off strip landings [Archive]

compressor stall

5th Jun 2016, 23:52

Many have successfully and many have unsuccessfully.

The trouble is that - as I am sure you know - salt lakes form a crust, once you break through at slow speed, its all over.

I would not attempt it unless you were landing in the immediate vicinity of fresh tyre tracks of a 4WD.

Aussie Bob

6th Jun 2016, 00:01

Your questions will get far more constructive answers if you post them here: Backcountry Pilot (https://www.backcountrypilot.org/)You will also find a few Aussies on board.

Here in Australia this sort of thing is dangerous, not to be undertaken and may result in prosecution. You won't have the skills either and the naysayers will only mention those that have made mistakes.

Use only the edges, fit big tyres, learn how to test the surface, and use a STOL aeroplane with a tail wheel. Have fun!

Supermouse3

6th Jun 2016, 00:13

interested as a potential precautionary landing spot, obviously they are highly variable surfaces!

But in regards to prosecution- surely anywhere you can take a 4WD you 'could' with a suitable aircraft, land?

also I wouldn't attempt even landing in 4WD tracks I would think your average light aircraft would have higher footprint pressures,

still interested to hear from anyone that has successfully.

Aussie Bob

6th Jun 2016, 00:24

I have, quite a few times. I have found rock hard surfaces and surfaces that are too soft for most aeroplanes. The softness of the surface is dependent on how recently it has rained and how much. All the ones I have seen where it is soft on the edges, landing in the middle would result in a bogged aeroplane.

If you can drag a wheel or both wheels or better still, the tailwheel then fly away you can look at the imprint on a second pass. I would highly recommend doing this in your own aeroplane only. Pilots who do this stuff in rental or company planes without specific permission and a reason are, in my opinion, a dangerous risk and dikheads.

The other question I always ask is why? If there is nothing to see, no good camping, nothing to do etc what is the point? If you are doing it because you may need to one day for real, forget it!

Supermouse3

6th Jun 2016, 00:48

the person that does it in a rental aircraft would deserve all the punishment they can get!

were you using tundra's etc?

There are a number of very nice places to visit i know of that are extremely remote and require well kitted 4WD to access,
nothing i would attempt to land an aircraft on though,

basically just interest.

Supermouse3

6th Jun 2016, 01:01

thanks for the advice, comments etc

cheers

Ultralights

6th Jun 2016, 03:11

lots of salt flats on properties all over the outback. and lots get used regularly, as said before, if unsure, use one that got fresh car tracks over it. and whats this only use a tailwheel crap!

Squawk7700

6th Jun 2016, 04:00

A mate used to carry a couple of bricks on board and throw one out the door to check the surface first. I remember he did it once and the brick went straight down and was nowhere to be seen so we didn't land there!

Aussie Bob

6th Jun 2016, 04:21

and whats this only use a tailwheel crap! Ok, point taken, your machine (Savannah as I recall?) is well capable and no doubt a better short fielder than my Scout :{

ForkTailedDrKiller

6th Jun 2016, 05:02

has anyone landed on a dried lake bed/ salt lake? (and been able to take off again!)Dried lake bed? No.

Salt pan, road, fire plow track, geo-survey line, paddock, beach? Yup, many times

C150, C182, C182RG, C185, C206, PA18, PA25, PA32, BE35

The usual story - don't prang and its generally not an issue!

A Squared

6th Jun 2016, 05:15

Dried lake bed? No.

Salt pan, road, fire plow track, geo-survey line, paddock, beach? Yup, many times

A salt pan is a dried lake bed ... or maybe you're making some distinction I'm not following.

Old Akro

6th Jun 2016, 07:16

I think if you are asking this question, then you haven't been on a salt lake. Most salt lakes in Australia have a thin layer of Salt. The exception is the Southern end of Lake Gairdner where they do the salt lake racing. There the salt is up to 1m thick.

If you search pprune, you'll find many references to aircraft that tried to land on Lake Eyre that either came out by chopper or a still there.

Salt does have a crust and below it can be clay the consistency of porridge. And don't be suckered in by the 4WD track wives tale. A), the salt lake can change condition quickly and B) I've pulled a 4WD out of Lake Torrens that followed what he thought was vehicle tracks, but was actually 2 dirt bike tracks side by side (you reckon they didn't do that on puropse?).

Hard salt has a distinctive shade of white, but if your'e not familiar with the different shades of white with different degrees of wetness (read softness) then you won't pick it.

I haven't seen the salt lakes in Nth SA properly white / dry / hard in a number of years.

So, unless you have Tundra tyres or a trusted mate to drive it first - don't do it.

Sunfish

6th Jun 2016, 07:40

Old mate used the baked bean test - a can of baked beans was dropped and if it bounced and rolled AOK - and you get to eat the beans.

Agree regarding the salt lakes, many have a thin crust over ooze.

As for clay pans, tracks etc. That is why I am building something STOL.

QDMQDMQDM

6th Jun 2016, 07:53

Two bogged on Lake Eyre in the past year:

No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaide-doctor-chen-au-peh-gets-food-poisoning-bogs-plane-in-lake-eyre-and-then-walks-70km-to-safety/news-story/3c4db8eac4da11e13fe48e01d930e535)

Bogged plane at Lake Eyre a monument to bad day in the outback - ABC Rural (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-10/lake-eyre-plane-crash-rescue-fails/6380664)

The doctor, embarrassingly a member of my own profession, gets a particularly honourable mention for:

1. Electing to land in the middle of Lake Eyre in an aircraft with tiny wheels because he felt 'ill'.

2. Not having a PLB, a Delorme or a Spot and presumably not thinking to set off the ELT with which his aircraft was almost certainly equipped.

3. Electing to try and walk out 70km at one of the hottest times of the year.

4. Only taking a tiny amount of water -- particularly stupid for a renal physician.

Although he failed to win a Darwin Award this time, with form like this he should be the proud recipient before too long.

(And Supermouse -- there's a 'Bush Flyers Down Under' Facebook page which may interest you.)

Ultralights

6th Jun 2016, 12:25

i dont think many salt lakes will be useable for quite some time, most have had some decent water in them a few times over the past few years Lake Eyre is filling again, the 3rd time in about 4 years..

Desert Flower

7th Jun 2016, 09:50

Oh how I wish PPRuNe had a "like" button!

DF.

Ultralights

7th Jun 2016, 10:08

http://stolspeed.com/uploads/files/Landed%20Poppels%20Corner.JPG

not me.

RadioSaigon

7th Jun 2016, 11:29

kaz3g

7th Jun 2016, 12:18

No one would admit to it for fear of prosecution, either.

Kaz

Squawk7700

8th Jun 2016, 00:50

About time the OWT's about bricks and tins of beans thrown out the window, in relation to beach and/or salt pan ops were put to bed. I call bull****. Everyone has got/heard a similar story, no one I know would dare base their judgement on something so small, thrown (illegally!!!) from an aircraft in flight. Absolute fecking nonsense.

A mate used to carry a couple of bricks on board and throw one out the door to check the surface first. I remember he did it once and the brick went straight down and was nowhere to be seen so we didn't land there!

Nonsense you say? My experience was not made up. Jack Smith's lake in the RAAF East Sale training area back in the MBZ days.

Some are out there living the dream and experiencing fun flying, landing on beaches, dry lakes, bush tracks and other fun places, whereas others are sitting at their computers posting in disbelief. One of the best places I've flown into wasn't an airport - a group of us was flying from Narromine to Melbourne, then spotted a Winnebago next to a nice horseshoe bend in a river, so the aircraft with the biggest tundras dropped into the paddock first to ask them if it was ok for us to camp there, then the rest of us dropped in. They offered us dinner, conversation, a campfire and a fun night. We offered them a flight in return. This is what private flying is all about. Fun and free - free from over regulation and the nay-sayers.

Sunfish

8th Jun 2016, 01:21

+1 what squawk said.

truthinbeer

8th Jun 2016, 02:10

+2
Where's the like button?

nomorecatering

8th Jun 2016, 02:44

XCub | adventure multiplied (http://xcub.com/)

The latest offering from Cub Crafters.

Aussie Bob

8th Jun 2016, 03:28

http://s25.postimg.org/hbt8x2fxr/offairport.jpg

http://s25.postimg.org/5lfbfon5b/beach.jpg

LeadSled

8th Jun 2016, 03:52

Aussie Bob,
There must be a law against it, here in Oz.
The Fun Police rule!!
Tootle pip!!

A Squared

8th Jun 2016, 04:40

..., thrown (illegally!!!) from an aircraft in flight. Absolute fecking nonsense.

OK, question here, would it really be illegal to drop a brick from an airplane in Oz? For the sake of the discussion, let's assume that we're dropping it on a dry lake bed, no person, livestock, structure or other property for miles, just empty lake bed. Would that be illegal?

Squawk7700

8th Jun 2016, 05:29

If it fell out of its' own accord, then no. Of course then you land to retrieve it so as to avoid a poor 4x4 owner driving over it and damaging his vehicle. How convenient!

bentleg

8th Jun 2016, 05:34

OK, question here, would it really be illegal to drop a brick from an airplane in Oz

There must be a law against it, here in Oz

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2015C00054

LeadSled

8th Jun 2016, 06:04

Bentleg,
Re. the brick (or can of coke etc) generally an offense, but I an certain some bush lawyer here will think up some outlandish scenario to the contrary.

Re. landing anywhere, brush up on ALAs. Not to mention sundry other local, state and federal legislation/regulation/ordinance that might have an impact, particularly anything to do with national parks, waterways, defence, or anything controlled by a local ALC.

Remember the good old days of flour bombing and streamer cutting competitions??

Seriously, this is a great example of the stifling Australian approach to aviation regulation.

The FAA/NZ CAA regulation is just two very short paragraphs.

The PAP/CASA Review draft Part 91 (1999) regulation was a single paragraph. At that time, the CASA Regulations/Orders, by comparison was 14/15 pages total. I don't know what the present page count is, probably not much different.

Tootle pip!!

compressor stall

8th Jun 2016, 07:21

Can someone point me to the training part of Part 61 that authorises the activity?

4.11 The pilot in command must be authorised under Part 61 of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 to conduct the activity.

A Squared

8th Jun 2016, 07:37

FWIW, here is the sum total of guidance on throwing stuff out of your airplane in the US.

Sec. 91.15

Dropping objects.

No pilot in command of a civil aircraft may allow any object to be dropped from that aircraft in flight that creates a hazard to persons or property. However, this section does not prohibit the dropping of any object if reasonable precautions are taken to avoid injury or damage to persons or property.

I've participated in airdrops from both ends, it can come in handy at times.

RadioSaigon

8th Jun 2016, 09:50

whereas others are sitting at their computers posting in disbelief...

Seems I've caused you some offence Squawk...

It is not the beach and/or salt-pan landings upon which I call bull****. Quite the contrary. In years past, I have done many beach ops, in a Commercial capacity, in BN2, C172 and C177. Some days I would do 5 or more beach landings a day... quite far from merely sitting at my computer in envy of those "living the life".

No. Rather I AM calling bull**** on anyone espousing throwing a brick, can of peaches or whatever from an aircraft in-flight, expecting to base their judgement of the surface suitability on the behavior of that object.

The correct way to achieve the object here has been described previously in this thread.

The brick or can of peaches yarn makes a great "boys own" story, but to offer it as advice to someone planning an excursion to a place that may require assessment is in my opinion dangerous at best.

kaz3g

8th Jun 2016, 10:17

Prepared by the Legislative Drafting Section, Legal Branch, Legal Services Division, Civil Aviation Safety Authority, Canberra.]

I couldn't have guessed <sigh>

Kaz

Supermouse3

8th Jun 2016, 10:26

big impact from a brick or can of beans whether dropped from 10ft or 100ft even at 50kt, think i would rather drag the gear to determine land-ability...

Aussie Bob

8th Jun 2016, 10:36

No. Rather I AM calling bull**** on anyone espousing throwing a brick, can of peaches or whatever from an aircraft in-flight, expecting to base their judgement of the surface suitability on the behavior of that object.

So am I. I already struggle with MTOW, a brick is out of the question. As for discarding food, forget it.

In this day and age the internet is your friend. Here you can scope an area from a satellite, look at weather, both historical and forecast, find out about tides and generally get some sort of picture at your leisure. If a salt pan is your thing, know about the moisture levels in the surrounds and stick as close to the edge as you can. IMHO there are far more fun places to land. Read, swimming, fishing, camping and a big fire at night.

Supermouse3

8th Jun 2016, 10:49

would much rather land on a beach obviously, as for my original question- i asked as landing on a beach is out of the question without tundra tyres on all but the hardest beach.. considering the tyre pressure on a 182 i regularly fly is around 50-55psi, over twice the equivalent pressure of a 4WD tyre on sand (which still sinks in) i think ill give it a miss!...

flywatcher

8th Jun 2016, 23:03

Indeed yes, Supermouse. Even on a hard beach you could probably land a 182. The problem comes when you start up to take off and the vibration of the engine causes the nosewheel to settle into damp sand and unless you have some casual bystanders and a long plank, you can easily look a bit silly. Please don't ask me how I know this.

Ultralights

9th Jun 2016, 06:52

http://stolspeed.com/uploads/images/Hammock_in_shade.JPG

http://stolspeed.com/uploads/images/On_clay_pan.JPG

Aussie Bob

9th Jun 2016, 07:32

Beautiful shots UL! But you appear to be making that aeroplane bank right :ooh:

Love the rainbow prop.

spinex

9th Jun 2016, 09:02

Seems to happen a lot around here, someone does something differently to what you were taught or have learnt to do - immediately dismissed as rubbish or BS. Hate to mention it, but a bloke I flew with did indeed toss a can of oil onto a beach with the intention of testing the suitability of the surface. Not sure that I would have wanted to rely entirely on that, but it did bounce and roll, which coupled with my observations of scarcely indented footprints, convinced us that it was ok to land. It was.

skridlov

9th Jun 2016, 09:27

Non-pilot here who used to fly with Billy Vincent* (RIP) quite a bit in the 70s. Shame he's no longer around to offer his thoughts. There's a memorial thread on the Pacific G.A. forum for anyone interested.
There are no salt lakes in Tas that I know of (rain!) however in the book "The World of Olegas Truchanas", which contains many beautiful photographs of the Tasmanian bush taken in the 1960s there's a photo of Lake Pedder before it was dammed (damned?) and flooded by The Hydro, with light aircraft parked on the white sand beach of the lake. Which may be of interest to a vanishingly small number of people.

Flying Binghi

9th Jun 2016, 11:29

Hmmm... dunno if i likes this dragging yer wheels idea. At the right ground speed dragging yer wheels on water can feel relatively firm (so i'm told, no personal experience at it) So running the wheels over a suspect surface may not tell the inexperienced much at all..;)

.

Squawk7700

9th Jun 2016, 11:48

"Dragging the wheels" can be successful depending on aircraft type. The old Drifters are a good configuration for testing the waters as they say.

Aussie Bob

10th Jun 2016, 02:37

I am sure dropping something can be a good indicator in certain situations as well. Had the blokes over Lake Eyre dropped something (dangers and legalities aside) then managed to observe it (very difficult) they may not have landed. However I am also fairly sure if they had landed hard on and parallel to the shoreline we would not know about it either.

Cloud Basher

10th Jun 2016, 09:28

What I fid amazing about the legislation that bentley posted the link to is that; there is some good "advice" for newcomers or reminders for olds and bolds in that legislation, things to remember and take into consideration lest they may cause you grief. Be a good brief for a pilot new to dropping on points to consider. But to have that in legislation...as strict liability... sums up perfectly why aviation in this country is in the state it is. Very very sad.

heers
CB

Flying Binghi

11th Jun 2016, 02:10

Thinkin about this dropping things from aircraft...

I have a vague memory from 30 odd years ago of watching a couple of ultra-lighters practicing their flour bombing technic. First one flew over the strip about 300' and dropped directly over head the target with no allowance for the forward speed of the aircraft. The flour bomb went far west out of sight. So I guess if yer gunna drop something from an aircraft you should look well before and well past the intended target just in case there is a bombardier 'error'. Also probably a good idea to drop at right angles to, and down wind of, any structures like wind mills etc.

The big concern I'd have for those first time 'bombardiers' is target fixation. If there's no pilot solely concentrating on flying whilst the bombardier visually follows the bomb and looks for impact results then there might be an unrecoverable low level 'upset' where the entire aircraft does a vertical test of surface conditions.

Then there is aircraft suitability. High wing, low wing, and can yer safely open the 'bomb door' with out bringing the aircraft down.

...thats my 10c done..:)

.