USAF Thunderbird down

[devonianflyer]

Multiple reports on Twitter reporting that an F-16 from the Thunderbirds has crashed earlier following an engine failure following a fly past of the graduation at the USAF Academy at Colorado Springs.

Multiple sources also confirming that the pilot ejected and is under medical care already. Here's hoping for a swift recovery

https://twitter.com/newsblab/status/738457936763092993

Looks well to me from these pics.

Pics of the jet...

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/06/02/air-force-thunderbirds-jets-crashes-outside-colorado-springs/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[jmjdriver1995]

One of the T-Birds has supposedly crashed during or just after their performance at the USAF Academy graduation ceremonies. News says the pilot ejected and there is a poor quality photo on Facebook showing a T-Bird F-16 down in a field. The nose is damaged and it is on its belly. Anyone know any details?

[ukie]

Thunderbirds fighter jet crashes in Colorado Springs after flyover at Air Force Academy graduation ? The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/2016/06/02/thunderbird-crash-colorado-springs/)


Pilot safe and jet appears intact in nearby field.

[devonianflyer]

And now this...

BREAKING Blue Angels F/A-18 has crashed in Smyrna, Tennessee | AIRLIVE.net (http://www.airlive.net/breaking-reports-that-one-of-the-blue-angels-has-crashed-in-smyrna-tn/)

Not a good day for the US display teams... All crossed for the USN crews...

[Robert Cooper]

One dead in the Smyrna crash but reports do not yet say who or what. Bad day all around.

Bob C

[chromakey]

The aircraft came down in a field:
http://www.denverpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/sq500-cb466da474c91c9fb3e34d0ec8069c1e.jpg?w=800

The pilot, reported by the Denver Post as Major Alex Turner, parachuted to safety. Obama, concerned, met with him afterwords:

http://www.denverpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ac88db6ce644ad1b9a0f6a7067004110.jpg?w=699

All things considered, the Colorado incident could have been worse.

[MPN11]

Officials credit his flying experience for being able to put down the plane while keeping it intact.
That's clever ... eject first, then land the aircraft?

A sad day indeed, and RIP Capt Kuss.

[malabo]

Her pictures show the pilot safely following his aircraft via parachute to the ground below.

The pilot, identified as Maj. Alex Turner, was able to land the jet intact -- despite ejecting.

"I think it is a testament to the exceptional pilotism of our Air Force Thunderbird pilot," Bohn said.

Exceptional spin doctoring by the AF PR machine, take random luck and frame it as pilot heroics.

[West Coast]

Remote control I guess. That's multi tasking.

[Wander00]

Great he is OK, but as to missing schools and hospitals, he avoided the USAF Academy!
RiP the Blue Angels pilot. Very sad

[MPN11]

I have to ask how many here claim to have mastered "pilotism" ... *

* My spill-chocker doesn't like "pilotism", and Bohn is a good name for someone using it. Is his nickname "Dome"?


However, whilst the USAF Dribble Machine is a good source of laughter, not such a good day for the Blue Angels, the USMC and Capt Kuss.

[pattern_is_full]

Reports say the Thunderbirds Falcon was already in landing config, lined up for runway at KCOS. Slow, and gear (and intake) likely absorbed most of the impact, thus the relatively intact airframe.

[ehwatezedoing]

That's clever ... eject first, then land the aircraft?

How about figure out what is going on, controlling some sort of a heading and then ejecting.
Must not be that high anyway if on approach.

[Willard Whyte]

Un-piloted landing? It's not unheard of

F-106 Accidents & Emergency Landings (http://www.456fis.org/F-106_Craches.htm)

[megan]

Un-piloted landing? It's not unheard ofRAAF had a Mirage do more or the less the same. Engine failure in the circuit, ejected, airframe deposited itself in a swamp with only a few dings in the bodywork. Now resides in a museum.

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Mirage-III-A3-36/Mirage_A3_36_Photo_via_Sid_Mitchell_a_2.sized.jpg

[tartare]

Now that's a proper paint job - look at that go fast fin flash.
None of this stealth grey bollocks.

[West Coast]

Shoot, even deployed the chute.

[Octane]

I've seen that Mirage up close and the lack of damage is remarkable. I did meet an ex Mirage pilot (RAAF) who was given a severe reprimand for successfully deadsticking a "silent" aeroplane home rather than abandoning it...

[BEagle]

In Jan 1960, a Danish Hawker Hunter pilot ejected after suffering an engine failure on the approach...

...the aircraft then made an almost perfect belly landing at Skrydstrup AB some 3 miles away!

Apparently it suffered such little damage that it was repaired and put back into service - although I find that hard to believe.

[ORAC]

IIRC there was a USAF fighter where the pilot messed up the approach to the extent he was over the runway, nose-high on the back of the drag curve and ejected.

The ejection shut the throttle and pitched the nose forward, the aircraft touched down and engaged an arrestor cable, stopping with no further damage than the missing seat and associated missing parts etc.

The pilot thereafter having the reputation that his aircraft landed better without him than with with......

[Just This Once...]

I see the major was wearing his g-suit for his meeting with Mr President. Presumably as a precaution.

[Mozella]

"The pilot, reported by the Denver Post as Major Alex Turner, parachuted to safety. Obama, concerned, met with him afterwords:

http://www.denverpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ac88db6ce644ad1b9a0f6a7067004110.jpg?w=699

All things considered, the Colorado incident could have been worse."

Yes........ Michelle could have been there. :eek:

[Union Jack]

Very sad about the loss of Captain Kuss, very glad Major Turner is relatively unscathed, but you have to be somewhat surprised at the POTUS allegedly thanking him for his service when the USAF has just lost an expensive aircraft.

Jack

[Runaway Gun]

It's not that surprising. A military member has survived a deadly incident, and can go home to his family, and provide a first hand account of what went wrong to lose a $30 million dollar jet. And he lives to fight another day. Stuff the jet!

[Union Jack]

Thank you very much, Runaway - I appreciate all that, and yes he did....:ok:

Jack

[thunderbird7]

...and he didn't lose it - its lying in that field in the picture! :)

[Rhino power]

...but you have to be somewhat surprised at the POTUS allegedly thanking him for his service when the USAF has just lost an expensive aircraft.

Jack

What a bizarre comment!
What did you expect POTUS to do? Berate Maj. Turner on the spot for the loss of the jet, despite having no idea what caused the loss?

-RP

[Union Jack]

I suspect that Rhino knows perfectly well what I meant, especially in view of my second post, although I'm sorry to see that his second sentence seems to suggest otherwise.:hmm:

Jack

[cornish-stormrider]

End of the day he's stood there, probably a bit aching and in need of a beer.....

His worst to come is the banter and then the board, I'd say that's a damn good positive - he's still kicking.

RIP to Capt Kruss who wasn't as fortunate

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Who knows what the POTUS was saying, my guess is along the lines of
"Major, I am so glad you are OK, quite a ride I guess. I'll send the bill for the jet to you later" <wink><wink>

[Three Lima Charlie]

He probably said, "With all the budget cuts I've done to the military, I'm sorry we couldn't give you a full tank of fuel. Then I arrived late and you had to circle and use up your reserve. But Major you almost made it, only a mile short of runway 35."

[Rick777]

Unofficial report I just saw says 3LC nailed it. Airport is only a few miles from display site so they didn't take much fuel. Obama speech went long. The pilot called joker so they didn't use burners for the final fly by. Due to a runway change they had to land north instead of south as planned. He ran out of fuel on downwind. No fuel means no fire.

[SASless]

Unable to say "No!"....the USAF writes off a Jet!

The current POTUS is well known for having no consideration of others when it comes to Schedules and Appointment Times.

The Birds should have packed it in and gone Home when they hit their planned RTB Fuel State....and made apologies to the POTUS as necessary.

What would he have done...cut the Air Force Budget some more?

[sandiego89]

Wow, if fuel starvation turns out to be the case due to the speech running long that will be an interesting write up on the contributing factors.....human factors, supervision, implied pressure, etc. Imagine 5 and 6 burn more fuel....

[Rick777]

How about anticipating that a speech might run long or the winds might shift and adding a little more fuel? I think someone may be looking for a new job soonl

[Treble one]

Presumably 'joker' is a fuel state something before 'bingo' gentlemen? Genuine question for the uninitiated amongst us

[JW411]

I remember reading a report about a USAF pilot who was practising short field techniques on a strip out in the desert. He was flying an OV-10. After a few successful landings, he realised on the fateful take-off that the brakes were binding and he wasn't going to get airborne nor was there sufficient strip left to stop in so he ejected. This was entirely successful and after undoing all of his straps on landing, he realised that the aircraft was sitting in the desert not far away with the engines still running. Its further progress had been arrested by a large boulder which was now wedged against the nose leg. So, he wandered over, got back in the cockpit and went through the shut down checks! They both survived to fight another day.

[TBM-Legend]

I didn't know the US Army flew OV-10,
OV-1 Mohawks yes

[JW411]

Thank you; I have amended my post to "USAF" although it could just as easily have been "USMC".

[Just This Once...]

Achieving dry tanks whilst recovering to your planned destination does seem somewhat odd.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

According to the schedule, the Air Force Academy graduation ceremony went from 9:30 am to 1 pm, with the Thunderbird flyover at the very end, during the hat toss. Peterson AFB is about 15 miles away. According to the Thunderbirds website the crash happened at 1:00 pm, and news reports say the first person at the scene of the crash was Air Force Staff Sgt. Alexander Rodriguez, who said "I saw the cockpit was empty and checked for any fuel hazard — there was a single fuel leak on the right side."

Which doesn't mean it wasn't fuel exhaustion, but it sure makes a lot of these posts sound like something The Donald would say.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

No fire after crash = no fuel on board.

No fuel on board = no fuel leak. Yet according to Staff Sgt. Alexander Rodriguez, first man on the scene, "there was a single fuel leak on the right side." Are you calling SSgt Alexander a liar?

There are also published reports stating that fuel had to be pumped out before the aircraft could be moved, and that the cause was engine failure.

The truth will come out soon enough, and I will remember this thread. I will post the truth, along with some choice quotes from this thread, along with the names of the posters. I'm an Air Force veteran, and I don't take kindly to insulting BS claims that Maj. Alex Turner flew to fuel exhaustion.

[tartare]

As a bug smasher pilot - does an F-16 have a certain amount of unusable fuel in tanks - just like my Cessna?
Which might account for fuel leaking even if there was fuel exhaustion (with no insult suggested intended to the good Major either I might add).
And yes - curious about the Joker call too... out of gas?

Hmmm - from Google:

-Air ejectors in each reservoir tank automatically expel air
-Powered fuel pumps work continually to pump fuel from internal tanks to reservoirs
-Powered system also scavenges tanks to minimize unusable fuel by using electrically driven pumps and pumps powered by bleed fuel pressure from the engine manifold

So presumably it can scavenge almost every drop of fuel in the seven or so tanks if needed.

Joker
Fuel state above BINGO at which separation/bugout/event termination should begin.

[Lonewolf_50]

No fuel on board = no fuel leak. Yet according to Staff Sgt. Alexander Rodriguez, first man on the scene, "there was a single fuel leak on the right side." Are you calling SSgt Alexander a liar?

There are also published reports stating that fuel had to be pumped out before the aircraft could be moved, and that the cause was engine failure.

The truth will come out soon enough, and I will remember this thread. I will post the truth, along with some choice quotes from this thread, along with the names of the posters. I'm an Air Force veteran, and I don't take kindly to insulting BS claims that Maj. Alex Turner flew to fuel exhaustion.
Back in 1987, Blue Angel 5 had a flame out during a maneuver (El Centro, winter practice for the Blues) while inverted. As I came to understand this (over a beer some years later with a former Blues engine mechanic) had to do with F-18A fuel pumps and fuel transfer. (A fix was eventually arrived at). As with the helicopter that crashed onto a Glasgow pub a couple of years ago, you can have fuel starvation to the engines without running out of fuel in the bird. A given fuel system may have a malfunction or a feature that can set that up. All that said, the F-16 is a mature aircraft and I'd be very surprised if it fuel system, at this point in its life, has such oddities.

[sandiego89]

I think I recall the 1987 El Centro crash was a double engine flame out due to the max inverted time being well exceeded. Something like 60 seconds sticks into my mind for some reason- a quick google search did not turn up the investigation results. So there was a fuel pump "issue", but also human factors or training issues perhaps. Many aircraft have limits on inverted time due to oil and fuel system capabilities.

[ShotOne]

Before you get too high-strung, prvtpilot rad tech, this is a rumour forum. If you're that offended by rumours perhaps you should spend your spare time on other things. On the other hand, if you actually know why the engine stopped we'd be delighted to hear.

[Lonewolf_50]

Before you get too high-strung, prvtpilot rad tech, this is a rumour forum. If you're that offended by rumours perhaps you should spend your spare time on other things. On the other hand, if you actually know why the engine stopped we'd be delighted to hear.He was responding to people who also don't know why it stopped but were speculating anyway, and in so doing making assumptions.
That happens here too. ;)

[ShotOne]

of course it does....its a rumour forum! The point is his assertion, accompanied with threats,("I will post the names....") about the fuel exhaustion being BS is every bit as speculative as the original claim.

You brought in the Glasgow police helicopter crash, lonewolf. While you rightly said it had fuel on board, this fuel was rendered unusable by being in a tank to which the transfer pumps had been selected OFF". We may never know why the experienced ex-military pilot ignored the warning lights.

[Lonewolf_50]

of course it does....its a rumour forum! The point is his assertion, accompanied with threats,("I will post the names....") about the fuel exhaustion being BS is every bit as speculative as the original claim.

You brought in the Glasgow police helicopter crash, lonewolf. While you rightly said it had fuel on board, this fuel was rendered unusable by being in a tank to which the transfer pumps had been selected OFF". We may never know why the experienced ex-military pilot ignored the warning lights.
Indeed. I was trying to point out that a variety of aircraft have systems features that can result in having fuel on board but the fuel not getting to the engines. (We used to have an issue with the aux tanks on H-2's that could bite you if you weren't vigilant, or if the bleed air system malfunctioned ...)

[ORAC]

Lots of possible reasons. Of interest, at the time this book was written, in at least 6 x F-16s crashes corrosion between contact pins causing the main fuel shutoff valve to close uncommanded was implicated as a cause.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=42jC6uy-URgC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=f16+fuel+master+switch+crash&source=bl&ots=NorNhnnwfG&sig=4cvMGaQEUlp--eBoxbHdyr5Ck-g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKqs-zkq_NAhUnJsAKHTSrDZkQ6AEINzAJ#v=onepage&q=f16%20fuel%20master%20switch%20crash&f=false

[Bevo]

Given the relatively good condition of the crashed aircraft, the cause should be relatively easier to establish.

[T28B]

Given the relatively good condition of the crashed aircraft, the cause should be relatively easier to establish.
That, and the advantage of having a living pilot available to discuss what happened with the accident investigators.

[Dougie M]

Let's hope that they get the right guys in.




http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag76/dougiemarsh/faa38caf-38ca-4443-9231-7c6dda02527d_zpsip2adpb3.jpg

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Update from the Colorado Springs newspaper, The Gazette:

The F-16's engine burns a derivative of kerosene that poses fire and environmental risks. The tanks were emptied Monday.

"We defueled almost 100 gallons," Gemeinhardt said.

That would be Lt. Col. Chad Gemeinhardt, who heads the 21st Civil Engineer Squadron and led the base's emergency operations center after the crash.

Also, according to the Gazette:

The Air Force has not said what doomed the $25 million jet, but several sources say engine failure is suspected. A board will review the crash in an investigation expected to last weeks and will include combing over the wreck in a hangar at Peterson.

That garbage about Maj. Turner running out of fuel is clearly propaganda created elsewhere for political purposes. Only a gullible fool would fall for it.

[sandiego89]

Any updates on the investigation results yet, rumor or otherwise? Would seem the answers would be understood rather quickly on this one...

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Shortly after the incident it was said a preliminary report on the cause would come out "in August." I've checked periodically, the only news I've seen is the release of the radio traffic audio. The raw audio is very poor, long periods of loud buzzing with brief bits of unintelligible and barely intelligible speech. According to published reports, the part of interest goes like this:

"Turner said his jet was having engine problems. About 10 seconds later, he said, 'I'm putting it away from somebody's house here. I'm getting out.'"

I could not make out the first part, where he's talking about the problem, but the quoted part seems accurate. Kudos to Maj. Turner for taking the time to avoid those houses.

[ORAC]

Listening to the transcript I make it out as 2 distinct statements; i.e. It cycled off/on, I am in the descent, rather than it cycled whilst he was descending.

LISTEN: FAA releases audio from Colorado Springs Thunderbird crash | FOX21News.com (http://fox21news.com/2016/07/26/faa-releases-audio-from-afa-thunderbird-crash/)

"It suddenly cycled the engine off and on."

"In the descent"

[sandiego89]

Tick tock, it is now October and not even a preliminary yet? Hmm. Often at this point it would suggest disagreement between the investigators and approvers up the chain- sometimes political, sometimes not enough or contradictory information, sometimes very complicated issues. But if it were an engine issue you would think there would be some sort of hint that they were investigating a complex mechanical issue...


We do have this from last month with this ""There's a lot involved in this," said Melissa Walther, a spokeswoman.." Sounds like it...
Investigation Continues Months after Thunderbird Crash in Colorado | Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/09/07/investigation-continues-three-months-thunderbird-crash-colorado.html)

[OK465]

complex mechanical issue

SD 89,

I've been told TB F-16s are equipped with a 'pinky switch' on the throttle for immediate AB light without moving the throttle outboard.

Prevalent unverified, unofficial, e-mail circulating rumor from the darkest recesses of fighter pilot frequented sleazy bars is that this special mod may effect the other normal stops in the throttle quadrant adversely if there is a 'malfunction'.

PR is probably searching for just the right words.

[Wander00]

OK - What, along the lines of "we screwed up"

[OK465]

I'm not sure 'we' or 'up' are acceptable terms to use in a press release.

[Airbubba]

Tick tock, it is now October and not even a preliminary yet? Hmm. Often at this point it would suggest disagreement between the investigators and approvers up the chain- sometimes political, sometimes not enough or contradictory information, sometimes very complicated issues. But if it were an engine issue you would think there would be some sort of hint that they were investigating a complex mechanical issue...

I visited a friend a few weeks ago who lives in the Colorado Springs area. He commanded one of the early F-16 squadrons at MacDill AFB and is a Zoomie (see: Glossary | Air Force Academy (http://www.academyadmissions.com/what-to-expect/how-to-speak-academy/#z)).

The word in the COS local area was that the Thunderbirds held quite a while longer than expected due to the late arrival of Air Force One. My friend thought a low fuel state was the culprit in the pilotless landing with no fire.

Similar to your analysis, he was guessing that the technical cause of the crash was known almost immediately and that the politics and blame game were what were taking so long.

He recalled a flight display timing snafu three decades ago when he was supposed to lead a four ship F-16 Super Bowl flyover.

Now, this is no s**t. ;)

He had practiced the maneuver with his wingmen and knew exactly when to start the turn inbound to make a pass for the TV cameras at the start of the National Anthem. Nobody took a knee in those days. :=

There were technical problems with the stadium sound system and the plan was to run a couple of commercials and an interview while sorting things out. The F-16's were told hang to hang loose and they would get a three-minute warning before the music started. Somehow the Star-Spangled Banner suddenly began and nobody told the Air Force.

My friend was in a turn out low over the water and missed the first couple of frantic radio calls to turn inbound. By the time he got the word, the song was half over. Seeing his military career passing before his eyes, he pushed up the power while trying to leave a little throttle for his wingmen to play catchup.

Just as the last notes of the National Anthem were played, the TV camera found the inbound Viper attack. They were still accelerating at a high power setting as they roared over the crowd and then did a pullup to slow the planes before they busted the Mach. It wasn't exactly the gentle banked formation flyby that had been approved by the feds. But the crowd went wild and the General called from Colorado Springs to congratulate Jitney on his spectacular performance. :ok:

My friend was also standing in cadet formation at the Academy in 1968 when the F-105's (at least one anyway) famously went supersonic and broke hundreds of windows.

[gums]

Salute!

You prolly have most of the story correct, Bubba. I refrained posting as I, too, expected more words by now. But my feeling is you will not gt an official report until Bronco leaves 21 Jan 17. Bronco?, see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n47rVfYG-Qc

I didn't watch the 'birds performance from the hill across I-25 as I usually do, so no comment about too long a speech. Apparently "W" went the longest on one of his. Willie was always long and one year the 'birds were holding over my cabin west of school behind a KC-10, heh heh.

My intell from connections at Pete Field, Denver Guard and a zoomie classmate was that Secret Service would not let the 'birds land until Bronco was on his way, or something to that effect. That may explain his desire to "comfort" the pilot.

As a cadre Viper pilot in 1979 at Hill, we never saw a mechanical fuel starvation incident in those first few years. We had two fuel starvation crashes, including the first loss of a Viper at Hill by an exchange OT&E pilot that did not close the AAR door in a family model after refueling and the jet still had plenty of gas in the drop tank(s) that had not been re-pressurized. Second was pilot error and he flat ran outta gas. He ejected versus deadstick on a country road and the jet continued at 15 deg AoA with gear down and EPU power. Bounced and broke one main gear, and no fire, no severe damage. Pilot walked over a low ridge and there she was with EPU puffing and collision beacon flashing - heh heh.

There could be a trapped fuel condition, and the F-35 has had plumbing insulation "flaking/delaminating" in the tanks that could be a big problem. So even very low on gas ( 600 pounds or so), he should have made it. I do not agree with some of the rumors that one or more of the 'birds flamed out taxiing in. My sources are not in agreement in that regard.

The "joker" fuel call apparently was heard by a Buckley guard troop that had the bird VHF freq. Same source also recalled the "bingo" call and a transmission from #1 re: low fuel.

Gums waits....

[SpazSinbad]

Shades of a Russian NavAv jet perhaps flaming out due fuel starvation recently. BigWigs making BigDecisions on behalf of pilots - never good. At least both ended well.

[sandiego89]

And now we are in December and still not even a preliminary report? Guess it will now come out after the Inauguration. Surely the board has plenty to go on with a live pilot, a pretty intact aircraft, great records, exact timelines.....This one reeks of politics and internal hand wringing.

[OK465]

You know, regardless of whether the conspiracy gang/flat earth'ers are correct or not, it just seems incredulous to me that if a true indicated fuel emergency was evident in the flight, that.....

.....considering how easy and predictable a flame-out pattern is in the F-16, the flight lead did not put that/those aircraft thru high or low key.

[megan]

If you're getting that low on gas why not just break formation and land? No one's going to thank you for a result of this sort.

[OK465]

I will admit that as a flight lead, if a wingman indicated that he had a fairly low fuel state, the absolutely critical first question I would always ask was.....

....."If you don't make it, can I have your stereo?"

[gums]

Salute!

Gotta laugh, Okie.

I thot "emergency fuel" was something like 800 pounds for the new motors. So by lining up for new rwy than one they took off from, could have gotten lower. Then finally, lead told tower they were landing. Lowest I ever had on initial was about 700 pounds, and that was the original Pratt F100, pre-DEEC.

I maintain we will not get the real story until 21 Jan.

Gums...

[Treble one]

Throttle trigger malfunction and inadvertent throttle rotation responsible for this mishap according to the AI.


F-16CM THUNDERBIRD ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION RELEASED > Air Combat Command > Article Display (http://www.acc.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/5725/Article/1029543/f-16cm-thunderbird-accident-investigation-released.aspx)

[gums]

Well, been wrong before and will bite the bullet here.

The throttle doesn't "rotate" as if you twisted it. It moves outboard from the idle detent. I guess you could define that as rotating if your eye level was down on the panel looking forward. But it's like your auto automatic transmission lever that you move left and right thru various "tracks" or "channels".

Something sounds fishy here, because I can't believe the guy didn't pull back all the way to the idle stop sometime during the flight until base turn. In other words, the throttle was outboard at least partially. That still smells, as outboard when forward lights the burner.

Crying shame, as the data looks like the motor was starting back up and he just ran outta time/altitude.

[sandiego89]

As I was one being critical of the investigation delay, I am happy to eat crow if it was indeed an inadvertent throttle pull past the cut off combined with a mechanical failure that allowed the pull past the stop. I still think it took to long, and is a bit fishy- they could have said we were looking at a throttle issue months ago and the main report did little to address the fuel situation during the flight. The main investigation report is here, but did not seem to answer all the questions a few of us had about the mishap flight. Perhaps the appendices do.


http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.gazette/AIB%20Final%20Report%20with%20Action.pdf


A few items after a quick scan:
- 56 minute flight before mishap (no external tanks)
- 20-25 minute ground hold before the flight (engine running)
- estimated 1,000 to 1,100 pounds remaining as the mishap aircraft was entering the pattern.
- mentions that bingo and joker fuel would be part of the brief, but the report does not state what those states were or if they were declared.
- No mention of the fuel load or fuel state (other than above), or anything on the reported/rumored call of joker fuel, and reported instruction from lead for a no burner pass.
- Noted wear and debris within the throttle detent that could of allowed the throttle to be rolled back with the button depressed.


Perhaps the rest is in the appendices.

[TLB]

Something sounds fishy here, because I can't believe the guy didn't pull back all the way to the idle stop sometime during the flight until base turn. In other words, the throttle was outboard at least partially. That still smells, as outboard when forward lights the burner.Gotta agree with you Gums. Very very fishy ! I am not a conspiracy guy but if, in fact, the engine quit in flight, then saying that the pilot shut down the engine by selecting cutoff is one way of explaining it. But as we all know here, there is another possible reason for the RPM to unwind.

The other fishy smell is that if, in fact, this qualified F-16 pilot (a TBird, no less) did actually 'inadvertently' shut down his engine during flight, causing him to eject and lose his aircraft, then why is he still flying with the TBirds ? We all know how the USAF over-reacts to aircraft accidents, especially if pilot error is involved.

Just saying ...

[gums]

Salute!

If there was debris in the throttle guides, then I can understand that one could pull back and go past the cutoff PLA ( power lever angle), as P&W called it. I still have a problem that the pilot had not pulled back to the idle stop sometime during the flight. The solo birds use burner, idle, speed brakes and all kindsa techniques to have the nice show.

The lift toggle doofer was very obvious, and then you had to also move the throttle outboard to shut down.

The F-16.net has a great post that shows a lot about the throttle:

Thunderbird F-16 down near Colorado Springs - General F-16 forum (http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47525&start=75)

In all fairness to the T-bird pilot, I once tapped the flap lever on the A-7D after the initial movement and the sucker stopped lowering the flaps. We had "beep" switches so you could raise/lower the flaps a little bit at a time. So in landing process I grabbed the handle, came around the detent and thot all was well. Leading edge flaps came down, but somewhere in the sequence I bumped the handle and the basic trailing edge flaps stopped at about half or less of required amount. Was a rainy night and runway was slick.

AoA cues in HUD and the "indexers" told me I was doing O.K., but airspeed was 20 knots high and I didn't catch that. So I landed long and hot and could not stop before using the barrier at the far end of the slippery runway.

Gums admits.....

[F-16GUY]

To me it all sounds pretty plausible and I do not see any ghosts. Only two issues as I see it is that 1) The pilot did not perform the following step in his checklist during engine start:

"Throttle cutoff release - Check.

Verify that the cutoff release does not remain in the
actuated position by attempting to retard the throttle to
OFF without depressing the cutoff release. If throttle
moves to OFF, remain in OFF and notify maintenance.

NOTE
Failure to perform this check after engine start
can result in an undetected stuck throttle cutoff
release, which may lead to an unintentional
engine shutdown."

And 2) He used a wrong technic when operating the throttle, and he should not be doing any rotational movement of the throttle at the idle to MIL range, as there is no reason to do so unless you A) want to go into AB from MIL or B) want to go into cutoff from idle.

If you pull the throttle as hard as you can all the way back, without rotating it outboard, there is no chance in hell that it will go into cutoff, even if the cutoff trigger is stuck in the open position. The idle detent will make sure of that.

My technic is to check the cutoff detent twice, first time before engine start when I check the free motion and detents of the throttle, from cutoff to max AB and back, and the second time during engine start, when moving the throttle from cutoff into idle. As soon as I get past the idle detent I will rotate the throttle outboard and try to pull it back to cutoff, without activation of the cutoff trigger.
In 10+ years on the viper I have had to ground abort twice due to stuck cutoff trigger malfunction and once due to missing MIL into AB detent. Both times the cutoff trigger was stuck in the open position due to dust contamination and the throttle quadrant had to be cleaned with compressed air since no lubrication is allowed (oil will collect dust).

[Just This Once...]

All sounds very plausible to me too, especially with the history of the pinky trigger. Rocking the throttle outboard/inboard during flight is very much part of the F-16 muscle memory as this is how you select/deselect reheat. Ideally the F-16 throttle would have a push-through detent for reheat, so that the only time you rocked the throttle was during engine start/stop and not part of the normal left-hand cognitive routine, but it is what it is.

(For those who have not flown one, the Viper cockpit is rather tight around the left thigh / throttle area, especially when you are moving your body around, adding another factor to the throttle rocking. Indeed, when flying aggressively it is not uncommon to move your left hand off the throttle completely and grab something more solid.)

[gums]

Salute, F-16guy!!


If you pull the throttle as hard as you can all the way back, without rotating it outboard, there is no chance in hell that it will go into cutoff, even if the cutoff trigger is stuck in the open position. The idle detent will make sure of that.

Yep, and double yep, and was same in my F-102 and F-101B that had burners, were P&W motors, and such. Just one thing...... was you could come outta burner by pulling straight back and not moving inboard ( I do not like that term "rotate" for some reason). But to shut down took several actions, and my technique from day one was to kinda pull into the inside all the time I moved the throttle except for burner and shutdown.

I don't have my Bk1 checklist, but I do not recall a complicated check of the cutoff trigger except we pulled on it before start to make sure it moved freely and was not jammed.

"Just this once" points out something most folks have not seen. The cockpit is like a Formula 1 or Indy race car. The big pilots are squeezed in. Tall folks no problem as seat goes way up and down and forward/back.

I still have trouble thinking the pilot had the throttle outboard when pulling to idle. And as mentioned, normal movement would not go around the idle detent unless it was broken or shaved off.

[F-16GUY]

I don't have my Bk1 checklist, but I do not recall a complicated check of the cutoff trigger except we pulled on it before start to make sure it moved freely and was not jammed.

That check is not so complicated at all, and it might have been added to the checklist since you flew the Bk1. Possibly due to some pilot cycling the motor to off and on due to a stuck trigger.

Our aircraft are block 1 and 5 updated to block 10 standard plus block 15 aircraft. All have now been MLU updated, but the throttle quadrant design and operation is still the same as in the block 1, including the drop down detent for BUC operation.