passenger allowed in the flight deck: common sense prevailing

[cooperplace]

this report describes how ex-US Air Force Master Sergeant Melvin Rector, a 94-yo WWII veteran, B17 gunner and radio operator, returned to England from Florida to again see the base he flew from. While over the Atlantic, the American Airways captain reportedly invited him to the flight deck: WWII gunner revisits country he helped save, then dies quietly there (http://www.theage.com.au/world/wwii-gunner-revisits-country-he-helped-save-then-dies-quietly-there-20160527-gp5c76.html) It's nice to see common sense and respect at work. Sadly, Mr Rector died while in England. Congratulations to the AA captain for his wonderful gesture.

[Landflap]

We would all do that Cooper. But, we live in a place of envy. Certain airlines in certain places would have you for this, Mate of mine, extending the same courtesy was reported by CA of certain background. He was in the office pretty smart & reminded of what he already knew. Warning letter placed on file ! The Reportee was miffed that on some other occasion, her request to let he boy-friend in on the FD for landing in their home town was denied.

[parkfell]

Authorised entry on to the FD on a UK reg ac, by a non approved person (as defined) has resulted in the past in more than a warning letter on the HR file.
We live in interesting times.

You do wonder what the response would be if say a member of the cabinet was allowed to Jump Seat. A rapid fax from the Dept of Transport approving the minister?:confused:

[spinnaker]

#3

I would be happy to have a warning letter on my file, as a monument to the stupidity of mankind.

[ironbutt57]

One might suspect the operating Captain may have obtained prior permission...

[Ancient-Mariner]

You do wonder what the response would be if say a member of the cabinet was allowed to Jump Seat. A rapid fax from the Dept of Transport approving the minister?:confused:

A few years ago I made a Freedom of Information Request to the UK MOD asking whether the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, had ever been invited onto the flight deck of any RAF plane that he had been flying on.

Despite an appeal, the MOD's answer remained somewhat evasive - surprise, surprise! :=

So I still don't know.
But I can guess...

[uffington sb]

Thank you Melvin, and all your buddies.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/579098-late-notice-funeral-18-may-usaaf.html

And thanks to the AA Capt and crew and all those concerned with the funeral.

[mothminor]

A very moving story.
I would like to think others would have the courage to use the same common sense.
Sadly, I too have flown with a few cabin crew who would report such things. You soon get to know who they are.

[Yaw String]

Flew Miss Pamela Anderson back from Auckland,few years back..
Boy did I want to let her sit on the flightdeck for the landing...much encouragement from my young FO,who,pointed out that my usual landing style would have been interesting in its secondary effects!!!!
It was only the forward vision of her future recollection,during some TV chat show,with the mention of such a kind crew from XX Airline,that made me see sense!....Common sense can ruin a good day!

[RexBanner]

Has anyone ever pointed out to the morons making these rules up that the kamikaze pilots of 9/11 were not on the flightdeck by personal invitation of the captain? I'd certainly like to.

[A and C]

The rules have very little to do with aviation security.

The security the rules protect is the job security of politicians & civil servants who have to be seen to be doing something when questioned by the media.

So no room at all for common sense.

[wiggy]

A and C as usual has it in one.

Arguing about common sense/captains discretion/authority is futile and will hold no sway with many national authorities. You won't end up visiting Head Office for a "chat" about a letter going on your files, you'll basically be choosing your window...and never mind the crew, these days other pax on board are just as likely to "dob" you in.

And yes it's sad...

[1965 BEA]

If I wanted to sit on the FD again I would need to apply to be CC, pass security and SEP checks and once qualified ask for the experience on my first flight ... it's usually agreed. Naturally, I would have to pass the security checks .. just like those who caused this situation some years ago.

[slip and turn]

... And yes it's sad...No not sad, it's the rules which are for the guidance of the wise. If you claim your job entitles you to claim you are wise, that's sad. If you truly are wise then you will know what to do when confronted with the decision 😉

Well done that wise AA captain. Those fearful of being "dobbed in" - you know the rules so you you can survive until you are wise.

[Basil]

I would not.
The gentleman would have been welcome to visit the FD before departure or after arrival but not in flight.

[HeartyMeatballs]

I appreciate the sentiment but if it's ok for one person to visit the FD in flight then surely it must be ok for anyone to visit the FD in flight? Where does it end, and who should and who should not be in the FD?

For me it's easy. Operating crew only. No exceptions. Although some may believe these rules are to keep civil servants in a job I believe that is very wrong. A sterile cockpit keeps Me, my colleagues and my passengers safe. Long may it continue.

[RAT 5]

A few years ago I made a Freedom of Information Request to the UK MOD asking whether the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, had ever been invited onto the flight deck of any RAF plane that he had been flying on.

The Prime Minister is commander in chief of the armed forces, i.e. boss of the military. Would he need to be invited or just command entry? He could change whatever SOP's for a few moments to suit.
Was there not a case a few years ago of a UK a/c on a private charter for a football club; one of the players asked to visit the flight deck - damn it they'd paid for the a/c - it was allowed and the captain fired?

[wiggy]

RAT
Was there not a case a few years ago of a UK a/c on a private charter for a football club; one of the players asked to visit the flight deck - damn it they'd paid for the a/c - it was allowed and the captain fired?


Yep, not naming names but it was a high'ish profile "ex-Gulf War hero" and it was pretty much as you describe..Whether he was wise or not, sad or not I don't know ;)

[radar101]

The Prime Minister is commander in chief of the armed forces, i.e. boss of the military. Would he need to be invited or just command entry


Not in the UK! It is Auntie Betty's toy box - I swore to obey Her, her heirs and successors - not a lying politician!

[RAT 5]

I know what you mean.
If Auntie Betty had really been in charge common sense might have prevailed and the Gulf War enquiry might never have been necessary. A smart chat with Sadam about how he owes the Brits one, don't be a naughty boy, give us your dirty toys, or else Liz will unleash her klingons on him and he will regret it.
But that didn't happen. I'm not sure Tony asked permission to borrow Liz's ball to go and play his own game.

[YorkshireTyke]

In the days when it was not an issue, once flew with a Captain who refused a request to visit the flight deck, No, he said, this is my office, if I walked into the bank and flipped the flap in the counter and said I'm just going to watch the Manager at work in his office, they'd fling me out on my ear, or worse. We only let people up here when we're not busy, so they see us sat here apparently doing nothing and wonder why we're paid what we are, keep 'em guessing, the mystery helps the Bull**** Baffles Brains philsophy.

On the other side.... I've met some interesting guests, including minor Royalty, Film and TV stars and the like, and received a few nice "presents" in return ! Sad that it all had to end.

I remember one young lad being asked if he would like to sit in the pilot's seat ? Ooh! yes please, he replied as he grabbed a fistfull of throttles to lever himself up. Three pairs of hands immediately disabused him of that idea !

[ExXB]

SU593 MOW-HKG

Cockpit voice and flight data recorders revealed the presence of the pilot's 12-year-old daughter and 16-year-old son on the flight deck.One of the children had unknowingly disabled the A310 autopilot's control of the aircraft's ailerons while seated at the controls. The aircraft had then rolled into a steep bank and near-vertical dive from which the pilots were unable to regain control.

No, a cockpit in flight is not the place for non-qualified persons. 75 good reasons that day.

[flydive1]

There is a huge difference between allowing someone in the cockpit to have a look (and even seat on the jump seat) and having him seat in the pilots seat and manipulate the controls.

[EEngr]

I had always thought it was allowed at the flight crew's discretion. I wonder if this FO was disciplined for her action?

AF pilot helps in airline emergency > U.S. Air Force > Article Display (http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/485155/af-pilot-helps-in-airline-emergency.aspx)

[cyflyer]

#18 RAT, yes that was Pablo Mason, the RAF's public face during the Gulf war. It was a disgraceful decision to sack him on the spot.

[Basil]

I wonder if this FO was disciplined for her action?
Emergency situation. Entirely her call.
Permitting pax to enter the FD in blatant disregard of company rules and/or criminal law is an entirely different matter.

[cyflyer]

One ridiculous situation I heard about from a friend who flies for Emirates is that sometimes they carry an engineer with them and when a situation arises that the crew need his advise he is not allowed on the FD and has to speak with the flight crew via the phone/cctv system through the door.

[RAT 5]

Maybe he should put on a skirt, a bit of rouge & lipstick and deliver the coffees.

[+TSRA]

In my younger and more vulnerable years I was the chirpy kid who got to visit the flight deck of many an airplane. With a PPL in hand (pre-9/11) I was even allowed to sit up front for take-off, the majority of cruise, to the landing.

But after having a Captains' kid who was on the flight deck many moons ago, look up and reach for the T-Handles while asking his Dad what it did, I vowed to never allow any Jonny Public up front. That idea was only solidified later on when I was "voluntold" to work a ground display during an airshow. That's when I saw what an otherwise normally sane and rational person will do around an airplane, especially the cockpit.

I get it; it's cool for you. I was for me too. But far too many people want to play "grabby hands" and there is just too much in the cockpit not meant to be grabbed that way.

[Mr Mac]

+TSRA
I think it maybe a generation thing. As you I visited many an A/C cockpit pre 9/11 from mid 60,s up to just before 9/11, and (whisper this quietly) even after 9/11 in some areas of the world. However I have always treated the pilots and their office with total respect, and would not ever dream of grabbing or touching any switch leaver etc. As a young child aircrew were authority figures and as such you treated with them with the respect they deserved. Perhaps now with the demise of this respect people wrongly feel that there kids can do anything without any come back. On my first cockpit trip in a Channel Airways Viscount I was told to sit on my hands by my Dad, and be polite, and that is what I did when a young boy and also metaphorically speaking as a young man as well ! Still miss being able to do it, as it is one of the best office views in the world.

[Hotel Tango]

Reminds me of my boys who always wanted to visit the FD of the LTU L-1011s we often flew on. The Captains were obviously sufficiently impressed with their interest and behaviour and were never in a hurry to kick them out. Generally, with two spare seats on the FD, myself and one of the boys were invited to stay for the landing. However, on at least a couple of occasions dad was sent back to the cabin and my two young sons (13 and 15 by then) were invited to stay for the landing! We never crashed! But even in those "good old days" it was always the captain's decision. So those who were not keen in admitting passengers to the FD were not obliged to. Even LTU had the odd captain who refused having anyone, even company staff. It was their prerogative and nobody thought otherwise.

[B1BOY]

An airline that I worked for after the 9/11 madness banned any flying spanners from the flight deck. Only trouble was in their communication telling of this ban they didn't specify when in the air. It was a bit difficult sorting out U/S aircraft with no access to the F/D!

[RAT 5]

What you are saying is that an employee is not allowed access to the FD, even though they are an 'authorised person'. I was with some airlines that did not allow FD visits, but if an employee was ticketed they could occupy an FD jump seat with capt's discretion. That same employee would not be allowed to visit during the flight????? The ops manual even seemed to say that a pax friend of an employee, travelling on a staff ticket on a full a/c, could occupy an FD jump-seat even though they were not flight safety trained. How daft is all this?

[Pontius Navigator]

Maybe he should put on a skirt, a bit of rouge & lipstick and deliver the coffees.
Hibjab, and the moustache wouldn't be a problem anyway.

[ViscountFan]

Certainly, wearing a short skirt improved your chances of sitting next to the pilot on Aurigny flights back in the 70s! I never tried it - my legs weren't good enough - but it worked for my then girlfriend!

[pax britanica]

I think that tante Bette actually doesn't have any authority and you only swear alligence to her on the same basis that she is the person on coins -ie as a figure head.

i think you are alos by virtue of your commission /warrant etc obliged to do as your senior officers so order and senior officers tend to support the polis who put them there

[macdo]

One of my colleagues made a unilateral decision to let someone on the flightdeck during a flight about five years ago. He was dismissed and lost an appeal for unfair dismissal.

[Hotel Tango]

Probably breached strict company rules. But outside the UK and USA not all companies completely forbid FD visits, depending on the circumstances. Policies and rules differ.

[RAT 5]

The philosophy about no cockpit visits includes that of isolating pilots from pax; not just the cockpit. Interesting to read in one major EU (non-UK) airline's magazine: a B747 captain says that a very interesting aspect of his job is walking in the cabin and conversing with pax.
I knew old friends in an Italian charter airline that allowed visits and cabin walk-abouts mid Atlantic in early 2000's. Other countries have different attitudes.
Question: Does EASA (which is law) have a published rule on this issue?

[Hotel Tango]

Even today I have seen cabin walkabouts by captains of one major I fly with. However, these are flights with 3 pilots, so I can't see that any rules are being breached. Same airline allows FD visits by industry related pax with I/D. They do however, comply with US regulations when inside US air space.

[Wageslave]

Even today I have seen cabin walkabouts by captains of one major I fly with.

Why on earth would anyone find this unusual enough to even remark on it? What possible concern could there be for a Capt to walk in his cabin? Get real!

[Hotel Tango]

Why on earth would anyone find this unusual enough to even remark on it?

Wageslave, I hope that is no reference to me? You quote only a part of my post, thus out of context, as if I am questioning the fact, when in fact I am simply supporting it. Maybe you misunderstood me, or I you.