn't do those things because they are evil but because of their mental disorder.

I chair Mental Health Tribunals which review the cases of patients detained at Broadmoor, the well-known high security psychiatric hospital. In many instances the hearings are very similar to ordinary meetings - the level of security in the tribunal room varies according to the patient's condition.
On other occasions, the patients are too dangerous to be brought to us so we go to their ultra high security ward where they are held by two specially trained nurses throughout the hearing with, quite often, others in the room and, on some occasions, even more on standby immediately outside the door.
They are extremely dangerous but they are not evil; they are very ill. That is why they are detained in ultra high security conditions in an already high security psychiatric hospital.

IMHO, the Clinical Director at Broadmoor Hospital summed it up very well a couple of years ago: It’s very easy to see somebody as either a perpetrator or a victim.
It’s much more difficult to understand that somebody might be both.

bosnich71
19th Jun 2016, 14:24
Gertrude ...as I said,this blog is getting silly.Now anyone who doesn't agree with the remain side is guilty of association with 'Neo Nazi terrorists.
.....and all the eu citizens will be carted off to 'concentration' camps within days of leave vote I suppose.
P.s. I see Osbourne is playing the "Nazi" now.

SASless
19th Jun 2016, 14:27
Being a disinterested observer of all this....I find it a bit interesting that no one has suggested the Left has played any role whatsoever in the situation unfolding before our eyes.

I hear folks accusing Right Wingers and Right Winged Extremists of being the problem or posing the danger here.

What provokes those folks? What are the Issues that are causing their opposition?

If the "Right" are the ones making the noise today....exactly what has hit their Hot Buttons? Is the "Left" pushing too hard on unpopular issues?

Could the EU and its policies be out of touch with some or all of the People of the EU countries?

As was warned about when this all was starting....how does one Nation's Citizens fit into such a grand scheme as the EU? Such an arrangement requires compromise from all parties.

Is War the ultimate outcome if the EU falls apart.....Really?

Are the forecasts of gloom and doom about Europe post EU being over-hyped?

VP959
19th Jun 2016, 14:38
And, in direct response to those useful points, FL, I would suggest that, at this moment, we have no idea whatsoever as to the true motive and reasoning of the man charged with her murder. All we do seem to know is that he had suffered from some form of mental illness, we don't even know whether this was recurrent, whether he was currently being treated, or whether his illness was confined to a period in his past.

People are making very broad assumptions that he was acting in some way as an agent of a particular politically motivated group. I suggest that we do not KNOW that at all, all we have is speculation by the media, much of which will be very inaccurate, I am sure.

None of us on this forum can begin to guess the true motive of the murderer of Jo Cox based on the information and misinformation that we have access to. If we ever do discover it I doubt it will be as straightforward as a disagreement over political views, as being postulated by some. If the murderer was suffering from a mental illness at the time then that makes the task of determining the true motive even harder.

The mentally ill often fail to have the same rational thought processes that we might have, and I know beyond any doubt (from a friend who has suffered from mental illness for decades) that some cannot properly relate cause and effect in their minds, such that they have no proper sense of guilt or innocence when it comes to their own actions.

None of the above is intended to be read as an excuse for the actions of anyone, my intention was to illustrate that we just have no solid facts at all to go on when it comes to speculating about the motive for this murder.

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jun 2016, 14:55
If the "Right" are the ones making the noise today....exactly what has hit their Hot Buttons? Is the "Left" pushing too hard on unpopular issues?
In a liberal democracy the response to losing an argument is supposed to be coming up with a better argument, not terrorism.


Edit to add:


Put it this way. If the right lose an argument, by not getting enough votes, and their response is to resort to terrorism, do they by this means think they will get


(a) more, or
(b) fewer


votes to help them win the next argument?

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jun 2016, 15:11
Where will the Conservative votes go?
Well, not to UKIP or LibDems, as they won't be standing candidates either (I haven't heard of a decision from the Greens yet but can't see them getting many Tory votes).


The only other declared candidate so far is some right wing nutter from some neo-Nazi "party". I do not think he will collect votes from the vast majority of decent Tories.

Tankertrashnav
19th Jun 2016, 16:40
Also save the parties not standing a lot of money and save quite a few hundred trees from being chopped down to turn into paper for election bumf, which in my case goes straight from the letterbox to the recycling bin.

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jun 2016, 16:44
election bumf, which in my case goes straight from the letterbox to the recycling bin.
Guess what, we know that!! - the challenge is to write something that registers in the second and a half you're actually handling it.

glad rag
19th Jun 2016, 17:19
I am fitting in with the general ethos and SOP of this forum.

I am EXTREMELY intolerant of right wing bigotry and fascism. I will stand my ground and give no quarter when it comes to the right wing who peddle lies and disinformation (https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/1068). There is a very real and present danger (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/english-far-right-nationalism_us_5762ea96e4b09c926cfe81da?) that the right wing has been energised and given a legitimacy that is undeserved, ultimately leading to the assassination of a politician who stood for everything the right wing dislike. So you had better believe I will be unbending in my opposition to anyone giving this terrorist any lee-way by referring to him as being mentally disturbed. He was sound enough of mind to source or build a firearm, to buy nazi paraphernalia and order right wing material from the USA and South Africa.

Let me put a little context in to this. My great uncle survived Arnhem and was part of one of the first British regiments to have to deal with the discovery of nazi concentration camps. He fell in love with one of the camp inmates who became my great aunt. Both of them wrote about their experiences on the promise that the documents would remain sealed until after their deaths. My aunt let me read their stories, and they were horrific. Our family agreed that the best thing for these deeply personal experiences of fascism should be donated to the Anne Frank Museum to be stored and kept to remind people what happens when fascism is given legitimacy and power.

I will do whatever is in my power to oppose far right bigotry and racism. This vile far-right support should never again be given an opportunity to get even a toe hold in Britain and Europe.

If the EU is one method of doing this I will support it, along with the business and social benefits it provides to the UK.

discounting your personal and emotional last 3 paragraphs [which have nothing to do with the thread] can you not see that the apparant facist leaninng of the charged [mental health issues or not] is EXACTLY in line with the facism of the unelected EU commissioners [commisars]

?

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jun 2016, 17:24
can you not see that the apparant facist leaninng of the charged ... is EXACTLY in line with the facism of the unelected EU commissioners [commisars]
It seems unlikely that anyone other than a weirdly deluded conspiracy theorist could "see" that, on account of it's not there to see.

EGLD
19th Jun 2016, 18:34
http://i.imgur.com/FhpykBC.jpg

#VoteRemainForJo

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jun 2016, 18:49
#VoteRemainForJo
And see also https://www.gofundme.com/jocox

Mr Optimistic
19th Jun 2016, 19:27
Just another nutter. Every now and again one will express himself. And its always a 'him' sadly. Reminds me of that poor woman who was stabbed for no reason in 2005. Unfortunately we now have a tribe of primitives who think they are doing God's work and Paradise, pomegranate s and virgins await.

G0ULI
19th Jun 2016, 19:31
Interesting to speculate that if Britain hadn't become a member of the EU then this murder would never have happened. Interesting how global events can have such an impact on a single life and yet a single life can affect global events. I have a feeling that we are witnessing one of those points in history.

Mr Optimistic
19th Jun 2016, 19:36
Can't see that. This guy would have found a tipping point somewhere. That she was a woman, reasonably good looking and positive probably didn't help.

EGLD
19th Jun 2016, 19:41
And see also https://www.gofundme.com/jocox

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e7/4a/4e/e74a4e8f1db5f3afbd8c0c2c0f254fd8.jpg

yellowtriumph
19th Jun 2016, 19:45
Well I suppose someone has to say it and my post may well be deleted for doing so.

I'm sure that Jo Cox was a lovely lady, clearly caring and compassionate. She also had firm views on the Referendum and no one can deny she had an absolute right to her views. But they were just the views of one person and carried no more weight than any other citizen in the UK.

I am almost certain to vote to leave next week. If I wake up on Friday and find the UK has voted to remain I'll just shrug my shoulders, mutter, mutter again, and think to myself oh well we will just have to make the best of it. But because the death of Jo Cox is being cynically used by some in the remain campaign to emotionally appeal to people into voting 'remain' then I think a large number of leave voters will wake up on Friday and think 'We were robbed'.

The murder of Jo Cox was absolutely appalling, but it has to be kept out of the debate. Is that fair comment?

Mr Optimistic
19th Jun 2016, 20:07
Oddly I have changed my mind. This disgusting incident aside, my children are voting remain. I do not wish to vote against them.

Pontius Navigator
19th Jun 2016, 20:13
YT, I suspect the underlying motive might have had only a tenuous connection with the referendum and far more to do with anti-Isil and, by connection a supporter of Syrian refugees and hence immigrants.

SASless
19th Jun 2016, 20:16
I am EXTREMELY intolerant of right wing bigotry and fascism.


Nothing like being objective and even handed in one's intolerance!:ok:

I don't suppose you are equally offended by Left Wing bigotry as well?:rolleyes:

Mr Optimistic
19th Jun 2016, 20:18
He was just a frustrated loser. With a knife and a gun and a sense of his lack of relevance and empowerment. No philosophy required here.

Geordie_Expat
19th Jun 2016, 20:18
Well I suppose someone has to say it and my post may well be deleted for doing so.

I'm sure that Jo Cox was a lovely lady, clearly caring and compassionate. She also had firm views on the Referendum and no one can deny she had an absolute right to her views. But they were just the views of one person and carried no more weight than any other citizen in the UK.

I am almost certain to vote to leave next week. If I wake up on Friday and find the UK has voted to remain I'll just shrug my shoulders, mutter, mutter again, and think to myself oh well we will just have to make the best of it. But because the death of Jo Cox is being cynically used by some in the remain campaign to emotionally appeal to people into voting 'remain' then I think a large number of leave voters will wake up on Friday and think 'We were robbed'.

The murder of Jo Cox was absolutely appalling, but it has to be kept out of the debate. Is that fair comment?


Absolutely ! And I do not think "#VoteRemainForJo" is in particularly good taste to put it mildly.

alwayzinit
19th Jun 2016, 20:55
http://www.pprune.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=569&stc=1&d=1466365812

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jun 2016, 20:58
Is that fair comment?
I think the difference is that we are now allowed to say out loud that this is a culture clash between liberalism and fascism, something that would have sounded ludicrous at the beginning of the campaign when it all seemed to be about which vote would get you more money. (Which is important, but has never been the main point.)

alwayzinit
19th Jun 2016, 21:29
Gertie me dear, "I think the difference is that we are now allowed to say out loud that this is a culture clash between liberalism and fascism, something that would have sounded ludicrous at the beginning of the campaign when it all seemed to be about which vote would get you more money. (Which is important, but has never been the main point.)"

Really??! I do not think that wishing to regain the ability to select or deselect those who formulate our laws is Fascism by anyone's definition.

As for Liberalism, my view of that is plain from my previous pictorial post.

Totalitarianism, be Left, Right or Centre is Anti Democratic. What is rapidly evolving over in Brussels is a Totalitarian State.

We have even had UK MPs stating that we, the electorate, should do as we are told, that is before they had remove the posts.

Without doubt this referendum has had a shattering effect on the cozy clubs and quite rooms where our lives are ruled.
It has been a long time since the Establishment were given a reality reminder and they only have themselves to blame for dismissing a large proportion of the population's concerns with just name calling and disdain.

Our current PM thinks that it will all be back to normal on Friday morning, I for one think he is very deluded or trying to bluff away the obvious.

This is NOT the 1930s, where Black Shirts were parading around Europe, with the support of many in the Establishment. To imply it is is simple exaggeration and hysterics.
What we have got is a revived interest in how and who runs our country, now THAT can only be good as it is the very essence of Democracy.

SASless
19th Jun 2016, 22:01
Did not the Scots do much the same not so long ago?

G0ULI
19th Jun 2016, 22:46
Who did they murder to ensure a remain vote?


Probably inappropriate sarcasm and irony before you all jump in. :rolleyes:

Flying Lawyer
19th Jun 2016, 22:49
GertrudeAnd when any pensioners who are insane enough to vote leave discover that there's nobody working to pay their pension any more ...Nobody will be working if we leave the EU?
And you can say the same about all terrorists, and all criminals in fact, because sane people don't behave like that.All criminals are insane?
I think the difference is that we are now allowed to say out loud that this is a culture clash between liberalism and fascism, something that would have sounded ludicrous at the beginning of the campaignIt sounds equally ludicrous now.

For an intelligent man, you come out with some extraordinary things.
Do you genuinely believe any of the propositions I have quoted above? :confused:


yellowtriumphThe murder of Jo Cox was absolutely appalling, but it has to be kept out of the debate. Is that fair comment?
It certainly should be kept out, in my view.
Unfortunately, the terrible tragedy is being used by some to try to gather support for their 'side'. Predictable, but no less disgraceful for that.
I don't think any intelligent person would make such an important (and for me difficult) decision on that basis but I have no doubt that some voters will.

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Jun 2016, 23:03
Do you genuinely believe any of the propositions I have quoted above? :confused:
Sigh. I was writing on an internet chat board, not trying to put together an accurate technical or legal document, and I think really you should have read it as such.


(1) That was, blindingly obviously, exaggeration for effect. Of course some people will still be working, just not enough to pay the pensions.


(2) No of course not. I was trying to illustrate the absurdity of the claim someone appeared to be making that because someone was a nutter they couldn't also be a terrorist. Sorry if my linguistic devices were too clever for you.


(3) It might do to you, but not to everybody. Wouldn't it be boring if everybody thought the same?

galaxy flyer
19th Jun 2016, 23:11
The Brexit vote will, in some ways, presage the Trump v. Clinton vote. The elites, schooled at Harvard or Oxbridge or the Grandes Ecoles; living in Washington or Wall St, or Brussels; have been patting the general populace of workers on the head and saying, "we know what's best for you" for far too long. Well, the populace, especially those that actually work, pay taxes and deal with bureaucrats, have had enough--vote the scoundrels OUT is thus year's political message.

Governments, Brussels or DC, have accreted too much power, have messed up too much to continue. No, killing them isn't right and that's NOT my message.

I don't like Trump, but I do understand his appeal. I suspect it is much like Brexit.

GF

foresight
19th Jun 2016, 23:29
I think the difference is that we are now allowed to say out loud that this is a culture clash between liberalism and fascism


I think we have always been allowed to make fatuous statements.