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sitigeltfel
12th Jun 2016, 15:50
Death toll fifty.

Shooter named as 30yo Omar Mateen, originally from Afghanistan.

Make what you will of that!

50 morts et 53 blessés dans la fusillade d'Orlando | La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/actu/en-direct/3982530/50-morts-et-53-blesses-dans-la-fusillade-dorlando.html)

HeartyMeatballs
12th Jun 2016, 16:10
Very shocking indeed. The worst mass shooting in US history. Peace and love - just remember that!

pattern_is_full
12th Jun 2016, 17:03
Shooter named as 30yo Omar Mateen, originally from Afghanistan.

Wrong. U.S. citizen born in New York, living in Florida. Parents from Afghanistan.

lomapaseo
12th Jun 2016, 17:18
Probable homegrown terrorist with access to the means.

When all is said and done more will be said then done.

I hope this doesn't waste bandwidth by getting into presidential politics as it belongs in the congressional politics where the real power lies.

Meanwhile gun sales will rise as will concealed carry as that is the easy response.

fa2fi
12th Jun 2016, 17:21
Media saying it's not religiously motivated. People who HATE gays usually fall into two categories:

1) They choose to follow a religion that preaches hatred toward gays.
2) They're gay and don't want to be and therefore take their anger out on other gays.

So which one is it?

PAXfips
12th Jun 2016, 17:23
3) had mistaken the shooting range

ExXB
12th Jun 2016, 17:42
Probable homegrown terrorist with access to the means.

Every US resident has access to the means

ORAC
12th Jun 2016, 17:54
Media saying it's not religiously motivated.

So it's no rush to judgement - unless it eliminates the one factor the liberal MSM desperately don't want mentioned......

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/

".......The shooter, Omar Saddiqui Mateen, is 29 and from Fort Pierce, about 120 miles southeast of Orlando, two law enforcement officials told CNN. He had been trained as a security guard, CNN has learned.

Orlando authorities said they consider the violence an act of domestic terror. The FBI is involved. While investigators are exploring all angles, they "have suggestions the individual has leanings towards (Islamic terrorism), but right now we can't say definitely," said Ron Hopper, assistant special agent in charge of the FBI's Orlando bureau....."

ORAC
12th Jun 2016, 18:00
Blood banks at capacity, donors urged to return in coming days - Orlando Sentinel (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-orlando-nightclub-shooting-blood-donations-20160612-story.html)

fa2fi
12th Jun 2016, 18:03
The tragic irony is that gay men (those who have been active with the previous year) can't donate blood. However it's nice to see that there was an overwhelming offering of donors throughout the community.

pattern_is_full
12th Jun 2016, 18:13
Doesn't really matter to me what the motive was.

Mass slaughter is mass slaughter - a crime so infinite that trying to parse it as "terror" or "hate" or "religion" or even just "rage" or "insanity," is irrelevant. No motive can make it worse than the mere fact of its occurrence. Just as no motive can justify it.

It is genocide in a minor key - "I want 'those people' to cease to exist." Be they gay, or Americans, or gay Americans. (PLEASE NOTE that I am quoting the mindset of the killer - not myself!)

I leave the minutiae of motive to those with political axes to grind - while taking full note of the fact that they are willing to politicize horror for their own ends.

fa2fi
12th Jun 2016, 18:22
I disagree somewhat. If you can identify the motive and target group, you can work with the potential perpetrators to avoid it happening in future.

Take religion A that you have chosen to follow. The several thousand year old scripture it is based on teaches you that group X has to be stoned to death in order to please the leader. As almost all religious text is open to interpretation, the leaders in religion A can educate its followers in the correct teachings and to promote tolerance or to deflect any anger/venom into something more constructive than simply massacring people.

Even the Catholic Church has come out to condemn this attack. Maybe they are changing.

andytug
12th Jun 2016, 18:36
I disagree somewhat. If you can identify the motive and target group, you can work with the potential perpetrators to avoid it happening in future.

Take religion A that you have chosen to follow. The several thousand year old scripture it is based on teaches you that group X has to be stoned to death in order to please the leader. As almost all religious text is open to interpretation, the leaders in religion A can educate its followers in the correct teachings and to promote tolerance or to deflect any anger/venom into something more constructive than simply massacring people.

Even the Catholic Church has come out to condone this attack. Maybe they are changing.

Unfortunately that doesn't fit with the main purpose of religion, which is men bending whichever religious text to suit their aim of controlling other men (and women).

pattern_is_full
12th Jun 2016, 18:44
fa2fi - I expect (and hope) you meant the CC condemned this attack, not condoned it.

fa2fi
12th Jun 2016, 18:52
Oops! Damned autocorrect! Corrected now.

alwayzinit
12th Jun 2016, 19:52
Well, no surprise that B Obama has immediately tried to politicize this terrorist attack to deflect any blame from the State or National Agencies who let this one through.
It is farcical and oxymoronic to expect criminals and terrorists to be restricted by any law!

obgraham
12th Jun 2016, 19:55
Even the Catholic Church has come out to condemn this attack. Maybe they are changing. Even corrected, what kind of completely stupid statement is this?

Sue Vêtements
12th Jun 2016, 19:56
16 posts! That's what it took :(

alwayzinit
12th Jun 2016, 20:04
Meaning, Sue?
Are you objecting to Barry's crass political grab or the fact that Criminals are by definition law breakers? As are terrorists.

MG23
12th Jun 2016, 20:08
Meanwhile gun sales will rise as will concealed carry as that is the easy response.

The club was presumably a 'gun-free zone', and hence a safe target for the nut. Pretty much anywhere else in Orlando, he would have been put down in thirty seconds by an armed citizen.

So, yes, eliminating the ban on concealed carry in bars (I believe that's still the law in Florida?) would certainly have helped.

westernhero
12th Jun 2016, 20:13
The truth hits the "gay community", they are only second in the MSM top trumps game.

The top group will not be blamed in any shape or form, 'Lone Wolf' "nothing to see here, walk away......"

Is this the coronation of President Trump ? Voted in by the deaths of 50 Democrats........how odd.

Dea Certe
12th Jun 2016, 20:29
There was no crass grab or politizing by Obama. He came out, as he should and spoke to the citizens. Hillary tweeted out her bit (more likely a staffer) in English and Spanish. Trump ranted some nonsense.

What we know is an American citizen of Afghani immigrants who worked as a security guard took automatic weapons and shot into the crowd at a gay bar. He was known to be mentally unstable as he beat his wife. The wife was removed from their home by either her parents or his.

Seems Omar did call 911 and say he was doing this in support of ISIS.

The Sultan
12th Jun 2016, 20:31
MG

There was an armed police officer there when it started so you are basically full of it like all good guy with gun delusional people.

The Sultan

SASless
12th Jun 2016, 20:35
Police are reporting the Shooter called 911 and swore his allegiance to ISIS.

Two months earlier there was a video passed around of a Mullah (or whatever one calls a Muslim Cleric preaching inside a Mosque) in Orlando calling for Gays to be killed.

The Shooter has been on an FBI Watch List but had not been investigated according to Reports.

Make of all that as you wish or nothing at all but I do find it once again to indicate how a Politically Correct Mindset forced upon our Police and Security forces sets us up for disasters like this.

Anyone preaching Murder or Incite to Riot....should immediately be taken seriously and properly investigated and charges filed if sufficient evidence can be found to warrant prosecution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBlwxqqAprQ&feature=youtu.be

Two law enforcement officials told The Daily Beast that immediately before starting his rampage, Omar Mateen called 911 and pledged his allegiance to the self-proclaimed Islamic State. (A similar pledge was made online by the San Berardino terrorists before they shot and killed 14 people last year.) ISIS called on Muslims across the world to attack targets in the West during the holy month of Ramadan, which began last week. The Amaq Agency, an ISIS media affiliate, later praised the attack and took credit for it. Yet, there is no current established link between Mateen and the terrorist outfit.

It appears that phone call set off fears that the assault on the night club was affiliated with the terror group, though officials said they are still not clear whether it was directed or inspired by ISIS. So far, ISIS has not claimed responsibility but on social media accounts associated with it, members have celebrated the shooting. It took ISIS one day to claim attack in San Bernardino.

MG23
12th Jun 2016, 20:36
There was an armed police officer there when it started so you are basically full of it like all good guy with gun delusional people.If the government hadn't prohibited Floridians from protecting themselves in bars, there'd likely have been at least thirty guns ready to shoot back.

What do you think the police used to stop him in the end? Harsh language?

Why do you think he didn't shoot up a gun store? Or a Gay Pride rally, out in the open where many would be carrying?

These people were killed by 'gun control'.

alwayzinit
12th Jun 2016, 20:46
DC
My point was, as I am sure you are bright enough to get it, is more legislation is the easy placebo but NOT an answer in any way at all.
As has been pointed out, this guy was on the FBI list, yet they did nothing.
You tell me why.

Curious Pax
12th Jun 2016, 20:53
A dark nightclub at a function nearing its end (I'm guessing alcohol may have been taken), and 30 folks produce their concealed arms to try and take out a shooter? Even if they were all trained law enforcement the risk of collateral would have been massive. 30 Joe Publics and you'd have had at least 50 dead regardless!

I realise that the pro and anti gun agenda will be to the fore at a time like this, but use a bit of common sense!!

lomapaseo
12th Jun 2016, 21:16
As has been pointed out, this guy was on the FBI list, yet they did nothing.
You tell me why.

Lots of folks are on lots of lists, me included from my visits with the FBI. But, I have learned that unless you are part of an active investigation they don't have a 1 on 1 manpower to tracks everybody on their lists.

Like a good sleuth they depend on computer name/alias/operandi computer searches to add up enough pieces to form a string that they can devote limited manpower to.

Not unlike flight safety investigations in aviation.

sitigeltfel
12th Jun 2016, 21:19
Wrong. U.S. citizen born in New York, living in Florida. Parents from Afghanistan.

Initial reports suggested otherwise.

SASless
12th Jun 2016, 21:29
CP.....how about just One....maybe Two?

Who might have been a Designated Driver and cold dead sober or even a Tee-totaller?

How many videos do you want showing exactly that...Good Guys with Guns stopping Bad Guys with Guns?

Youtube is your friend if you care to search there for those videos.

It does happen you know....provided all of the links of that particular Chain are connected.

But this is not about Gun Control....it is about Islamic Radical Terrorism and how that has morphed from the Hijacking of Airliners to Lone Wolf attacks by radicalized citizens.

Let's focus on the genuine cause of these attacks.....and discuss the influence Radical Islam plays in Mass Murder.

seen_the_box
12th Jun 2016, 21:46
President Trump just came a step closer to reality. He's already come out and talked about being 'tougher'. It's not hard to see where things are heading if he's elected. I'd be extremely nervous if I was a Muslim living in America right now.

Cows getting bigger
12th Jun 2016, 21:49
Whilst we're at it, can we also discuss why (American) teenagers have a penchant for meandering into school and wasting a few of the compatriots?

Perhaps part of the problem is that the tools of the trade are so easily available? 112 shooting deaths at US schools since 2010.

SASless
12th Jun 2016, 21:59
Box,

Why is that?

West Coast
12th Jun 2016, 22:04
As has been pointed out, this guy was on the FBI list, yet they did nothing.
You tell me why.

I dunno, but I suspect that will be a central question in the following weeks. That said, there may be a valid answer and I suspect it will revolve around manpower and having to allocate that manpower on the basis of the perceived threat.

mickjoebill
12th Jun 2016, 22:10
If the government hadn't prohibited Floridians from protecting themselves in bars, there'd likely have been at least thirty guns ready to shoot back.

What do you think the police used to stop him in the end? Harsh language?

Why do you think he didn't shoot up a gun store? Or a Gay Pride rally, out in the open where many would be carrying?

These people were killed by 'gun control'.

Nonsense.

There is video recording of part of the gun battle. 20 shots fired in 10 seconds. Even if guns were allowed in the club a massacre would have occurred.

An experienced trained police officer guarding the club couldn't take him out.
He was joined by other officers within a few minutes but the guy already had cover.

A policeman was hit by friendly fire, saved by his helmet,

Patrons of the club said they thought the noise was a dance track.

So bearing all of the above in mind, put yourself in the crowded club. It's 2am almost closing time you've been up for 18 hours.
You and others in the club carry.
The club is noisey and dimly lit.
You hear gunshots. To your right you see a man with a handgun shooting. Then another gunshot to your left.
Quickly, who is good guy and who is the bad guy? They may both be bad guys!
Pandemonium ensues.
Come on draw your gun and shoot! People are falling around you, do something. Once your gun is drawn you'll ge a target for anyone else who is carrying. You won't know for sure if they are sober.

Yes it's probable that he would have been taken down, resulting with a lower casualty toll.

But like the Bataclan nightclub shooting he stopped shooting and took hostages, that is not a strategy the terrorist would do if he suspected his hostages were armed.

If open carry were allowed he would adapt to both exploit and circumvent it.


Mickjoebill

obgraham
12th Jun 2016, 22:23
As always here, the debate soon degenerates into the gun control issue.

Ignoring the elephant in the room (and a very powerful elephant it was, in Orlando) which is the appeal of Radicalism in Islam.

bcgallacher
12th Jun 2016, 22:40
There is little that can be done to prevent this kind of demented lunacy - all societies have nutters in their midst.Individuals with evil intent are hard to predict,organisations planning such crimes are easier to detect.The big difference between the USA and the rest of the developed world is the easy access to the means to commit this type of atrocity.

galaxy flyer
12th Jun 2016, 22:53
How did the laws in France, Norway and Belgium stop those mass killings?

This is what a Orlando area Muslim "cleric" was recently preaching, Death to Gays.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/florida-muslim-speaker-says-killing-gays-is-act-of-compassion

GF

Tankertrashnav
12th Jun 2016, 23:12
For once I agree with Galaxy Flyer. It's a well known maxim in anti terrorist operations that the good guys have to get lucky all of the time, the bad guys only need to get lucky once.

This was a lesson hard learned in Northern Ireland (and also on the UK mainland) over 30 years or so. It's a depressing thought that you can react in whatever way you choose to events like these, but realistically they are going to happen again and again.

PLovett
12th Jun 2016, 23:14
The big difference between the USA and the rest of the developed world is the easy access to the means to commit this type of atrocity.

No. The big difference is that in the US there is a prevalent mentality to take the law into their own hands. The "I am the bringer of vengeance" mentality seems to be ever present in these situations.

mickjoebill
12th Jun 2016, 23:16
As always here, the debate soon degenerates into the gun control issue.

Ignoring the elephant in the room (and a very powerful elephant it was, in Orlando) which is the appeal of Radicalism in Islam.

I beg to differ. If you were one of those in the nightclub, the elephant wasn't the unhinged gay hating zealot, it was the AR15 and gloch he used to make his point.

Freedom of speech usurped by freedom to kill.

Mickjoebill

galaxy flyer
12th Jun 2016, 23:24
mickjoebill

Any suggestions on separating jihadists from the 300 million firearms in the US or should we just outlaw Muslims from owning them? Oh, did the AR-16 and Glock just pull the trigger themselves? Was Omar a helpless victim of those weapons malevolent ways?

GF

Wonderworld
12th Jun 2016, 23:31
And did you see what the cnut governor of Texas tweeted shortly after and then deleted as he obviously didn't have the balls to leave up. The Christian Right are just as bad as Isis.

Cazalet33
12th Jun 2016, 23:34
worked as a security guard took automatic weapons and shot into the crowd at a gay bar. He was known to be mentally unstable

Can anyone else see an anomaly there?

Mentally unstable, but employed as a "security" guard?

Mentally unstable, but given access to automatic weapons?

What could possibly go wrong?

Cazalet33
12th Jun 2016, 23:40
And did you see what the cnut governor of Texas tweeted

Ya mean a Texas governor is barking mad? Say it ain't so!

mickjoebill
12th Jun 2016, 23:49
http://youtu.be/IULSD8VwXEs
In the interest of balance,
here is an interesting debunk of a antigun video.



Mickjoebill

Seldomfitforpurpose
12th Jun 2016, 23:53
You have to love the logic that allows a known mentally unstable individual who is also on a terrorist watch list the right to own guns.

Probably time the 2nd had a bit of tweeking perhaps.

Flying Binghi
13th Jun 2016, 00:07
Dunno why them islamic nut jobs dont just use petrol. 20 Litres of petrol smugled into a night club as a false fat belly and then set alight will kill far more, and importantly fer them nut groups, cause far higher number of and more horrific injures then any gun can do.





.

mickjoebill
13th Jun 2016, 00:09
mickjoebill

Any suggestions on separating jihadists from the 300 million firearms in the US or should we just outlaw Muslims from owning them? Oh, did the AR-16 and Glock just pull the trigger themselves? Was Omar a helpless victim of those weapons malevolent ways?

GF
No suggestions, that horse has bolted, but we can prevent the same door being opened in other countries.

My point was you can't easily alter the views of zealots and unhinged

But one can make it harder for them to kill innocent people with assault rifles.

This guy had been investigated by FBI but legally purchased a gun recently.

Mickjoebill

Granite City Express
13th Jun 2016, 01:03
An interesting article from NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/07/nyregion/in-scotland-unlike-america-mass-shooting-led-to-stricter-gun-laws.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0)

This was the 173rd mass shooting in the USA of 2016. Today is the 163rd day of 2016. Just consider that for a moment.

Maybe that opportunistic muppet Trump could call for a temporary ban on AR-15's, just "until we find out what the hell is going on"?

Was it not the Republican Party that blocked a law allowing people on FBI suspect terrorist lists to be barred from buying firearms? (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/senate-gop-votes-terrorist-gun-bill-article-1.2454448)

capt.cynical
13th Jun 2016, 01:33
GOD help USA if Trump is elected. :E:yuk:

obgraham
13th Jun 2016, 02:08
I beg to differ. If you were one of those in the nightclub, the elephant wasn't the unhinged gay hating zealot, it was the AR15 and gloch he used to make his point.

Freedom of speech usurped by freedom to kill.

Mickjoebill
So in your way of thinking,the perp might just as well have been a Presbyterian or a Wiccan.

How come they just seldom seem to be?

Una Due Tfc
13th Jun 2016, 02:16
Sometimes I just despair for our species. This event and the murder of that young singer in Florida a couple of days before by a gunman are just the latest events that have caused me to feel this way.

The idea of trying to kill some random person, let alone multiple random people I've never met, who have done no harm to me or mine is just so anathema I cannot get my head around it.

SASless
13th Jun 2016, 02:21
I suppose MJB has a point.

In the past when someone was blasting away in my direction I certainly did not take time to consider exactly who it was and what provoked him to do so...but did have my complete attention focused towards what he (at times...they) were using to do so with a view towards doing what I could to minimize the risk to myself and others with me.

I really doubt the victims were thinking much beyond trying to think of ways to escape being wounded or killed and could care less about whether it was guns, knives, chainsaws, or hand grenades while it was happening.

The only Elephant in the Room that night was the absence of Leadership in the White House over the past Seven plus Years that focused upon Radical Left Winged Ideology rather than attacking in any serious way Radical Islamic Terrorism around the World.

Land sakes....the Man cannot utter the words Radical Islamic anything much less take a dedicated stand against it.

West Coast
13th Jun 2016, 02:22
Funny how terrorists in France and elsewhere in Europe have no issue finding weapons to commit their deeds. That's not a facet of those discussions, rather intent, general handwringing, questions on immigration, etc. Somehow when terrorism happens in the US it's simply a gun issue. The terrorists have more angles than some of you.

Mentally unstable, but given access to automatic weapons?

Do you have any idea why that is without referring to talking points?

Hint, the answer reaches a few decades decades at a minimum.

Una Due Tfc
13th Jun 2016, 02:30
Automatic weapons in Europe are all illegal....and quite easy to purchase. When the wall came down all the Russian soldiers garrisoning Eastern Europe fecked off home, leaving all their AKs and tastier stuff behind. Enterprising entrepreneurs moved in and well......

mickjoebill
13th Jun 2016, 02:32
AR 15 fires over 10 rounds per second. 50, 100 and 150 round Drum mags available.
High velocity bullet that could penetrate a victim and hit another.
http://youtu.be/BSizVpfqFtw

Scroll forward to when he fits the 50 drum mag.
Imagine this effect in a small 1500 square meter club packed with 360 people.

Even if patrons at the Pulse did carry, and respond, scores would have been killed.

Mickjoebill

West Coast
13th Jun 2016, 02:37
UDT

What little news coverage of that angle largely agrees with that.

Either way, the focus on Paris was about the act, the motives, the terror aspect...

Orlando is simply about guns to some, look back at the narrow minded posts from some even this early on in the thread. No mention of intent, simply verbal diarrhea about the constitution and the need to amend it from one, similar single minded focus from others.

Flypuppy
13th Jun 2016, 02:40
You don't need to look far to find Christian Fundamentalist terrorist organisations. How many deaths are the KKK responsible for? How many have died in attacks on abortion clinics?

West Coast
13th Jun 2016, 02:46
How many deaths are the KKK responsible for?

I don't know, how many? Can you provide an accurate number?

mickjoebill
13th Jun 2016, 02:46
Funny how terrorists in France and elsewhere in Europe have no issue finding weapons to commit their deeds. That's not a facet of those discussions, rather intent, general handwringing, questions on immigration, etc. Somehow when terrorism happens in the US it's simply a gun issue. The terrorists have more angles than some of you.


In mainland Europe it is a given due to porous boarders that long guns are available.

In the uk, after two decades of hanging out with those on both sides of the law, the only weapon I saw on the streets was a small revolver strapped to the leg of a holidaying US cop! He showed it to me whilst he enjoyed a pre theatre drink in a pub in Soho.


Mickjoebill

Una Due Tfc
13th Jun 2016, 03:00
In mainland Europe it is a given due to porous boarders that long guns are available.

In the uk, after two decades of hanging out with those on both sides of the law, the only weapon I saw on the streets was a small revolver strapped to the leg of a holidaying US cop! He showed it to me whilst he enjoyed a pre theatre drink in a pub in Soho.


Mickjoebill

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and thanks to Gaddafi there are plenty of guns up there, many of which have found their way down here to the Republic since.

West Coast
13th Jun 2016, 03:03
the only weapon I saw on the streets was a small revolver strapped to the leg of a holidaying US cop!

And this means what? I've never seen a weapon in public in the US other than what police carry, obviously they're here however. Your niave to think their not in the UK as well.

SASless
13th Jun 2016, 03:37
MJB,

What was a US Cop on Holiday in the UK doing with a Firearm in his possession?

I would think that would be a very serious Crime....not to mention an indictment of the UK Security System that he would be able to smuggle the thing into the UK.

It would also challenge the effectiveness of our own TSA unless he traveled by Steam Liner or some form of surface transport out of the USA.

Or are you just pulling our Legs a bit!

galaxy flyer
13th Jun 2016, 03:42
MJB,

I'm pretty certain the AR being used was semi-auto, not full auto which is illegal here without ATF knowledge and licensing.

GF

EEngr
13th Jun 2016, 04:39
The worst mass shooting in US history.
That would be the Wounded Knee Massacre in 1890.

PukinDog
13th Jun 2016, 04:46
Flypuppy
You don't need to look far to find Christian Fundamentalist terrorist organisations. How many deaths are the KKK responsible for? How many have died in attacks on abortion clinics?

Actually, "Christian fundamentalist" would be defined as someone who adheres to the fundamentals of the teachings of Jesus, who was a pacifist and the polar opposite of the teachings of the warlord that was/is the central figure of Islam.

Surely, you possess enough reading comprehension to read, compare, and contrast these two very different fundamental teachings as to how followers should conduct themselves.

Islam teaches and preaches domination, and was designed to raise and maintain armies of young men in order to control societies, individuals, and governments through violent means if necessary. It's also a breeding program. Those are it's fundamentals, inherent to it's teachings, not some skewed interpretation.

Strict adherence to the fundamental teachings of Jesus produces Quakers and Mennonites. Ultra-pacifists. Jesus never preached swiping off heads of the enemy, taking over governments, or installing political or legal systems based on what he taught. If you think he did, please cite chapter and verse.

And since you brought up the KKK it should be noted that the origins and underpinning of the abolitionist movement in the U.S. even before the Revolutionary war through the Civil was mainly the work of Christian fundamentalists like the aforementioned Quakers and Mennonites. The KKK was founded as a post-civil war terrorist group linked to the southern Democrat party, not Christian fundamentalism. Many of the U.S.'s first local gun laws and restrictions were designed by local Democrat politicians to deny the right of newly-freed black Americans the right to possess guns for self-defence against the terror.

tdracer
13th Jun 2016, 05:21
Glenn Reynolds: An untraditional war (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting-omar-mateen-islam-terrorism-column/85794088/)



We also need to be clear about what it is we’re fighting. We’re not fighting Islam as such. Many good Muslims are horrified by this violence. But we are fighting the jihadist strain of Islam, and unfortunately quite a few Muslims view that strain as legitimate.

Sadly our President can't see the truth in this statement.

chuks
13th Jun 2016, 05:30
Pukin' Dog, here's a well-known statement attributed to Jesus Christ: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34 KJV

What Jesus said there is subject to various interpretations, of course, but no, I don't "possess enough reading comprehension to read, compare, and contrast these two very different fundamental teachings as to how followers should conduct themselves," and then see Christianity as completely distinct from Islam in being nonviolent.

PukinDog
13th Jun 2016, 06:15
chucks
Pukin' Dog, here's a well-known statement attributed to Jesus Christ: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34 KJV

What Jesus said there is subject to various interpretations, of course, but no, I don't "possess enough reading comprehension to read, compare, and contrast these two very different fundamental teachings as to how followers should conduct themselves," and then see Christianity as completely distinct from Islam in being nonviolent.

Well chucks, there is plenty of chapter-and-verse context that surrounds the one you cherry-picked. It's only open to interpretation for those ignoring the context, in which the sword is a divider, splitting of families based on beliefs in his teachings being held by some and not by others, and those that do will endure persecution.

So please direct me to the verses where Jesus teaches violence, to kill one's enemies and/or "non-believers", usurp governments through violence and dominate others through force in order to spread them. Christian fundamentalism at it's most fundamental is pacifist. The Koran re-justifies violence for it's adherents in an Old Testament sort of way, for dominance. It doesn't need "mis-interpreting" to be a call to arms for those seeking power on a small or large scale, a political ideology, a legal system, and a breeding program. Mhmnd was a warlord, Jesus was not. Those are historical facts and the fundamentals of what they taught reflect those very 2 different outcomes.

Someone else coined the term "Christian fundamentalist terrorist organisations", and tried to associate these supposed organisations with the KKK or abortion clinic bombers. Which organisations are those again that strictly adhere to the teachings of Jesus? I must've missed where he told followers that god wants them to go out and kill people.

I don't consider myself a Christian, fundamental or otherwise. But I can read, and lived in a fundamentalist Middle Eastern country long enough to know what I saw and see (and where if you aren't a Christian or Muslim you have to lie and say you are or they won't let you live in the country) to know the difference in how those fundamentalist teachings manifest themselves and who's at war with everyone else around the world whether it be Europe, the Americas, Africa, the Subcontinent, or Asia.

chuks
13th Jun 2016, 07:21
Pukin' Dog, what is your problem? I guess you forgot that "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."

This is what you asked for, "If you think [that Jesus did preach swiping off heads of the enemy], please cite chapter and verse," and that is exactly what I did, citing literally "chapter and verse," Matthew 10:34 KJV. That's not "cherry-picking" but directing you to just what you demanded someone cite: a somewhat threatening message from the Apostle of Peace.

Yes, you may interpret that "sword" in different ways, but it's still a sword, not a wall, a partition, a separation, an agreement to differ ... some other choice of metaphor a bit less threatening of violence than a sword: a weapon, one perfect for "swiping off heads .... "

It's nice that your vision of Christianity, and Christian fundamentalism is such a sunny one, but the reality doesn't always fit that vision. I spent a while in Appalachia among fundamentalist Christians, when I found that to be a bit worrisome, since they seemed to take me for someone from "Noo Yawk" and a possible Jew trying to pass, when I was not minded to set their narrow minds at ease. There was a definite air of intolerance and violence about the place that did seem to come to some extent from fundamentalist Christian beliefs. To people of that mindset, that sword was exactly that, a weapon, not a metaphor for mere division.

When you see a pickup sporting a bumper sticker reading "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!" or "God, guns and guts made America great!" should you assume you are seeing some Christian at its wheel who is open to dialogue among holders of various beliefs? Good luck with trying to show people of that mindset that there are other ways to salvation than theirs, let alone that non-Christians may also be moral people. No, no, no. That good old boy just might want to "tear you a new one and then stomp it dry," praise Jesus!

I am sure that you know that many such believers hold to that old vision of the Jews as having killed Christ, making the Jews much more pariahs than fellow "people of the Book" as tolerant Islam sees them. Bigots are where you find them, so that Christianity is no more exclusively tolerant than any other religion.

sitigeltfel
13th Jun 2016, 07:42
I wonder if the target groups for these Islamic monsters will ever stop shrieking at the mouse under the chair they are standing on, turn round, and notice the elephant in the room?

charliegolf
13th Jun 2016, 09:00
Dunno why them islamic nut jobs dont just use petrol. 20 Litres of petrol smugled into a night club as a false fat belly and then set alight will kill far more, and importantly fer them nut groups, cause far higher number of and more horrific injures then any gun can do.


You should do a little leaflet in Arabic, then in countries where it's a tiny bit harder to get guns, mass murderers will have lots of other ideas in their little jihadi-bag. Sheesh!

CG

PukinDog
13th Jun 2016, 09:02
What are you babbling on about chucks? All you've done is go on about those you label "fundamentalist", or claim to be, with complete disregard as to whether what they believe is fundamental to the teachings of the 2 people at the very core of the respective religions.

If you want to shove your head into the sand and ignore the stark differences in how each of those central figures addresses/justifies/doesn't justify violence against others because you insist that "everything is open to interpretation" and "they're all the same", pretending that the subject isn't the fundamental tenets of each but rather how supposed followers twist things to their own ends, go right ahead. You really aren't spotlighting anything new. People have killed using pitchforks, it doesn't mean they weren't designed for pitching hay.

Jesus the pacifist = Mdhmd the warlord. Interchangeable teachings and fundamentals, is that it? Or have you merely submitted to the Big Lie about Islam being the "religion of Peace" because the glossy version is easier to explain than the guts of it? It seems you're trying to convince me that Red is the same as Blue because they're both colors. Call Red "blue" all you like, it doesn't change Red's color.

I'm still waiting for this great list of "Christian fundamentalist terrorist organisations" that I've been told I don't have to look very far for. Besides those scary Quakers and Mennonites and other assorted consciencious objectors, I mean. Funny, they seem to just mind their own business, not go to war with everyone in the world who doesn't see things their way.

alwayzinit
13th Jun 2016, 09:32
In a previous life, uniform, when the subject of terrorism and extremist terrorism in particular the rule was that "ANY extremist is the enemy to normality", as by definition an extremist's mind is closed to anyone else's point of view or stance.
Most of us, in the previous uniform, held the view that we were defending Freedom, of speech, of life style, of thought, of religion. The irony is that we were defending the right of anyone to hold extreme views.
The break with that defense of an individual's freedom comes when it becomes evident that rather than just holding extreme views an individual or group are prepared to act against others to enforce their views.
This fairly simple mantra worked very well prior to the emergence of what we know now as "Political Correctness".
PC has made the risk of offending others a more serious "crime" than the violent crime we see carried out by those with extremist views.

As other have stated earlier in this discussion, even with the most restrictive firearms legislation in the Western sphere the acquisition of Military weapons, by groups intent on upsetting the status quo and imposition of their views, has been shown by history to be simple.

There are many within political circles on both sides of the "Pond" who have seized upon the actions of those who are extremist and or mentally unstable to further their own agendas.

Without doubt a debate about how to tackle mass murder has to take place. However, that debate must be held without the shackles of PC or the other mindsets that restrict totally objective discussion.

To think that by writing more laws that make it more difficult for the law abiding and mentally stable to shoot guns is the solution is naive and disingenuous.

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Jun 2016, 09:33
The gun debate was finished with the atrocity at Sandy Hook. Once Americans decided that killing kids was acceptable there was simply no point discussing it any further.

A person with mental health issues and on an FBI watch list is still allowed to by guns. Not sure it gets any more ****** up than that.

chuks
13th Jun 2016, 09:53
Pukin' Dog, you can't cherry-pick just one meaning for "fundamentalism" and insist that it only may refer to the fundamental message of Christ. Many preach hate and find that fundamental to the message of Christ, often with particular focus on Christ's role as a victim of the Jews, thus making them legitimate targets for hatred and violence. Yes, it's a distortion of Christ's true message, but it's also "fundamentalism."

Here are a few Christian fundamentalists, just off the top of my head:

The Klan:

Check out the emblem: a red drop of blood in a rhomboid centered in a white cross, itself centered on a red disc: "The symbolism behind the insignia, according to various KKK groups, is that the blood drop in the center of the cross represents the blood shed by Jesus Christ at the Crucifixion, for the white Aryan race, whom they see as God's master race or chosen people." (wikipedia)

Numerous fundamentalist Christian preachers have addressed Klan rallies, preaching in support of violence and acts of terror meant to enforce Klan doctrines.


Attackers of abortion clinics:

They often see themselves as good Christians, out to stop those who "murder babies" by killing those who perform legal abortions.


The Lebanese Phalanges:

Nominally Christian, also classically fascist, directly inspired by the example of Nazi Germany, falangists were the perpetrators of the Sabra and Shatila Massacre.


Deutsche Christen:

"German Christians" were Protestants who chose to align Christian doctrine with Hitlerism, to find no fundamental conflict. Key elements of belief were:

Adolf Hitler is the completion of the Reformation.

Baptized Jews are to be dismissed from the Church, thus exposing them to Nazi persecution.

The Old Testament is to be excluded from Sacred Scriptures.


The Spanish Falange under Franco:

Ever visited the Valley of the Fallen, P. D.? One humongous basilica, internal volume greater than Saint Peter's in Rome, carved out of the living rock by P.O.W.s and political prisoners for the most part, with right behind the altar the motto, loosely translated from what I can remember, "Fallen for God and the Fatherland." Before the altar two graves, those of José Antonio Primo de Rivera and Generalissimo Francisco Franco. Now, Franco was the guy who supposedly said when he was dying that he did not need to forgive any of his enemies, because he had killed them all!

They are still exhuming corpses all over Spain, often those killed by good Catholics in the name of Christ. "Religion of peace," you say?


We could go back a bit further in history if you like. There are plenty of examples of Christians who enjoyed killing in the name of Christ, probably just as many as there are Muslims who thought that Mohammed wanted them to kill.

AreOut
13th Jun 2016, 10:04
That would be the Wounded Knee Massacre in 1890.
it was literally a battle between hundreds of armed people, every battle is "mass shooting" by default

bcgallacher
13th Jun 2016, 10:05
West Coast - the number of guns in UK society is minisculecompared to the US as you well know - the result of this is we have about 50 deaths from gunshot per year as opposed to about 32000 in the US. Your idiotic gun laws allow a person banned from flying as a terrorist suspect to legally purchase a semi- automatic rifle.

alwayzinit
13th Jun 2016, 10:22
bcg.
While I agree with what you say to a certain extent, by definition a criminal will ignore whatever laws are put on the statute book as will those with mental issues.
As I wrote before a COMPLETELY objective discussion needs to take place, free from political and personal agendas.
Just recently we saw the seizure of 20 or so AK type weapons entering the UK, caught because those importing them were stupid. How many more similar shipments slipped by HM Border Force and the Police?
The cause as well as the means of these shootings has to be tackled or other wise, as someone has already mentioned, there are other equally lethal options to guns that are freely available, without licence.
The fact that there are still 50 shot and killed in the UK each year shows that where there is a will, there is a way.
Incidentally the rate of firearms deaths has progressively increased in the UK since the '97 hand gun ban was put on the "Book". How is that explained? It is also interesting that there are still just under 5 killed everyday, on the road.

vapilot2004
13th Jun 2016, 10:35
There was an armed police officer there when it started so you are basically full of it like all good guy with gun delusional people.

Agreed. However, if the shooter didn't have access to a semi-automatic killing machine, the good guy might have had a fighting chance to stop him.

If the government hadn't prohibited Floridians from protecting themselves in bars, there'd likely have been at least thirty guns ready to shoot back.

Naturally, since everyone knows the LGBT crowd loves their guns.

The big difference is that in the US there is a prevalent mentality to take the law into their own hands. The "I am the bringer of vengeance" mentality seems to be ever present in these situations.

Vengeance and other insanities. Apparently we are a bunch of homicidal maniacs compared to much of the civilised world. That is why 'we' cannot be trusted with firearms and should at least be limiting access to assault-style weapons.

FBI comments:
The FBI had nothing on the guy. They are bound by the laws of the land. Currently, we can put the son-of-a-bitch on a no-fly list and keep him off an airliner, but he can go and buy as many AR-15's (and ammo) as his jihad-loving heart desires and would not have broken a single Federal law. That's where the problem lies as it relates to gun violence in the states.

vapilot2004
13th Jun 2016, 10:42
As always here, the debate soon degenerates into the gun control issue.

It is the issue in America and it has been ignored too long and every time the government even talks about trying to pass a few sensible laws, the NRA and the GOP get their proverbial and collective panties in a gunpowder-totin' wad and it all gets shut down.

Ignoring the elephant in the room (and a very powerful elephant it was, in Orlando) which is the appeal of Radicalism in Islam.

Agreed. Should we talk about who helped load that (elephant) gun?

alwayzinit
13th Jun 2016, 11:41
vapilot2004, whilst I agree that revisiting the actions of PMs and Presidents is an interesting academic subject for debate, it does not help provide a solution to the situation in which we now all ourselves.

I suppose prosecuting those who lied to advance their own agenda may see "justice" done, though I cannot see it stopping what is a radical religious political movement, the time for an open debate with the Jihadiis is long past.

Dan_Brown
13th Jun 2016, 11:42
Why is it that these politicians cannot bring themselves to state the obvious and admit this is an attack by an ISLAMIC gunman?????

Obama can't utter the word. I wonder why???

Or is it more of "you aren't no Muslim bruv"

G0ULI
13th Jun 2016, 11:57
All that an attack like this, and the others around the world, achieves is an assurance that all Muslims everywhere will be viewed with fear and mistrust.

No matter how law abiding and integrated in the community they seem, there will always be that doubt.

Perhaps that is the true aim of these actions, to ensure that Muslims remain seperate from other groups and are not allowed to integrate with degenerate Western ideals and culture. Each new atrocity just serves to drive that divisive wedge deeper into community relations.

No answers, just saddness for the innocent victims of this downward spiral of violence.

david1300
13th Jun 2016, 12:17
Pukin' Dog, what is your problem? I guess you forgot that "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."

This is what you asked for, "If you think [that Jesus did preach swiping off heads of the enemy], please cite chapter and verse," and that is exactly what I did, citing literally "chapter and verse," Matthew 10:34 KJV. That's not "cherry-picking" but directing you to just what you demanded someone cite: a somewhat threatening message from the Apostle of Peace.

Yes, you may interpret that "sword" in different ways, but it's still a sword, not a wall, a partition, a separation, an agreement to differ ... some other choice of metaphor a bit less threatening of violence than a sword: a weapon, one perfect for "swiping off heads .... "

It's nice that your vision of Christianity, and Christian fundamentalism is such a sunny one, but the reality doesn't always fit that vision. ...

Let's go to the "source" if you like. True followers of Jesus should demonstrate this as their fundamental starting point:

Matthew 22:36-40New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

There it is - the true teaching of Jesus - love your neighbour as yourself.

vapilot2004
13th Jun 2016, 12:45
vapilot2004, whilst I agree that revisiting the actions of PMs and Presidents is an interesting academic subject for debate, it does not help provide a solution to the situation in which we now all ourselves.


While I am certainly no fan of Snowden, doesn't the truth make for the best disinfectant in the end? Too messy, so perhaps not, I think we might agree.

I suppose prosecuting those who lied to advance their own agenda may see "justice" done, though I cannot see it stopping what is a radical religious political movement, the time for an open debate with the Jihadiis is long past.

That sad reality shouldn't stop people of good conscience from reaching across the divide towards the reasonable on the 'other' side. Sunny skies aside, I do get your point, Alwayzinit

alwayzinit
13th Jun 2016, 12:55
vapilot2004

Agree with you 100%. I have very good friends who are followers of Islam, they are all good people who are appalled by this and other attacks, equally upset to be fair by the loss of life in the ME and elsewhere.

As I have said before in this tread, ANY extremist is the enemy of normality. Atrocities like Orlando and Paris make rational debate difficult for us, as does the bombing of hospitals and "collateral damage".

Maybe it is time for those who send young men and women to "war" join them like the rulers of old. At least then they are showing their own conviction in their instructions and orders.

Sadly you and I know that that will NEVER happen.

vapilot2004
13th Jun 2016, 13:02
All agreed AZ. :ok:

The hope is on the next several generations figuring the way forward out of the (not always) good-intentioned deeds of our past.

bcgallacher
13th Jun 2016, 13:04
Frankly I think the fact that the mass murderer was a Muslim is largely irrelevant Timothy McVeigh was not a Muslim and he killed more than 3 times the number that this latest maniac did.The school shooters etc do not seem to be inspired by Islam.There are maniacs with a cause in all societies - the access to the means to fulfill their fantasies seems to me the main reason that they seem to be a more regular occurrence in the USA.

bcgallacher
13th Jun 2016, 13:08
Alwayzinit - Firearm deaths in the UK peaked in 2000 or so and have declined since.The UK has an exceptionally low rate of gunshot deaths compared to other developed countries - Japan has an even lower rate,perhaps due to even more draconian gun control laws. If we had the same rate as the USA we would have 6000+ deaths from gunshot per year. Mass killings are a rarity in our society - be grateful. The USA has got itself into the position that people are acquiring guns to protect themselves from fellow citizens who have acquired them for the same reason. With regard to terrorist killings in the USA - in the last ten years more people have been shot dead by toddlers playing with loaded firearms than have been killed by terrorists, Muslim or otherwise.

SASless
13th Jun 2016, 13:32
At the risk of being banned for attacking someone.....this is not about Religion.

Lunatic's espousing and carrying out atrocities in the name of their particular warped beliefs perhaps....but not Religion in any accepted form.

In order to describe those radical beliefs there has to be some language used to fairly describe from where the Zealots are drawing their inspiration.

In this case in Orlando.....we know where that is....now.

The one thing the FBI and other Investigative Agencies around the World are very good at...is putting the pieces of the puzzle together AFTER the fact. Coordination and facilitating PREVENTION is not one of their strong suits....none of them.

Consider the information in this linked article and ask as others have about how the FBI could be aware of the Shooter but not be able to do anything to prevent the attack in Orlando.

This latest Killer is just one of many that we are going to have to deal with but in order to protect Society we are going to first have to accept the concept of Political Correctness has to eliminated so we can call Evil what it is when it rears its ugly head.

Just as Obama cannot utter the words...."Radical Islamic Terrorism"....he cannot be trusted to lead the effort to effectively combat it.

We have a Cancer within our Society that must be dealt with....those who pervert any Religion, Belief, or Cause by calling for Violence of any kind. Until we as a Society all agree that to be totally unacceptable, we shall continue to suffer these attacks.

We do not have to focus upon the method used....as that hopeless.

What we must focus upon are the People who seek to carry out the attacks and eliminate them and the attacks will end far more effectively than if we continue to pursue trying to keep them from obtaining the means to carry out attacks.

Authorities reveal NEW bombshell about Orlando shooter's terror ties... - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com (http://www.allenbwest.com/michellejesse/authorities-reveal-new-bombshell-about-orlando-shooters-terror-ties)

oicur12.again
13th Jun 2016, 14:58
"Why is it that these politicians cannot bring themselves to state the obvious and admit this is an attack by an ISLAMIC gunman?????"

Ok, can we then admit that the other 99% of mass shootings in the US are attacks by Christian gunmen?

Can we call the slaughter of over 1 million people in the ME as a direct result of manipulation of the truth by Bush a Christian terrorist attack?

Dan_Brown
13th Jun 2016, 15:10
Their is one thing that can be done to try and eliminate this scourge among us. That is profiling. There is one common denominator in these recent attacks. Use it and stop wasting precious resources and time, pandering to these terrorists and the PC cheerleaders!!

SASless
13th Jun 2016, 15:22
OIC,

99% Christian....really?

Do show us where you got your Stats from please?

"The Slaughter of over One Million People in the ME....." again please show us where you got your numbers from?

Simplythebeast
13th Jun 2016, 15:22
Because the FBI and other International sedulity Agencies dont use profiling?

mickjoebill
13th Jun 2016, 15:25
MJB,

What was a US Cop on Holiday in the UK doing with a Firearm in his possession?

I would think that would be a very serious Crime....not to mention an indictment of the UK Security System that he would be able to smuggle the thing into the UK.

It would also challenge the effectiveness of our own TSA unless he traveled by Steam Liner or some form of surface transport out of the USA.

Or are you just pulling our Legs a bit!

It was in the ninties and yes it was for real. I had a documentary camera with me at the time and he was very interested in how my crew protected ourselves when working on the street.

In the USA it is common for tv crews to employ a local cop, who arrives in uniform and with his gun. Very handy to stop traffic and keep the riff raff away.
Security at the Pulse was also an off duty cop. The gunfight is said to have started outside but the shooter managed to get inside.


Mjb

mickjoebill
13th Jun 2016, 15:34
MJB,

I'm pretty certain the AR being used was semi-auto, not full auto which is illegal here without ATF knowledge and licensing.

GF
Yes you are probably right. A 15 second snapchat video has emerged from inside the club where it sounds like semi auto.
The club was packed:(

Mjb

oicur12.again
13th Jun 2016, 15:34
2015, almost 210 mass shootings in the US, debated as to 2-3 of these committed by Muslims. That looks like about 1%. Heck, lets go crazy and call it 5%.

The point being, Muslims are not the threat in the US. Terrorism is a minor distraction from regular local made in America Americans killing each other in massive numbers, when compared to more developed nations.

500000 conservative estimate killed in Iraq since the Christian crusades started under Bush. Throw in Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Libya and the numbers, by many estimates, exceed 1 million.

The ruling elite know that the occasional disenfranchised home grown nutter who takes revenge for the slaughter in his region of heritage is a small price to pay for propping up the petro dollar.

SASless
13th Jun 2016, 15:40
Muslims are not the threat in the US.

Some Muslims sure are....as in Orlando for instance.

One of many sources of Statistics.....take from it what you will.

http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html

As to the number of "Mass" shootings....which uses an arbitrary definition of what constitutes "Mass"....the following article about Chicago (America's Poster Child for Murder) explains the causes and factors affecting that notoriety.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-homicides-first-quarter-met-20160330-story.html

Local Variation
13th Jun 2016, 15:58
American Pastor, Steven Anderson seems to have some pretty liberal views on the shootings. Here is what he had to say.

"The good news is that there’s 50 less pedophiles in this world, because, you know, these homosexuals are a bunch of disgusting perverts and pedophiles. That’s who was a victim here, are a bunch of, just, disgusting homosexuals at a gay bar, okay?

But the bad news is that this is now gonna be used, I’m sure, to push for gun control, where, you know, law-abiding normal Americans are not gonna be allowed to have guns for self-defense. And then I’m sure it’s also gonna be used to push an agenda against so-called “hate speech.” So Bible-believing Christian preachers who preach what the Bible actually says about homosexuality — that it’s vile, that it’s disgusting, that they’re reprobates — you know, we’re gonna be blamed. Like, “It’s all extremism! It’s not just the Muslims, it’s the Christians!” I’m sure that that’s coming. I’m sure that people are gonna start attacking, you know, Bible-believing Christians now, because of what this guy did.

Now let me just be real clear: I’ve never advocated for violence. I don’t believe in, you know, taking the law into our own hands. I would never go in and shoot up a gay bar — so-called. I don’t believe it’s right for us to just be a vigilante… But I will say this: The Bible says that homosexuals should be put to death, in Leviticus 20:13. Obviously, it’s not right for somebody to just, you know, shoot up the place, because that’s not going through the proper channels. But these people all should have been killed, anyway, but they should have been killed through the proper channels, as in they should have been executed by a righteous government that would have tried them, convicted them, and saw them executed. Because, in Leviticus 20:13, God’s perfect law, he put the death penalty on murder, and he also put the death penalty on homosexuality. That’s what the Bible says, plain and simple.

So, you know, the good news is that at least 50 of these pedophiles are not gonna be harming children anymore. The bad news is that a lot of the homos in the bar are still alive, so they’re gonna continue to molest children and recruit people into their filthy homosexual lifestyle.

I’m not sad about it, I’m not gonna cry about it. Because these… 50 people in a gay bar that got shot up, they were gonna die of AIDS, and syphilis, and whatever else. They were all gonna die early, anyway, because homosexuals have a 20-year shorter life-span than normal people, anyway…"

andytug
13th Jun 2016, 16:24
Presumably he would also be OK with us all turning up to stone his wife to death for wearing mixed fibres, as also mentioned in Leviticus?
He better have an untrimmed beard and sides as well, or he's condemned.

andytug
13th Jun 2016, 16:26
Judging by his pic as on Google he's done some pretty beard trimming, so that's a stonin'

SASless
13th Jun 2016, 16:27
LV.....just for some balance....consider this!


Chaplains Deploy to Orlando Following Mass Shooting (http://billygraham.org/story/pray-for-those-grieving-devastating-loss-after-orlando-shooting/)

Tankertrashnav
13th Jun 2016, 17:07
Absolutely, SASless. The point you make is that a lunatic like Steven Andersen in no way represents mainstream Christian thinking.

In the same way Omar Mateen in no way represented mainstream Muslim thinking.

pattern_is_full
13th Jun 2016, 17:14
Some statistical clarity. Mass murders (4 or more killed) with firearms, US, 2016, prior to 6/12 (US date format). Total, 11.

1/27 - intrafamily, murder/suicide
2/20 - random, multi-locations, Uber driver suspect held
2/23 - intrafamily, perp kbp (killed by police)
2/25 - workplace, perp kbp
2/26 - domestic violence, murder/suicide
3/7 - unknown motive, possibly random, suspect arrested
3/9 - family on patio, unknown motive (possibly gang or drug-related), suspects sought
4/22 - intrafamily, murder/suicide
4/22 - family, perp unknown
5/15 - family, motive unclear, suspect arrested
6/11 - domestic violence, suspect ID'd, status unclear (possibly in Mexico)

Source: Mass Shootings - 2016 | Gun Violence Archive (http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting)

Out of 136 mass shootings (4 or more injured, or killed).

- none appear to involve any particular religion as such (but one never knows what was in the heads of the killers, especially those who did not survive the event.)

- many are intrafamily, some are family groups attacked by non-family members

Raises the question - should family members "carry," just in case a relative goes berserk?

Interesting that Orlando as such appears rather often as the location of mass shootings - above the norm, statistically. But so does Chicago.

oicur12.again
13th Jun 2016, 19:52
So the shooter in orlando ran thru the club shouting references to his god.

Before attacking Iraq for reasons we now know were manufactured, Bush did something similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br_70Kbdpow

Depending on who you listen to, a presidents speech is read by up to 15 people prior to delivery so the reference was probably not accidental.

So why did he use the word crusade?

PukinDog
13th Jun 2016, 20:24
Pukin' Dog, you can't cherry-pick just one meaning for "fundamentalism" and insist that it only may refer to the fundamental message of Christ. Many preach hate and find that fundamental to the message of Christ, often with particular focus on Christ's role as a victim of the Jews, thus making them legitimate targets for hatred and violence. Yes, it's a distortion of Christ's true message, but it's also "fundamentalism."

Here are a few Christian fundamentalists, just off the top of my head:

The Klan:

Check out the emblem: a red drop of blood in a rhomboid centered in a white cross, itself centered on a red disc: "The symbolism behind the insignia, according to various KKK groups, is that the blood drop in the center of the cross represents the blood shed by Jesus Christ at the Crucifixion, for the white Aryan race, whom they see as God's master race or chosen people." (wikipedia)

Numerous fundamentalist Christian preachers have addressed Klan rallies, preaching in support of violence and acts of terror meant to enforce Klan doctrines.


Attackers of abortion clinics:

They often see themselves as good Christians, out to stop those who "murder babies" by killing those who perform legal abortions.


The Lebanese Phalanges:

Nominally Christian, also classically fascist, directly inspired by the example of Nazi Germany, falangists were the perpetrators of the Sabra and Shatila Massacre.


Deutsche Christen:

"German Christians" were Protestants who chose to align Christian doctrine with Hitlerism, to find no fundamental conflict. Key elements of belief were:

Adolf Hitler is the completion of the Reformation.

Baptized Jews are to be dismissed from the Church, thus exposing them to Nazi persecution.

The Old Testament is to be excluded from Sacred Scriptures.


The Spanish Falange under Franco:

Ever visited the Valley of the Fallen, P. D.? One humongous basilica, internal volume greater than Saint Peter's in Rome, carved out of the living rock by P.O.W.s and political prisoners for the most part, with right behind the altar the motto, loosely translated from what I can remember, "Fallen for God and the Fatherland." Before the altar two graves, those of José Antonio Primo de Rivera and Generalissimo Francisco Franco. Now, Franco was the guy who supposedly said when he was dying that he did not need to forgive any of his enemies, because he had killed them all!

They are still exhuming corpses all over Spain, often those killed by good Catholics in the name of Christ. "Religion of peace," you say?


We could go back a bit further in history if you like. There are plenty of examples of Christians who enjoyed killing in the name of Christ, probably just as many as there are Muslims who thought that Mohammed wanted them to kill.

It is as I said then; to you, people who act in contradiction of Christ's teachings and kill in his name for god are as "fundamentalist" as those who adhere and follow them strictly, as well as follow Mohammad's explicit directives/teachings to kill according to his teachings for god. Your refusal to acknowledge this obvious fact (that the fundamentals, what was taught by these 2 figures contradict each other) with regards to violence and killing is well-noted. I'm cherry-picking nothing. I'm actually using the word correctly. You seem to be making up your own definition or hitting it with such a broad-brushstroke it's rendered meaningless.

Are you actually trying to deny the fact that Mohammad explicitly directed people to use violence and kill under the conditions he laid out? Was he leading an army he created filled with soldiers who somehow made a big mistake at what his meanings and intentions were?

Labelling those (like those you've listed) who distort, twist, and act contrary to the fundamental teachings of Jesus is using the term "fundamentalist" as a handy, pejorative label that distorts and twists the meaning of the word itself. A fundamentalist Christian would act with strict, literal adherence to the teachings of Christ. If in your world the term "fundamentalist" means even those who act contrary and opposed to those actual fundamental teachings, then what word is then used for those who act in accordance with them?

Please show me the teachings of Jesus that would support your contention that someone adhering strictly to them would exhort Kluckers to violence, be a proponent of clinic bombings, or seek to establish a Fascist, government that seeks to dominate and persecute non-believers through force and violence?

I'm asking because there's a huge body of evidence Jesus preached exactly the opposite of these things you claim "fundamentalists" do, including seeking revenge (or even physically defending him) against those who killed him (at the time or historically), let alone revolt/go to war against the Romans, destroy "unbelievers", and establish a government/legal system based on his teachings in its stead.

On the other hand, there's a litany of words and directives from Mohammad himself that do exactly those things, and not only justify the violence but rewards those who commit them. Not really a surprise, and which would be fully expected from a warlord intent on raising armies of young males, keeping them sober and fit to fight while maintaining this army with hype/promises of reward (especially if they die fighting), and establishing lasting dominance over the conquered through government control and the establishment of a legal system that doesn't see believers and non-believers as equal.

Mohammad the Warlord's words are a manual of who should be physically fought, how to do it, who to kill, who to spare (which presupposes domination), what the rewards from god supposedly are for those who inflict violence on the enemies in defence of the herd vs those who only sit by, and how to punish those who dare not convert and/or kill those who attempt to leave the faith. There is no "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's", "Turn the other cheek", or "Love they neighbour as thyself", or especially "Those without sin cast the first stone" except in the tangental recognition in Islam that Jesus was a prophet/messnger. I say tangental because the Koran doesn't actually include (let alone expand on) the actual pacifist teachings of Jesus, and even if they were, his words are superseded by the warlord Prophet Mohammad's which contradict them.

A Muslim fundamentalist strictly adheres to the words of Mohammad, and his direct teachings are laced with violence done in the name of god by his followers included, and not only for the purpose of avoiding persecution real or imagined (and they are experts at imagining it), but also in pursuit of domination. This eventual domination is considered natural and something to be achieved not only though conversion, but also through violence and a breeding program where those born into it have the very real threat of death hung over them if they choose to leave the herd after reaching an age where they can make their own decisions. Domination in society, government, and law.

This insistence that the Kluckers are a "Christian fundamentalist" organisation is amusing to me. The abolitionist movement in the U.S. was at it's heart a fundamentalist Christian one based on the idea that "all are created equal in the eyes of god" etc etc based on the literal teachings of Jesus. Those who learn history from cliche' Hollywood "history" or political-based media would probably not know this since that historical angle doesn't jive with the cliche's they sell.

Interesting too is your mention of "German Christians" fundamentalists who would expel baptized Jews from the church. Again, only "fundamentalist" by your own definition that somehow (and conveniently) excludes the the fundamental teachings of christ. I'm supremely curious as to how this would square with those teachings in light of the fact the large majority of his followers and those who accepted his teachings, the first Christians and "church", were originally Jewish themselves. Investing too is how they must have gotten along famously with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem while he was knocking about the Fatherland recruiting SS units.

rigpiggy
13th Jun 2016, 20:54
Part of the high death toll was due to a target rich environment. Packed dance floor, people unaware, high, "stupid" "we thought it was part of the dance track" etc...... If I wanted a high body/blood count pick any place that has people packed in. "airport on thankgiving holiday, parade, music fest etc......or whatever" a half ton van packed with shrapnel, and ANFO, voila instant holocaust. remember what the tsarnaev's?sp did with a couple pounds and a few pressure cookers.

Full disclosure: I am NOT a Terrorist, just showing what reasonable intelligence, imagination and a cause could do.

SASless
13th Jun 2016, 21:05
I was most surprised to learn of my guilt for the Orlando attack.

Although I was five hundred miles away and completely unaware of Mateen, or any of his machinations leading up to this Massacre.....President Obama has pinned me and other Americans with culpability for the the Attack.

I feel a bit railroaded by that......not to mention very offended as well.


Obama: ?We? are to blame, not Islamic terrorism, for massacre | New York Post (http://nypost.com/2016/06/12/obama-says-we-are-to-blame-not-islamic-terrorism-for-orlando-massacre/)

G-CPTN
13th Jun 2016, 23:01
Story emerging that the gunman was a serial adulterer.

Does that make him a good Muslim?

Chesty Morgan
13th Jun 2016, 23:04
Has anyone else gone blind on this page?

West Coast
14th Jun 2016, 00:19
Dunno CPTN, what defines a good Muslim? The 9/11 hijackers drank alcohol and visited strip clubs, I imagine they thought themselves as holy as holy can be as they approached the towers.

SMT Member
14th Jun 2016, 02:03
Anyone read 'the dancing boys of Kandahar'? Speaks volumes of the massive double standards inherent in muslim societies. And it's not limited to a geographical area, as e.g. the scandal in the UK showed us.

Also in that respect not too different from fundamental Christians; spitting the worst rhetoric possible at anything to do with LGBT, all whilst raping underage choirboys in secret.

I will bet you a considerable amount of money, the perpetrator in Orlando was not unfamiliar with gay sex.

As for American's and gun control, no amount of 'statistics' will ever sway the public opinion on this matter, which is a tad odd for a nation so obsessed with statistics, particularly those involving sports. There are too many very, very rich interests vested in the idea, plus the whole American dream of being the lone cowboy saving the day with his six-shooter, coupled with a society and culture, which worships and cultivate violence and add as the final ingredient half the population believing angels are for real.

It's not going to change. The insistence on the right to bear arms will outweigh anything, anything, no matter how gruesome or horrible. The blame will always be directed elsewhere, than the mad idiocy of having a guy on the FBI watchlist employed as an armed security guard, able to visit any gunshop and legally purchase as many AR-15's as his credit card would allow, with the high-capacity magazines to go with it.

PukinDog
14th Jun 2016, 02:59
SMT member
As for American's and gun control, no amount of 'statistics' will ever sway the public opinion on this matter, which is a tad odd for a nation so obsessed with statistics,

You know what's even odder? Brit and Euro-obsession with America and it's laws, the Brit/Euro assumption of expertise on all matters American from culture to Constitution, and the repetitive, tiresomely predictable Brit/Euro circle-jerking about their own supposed superiority.

There is always so much pseudo-sophisticated Brit/Euro nonsense ejaculated and splattered against the floor and walls of any thread steered into soapboxing re American gun ownership/control/Rights one may as well stand by with a barrel of bleach and firehose to clean it up.

What's with that anyway? The obsession, I mean. The one that leads to all those self-congratulatory and masturbatory delusions of expertise and sophistication?

CaptOveur
14th Jun 2016, 03:02
Once Americans gutless congressmen beholden to the gun lobby decided that killing kids was acceptable there was simply no point discussing it any further.


There, FIFY

galaxy flyer
14th Jun 2016, 03:33
The blame will always be directed elsewhere, than the mad idiocy of having a guy on the FBI watchlist employed as an armed security guard, able to visit any gunshop and legally purchase as many AR-15's as his credit card would allow, with the high-capacity magazines to go with it.

Isn't that a failing of government, specifically the FBI, to remove him from the NICS program. Fact is, he should have been flagged and denied the gun purchases. There are something like 800 Americans on FBI watch lists--why aren't they deported to Gitmo, something you all would resist. My oath of office said, "defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic". I'd say someone who invokes a foreign power, commits murder at that power's suggestion or direction is an enemy, deserving of little more than a bullet.

GF

Mr Optimistic
14th Jun 2016, 03:46
As a foreigner here at the moment, it does come as a shock to see the rows of semi automatic longs, and cabinets of handguns. AR15 for around $500 minus fully automatic mode, which you can restore with a $100 gizmo.

SASless
14th Jun 2016, 03:50
Post proof of that Hundred Dollar Gizmo will you.....this I just got to see to believe.....as I know just a little bit about the issue you raise.

Who knows....I might want to buy three of them....except for the small problem of it being illegal to convert any weapon to a full automatic style weapon.

That law came about back in the middle 1930's as you may remember.

Also....tis a bit hard to "restore" a feature the weapon never had to start with.

WhatsaLizad?
14th Jun 2016, 03:51
As a foreigner here at the moment, it does come as a shock to see the rows of semi automatic longs, and cabinets of handguns. AR15 for around $500 minus fully automatic mode, which you can restore with a $100 gizmo.


Not really.
That ability was long ago. IF what you saw was new builds, one can't get a "gizmo" for full auto.

Flying Binghi
14th Jun 2016, 04:58
Seems some like obama are to useless to face the facts that islam is the problem. Being cowardly and trying to blame all and sundry for an ISLAMIC terrorism act is just pissweak..:hmm:

The terrorists do not have a tool fixation like obama and some around here. The terrorists will use what ever, when ever. In inspire magazine (thats the magazine aimed at western wanna-be terrorists) the terrorist organisers talk of using fire, explosives, knives and even running people over with cars - Big SUV's so more people get killed. And there is a reason why large fuel tankers are a concern to the anti terror people. As i posted before in this thread, 20 litres of petrol can do more damage inside a night club then any little semi auto.

So meekly prattle on all yer want about guns though it makes no difference to the terrorists and future terrorist attacks..:hmm:





.

ORAC
14th Jun 2016, 06:14
And in the Middle East, where guns are even more easily available, the weapon of choice is the car/truck bomb - not the AK47.

chuks
14th Jun 2016, 06:44
Pukin' Dog, I assume that you are a former member of the "Pukin' Dogs," VFA-143, a US Navy Strike Fighter Squadron, or perhaps VF-143, its predecessor, a US Navy Fighter Squadron.

I am all for raining death upon our enemies, under certain circumstances. (Budget constraints mean that we should not try to kill them all lest we run out of money before we run out of enemies.) What would Jesus have to say, though, about strapping an F4 or whatever it was to your butt and going off to smite the unrighteous? Would He be totally cool with that, or would he think that a bit naughty of you? There's no "turn the other cheek" to flying for a US Navy Strike Fighter Squadron, I hope! Yet, if my assumptions are correct, you seem to have been able to have flown your missions while also following this or that Christian religion of peace.

If there's a contradiction there, a fundamental one, it's not enough of a contradiction to have kept you from being a bit violent at times yourself, right? I understand that it's one thing to go massacre people in a night club, something else to fly a military mission, but both essentially violate that basic Christian injunction to love your neighbor.

Not to pick on you, Pukin' Dog, since we often are presented with the paradox of one of our fellows from what we want to see as a religion of peace attacking even peaceful members of what some of us want to see as a religion of war. Then we just call that "collateral damage" and go right back to seeing ourselves as good followers of peace-loving Christ who are under threat from uniquely menacing Muslims who follow that nasty Mohammed.

ORAC
14th Jun 2016, 07:09
The Spectator: Homophobia is now met with the same silence given to anti-Semitism (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/homophobic-murder-will-gays-become-new-jews/)

Nemrytter
14th Jun 2016, 07:57
You know what's even odder? Brit and Euro-obsession with America and it's laws, the Brit/Euro assumption of expertise on all matters American from culture to Constitution, and the repetitive, tiresomely predictable Brit/Euro circle-jerking about their own supposed superiority.
...
What's with that anyway? The obsession, I mean. The one that leads to all those self-congratulatory and masturbatory delusions of expertise and sophistication?Looks like someone hit a nerve.:E

CargoMatatu
14th Jun 2016, 08:47
:ok::ok::ok::D:D:D

fa2fi
14th Jun 2016, 09:26
Orlando shooter Omar Mateen was gay, former classmate says | www.palmbeachpost.com (http://m.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/)

Going back to what I said in post 5 (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/580268-florida-nightclub-massacre.html#post9406502) then this is a big development if true. A toxic combination of being gay and not wanting to be and following a religion who teaches that gays should be killed has had terrible consequences.

The parents are bizarrely blaming club security. Perhaps they could reflect on what they could have done to prevent this?

PDR1
14th Jun 2016, 10:35
You know what's even odder? Brit and Euro-obsession with America and it's laws, the Brit/Euro assumption of expertise on all matters American from culture to Constitution, and the repetitive, tiresomely predictable Brit/Euro circle-jerking about their own supposed superiority.

America is one of our closest friends (hate to tell you this, but you will always be behind Cameron Diaz and Angelina Jolie in the preference list).

When you see your close friends doing something really, really dumb you try to help them stop. If your close friend takes to sticking needles in their arm you help them get to rehab. If your close friend has a drink problem you help them climb back on the wagon. So if your close friend develops a dangerous and destructive fetish over firearms you try to help them grow up.

It's what friends do.

PDR

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
14th Jun 2016, 10:49
Tis ironic that the remedy espoused by some on here to madmen with guns, is to insist that more people have guns.

HeartyMeatballs
14th Jun 2016, 10:55
PukinDog - even if I wanted to care less about US laws I physically couldn't. But let's not forget the US meddles in our politics. Just look at Obama trying to scare supporters of Brexit and there is a LOT of opinion toward it stateside. But as PDR mentions, it's never to be condescending. But when you have a 9/11's worth of gun deaths every 4 months then you have a problem. The US acted on 9/11 (with catastrophic results) so why not gun crime?

wishiwasupthere
14th Jun 2016, 11:01
If Americans weren't willing to change their gun laws after a classroom of innocent small children was slaughtered, nothing that subsequently happens will convince them. Its a lost cause, and the rest of us can be thankful that we are lucky enough not to live in the US.

Curious Pax
14th Jun 2016, 11:08
fa2fi, Yes, now looking like pink on pink.
Wonder if Owen Jones is now regretting 'doing a Nott' on Sky :hmm:

Why would he - it reinforces the possibility that it was a gay hate crime as much as an Islamist terrorist attack which the interviewer was obsessing about. Just because the basket case perpetrator may have had his own gay issues in the melting pot doesn't stop it being a gay hate crime.

chuks
14th Jun 2016, 11:35
Did you guys miss the latest news from the perp's widow, that he was also scoping out Disney World for a similar attack? (Interesting, that she did not bother to go to the authorities with the news that her husband wanted to kill a lot of people .... )

This might have very little to do with fundamentalist Islam and/or homophobia, when then it becomes just another self-hater who wanted to kill a whole lot of people and then go out in a blaze of not glory but attention. That 911 call pledging allegiance to ISIS then becomes just another part of this shallow grab for a flashy way to make an exit.

It's kind of shallow as well, the way that the LGBTQ crowd all want to jump to the conclusion that it's all about them, that this must have been homophobia, instead of waiting a bit to see why (assuming we can figure that out) this gay night club was attacked. It might be simply that it was there that the killer could be sure of finding a venue packed with people who would not be able to understand immediately what was going on. Some of the survivors said that they thought the gunshots were sound effects, for example, when those places usually are very, very noisy and rather dark.

fa2fi
14th Jun 2016, 11:46
We'll he did act extremely angrily previously to seeing two men together. Then he goes on the rampage. It's not too far out there to put the two together.

PDR1
14th Jun 2016, 11:50
You mean in the same way that the american publis jumped to the conclusion that the WTC attacks were attacks on americans instead of waiting to see if they were part of a campaign by the provisional wing of the international acrophobics brotherhood to draw attention to the inherent cruelty embodied in the whole concept of multi-storey buildings?

Yeah, right...

PDR

chuks
14th Jun 2016, 12:18
What would thinking about perhaps attacking Disney World have to do with homophobia then? You might as well think that we nuked Nagasaki because it was a center of Japanese Christianity. We are assigning a certain causality to something that might have come down to "Disney World is closed now, but I just gots to kill a whole of people tonight."

This guy comes off as Mr Angry, beating the first wife for not doing the laundry and all, so that he might have been just as P.O.'d seeing two guys kissing, two girls kissing, a young unmarried couple kissing ... kissing in public, Bah!

PDR1, I guess you missed the way that Osama bin Laden did claim responsibility for the attacks, and that 15 out of the 19 attackers were also Saudis, while all were Muslims. Those things did not leave a lot of other possibilities open than that 9/11 had something to do with our role as the Great Satan and thus as some sort of foe of Islam to some. George W. Bush did not do a good job of national leadership then, but nobody but the moonbats thinks that he called that one wrong by blaming Muslim fanatics for the deed.

PDR1
14th Jun 2016, 12:23
Chuks, I guess you missed the way that the perp in orlando was someone with a long history of venting hatred against LGBT people and the detail that the target was a specificly LGBT club.

PDR

ORAC
14th Jun 2016, 12:38
PDR1, not so it seems. Though evidently severely internally conflicted. One wonders how much grief he got from his parents, certainly his father, and perhaps pressured into an arranged marriage - which might explain the domestic anger and violence involved and why it ended after just a few months....

Orlando shooter Omar Mateen 'was a regular at Pulse nightclub' | US news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-a-regular-at-nightclub)

chuks
14th Jun 2016, 12:46
Noted. Now explain how we can connect reportedly also planning an attack on Disney World with actually attacking a gay night club.

Ever read Catch 22? Remember this one?

"You haven't got a chance, kid," he told him glumly. "They hate Jews."

"But I'm not Jewish," answered Clevinger.

"It will make no difference," Yossarian promised, and Yossarian was right. "They're after everybody."

People seem ever so much happier to know the reason why someone died, whether that was because they were gay, or Christian, or Muslim ... whatever it was, that there was some good reason for dying, rather than simply having chosen the wrong day to go shopping at Wal-Mart.

What is it, really, between dying in a welter of blood, crouched clutching a family-size bag of Cheetos with a stupid look on your face, gunned down in Aisle 6 by some redneck who was actually aiming at the guy stood next to you because of a big dent in his pickup truck, compared to having been stood there brandishing your crucifix, bravely facing a horde of Muslim fanatics? Either way you are just plain dead, but so many of us seem to think that the one way of dying is so very much better than the other because it's so much more meaningful.

T28B
14th Jun 2016, 13:21
@SASlessThe Shooter has been on an FBI Watch List but had not been investigated according to Reports. So was Lee Harvey Oswald. There is only so much that a 'we know who you are' approach can do to prevent crime. Pre-emptive custody isn't going to fly, for a variety of good (civil rights) reasons.

PDR1
14th Jun 2016, 14:41
PDR1, not so it seems. Though evidently severely internally conflicted. One wonders how much grief he got from his parents, certainly his father, and perhaps pressured into an arranged marriage - which might explain the domestic anger and violence involved and why it ended after just a few months....

Orlando shooter Omar Mateen 'was a regular at Pulse nightclub' | US news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-a-regular-at-nightclub)

The fact that he may have been gay and conflicted doesn't stop him committing the act to vent his hatred of LGBT people. He would not be the first person of a strict conservative upbringing to realise he was gay and then vent his conflicted anger on other gay people (whom are somehow the cause). It's still homophobic violence, in this case the homophobia being mainly that of his family which caused him to see himself as unclean and perverted.

Chuks - the real message of your "man in the store shooting over a dented car" example is the idea that someone would resort to firearms over such a trivial issue. Rational societies regard that sort of thing as an obscenity, you know.

PDR

SASless
14th Jun 2016, 15:22
PC says we cannot bash Gays, Muslims, Persons of Color.....you folks need to lay off this talk about the poor confused fellow who murdered so many innocent folks.

PC says he must get a Pass for his crimes as he plainly falls within several Protected Groups.

ATNotts
14th Jun 2016, 15:24
America is one of our closest friends (hate to tell you this, but you will always be behind Cameron Diaz and Angelina Jolie in the preference list).

When you see your close friends doing something really, really dumb you try to help them stop. If your close friend takes to sticking needles in their arm you help them get to rehab. If your close friend has a drink problem you help them climb back on the wagon. So if your close friend develops a dangerous and destructive fetish over firearms you try to help them grow up.

It's what friends do.

PDR
So on that principal, Obama intervening in the UK referendum debate should be OK, and tolerated.

Don't think there are many on JB who believe that "friendly advice" should be reciprocated on that basis!

Lonewolf_50
14th Jun 2016, 15:29
Probably time the 2nd had a bit of tweeking perhaps. The RIGHT needs no tweaking. There are laws a plenty already on the books. Do yourself a favor and research the codes and laws in all 50 states, and the federal fire arms laws. Self education is a good thing. It seems that once again that you really don't understand our system. (To use an exaggerated analogy, I don't tell a brain surgeon how to tweak his methods because I really don't understand his system).

PDR1
14th Jun 2016, 15:37
So on that principal, Obama intervening in the UK referendum debate should be OK, and tolerated.


That's fine by me - I'd actually think it strange if the leader of our strongest ally (politically and militarily) voiced no opinions on a matter with political ramifications of this magnitude. The only actual problem is that there are far too many on both sides of the [brexit] debate whose own views are based on dogma or repressed racism which makes them insecure and unable to cope with any expressed opinion which is less extreme (and/or better justified) than their own.

PDR

ATNotts
14th Jun 2016, 15:47
That's fine by me - I'd actually think it strange if the leader of our strongest ally (politically and militarily) voiced no opinions on a matter with political ramifications of this magnitude. The only actual problem is that there are far too many on both sides of the [brexit] debate whose own views are based on dogma or repressed racism which makes them insecure and unable to cope with any expressed opinion which is less extreme (and/or better justified) than their own.

PDR
Fine by me too. Your sentiments are very much mine.

PDR1
14th Jun 2016, 15:49
Damn - can I have another go at it...?

:)

PDR

Lonewolf_50
14th Jun 2016, 15:50
Funny how terrorists in France and elsewhere in Europe have no issue finding weapons to commit their deeds. That's not a facet of those discussions, rather intent, general handwringing, questions on immigration, etc. Somehow when terrorism happens in the US it's simply a gun issue. The terrorists have more angles than some of you. I'm not sure this is terrorism. It reminds me more of someone like Oswald: a misfit (oddly enough, Oswald was also a wife beater) with a brain and a complete sense of alienation from everyone around him. (Kind of like that kid who shot up that school with his mom's guns). On top of that is a desire to no longer be a nobody.


You meet quite a few kids like this when you deal with teens who are introverts, who try suicide, or who get bullied a lot. (These kids usually grow up to be adults ... with issues). They feel no connection with their peer group, and in the larger sense no connection with society that they are in. They want to make their mark, they want burst out from their little zone of unhappiness with themselves and their lives. How they finally act out varies. (Two people related to my wife attempted suicide as teens. They both failed. One with blades, the other with pills). I got to volunteer for a short while some years ago for a suicide prevention hot line. We moved two months later but I did not pursue that bit of volunteer service again. I honestly don't think I was the right person for it, and may or not have grown enough to maybe try again.


I think that law enforcement gets frustrated when they have someone in a profile like this example, and they can't just take him off the street. As someone mentioned a few posts back, there are solid constitutional reasons for that.

As to the concealed carry into nightclubs/bars: I'd say keep the booze and the firearms separate. Where I live, in Texas, the signs are posted about how many years you'll get if you carry into a night club without legal permit. Ten years is the number that is usually on the local posting. Haven't been in a bar without one of those notices in recent memory.

Were I a bar owner, I'd not want anyone packing in my place who wasn't a cop. Not even my bouncers/security guards.

Interesting point made earlier: music today is such a mass of noise and cacophony. The comment made by a witness is revealing in that they thought the first few shots were part of the music being played.

West Coast
14th Jun 2016, 16:21
[QUOTEI'm not sure this is terrorism.[/QUOTE]

You're at odds with law enforcement and a few nutters here in you beliefs. I believe even the President has called it terrorism. You as a non trained shrink (my assumption ) as to motive armed with media reports. I'll stick with what's known so far to develop my picture.

He was Muslim.
He pledged allegiance to ISIS.
He was known to listen to a cleric that promoted violence against homosexuals.
ISIS has called for lone wolf attacks in Europe and the US. He answered the call.

ORAC
14th Jun 2016, 16:23
PDR1, my earlier comment of "not so it seems", was not referring to this being a homophobic attack, it obviously was. Rather it was to your comment that, "the perp in orlando was someone with a long history of venting hatred against LGBT people".

As expressed in the article I linked, he was a frequent visitor to the club, though this conduct there when sober/drunk seems a signal of his internal conflict; plus his failed to follow through contacts on a gay app indicates the same. But neither indicates a long history of venting against gays, rather an internal struggle inside himself.

More a sudden snap and explosion rather than a slow burning fuse - also indicated by the fact he only bought the guns in the 48 hours prior to the attack.

G-CPTN
14th Jun 2016, 16:24
Orlando killer Omar Mateen 'visited Pulse gay club' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36525219).

Lonewolf_50
14th Jun 2016, 16:28
I'm not sure this is terrorism. You're at odds with law enforcement and a few nutters here in your beliefs. I believe even the President has called it terrorism. You as a non trained shrink (my assumption ) as to motive armed with media reports. I'll stick with what's known so far to develop my picture.

He was Muslim.
He pledged allegiance to ISIS.
He was known to listen to a cleric that promoted violence against homosexuals.
ISIS has called for lone wolf attacks in Europe and the US. He answered the call. Excuse me for a bit of out of the box thinking.

West Coast
14th Jun 2016, 16:46
What makes you think out of the box thinking about his motive is warranted?

Curious Pax
14th Jun 2016, 16:59
Know your enemy? In conventional warfare I imagine you wouldn't have a single plan for use in the event of someone firing on you?

Whilst for the victims it doesn't matter a tinker's cuss which end of the strategic spectrum the perpetrator comes from, if you are serious about putting an end to these terrorist acts, in whichever form they take, then you need to understand how to combat the different build ups.

Unfortunately with the Orlando shooter more and more evidence is pointing to him being seriously disturbed, to the extent that there's a fair chance that the whole ISIS connection was just a red rag to get himself higher up the agenda on the evening TV news. If the current hot topic was the nefarious activities of the Leprechaun Liberation Front he would have been covered in LLF badges!

ISIS know that it doesn't take many deranged nutters to do something similar to Orlando to create mayhem, while they themselves don't have to do a thing. It's why they have openly encouraged lone wolf attacks, and emphasized that permission to go ahead doesn't need to be sought from ISIS. Meanwhile they can get on with planning larger scale events such as Paris - win win from their warped point of view.

We gain nothing by oversimplifying the issue - although a cynic may think that defence industries and certain strangely-haired politicians may quietly disagree!

West Coast
14th Jun 2016, 17:23
Unfortunately with the Orlando shooter more and more evidence is pointing to him being seriously disturbed,

Were the Paris attackers of sound mind to do what they did? The San Bernidino attack was set off by some slight at an office party. This and others fit well into the Lonewolf mentality that the current top dog terrorist outfit is asking of it's followers.

There are many pieces of the puzzle that point to terrorism. Too many to throw them out in favor of someone struggling with their sexuality. I agree oversimplication has inherent risk, then again so does interjecting gray area.

I'm willing to wager, that just like the rest of us, every member of ISIS has slightly differing motive. Yet they fight for a common goal. That this guy may have suppressed views is second to the task he undertook. He ascribed to the more radical versions of his religion. He was influenced by those who promoted hate against an element of society. He was implored to go beyond aspirational and become operational by the leadership of an organization that's at war with the west.

The above paragraph could refer to the terrorists in Paris or the terrorist in Orlando.

seen_the_box
14th Jun 2016, 17:32
Pre-emptive custody isn't going to fly, for a variety of good (civil rights) reasons.

Actually I'd suggest that a policy of internment is one of the measures under serious consideration by one of the presidential candidates.

It's time for the gloves to come off in the fight against these people who loathe us and our society.

SASless
14th Jun 2016, 18:00
Everyone of the adherents to the ISIS Agenda are deranged in my estimation!

As to not having a "plan" of reaction to such an attack....well...why yes I do.

It is not like I walk around thinking I will ever be the target of such an attack....but I know in my Heart I shall not be a "Victim".

But then with my military, police, and other related experience and training....I carry a mindset and skill set (perhaps a bit rusty but still there) that will see me well (I hope) should it happen.

You might as well get shot going after the Shooter as hide, play dead, or in any way hope the Bad Man goes away, runs out of Ammo, or dies of a heart attack before he gets to you and then shoots you.

It is not bravado....just commonsense and a knowledge that in some circumstances passive behavior will get you killed just as surely as being aggressive. Far better to go out as a Wolf than as a Sheep.

Pacificism is way over rated in Active Gunman situations.

If we teach Women to be alert in Parking Lots at night.....why should we not endorse similar practices in other places and for other Threat Scenario's?

This World of ours is constantly evolving....perhaps we should evolve with it as well.

Lonewolf_50
14th Jun 2016, 18:21
Actually I'd suggest that a policy of internment is one of the measures under serious consideration by one of the presidential candidates. Try to stay on topic. This shooter was from the US, albeit of parents from a foreign country. That point does not fit into your oversimplification of political rhetoric.

The point being made that you quoted there had to do with civil rights. I realize that you may not understand that concept, being from a foreign country, but the rights of our citizens are something a lot of Americans take seriously. What isn't considered acceptable is the Minority Report approach (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/), where you get arrested because someone thinks you might commit a crime.
In a future where a special police unit is able to arrest murderers before they commit their crimes, an officer from that unit is himself accused of a future murder. That movie is based on a piece of speculative fiction, and we'd like that premise to remain just that: fiction.

Fifty or so years ago the institutionalizing of those with serious mental disorders was significantly curtailed. There were a variety of reasons for that. The reason I agreed with the most was to reduce the chances of that Tool of the System being used to put people away under false pretenses. (See the old Soviet model of using that approach on dissidents ... )


@West Coast: from a strict liability perspective, I see your point on the open recruitment of anyone to fall in on the Big Tent ISIS idea ... not sure how to say "stick it to the man" in Arabic, but the sentiment is similar. That's the kind of Radical/weathermen/SDS/Commie era appeal to revolution that was so often heard in the 50's and 60's and 70's, as with Bader Meinhoff/Red Army Faction and Red Brigade sorts. Che Guevara and Fidel Castro were heroes for the usual band of useful idiots, but there were also purer anarchists like SLA running amok.

As I review Oswald's story again, his being kicked out of the Marines on an Admin discharge, his defection to the USSR and his attempted move to Cuba via Mexico were related to him trying to live the rhetoric of the commie revolution whose appeal was global. In that regard, the linkage between this latest shooter and the "counter revolution" a la ISIS fit well enough.

Can't remember who said this, but I think someone in Cuba rejected Oswald's efforts to move to Cuba. Short version: this loser wasn't someone who'd be an asset to the revolution. Not sure how that Imam would view this shooter: in a similar light, we don't need losers, or "all are welcome in big tent ISIS, you can't be a loser if you'll be a martyr for the cause."

RatherBeFlying
14th Jun 2016, 18:28
Mass shootings by such folk is largely a function of population dynamics.

The casualty count is hugely dependent on what kind of weaponry is obtainable.

Before IS fell on the publicity aspect of encouraging these folk to wrap themselves in their banner, there were other causes. Only a small portion of mass casualty attacks in North America pick up the ISIS banner.

The Wahhabis have been making far more trouble with fellow Muslims over the last couple hundred years than with those of other creeds.

It took several million casualties and a few hundred years for Christians to sort out their schisms and heresies.

seen_the_box
14th Jun 2016, 18:29
In the interest of public safety, civil liberties must sometimes be curtailed. Your country has a long and glorious history of doing just that, and your government doesn't exactly take the rights of its citizens particularly seriously. (See, inter alia, The Patriot Act and AEDPA)

Internment is hardly something new to America: such a policy was prosecuted against Japanese Americans during WWII to good effect.

I'm sure it won't be long until Trump suggests the internment of Muslims 'until such time as...". Many would applaud him for doing so.

Lonewolf_50
14th Jun 2016, 18:38
In the interest of public safety, civil liberties must sometimes be curtailed. Your country has a long and glorious history of doing just that, and your government doesn't exactly take the rights of its citizens particularly seriously. (See, inter alia, The Patriot Act and AEDPA) And you are simply wrong. There's more to this country than "the government" and I think I'm about done with your cartoon version of our system. Suggest you review Civil Rights, 1946-1965 - without the government and courts in action, it goes nowhere. Suggest you review the women's rights 1945-2000, and how that moved forward. Without the law, the people, the courts, and the government, that progress doesn't overcome inertia. With it, profound change happens. (Google this name, as it's someone I've met: Wendy Lawrence. Without the previous effort, she doesn't end up in space.) I could go on but I note a certain willfulness in your response. Good day, and don't pretend that you actually know anything about my country. It's pretty obvious that you don't.


As to safety versus Liberty, Franklin had it right, and you don't.

PukinDog
14th Jun 2016, 18:53
chuks
Pukin' Dog, I assume that you are a former member of the "Pukin' Dogs," VFA-143, a US Navy Strike Fighter Squadron, or perhaps VF-143, its predecessor, a US Navy Fighter Squadron.

I am all for raining death upon our enemies, under certain circumstances. (Budget constraints mean that we should not try to kill them all lest we run out of money before we run out of enemies.) What would Jesus have to say, though, about strapping an F4 or whatever it was to your butt and going off to smite the unrighteous? Would He be totally cool with that, or would he think that a bit naughty of you? There's no "turn the other cheek" to flying for a US Navy Strike Fighter Squadron, I hope! Yet, if my assumptions are correct, you seem to have been able to have flown your missions while also following this or that Christian religion of peace.

If there's a contradiction there, a fundamental one, it's not enough of a contradiction to have kept you from being a bit violent at times yourself, right? I understand that it's one thing to go massacre people in a night club, something else to fly a military mission, but both essentially violate that basic Christian injunction to love your neighbor.

Not to pick on you, Pukin' Dog, since we often are presented with the paradox of one of our fellows from what we want to see as a religion of peace attacking even peaceful members of what some of us want to see as a religion of war. Then we just call that "collateral damage" and go right back to seeing ourselves as good followers of peace-loving Christ who are under threat from uniquely menacing Muslims who follow that nasty Mohammed.

You're 1-for-2 in your assumptions, chuks, your correct one unfortunately leading into an incorrect one that I'm a pacifist or not a believer in the appropriate application of violence where necessary. This belief that it is sometimes necessary doesn't make me feel conflicted, angsty, or like I lived a contradiction. I certainly don't feel picked-on since as I mentioned in an earlier response to you...

I don't consider myself a Christian, fundamental or otherwise.

What would Jesus think about it? Well, if he'd not be totally cool with or embrace the righteous naughtiness of strapping-on a Grumman designed to bring great harm to one's enemies instead of loving them like thyself, I'd want a different RIO.

Chesty Morgan
14th Jun 2016, 19:38
But then with my military, police, and other related experience and training....I carry a mindset and skill set (perhaps a bit rusty but still there) that will see me well (I hope) should it happen.


That is until somebody shoots you in the back of the head from 20 yards away because no matter how much of a wannabe hero and superman you are you ain't dodging that bullet.

Do you see the problem yet?

PukinDog
14th Jun 2016, 19:38
America is one of our closest friends (hate to tell you this, but you will always be behind Cameron Diaz and Angelina Jolie in the preference list).

When you see your close friends doing something really, really dumb you try to help them stop. If your close friend takes to sticking needles in their arm you help them get to rehab. If your close friend has a drink problem you help them climb back on the wagon. So if your close friend develops a dangerous and destructive fetish over firearms you try to help them grow up.

It's what friends do.

PDR

Brits (and those they've spawned who haven't had the pleasure of completely shaking you) have been trying to "help" Americans give up their weapons since their foiled 1775 gun-grab attempt in Concord Massachusetts. Your "help" didn't work then, won't work now. Americans having/owning guns is hardly a new development, but the hand-wringing about failing to take them away the first time seems to be an ongoing 240 year-old obsession passed down through your generations. We've been hearing those friendly "Tut tuts" as part of the background white noise of irrelevant opinions from across the Atlantic forever. Expect our friendly response to them to be the same as ever.

As far as accepting your friendly, meddling help re gun laws being a sign of growing up, let me return the favor and suggest in the friendliest way I can that you change your laws and give up your children's storybook notions of Kings, Queens, Princes, Princesses, and of course, Knights. Advice on adult matters and responsibilities given by those who are still bowing down and obsessing about characters taken straight out of a Mother Goose story can't be taken seriously.

So how about a friendly deal? You change your government and ditch your childish Royals and silly Sir Whoevers , and we'll consider amending our Constitution (or not).

chuks
14th Jun 2016, 19:48
Well, Pukin' Dog, you might want to read up a bit on what can make up "fundamentalism," just for fun.

When the term's conventionally applied to Christianity it may include such things as holding the King James Bible, all of it, to be both inerrant and the literal Word of God. That can mean rejecting any nuanced readings, so that the "sword" is just that, a sword.

I can tell you that I preferred the Muslims of the Algerian desert to the Christians of the hills of Virginia for company. It would be an interesting thing to see you try to tell those good old boys that they are getting it wrong, the way they interpret their King James Bible. One might toss you a rattlesnake then, one of their ways of getting closer to God.

tdracer
14th Jun 2016, 20:17
I'm somewhat puzzled by the viewpoint that any sort of reasonable gun control would have kept firearms out the hands of an individual who had a 'day job' as an armed security guard! :confused: I do think his employer should have to answer for the validity of their background checks (which the shooter reportedly passed, twice :eek:)

As it happens, the wife and I went to the theater in Seattle just hours before Orlando - a sign near the entrance announcing "No Guns Permitted". I remember wondering at the time 'is this good, or just making us sitting ducks?' (there was no obvious enforcement - no metal detectors or bag checks or such, and I think you could easily fit an Uzi in my wife's purse :rolleyes:).

G-CPTN
14th Jun 2016, 20:37
Well, Pukin' Dog, you might want to read up a bit on what can make up "fundamentalism," just for fun.

When the term's conventionally applied to Christianity it may include such things as holding the King James Bible, all of it, to be both inerrant and the literal Word of God. That can mean rejecting any nuanced readings, so that the "sword" is just that, a sword.

I can tell you that I preferred the Muslims of the Algerian desert to the Christians of the hills of Virginia for company. It would be an interesting thing to see you try to tell those good old boys that they are getting it wrong, the way they interpret their King James Bible. One might toss you a rattlesnake then, one of their ways of getting closer to God.
Try this:- QIxkrFgb0CI

Click on subtitles if you have trouble understanding.

seen_the_box
14th Jun 2016, 20:56
As to safety versus Liberty, Franklin had it right, and you don't.

Franklin talked of giving up 'essential liberty'.

There is nothing essential about allowing your enemies to wander around with impunity in your nation.

Luckily for you, your potential future president is of the same mind.

If nothing else, the posts by American contributors here give a fairly big clue as to why the USA is viewed with equal measures of bewilderment, voyeuristic fascination and loathing by the civilised world. What's interesting is that Americans seem genuinely puzzled as to why their country is widely despised.

megan
14th Jun 2016, 21:24
Arabs have one of the highest rates of genetic disorders in the world due to inbreeding. Depression is noted as a side effect, which would go some way to explaining what we see.

http://www.jeans4genes.org/files/gc_arab_people.pdf

Genetic Diseases Studies in Arabic Countries (http://www.jeans4genes.org/arabinfostudies.html)

obgraham
14th Jun 2016, 21:35
What's interesting is that Americans seem genuinely puzzled as to why their country is widely despised. Actually I don't know a single American who spends any time worrying about that. That includes both the well traveled and the more isolationist types.

Your images of Americans are figments of your own imagination.

seen_the_box
14th Jun 2016, 21:39
I don't think I suggested that you were worried about it...

megan
14th Jun 2016, 22:00
Sounding a bit like Trump thereWell, if you want to search you'll find plenty of Arab academic studies and written literature on the subject.

mickjoebill
14th Jun 2016, 22:27
Lateline - 14/06/2016: Controversial Islamic cleric who called for homosexuals to be executed boards a flight to Dubai to leave Australia (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2016/s4481907.htm)

Here is a rare interview with the Islamic cleric who lectured in Orlando a few weeks ago.

It was recorded last night just before he left Australia, following the PM's suggestion that he should be deported.

It is an extraordinary interview, the cleric is a British born doctor who in a lecture at Michigan university 3 years ago, said under Sharia law if homosexuals were caught having anal sex in public they should be put to death.

In the interview he countered that the comments were made in an acedemic setting, (as if that is justification) but when pushed by the journalist he still agreed with the law and that his only mistake was recording the lecture and so making it available to be broadcast on YouTube.

In this interview he says.
"Look, we love you like any other person. And this is for your own best interests. You will sin less. And when you go into the hereafter, you won't be accountable because you are punished for the same....and how fortunate you are, because you won't be accountable for it because of that punishment. And now you're in the hereafter. We've saved you."



To one side, in an extraordinary conclusion the ABC journalist says "Well, Sheik, I can't accept your views, but thank you very much for your time."
Basically a state broadcaster, ABC saying they do not agree with the Sharia law.


Mickjoebill

Ascend Charlie
14th Jun 2016, 23:00
And as usual, the bearded person said "My words have been taken out of context".

Their usual way of avoiding responsibility for the hatred they preach. "Oh, you have misunderstood me - the English translation is not what I said in arabic."

obgraham
14th Jun 2016, 23:37
Sounding a bit like Trump there, Bit of a knee jerk there, Eggy.

Suggest you actually look at some of the references in the second link from Megan.

A lot of medical and ethical research and discussion published in Islamic journals. I was only able to locate the abstracts of some, and would love to see the entire article. Clearly, though, the writers are unable to disconnect their medical research from the over-riding Islamic control. They speak of Islamic advice for "pre-marital examinations" and suchlike.

Mr Trump is sounding more and more like the only clear thinker in the group now.

chuks
15th Jun 2016, 04:45
"What's interesting is that Americans seem genuinely puzzled as to why their country is widely despised," writes a man from France.

It is interesting that you may think so. When one of my fellow Americans can post this without one of those stupid "irony" or "joke" emojis, "Mr Trump is sounding more and more like the only clear thinker in the group now," you do not see any deliberate attempt at actively courting being despised, doing some sort of send-up, only faking puzzlement at being widely despised? When we splatter ketchup all over our steak frites you don't see any provocation in that?

The French, on the other hand .... There must be an Ecole Nationale Superiere d' Impolitesse Terminale for French waiters, because nobody is born that way, are they? Or is there a rudeness gene, one we have never bothered to screen for? Whatever it is, when a Parisian waiter is despised he must just think to himself, in Frog of course, Hah!

So, "Garçon, le ketchup, see voo play!"

seen_the_box
15th Jun 2016, 05:22
Just to clarify: I am not French. I would hate for anyone to get that impression.

One thing you can say for the French (and believe me there's not a lot they have going for them): they genuinely don't care how they're perceived by the rest of the world. And at least they're mature enough as a nation not to let mentally disturbed individuals buy military grade weaponary.

pattern_is_full
15th Jun 2016, 05:22
One Christian's perspective: Pastor Roger Jimenez, Verity Baptist Church, Sacramento Sunday June 13.

"Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today? Um no. I think that’s great. I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida, is a little safer tonight. The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die. The tragedy is I’m kind of upset he didn’t finish the job – because these people are predators. They are abusers.


I wish the government would round them all up, put them up against a firing wall, put the firing squad in front of them and blow their brains out."


Fair's fair. If you are going to implicate Islam based what its most radical fundamentalists preach, then Christianity has to be implicated based what its most radical fundamentalists preach. Can't have it both ways.

chuks
15th Jun 2016, 05:36
Ah! My mistake, M. le Box. I was going by your obvious rudeness and your stated location so that I took you for French. So it is le stupidité, not le francité that is ton problème.

Please accept my apologies.

seen_the_box
15th Jun 2016, 05:39
Fair's fair. If you are going to implicate Islam based what its most radical fundamentalists preach, then Christianity has to be implicated based what its most radical fundamentalists preach. Can't have it both ways.

I'm no friend of Christianity. However, the nutcase you quoted is an outlier, and I'm sure his views are anathema to most Christians. However, most 'moderate' Muslims would agree wholeheartedly with his comments, and it is that which makes them extraordinarily dangerous.

seen_the_box
15th Jun 2016, 05:42
Ah! My mistake, M. le Box. I was going by your obvious rudeness and your stated location so that I took you for French. So it is le stupidité, not le francité that is ton problème.

Nothing rude about it. I detest your country, like many Europeans. I detest your duplicity and your hypocrisy. I despair at the way you are quite happy to accept a ludicrously high firearms related death rate, in the name of 'civil liberties'. I am, however, looking forward to watching from afar when you elect President Trump.

LTNman
15th Jun 2016, 05:44
All that matters to too many American's is the right to carry arms and it is a price worth paying no matter how many of their fellow citizens die.

The rest of the world looks on and thinks Stupid Americans.

Nemrytter
15th Jun 2016, 07:36
All that matters to too many American's is the right to carry arms and it is a price worth paying no matter how many of their fellow citizens die.
The rest of the world looks on and thinks Stupid Americans.This is exactly how I see it. If Americans want to put up with gun massacres then that's up to them. Just like it's up to the rest of us to see how unbelievably dumb it all is.

pattern_is_full
15th Jun 2016, 08:16
Lenin's philosophy: "The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them."

Deng Xiaoping's philosophy: "We will sell the capitalists the rope with which we will hang them."

ISIS's philosophy: "The Americans will sell us the guns with which we will kill them."

ORAC
15th Jun 2016, 08:55
Lenin and soviet communism is gone.

Mao, Deng and Chinese communism is gone.

ISIS is going.

Darwin in action....

nI-v4o2HKkQ

pattern_is_full
15th Jun 2016, 09:01
Chinese communism is gone.

- Mmm, that ranks up there with Gerald Ford's 1976 avowal that "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe!"

But we digress....

ORAC
15th Jun 2016, 09:06
Lots of Chinese, millions of capitalists, not many communists. As one historian said, "we are all Americans now"...

How China went from communist to capitalist - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-went-from-communist-to-capitalist-2015-10?IR=T)

vapilot2004
15th Jun 2016, 09:30
All that matters to too many American's is the right to carry arms and it is a price worth paying no matter how many of their fellow citizens die.

The rest of the world looks on and thinks Stupid Americans.

Not all Americans are stupid (at least when it comes to gun control).

When asked if they support or oppose stricter gun laws, 80% of Republicans opposed while nearly the same percentage of Democrats supported such laws.

Republicans believe (75%) more guns = safer America while only 12% of Democrats believe the same. Background checks are nearly universally supported by all.

In another poll, over 3/4 of all (DEM, GOP, IND) respondents opposed terrorists having access to guns. :p

Every time there is a mass shooting, there are those in the government that want to talk about legislation to address assault weapons and enact better gun control. Every time, the NRA and the GOP party members shout them down and the talking stops.

Meanwhile, the American public's sentiment on an assault weapons ban has been moving in the wrong direction:

http://i64.tinypic.com/do28m9.png

The peak in 1994 coincides with Clinton and Congress passing an assault weapons ban. The law was chickenshit in several ways - Congress split hairs on makes and models and weapon styles. It also included a sunset provision - something that was required by the gun lobby and more than a few GOP Congressmen in order to pass. The ban had its genesis in the 1989 shooting of 37 children (5 died) and their teacher in California by a deranged gunman wielding an AK-47.

RogueRivered
15th Jun 2016, 10:41
The ban had its genesis in the 1989 killing of 33 children and their teacher in California by a deranged gunman wielding an AK-47.

Well, close, I guess. Actually, it was 5 killed and 32 injured, by another mentally disturbed person who couldn't get the help he needed, which is what most of these shootings have in common.

vapilot2004
15th Jun 2016, 10:53
Thank you RR.

Quote from article conclusion on Mental Illness and Guns from the NIH:

Our brief review suggests that connections between mental illness and gun violence are less causal and more complex than current US public opinion and legislative action allow. US gun rights advocates are fond of the phrase “guns don’t kill people, people do.” The findings cited earlier in this article suggest that neither guns nor people exist in isolation from social or historical influences. A growing body of data reveals that US gun crime happens when guns and people come together in particular, destructive ways. That is to say, gun violence in all its forms has a social context, and that context is not something that “mental illness” can describe nor that mental health practitioners can be expected to address in isolation.

PDR1
15th Jun 2016, 11:58
The article neatly hedges on the issue of whether gun-fetishism it itself a type of mental illness, of course.

PDR

chuks
15th Jun 2016, 12:59
Fetishisms generally are put in the category of "paraphiliae," what a layman might call "kinks" rather than full-blown insanity.

One man might need to wear his string-back gloves, to have his LP of "Sounds of Silverstone 1955" playing, and a pan of Castrol R simmering on the hob, in order to achieve tumescence, where another might merely need his .40-caliber Glock with the high-capacity magazine loaded with rounds with Black Talon bullets. Both would be considered fetishists, when neither could be thought of as completely insane.

Lonewolf_50
15th Jun 2016, 13:02
The article neatly hedges on the issue of whether gun-fetishism it itself a type of mental illness, of course. PDR
Please explain what you mean by "gun fetishism" and why you chose to couch it in those terms. Thanks in advance.

Lonewolf_50
15th Jun 2016, 13:04
I detest your country, like many Europeans. I detest your duplicity and your hypocrisy. Pot, meet kettle. Almost makes one regret our providing adult supervision to your two continental exercises in mutual homicide, a "civilized" European habit for about 16 centuries.

West Coast
15th Jun 2016, 13:06
Republicans believe (75%) more guns = safer America while only 12% of Democrats believe the same. Background checks are nearly universally supported by all.

Yet it appears it's the Democrats doing the shooting. If we could only keep the guns out of their hands. When the next set of Islamic extremists shoots up a French cafe, will you speak of gun control in an attempt to move the conversation away from the unpleasantness of radical Islamic terrorism?


Anyway, back to the Islamic terrorist act in Orlando...

PukinDog
15th Jun 2016, 13:12
chuks
Well, Pukin' Dog, you might want to read up a bit on what can make up "fundamentalism," just for fun.

When the term's conventionally applied to Christianity it may include such things as holding the King James Bible, all of it, to be both inerrant and the literal Word of God. That can mean rejecting any nuanced readings, so that the "sword" is just that, a sword.

I can tell you that I preferred the Muslims of the Algerian desert to the Christians of the hills of Virginia for company. It would be an interesting thing to see you try to tell those good old boys that they are getting it wrong, the way they interpret their King James Bible. One might toss you a rattlesnake then, one of their ways of getting closer to God.

chuks, why is it you tell me to read and yet you still haven't pointed me towards any of Jesus' teachings that dictate/commands his followers to commit violent acts? Surely someone as well read as you can do that if they exist. I'm asking because there are plenty of explicit, violent directives and justifications for violence issued by Mohammed the warlord himself to his followers. Now I want to be educated on Jesus the Warlord. You may consider the fundamental teachings of these two prophet-figures to be equally ambiguous or open to interpretation on matters of violence, but please provide some objective proof besides merely your personal comfort level re some King James Bible-totin' Virginia junior varsity-level hillbillies that it's so.

Also, please point me to words of Jesus that instruct his followers to overthrow governments and set up Christian ones complete with a legal system based on his teachings. I'm asking because Islam and Mohammed's directives does do this. Doing so takes fundamental Islam from the level being merely a personal-belief system of worship (what one normally thinks of as a "religion" in the West), to being a full-on, political ideology that's in direct conflict with the American legal directive contained in the 1st Amendment that government cannot establish a State religion.

I'm just asking because after spending a number of years living in the Kingdom and spending too much of my life in the ME and N Africa where things like heresy, blasphemy, witchcraft, and apostasy are legally punishable crimes under Islamic-based legal systems, even by death in some places, it provides some context to draw on when developing opinions on an expansion-through-domination and strict control political ideology masquerading as a "religion" that every Muslim can read all about the violence for himself vs what happened to the political side of European/Catholic Christendom once the Bible and words of Jesus were translated from something virtually nobody could read even if they came across a copy into something they could for themselves and gradually became available to do so.

The Reformation wouldn't have been possible without the contradiction between what the political and societal control types enjoying cover of the Catholic Church as it existed then for hundreds of years vs. what had been written as the teachings of Jesus been revealed to the masses.

On the other hand, there will never be a similar style Reformation of Islam that discards the pursuit of political/legal/domination by force (government) because that aspect is intrinsic, written in the original word. No twisting or misinterpreting necessary, it's a stated goal. There's a reason that most "revolutions" in the Islamic world don't seek to liberalise and those that do meet so many waves of fundamentalist resistance from young, fighting age men drawn from everywhere in the Muslim world. The edicts and justifications for violence from their prophet suddenly still apply, and "god" is under attack. Go fight and kill and enjoy the rewards, bigger ones if you die doing so.

The last time mobs of Christians in any significant number believed that Jesus wanted them to go kill unbelievers for him under a banner of a cross, 99.99% of them couldn't even read what he actually taught, having to rely on those who could supposedly read, and read Greek or Latin. When was the last time a revolution in what was formerly political Christendom come about and establish a throwback, religious government based on the teaching of Jesus? Did that ever happen? It happens all the time in the Islamic world, this reversion to the religious/political/legal fundamentals laid out in the Koran. It's the normal course of events. Liberalise, secularise, or appear to be cozying up to non-believers in the Muslim world, and it's guaranteed there will be an armed struggle and those doing the attacking will be Islamic fundamentalists quoting Mohammed's exact, explicit words.

Where is the parallel in the words of Jesus that says killing others, government control, and a judicial system based on what he says are good things?

As for snakes, if someone tosses me an Eastern-variety rattler I'll just deal with it the same way I have with the W diamondbacks or copperheads that also could've been a nuisance; shoot it.

And while you may find such things interesting, I don't involve myself in chickenshit debates with tiny numbers of isolationist, self-segregated snake-handlers or try to impose upon them my own personal beliefs when they're minding their own business (btw, you're far more likely to find them in WV, KY, or NC rather than VA). KJ Bible-thumpers I consider to be no different than fanatical neo-Druids worshiping rocks and trees while preaching about Environmental Doomsday and hatred of those who drive SUVs, or dog-lovers who would spend money on designer Puppy Chow and pet psychologists before they would feed a starving child even if they emerged from their dogs-are-better-than-people world long enough to stumble over one and notice. Life is full of assorted weirdos and freaks who latch onto things with a fervour that nobody talks about being a "religion", but it is.

Take this thread for instance. Once again, the "America sucks" zealots are out in force. They feel better about themselves, believing theirs is the one True Path and begin the preaching to the "unenlightened" even while knowing they aren't going to win any converts, so it's more for establishing their own sanctity in front of their own choir than actually trying to persuade one of anything. Anti-Americanism provides for some the same sort of personal security blanket organized religion does for others. I don't believe for one instant that those expressing the most "horror" by these murders actually care one iota for those who died except for use as a springboard to leap up onto their political soapbox.

Lonewolf_50
15th Jun 2016, 13:17
Once again, the "America sucks" zealots are out in force. They feel better about themselves, believing theirs is the one True Path and begin the preaching to the "unenlightened" even while knowing they aren't going to win any converts, so it's more for establishing their own sanctity in front of their own choir than actually trying to persuade one of anything. Anti-Americanism provides for some the same sort of personal security blanket organized religion does for others. I don't believe for one instant that those expressing the most "horror" by these murders actually care one iota for those who died except for use as a springboard to leap up onto their political soapbox.
Once again, PukinDog gets an OK Three Wire.

West Coast
15th Jun 2016, 13:23
PD

It's good to have you back.

candoo
15th Jun 2016, 13:24
Mental health is undoubtedly an issue in many of these tragic events. I believe psychopaths, serial killers, religious fanatics and the like crave the notoriety and fame which is guaranteed them in today’s global media network. The growth in their audience has increased exponentially with the internet and other telecommunication devices and their 15 minutes of fame now stretches to weeks analysed in every tiny detail and is truly global - a narcissists wet dream.

Discrimination of all forms is a perfect normalisation of atrocities, we can cope if we can blame ISIS, Christians, Catholics, the French, Scousers etc…….. rather than look at ourselves.

The human race will only be on this planet for a tiny percentile of the Earth’s lifetime as we are so good at destroying each other, glorifying it and making it part and parcel of our acceptance of the way life is.

West Coast
15th Jun 2016, 13:33
Discrimination of all forms is a perfect normalisation of atrocities, we can cope if we can blame ISIS, Christians, Catholics, the French, Scousers etc…….. rather than look at ourselves.

So I'm to blame as I didn't look inward?

megan
15th Jun 2016, 14:08
As I asked Megan, how do you explain the regular mass killings carried out by non Arabs?

Small point....Afghans are not 'Arabs'. I suspect Megan is another who considers all Arabs to be Muslim?Well, you suspect wrong. Killings by non Arabs? Again mentally disturbed in the most part, just a broad guess. I put the question out there, because it's just a supposition, don't claim it as "fact". Indonesia is the world largest Muslim country, how many Arabs? Very few I would suggest.

candoo
15th Jun 2016, 14:14
WC

Collectively, but it will never happen

Geordie_Expat
15th Jun 2016, 14:16
Pot, meet kettle. Almost makes one regret our providing adult supervision to your two continental exercises in mutual homicide, a "civilized" European habit for about 16 centuries.



I have always thought of your posts to be intelligent and considered; please don't descend to the level of the clown you are replying to.

fitliker
15th Jun 2016, 16:12
When the slaughter was on the highways and roads .Everyone worked together to improve road safety.
Sadly ,the roads still kill more people than guns in America .On average over 34,000 people die on the roads .


Any talk about banning cars or private ungoverned trucks ?
Professional truck drivers are subject to driving engine governed trucks , strict duty times and drug tests. The average 4x4 truck that is capable of speeds that most sports cars in the sixties would be proud of. Those vehicles bully their way down the highways . Try to do the speed limit and the chances are that the truck you see two feet off your bumper in the rear view mirror is driven by some meth addict on his way for a fix .
These death trucks should have their engines Governed and restricted to the same speeds as commercial trucks.
Drop the speed limits in high accident areas. Increase fines for those who break the speed limits. Make all speeding federal offences and seize vehicles of repeat offenders.


People who do not care about other road users should be limited to driving mopeds. Then they can only hurt themselves.


Meanwhile in Gun free zones like Chicago the carnage continues ,over twelve hundred shot so far this year.
There are politician from the race political industry who will never speak out against those who are doing the killing .Hint the biggest killers in Chicago are not girl guides or boy scouts.

Lonewolf_50
15th Jun 2016, 16:20
I have always thought of your posts to be intelligent and considered; please don't descend to the level of the clown you are replying to.
A fair request, in a thread that has sadly rolled downhill ... mea culpa for any part I played in that.

West Coast
15th Jun 2016, 17:54
Discrimination of all forms is a perfect normalisation of atrocities, we can cope if we can blame ISIS, Christians, Catholics, the French, Scousers etc…….. rather than look at ourselves.

Sorry, have a hard time latching on to that as any realistic pathway forward. I don't care how much you, me and the rest of society understands the likes of an ISIS terrorist, they are are going to continue down the same path of destruction. You're welcome to saddle my portion of any blame you presume I owe.

candoo
15th Jun 2016, 19:28
Sorry, have a hard time latching on to that as any realistic pathway forward. I don't care how much you, me and the rest of society understands the likes of an ISIS terrorist, they are are going to continue down the same path of destruction. You're welcome to saddle my portion of any blame you presume I owe.

My intention was not to excuse the inexcusable, apportion or deflect blame - yes there are those who will “continue down the same path of destruction”. I cannot find any empathy for those that do, I still believe that anyone looking down on this planet would be bewildered by the way we treat each other regardless of affiliation. I cannot see the current era of human development (lets say stone age to present) being perceived as anything other than tragic by future, hopefully more enlightened, historians.

Now then back to my mindfulness, it costs nothing and makes me feel good cos I'm a huggy fluffy.

connoisseur
15th Jun 2016, 19:41
so today a tv film cameraman walks into a gun shop in Orlando with his out of state driving licence and 15 minutes later walks out with an AR 15 long gun inc. a 30 bullet capacity magazine.....

Just saying...............eek

seen_the_box
15th Jun 2016, 19:46
Pot, meet kettle. Almost makes one regret our providing adult supervision to your two continental exercises in mutual homicide, a "civilized" European habit for about 16 centuries.

Funnily enough, we have grown up and moved on. Maybe the same will happen eventually to your country. Might be worth brushing up on your history if you think that the two conflicts in question were limited to continental Europe. I'm pretty sure that your country had a bit of a ding dong in Asia at the same time.

I consider myself lucky to live on a civilised continent, where we don't equip our kids and mental patients with automatic weapons. You have mass shootings so often that they're often not even news, and yet you still demand your right to carry military grade weapons. The only logical conclusion to draw is that the (not so) occasional mass killing of innocent people, including kids, is less important to you than your right to carry a weapon. That is pretty much incomprehensible to someone living in the civilised world.

We will continue to watch in bewilderment from afar.

By the way...some light reading on the subject of firearms deaths... (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/upshot/compare-these-gun-death-rates-the-us-is-in-a-different-world.html?_r=0)

chuks
15th Jun 2016, 20:12
M. le Box, consider yourself lucky that you on your civilized continent did not decide to visit the Bataclan theatre in Paris on a certain evening last November.

The only logical conclusion to draw from your sniping here is that the occasional mass killing of innocent people, including kids, is less important to you than our right to carry a weapon.

We will continue to watch from afar, eating our freedom fries and watching that old Simpsons re-run, the one with the line, "Bonjoooouuurrr, ya cheese-eatin' surrender monkeys!" delivered by Groundskeeper Willie.

West Coast
15th Jun 2016, 20:37
I consider myself lucky to live on a civilised continent

Two world wars says otherwise. If you want to say that was ancient history, then look back to the 90s and ethnic cleansing. Still too far back? Look at recent terrorism attacks in France, the UK, Spain, Belguim and elsewhere. Look at Eastern Europe and find that abundance of civility you speak of. The pieces of the puzzle for the next big dust up are being laid in the former Soviet client states. I'm sure you and Vlad disagree however.

We certainly have our warts. I acknowledge them. Shame you can't see to do the same, the myopia thing is fooling yourself and no one else. Mayhem is only going to become more prevelant on your civilized continent, might want to keep an eye on your six rather than pointing beyond your borders at others.

Chesty Morgan
15th Jun 2016, 21:09
Two world wars somehow imply one continent isn't civilised?

tdracer
15th Jun 2016, 21:51
I consider myself lucky to live on a civilised continent, where we don't equip our kids and mental patients with automatic weapons.


While automatic weapons are not technically illegal in the US, they are in fact very strictly controlled and the purchase of such requires a specific license issued by the US Government. Despite what you may have seen in the movies, or read in the largely ignorant press, criminal activity involving the use of automatic weapons in the US is exceedingly rare. Interestingly, I'm told a large percentage of the automatic weapons sold in the US are purchased along the gulf coast by owners and operators of luxury yachts looking for protection from drug running pirates operating in and around the Gulf of Mexico.

I also noticed how no one has answered my previous question of how gun control would have prevented someone who had access to firearms at his job from obtaining a firearm...:rolleyes:

Seldomfitforpurpose
15th Jun 2016, 22:29
I also noticed how no one has answered my previous question of how gun control would have prevented someone who had access to firearms at his job from obtaining a firearm...:rolleyes:

I spent 38 years and 5 months in the UK military which was a job where I had access to guns.

Because of our UK GUN CONTROL laws the only thing I could have accessed outside work for the majority of those 38 and a bit years was a shotgun, but only then having passed no end of suitability checks :ok:

tdracer
15th Jun 2016, 22:32
I spent 38 years and 5 months in the UK military which was a job where I had access to guns.

Because of our UK GUN CONTROL laws the only thing I could have accessed outside work for the majority of those 38 and a bit years was a shotgun, but only then having passed no end of suitability checks :ok:


So, if you were criminally minded, you couldn't figure out a way to steal a few of those semi-auto pistols that you were carrying around?
You see, one thing I've consistently noticed about criminals that they are not overly concerned about doing something that's prohibited by law. :ugh:

vapilot2004
15th Jun 2016, 22:48
Yet it appears it's the Democrats doing the shooting. If we could only keep the guns out of their hands. When the next set of Islamic extremists shoots up a French cafe, will you speak of gun control in an attempt to move the conversation away from the unpleasantness of radical Islamic terrorism?


Anyway, back to the Islamic terrorist act in Orlando...

Funny! I'm bettin' none of the recent mass shooters were registered with either party. :p

We may be in agreement on gun control's limitations WC, but for different reasons. As the world has shown us, smart gun control laws work best in mature, civilised societies. American society is not quite there yet. We are a bunch of trigger-happy, murderous bastards. If we stopped selling guns today, there still remains enough firepower and ammo to kill every man, woman, and child - likely several times over. We are paying for mistakes of the past.

Your point on domestic 'terrorism' - WC, it appears that the proverbial gun-totin' chickens have indeed come home to roost. Radical Islam may turn out to be a minor factor in Orlando - details are emerging showing the shooter to possibly have been a self-hating homophobe. His propensity towards drinking, gay clubs and gay dating apps is at odds with our understanding of a typical follower of Islam, radical or not.

With the easy availability of assault style weapons, we may be seeing more rather than less of individual, homegrown terrorism in the near future - thus here come them chickens.

vapilot2004
15th Jun 2016, 23:11
The article neatly hedges on the issue of whether gun-fetishism it itself a type of mental illness, of course.


The article was written by those interested in public mental health and is focused on a few larger issues.

When a mass shooting occurs, the first thought is, my god, the shooter must surely be nuts to do what they did. Questions arise, and psychologists don't always have satisfying answers. What the researchers are saying is there is an unholy combination of temporary madness, easy access to assault-style weapons, and societal factors that is uniquely American in nature. The shooters are not always identifiably unstable prior to their murderous acts.

Gun fetishism in America: Going back to my response to West Coast, we need to address the gun culture in the US. It is a plague upon American civilised society but guns don't have to be as evidenced by the Swiss. We need more education and open conversation - fostering respect for others and respect for the power of firearms. The NRA's roots go back to marksmanship and gun safety - perhaps they should consider revisiting those roots and leave the politics alone.

Since our streets and homes are already awash with hundreds of millions of firearms, the safe and sane road forward will not just be through passing more restrictive gun laws, but in changing gun culture in America.

Some intelligent reading on American Gun Culture and our history:
America As A Gun Culture | American History Lives at American Heritage (http://www.americanheritage.com/content/america-gun-culture?page=show)

tdracer
15th Jun 2016, 23:19
Funny! I'm bettin' none of the recent mass shooters were registered with either party. http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif


It's been widely reported that the Orlando shooter was a registered Democrat

vapilot2004
15th Jun 2016, 23:43
It's been widely reported that the Orlando shooter was a registered Democrat

Well, I lost that bet, TD. Can we not tell West Coast? There may be some evidence to show his political leanings have changed ever so slightly since registering. :p

In all seriousness, Muslim Americans are 70% Democrat. Makes sense, since the party of choice of those wanting to mass-bomb Muslims back to the stone age seems to be mainly Republican.

Flying Binghi
16th Jun 2016, 00:08
via vapilot2004:
...we need to address the gun culture in the U.S...

Hmmm... In the U.S. the 'gun culture' came about because there were some who wanted to be free of tyranny. The first world war was finnished thanks to the American 'gun culture', WW2 was won only because of the 'gun culture' of America. The communist expansion were stopped by the American 'gun culture' (unforetunatly the American democrats made a fiasco of a war that was basicly finnished in Vietnam)

Why is it that the 'gun cultre' of America is always coming to the rescue of 'civilised' society's like the Swiss... when was the last time the Swiss did anything for anybody but them selves...:hmm:

vapilot2004, your just trying to run and hide from the fact that the thread subject killing was done by an islamic adherent..:hmm:

Read inspire magazine. Terrorists are not tool fixated. They will use petrol, vehicles, knives, piosen, bombs, etc, etc, to wage their islamic war.





.

vapilot2004
16th Jun 2016, 00:20
Binghi, try reading that article I linked in the post from which you grabbed my quote if you have the time and inclination. Written in 1970, it is highly useful in understanding not only America's fascination with guns, but how we got to where we are today, some 4 decades later.

"Gun culture" was not what won the War. Men, machines, and determination did. "Gun culture" is a term of societal study, generally American society.

"Freedom from tyranny" - true maybe a century or two ago, but today's military can kick anyone's asses they have unfettered permission to do so.

Agreed on the Swiss, yet they have indeed figured out how to own guns but not kill each other at every turn. The issue we face is cultural.

Terrorism and weapons access - If little Johnny likes to play with matches, and there is a barn full of hay and gasoline in his backyard, doesn't it make sense to at least lock up the gasoline and limit his access to matches? That response may not remove the threat completely, but at least we're heading in the right direction, yes?

SASless
16th Jun 2016, 01:49
All a barn full of hay needs is one match to have a Barn Burner of a Fire.

We lost almost three thousand people, four Airliners, two Skyscrapers, and a fifth of the Pentagon to a bunch of Suicidal Zealots with Box Cutters.

The FBI and CIA did not effectively share the intelligence they had about the Bombers and if they had....the plot may have been unraveled.

The FBI had been aware of the folks in Boston, San Bernardino, and in Orlando....and we see how that all worked out.

There are are lot of ways to prevent Little Johnny from burning down the neighbor's barn besides Locking up all the gas cans in the neighborhood.

Seeking out all the Little Johnnies who like to play with matches and finding effective ways to cure that desire makes far more sense than requiring the Farmers to give up mechanized equipment and the fuel sources for them.

Norman Deplume
16th Jun 2016, 02:08
Makes sense, since the party of choice of those wanting to mass-bomb Muslims back to the stone age seems to be mainly Republican.Are you for real? There are many of the above that already live in the stone age. They love it there. See you in Saudi for an 18-30's booze cruise. Oh wait.....let me think that through.

Can we stop picking on our American cousins and their gun laws and get back to the point: Some deluded feckwits believe in fairies etc...If you don't believe in their fairies then they think you deserve to die. That is the point. Or have I missed something?

If they hate a civilised way of life, then why don't they go back to...........oh wait, let me think that through.....

galaxy flyer
16th Jun 2016, 02:49
VAPILOT,

Agreed on the Swiss, yet they have indeed figured out how to own guns but not kill each other at every turn. The issue we face is cultural..

And a small sub-culture of the US populace at that--inner city, mostly. 6% of the US population account for over half of the murders.

GF

chuks
16th Jun 2016, 03:36
I must have got a bit lost ....

As to religion, Pukin' Dog has me stumped when it comes to finding much blood-thirsty stuff in the New Testament.

That Jesus, what a wimp! "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5:39 KJV. What's the point of bringing a sword to the party if you don't plan to use it?

How about this instead? "So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall." I Samuel 25:22 KJV. (I don't quite know what it means, but it reads as if a few people are going to be having pee brought down upon them overnight, brought down upon them somewhat in the manner of that Bible-spouting gunman Jules in "Pulp Fiction.")

There's plenty more just like that in the Old Testament of course, which does play a large part in the Christian fundamentalist body of belief, but trying to account for the somewhat blood-soaked quality of what's know as Christian fundamentalist belief just going by what Jesus supposedly said ... nope.

I got all excited when I found "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," given that Pukin' Dog had brought that sort of thing up as a flaw of Islam, but that turned out to be Exodus 22:18 KJV, so that it's nothing much to do with fundamentalist Christianity except for the way that it's supposed to be the literal Word of God, to be acted upon as such.

You win this one, Pukin' Dog. Trying to blame the often murderous nature of fundamentalist Christian belief on Jesus is sort of like trying to pin the Holocaust on Hitler given the obvious lack of any direct orders signed by der Führer telling his followers to kill all those Jews.

On the other hand, do have a look at the map to see how close Richlands, Virginia is to all those states you mentioned as home to the hillbillies. The ones I met there were not JV; they looked as if they'd stepped right out of "Deliverance," some of them!

West Coast
16th Jun 2016, 05:17
Well, I lost that bet, TD. Can we not tell West Coast? There may be some evidence to show his political leanings have changed ever so slightly since registering

VAPA

If I had your real name, with a few lucky guesses as to where you lived, I could find out your political affiliation. While I admit I let others do it in the case of the shooter, knowing how easy it is, I'm reasonably sure he was a card carrying Democrat.

West Coast
16th Jun 2016, 05:23
SFFP, fixed it for you. You're welcome.

Because of our UK GUN CONTROL laws the only thing I could have accessed legally outside work for the majority of those 38 and a bit years was a shotgun, but only then having passed no end of suitability checks

Naive if you think you couldn't have picked up a nice Smith and Wesson if you had tried.

vapilot2004
16th Jun 2016, 06:19
VAPILOT,

.

And a small sub-culture of the US populace at that--inner city, mostly. 6% of the US population account for over half of the murders.

GF

Understand. Cannot argue with facts, GF. An expansion on that:

"The FBI cautions against using its statistics to rank cities, and it can be unfair to compare compact, aging Northern cities with their sprawling counterparts in the South and Southwest. Detroit, for example, contains only 143 square miles, compared with more than 500 for Houston and Los Angeles. Bigger cities are more likely to include more prosperous neighborhoods where the crime rate is a fraction of inner-city areas with a high percentage of impoverished minority residents."

Poor folks' well-being aside, we're also concerned about mass shootings, yes?


If I had your real name, with a few lucky guesses as to where you lived, I could find out your political affiliation. While I admit I let others do it in the case of the shooter, knowing how easy it is, I'm reasonably sure he was a card carrying Democrat.

West Coast - Just to be clear, I was referring to the shooter. FYI: We used to live close to the colonial capitol, now it's not far from a different colonial capital.

vapilot2004
16th Jun 2016, 06:32
We lost almost three thousand people, four Airliners, two Skyscrapers, and a fifth of the Pentagon to a bunch of Suicidal Zealots with Box Cutters.

The government took steps in hopes of preventing a future such attack. As much as we may disagree with some of the rigamarole, so far, it was 'worked'.
My question is, why not do the same when it comes to high-magazine capacity, hi-power, semi-automatic weapons?


There are are lot of ways to prevent Little Johnny from burning down the neighbor's barn besides Locking up all the gas cans in the neighborhood.


That's the typical response from the gun lobby - going from A to Q when we're only interested in trying A to C. Ban was not my meaning - control was. Apologies if that was not clear.


Seeking out all the Little Johnnies who like to play with matches and finding effective ways to cure that desire

Excellent SAS! People of good conscience are trying.

Can we stop picking on our American cousins and their gun laws and get back to the point: Some deluded feckwits believe in fairies etc...If you don't believe in their fairies then they think you deserve to die. That is the point. Or have I missed something?

Norman, I agree with your characterization of some Muslim countries. Too bad we're in a trading relationship with most of them thanks to the black gooey stuff.

The deluded feckwits are everywhere and not all of them believe in organized fairy worship - some are just plain nuts. ;) So why not make it a little harder for them to attack us? A lock can be bypassed by even a small-time criminal, yet we still lock our doors.

obgraham
16th Jun 2016, 06:43
Chuks, surely you realize by now that ALL JB threads dealing with anything in the USA, are required by the ROE to degenerate to gunphobic rants.

vapilot2004
16th Jun 2016, 07:04
Chuks, surely you realize by now that ALL JB threads dealing with mass shootings in the USA, are required by the ROE to foster intelligent, open conversation on guns - sans emotional rants.


Fix 'er for ya, OBG.

bcgallacher
16th Jun 2016, 09:24
Billions are being spent in the USA in anti - Muslim terrorist efforts,in the last ten years more people in the USA have been shot dead by toddlers with access to loaded guns than killed by terrorists. It defies logic.

Ogre
16th Jun 2016, 11:26
Just a suggestion mind, but how about letting people keep all the guns they have....

Just outlaw the selling of ammunition. Then all the guns in the world are just fancy looking clubs.

Just saying....

vapilot2004
16th Jun 2016, 12:34
VZrFVtmRXrw

Lonewolf_50
16th Jun 2016, 13:37
Billions are being spent in the USA in anti - Muslim terrorist efforts,in the last ten years more people in the USA have been shot dead by toddlers with access to loaded guns than killed by terrorists. It defies logic. As does your post, nice non sequitur.

VH-UFO
16th Jun 2016, 15:09
Originally posted by Pukin Dog; I don't believe for one instant that those expressing the most "horror" by these murders actually care one iota for those who died......

And I don't believe for one moment that a nation who has 20 children killed between the ages of 6 and 7 at Sandy Hook gives one iota either, when they do diddly squat to change their gun laws after that.

Hypocrite.

SASless
16th Jun 2016, 18:05
VH....you forget....we as a Nation considered that...and made our Decision.

That you do not agree with the outcome is on you.

We considered all the options and variables and arrived at an informed result...it was not the Gun that was responsible for the killings....but that the Human Being was.

We agreed to take measures to focus on the very few who do these awful deeds and not go after the innocent law abiding folks....with the exception of a few States that controlled by Liberals and Progressives.

Oddly enough those same States seem to lead the Nation in Crime, Murders, and failed governments.

A simple example....Chicago, Illinois.

Both the City and the State are known for corruption.

Chicago has more Murders than per Year than our Military loses in combat most Years.

When the Liberals call for more Gun Control...why do they not hold up Chicago as their Role Model....after all it has the most strict Gun Laws in the Nation.

mickjoebill
16th Jun 2016, 18:11
The deluded feckwits are everywhere and not all of them believe in organized fairy worship - some are just plain nuts. So why not make it a little harder for them to attack us?

Agree.
Tommy Mair, man who murdered the U.K. MP Jo Cox a few hours ago had a history of mental illness.

He fired two shots then repeatedly stabbed her. After, he stabbed a bystander who stepped in to stop him.

What would he have done if he had something more deadly than (what it appears) was a sawn off shotgun?
Whilst he was probably unhinged, it seems the attack was also politically motivated, to do with Britain exiting Europe.

Fortunately the UK gun laws make it all but impossible to buy assault rifles or machine pistols.

A sad day, Britain has lost a true humanitarian.

Mickjoebill

SASless
16th Jun 2016, 18:14
VA,


A lock can be bypassed by even a small-time criminal, yet we still lock our doors.


Yes I do....but it is not for my protection....it is for the Perp who wants to enter my House uninvited with the intent to do harm...theft or worse.

That is when said Perp shall get a very brief education about the Meaning of the Second Amendment...possibly the last lesson they shall learn.

When the Government can PROVE to me that there will never be a Criminal Act against any person, anywhere, at anytime...ever.....I will gladly turn in my Guns.

Of course we have to consider the situation where the Criminal has a Knife, Dirk, Dagger, Hatchet, Tomahawk, Axe or Pike....what do we defend ourselves with then ?

chuks
16th Jun 2016, 18:16
VH-UFO, try writing " ... 20 children aged between six and seven killed at Sandy Hook ... " instead. It makes more sense.

You might want to read up on our Second Amendment, and why it makes changing our gun laws rather difficult. Then there's the extremist stance of the well-funded current NRA, and, yes, a sort of national love affair with guns, since they are promoted to a central role in our national development, a role they did not actually play in our history. Even 20 dead children is not enough to push through significant change in US gun laws in the face of all this.

What sort of changes to their gun laws did Norway put in place after that massacre of young people in 2011? Did they ban the sort of weapons that Anders Breivik used then?

I assume so, since they are rational Europeans, not gun-crazed Yanks. Please tell us what the Norwegians did, so that we might profit from their example.

PDR1
16th Jun 2016, 18:18
Indeed - the terror of the drive-by knifing...

PDR

mickjoebill
16th Jun 2016, 18:23
Indeed - the terror of the drive-by knifing...
PDR

And the horror of mass knifings.
You have a chance to outrun a knife.....

Mickjoebill

SASless
16th Jun 2016, 18:49
USA TODAY | BEHIND THE BLOODSHED: THE UNTOLD STORY OF AMERICA?S MASS KILLINGS (http://www.gannett-cdn.com/GDContent/mass-killings/index.html#explore)

If you are an advocate of changing America's Gun Laws based upon news articles and Talking Point Memo's....take a minute to consider the information in this Presentation.

If you have an Open Mind....lots of questions will be begged as to why we continue to have the contributing factors to Mass Killings (Four Dear...or more).

Your definition of "Mass Killing" will be altered as you will find it is rarely incidents like the Night Club Attack in Orlando....it more likely will be Family Members or Known Associates who are the Victims.

You will also find that it is handguns and shotguns that are used primarily.

"Assault Weapons" are among the least used...by a great percentage.

But...that is Data compiled by US Law Enforcement, the FBI, and the Publisher who did the Research.

Chesty Morgan
16th Jun 2016, 18:55
VH....you forget....we as a Nation considered that...and made our Decision.

That you do not agree with the outcome is on you.

We considered all the options and variables and arrived at an informed result...it was not the Gun that was responsible for the killings....but that the Human Being was.

We agreed to take measures to focus on the very few who do these awful deeds and not go after the innocent law abiding folks....with the exception of a few States that controlled by Liberals and Progressives.

Oddly enough those same States seem to lead the Nation in Crime, Murders, and failed governments.

A simple example....Chicago, Illinois.

Both the City and the State are known for corruption.

Chicago has more Murders than per Year than our Military loses in combat most Years.

When the Liberals call for more Gun Control...why do they not hold up Chicago as their Role Model....after all it has the most strict Gun Laws in the Nation.

Oh, the 2nd amendment considered multiple mass shootings including kids in schools. Clever lot those time traveling fathers no?

VH-UFO
16th Jun 2016, 19:19
chuks,

As for the grammar, you knew what i meant. But if you must belittle to elevate yourself, go for it.

One phrase mentioned in your post pretty much sums it up really; "...a sort of national love affair with guns..."

No not a sort of, A national love affair with guns. That pretty much sums it up nicely, thank you for that and really is the truth behind it all.

Which leads into the second point, the Second Amendment. Difficult but not impossible, yes?

So keep using that Second Amendment drivel as an excuse so you don't feel ashamed from the slaughter of 6 and 7 year olds because of your national, sorry, sort of national love affair with guns.

Good day.

Cows getting bigger
16th Jun 2016, 19:27
One presumes the various Amendments exist because the original Constitution was viewed as being flawed or in need of........... amendment?

bcgallacher
16th Jun 2016, 19:33
Lonewolf 50 l note that you do not appear to disagree with my statistics - more Americans have been shot dead by children than killed by terrorists in the last ten years yet virtually nothing has been done to at least reduce the number.

chuks
16th Jun 2016, 19:43
VH-UFO, if you want to talk down to someone, at least get your grammar straight! Being condescended to ... okay, sort of. Being condescended to by a muppet ... pretty much not okay. Okay?

Anyone else ready to tell us ignorant Yanks what Norway did with their gun laws, post-Breivik? I am sure that there must be a powerful lesson in that.

Lonewolf_50
16th Jun 2016, 20:08
Lonewolf 50 l note that you do not appear to disagree with my statistics - more Americans have been shot dead by children than killed by terrorists in the last ten years yet virtually nothing has been done to at least reduce the number.
Since you provided no data, nor a source of data, I can safely presume that you are making it up and applying a broad brush. Given the terrorist attack in San Bernadino alone, I seriously doubt that your assertion will withstand scrutiny. Also, define the term "children" rather than using another emotive and undefined term.

Provide data and sources, and define how you classify someone dead from a terrorist attack, and what your criteria are, and I'll consider that you have actually provided data.

Are you willing to actually make a supportable statement, or just blow hot air?


The fact that we are off topic is noted.

pineridge
16th Jun 2016, 20:22
Chuks..........
As far as I am aware our government didn`t really do anything different to the gun laws after the massacre although I have a feeling that my taxes have gone up again.