Virgin Embraer Fleet

[cuberoute]

I heard the Ejet is to be phased out ?

Is this true ? What will replace it ?

[PoppaJo]

I think it will be more a slow exit over the next few years. Bit like QF with the 767s.

737 will replace it.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Yes its true

Replaced by the air it used to fly in!

SN

[Higs]

They realised that they have more aircraft types than Ansett did and they owe about as much money as Ansett did and what Happened to Ansett... I would say there is more to be done..

[jarden]

They also replace some E190 routes with the F100.

[The Green Goblin]

If they don't get some more revenue in the coffers, or the major shareholders stop topping them up, they'll be lucky to have anything flying by the end of the year.

Doesn't mean anyone else is safe. Far from it. If another player got in on the carcass (lion air, air Asia, etc), The incumbent could be next.

[chuboy]

Company confirming today the Embraer fleet will be completely phased out over the next 3 years.

Some ATRs to go as well.

[TBM-Legend]

....don't forget some people too!

[Icarus2001]

http://www.taiwanese-secrets.com/image-files/chinese-symbol-for-good-luck.jpg

[empacher48]

Is it just me, or does Virgin appear to be the only ATR operator in the world that doesn't make money with them?

[wheels_down]

14 E190s and a couple of ATRs, that's a 20% fleet reduction. That's a lot of jobs gone.

I heard they have big plans for Tiger going forward. Perhaps opportunities there?

[Ollie Onion]

Perhaps they are looking at getting into the low cost end of the market............

[chuboy]

I thought I heard the 737 crew were getting stretched pretty thin with rostering. Any chance the Ejet drivers can change types? It would cost VA less than a redundancy package I would have thought.

[SHVC]

That's the plan chuboy

[AuzPilot]

A major announcement soon concerning Alliance Airlines and Virgin. Alliance will become part of VARA and many E190 and ATR runs to be flown by Alliance F100's and F50's. Whether major Alliance shareholders will finally sell and take the money is not known, but Virgin is cashed up from the share rights issue some time back, that can only be spent on growing the airline, not retiring debt. As a VA insider looking at the arrangement, it is probably a far better investment than the Skywest deal.

[yossi91_tays]

So, what aircraft are they replacing all the ERJs with?..

[Goat Whisperer]

It would make sense. Rex next?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

ATR was always the WRONG aircraft for Australia, especially when you consider what the opposition are using. E190, also WRONG aircraft but for different reason, it wont yield the profit VS a turboprop. I would say the penny has dropped and they need to sort this out, the big question is will that set up a profit making outfit or will it continue to bleed.

My guess is the blood will continue to flow. Deep structural change needed at VAA.

Goat
Its not REX who should be afraid of VA, quite the opposite in fact. All REX needs is an investor and a few 73's and they have a ready made complete airline.

SN

[VH-FTS]

So in your expert opinion, why was the ATR always the wrong aircraft for Australia? And don't say geographical spread because there are plenty of sectors suitable.

Perhaps it has just been poorly managed since day one? Maybe because a majority of eggs were placed in the FIFO basket instead of focusing on becoming a true regional airline?

[splat72]

A major announcement soon concerning Alliance Airlines and Virgin. Alliance will become part of VARA and many E190 and ATR runs to be flown by Alliance F100's and F50's. Whether major Alliance shareholders will finally sell and take the money is not known, but Virgin is cashed up from the share rights issue some time back, that can only be spent on growing the airline, not retiring debt. As a VA insider looking at the arrangement, it is probably a far better investment than the Skywest deal.


Plenty of experienced and current Fokker 100/70 crew in Cairns and Brisbane who work for an operator further north looking for a new job to.

[B772]

It appears AuzPilotand and splat72 maybe the same poster.

The $1,000,000,000 capital raising is to pay 12 month loans ($425,000,000) and the remainder to prop the share capital up. There are no funds available to purchase anyone.

[CFM56-7]

There may be funds there possibly ?

$584m balance start
+$425 m loan

$1009m balance

+$159m HNA purchase
+$852m right issue

$2022m balance
-$425m loan repayment

$1597m balance (extra 1b)

-250m restructure cost

$1347 balance
Maybe some spare capital to purchase another asset ? Might be possible who knows.

[Counter-rotation]

I'm going to weigh in with VH-FTS here -

Soup Nazi, could you flesh out your statement about the suitability or otherwise of the ATR? Genuine question...

[BPA]

And while you are at it Soup Nazi, can you expand in your comment about the E190 being the wrong aircraft for Australia.

Given what happened with VARA, I can't see VA purchasing another operator ie Alliance, but I can see them having a long term agreement (5-10 years) with Alliance to take over some of the E190 and ATR routes.

[The Green Goblin]

I can't believe they bought a great little airline in Skywest and......

[TWOTBAGS]

No being rude but let me correct your maths there,

$584m balance start
+$425 m loan

$1009m balance Correct

+$159m HNA purchase
+$852m right issue

$2022m balance
-$425m loan repayment
-$160m loan repayment (US$125M due August)

$1437m balance

-250m restructure cost (I think you will find this increases significantly)

$1187 balance

-350m (approx. delivery deposits for MAX)

$837 remaining

Back to square 1

[Berealgetreal]

I can't believe they bought a great little airline in Skywest and......:{:{

Yeah great..
:ugh:

[CFM56-7]

Thanks for the correction TWO BAGS, as I said "who would know??" myself included.
350m for delivery slots
Where is this public info ??
Are you on the order team for VA or do you work for Boeing ??
If the are deposits would they not already have been paid?
Next delivery max due 2018 not 2016? So that capital requirement is at least two years away ?
Again please correct my mistakes, I'm sure there possible may be some.

[propsmear]

Heard through the grapevine that they are buying rex.... cough

[chuboy]

Adding 340s to the fleet as well... no wonder they felt the need to rationalise ;)

[propsmear]

At least that part of the operation will make them money.

[SpyderPig]

Heard the some Australian operator has ordered 17 E2s, might be for that? Would be interesting if they are quiet enough to operate inside the curfew hours

[Johnny_56]

Do you mean Rex? Didn't they make a loss last year?

[splat72]

B 772

Not at All.

[Snakecharma]

Personally I think the executive needs to get its **** in a pile and manage what it has appropriately before buying anything else.

The Skywest deal was great for the previous owners and that is about it.

Remember the bidding war over hazos in the period before Ansett went legs up, seems like history is repeating itself over and over.

[Berealgetreal]

Buy Rex? Just what they need... another operator with a bunch of clapped out Sh!theaps.

[propsmear]

Clapped out sh!theaps that 'make money'. As opposed to the slow and exceedingly expensive italian/french junk they have at the moment, which makes squat.

[34R]

Green Goblin, funniest post in this whole thread :rolleyes:

[Cessna Jockey]

Berealgetreal, I'm no fan of Rex either, but perhaps you should do some homework:

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/regional-australian-airline-rex-just-posted-its-first-ever-loss-2016-2

They have a monopoly on most of the routes they fly and I don't know of many other Aussie airlines around who can say they've pulled a profit every year since 2002, do you?

[Berealgetreal]

Maybe you should read my post. Which says - last thing they (Virgin) need is another type (which is clapped out).

Given they(Rex) have a "monopoly on most routes" as you say, makes sense that they would make money out of them wouldn't it?

Why would I spend my time reading about some bloody turbo prop outfit? The only time I've seen media on them is when they are writing stupid letters to would be cadets or having industrial action taken against them for one reason or another. Pretty clear where some of that profit comes from!

Wouldn't have a clue what Atr vs Saab numbers are. Who cares?

[Cessna Jockey]

Maybe you should read my post. Which says - last thing they (Virgin) need is another type (which is clapped out).

Given they(Rex) have a "monopoly on most routes" as you say, makes sense that they would make money out of them wouldn't it?

Why would I spend my time reading about some bloody turbo prop outfit? The only time I've seen media on them is when they are writing stupid letters to would be cadets or having industrial action taken against them for one reason or another. Pretty clear where some of that profit comes from!

Wouldn't have a clue what Atr vs Saab numbers are. Who cares?

Ahhh mate, I did read your post. Your view is they shouldn't buy them because of their aircraft. I countered with a contrary opinion that it would be a good investment because they make money, something Virgin needs. I thought linking an article might help to open your mind, but it appears the only 'bloody' thing you need to worry about is getting your tampon changed.

[KABOY]

Buy Rex? Just what they need... another operator with a bunch of clapped out Sh!theaps.

Well, the reality is that they are making more money per dollar invested than VA are.

Shiny jets only work when you know how to make money with clapped out ones, but even that has been proven wrong.

How about Rex by some near new ATR's?:ugh:

I know if you did care, you would realise that those business models are the ones you should care about....they make money and provide jobs.

You can only lose money for so long before your piggy bank shuts up and moves on....

[wheels_down]

Tiger Airways profits funding Virgin Australia's loss making business

Never thought I'd see the day.....

[Icarus2001]

http://crudeoilpeak.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Virgin_Australia_net_profit_after_tax_2003_2013.jpg

First half of FY 2016 profit $91 million

[OperatorX]

A slot is a slot, when talking about movements in and out of the major cities... You can send an A380 or a SAAB340, it doesn't matter.
REX own a **** load of slots and routes now all over the country so wouldn't that attract an airline that want more slots and routes?

Qantas / QantasLink (Not Qantas but is Qantas)

Wouldn't it make sense that with REX's consistent expansion over the last few years, a said airline might try an alliance to complete the network?

VIRGIN / VIRGINLINK... (Not Virgin but is Virgin) just sayin. makes perfect sense!

[TWOTBAGS]

A slot is a slot......

Except when it is quarantined for "intra-state" services as per the ACT which nearly all REX slots are.
Just because they have a 730am slot does not mean big brother can chuck an A330 into it.
Qantas have the luxury of having so many Sydney slots that they can swap and change by minutes here and there, just watch metron some days....

Buying Rex does not solve anyone's slot problems. :E

[Ten Two Hundred]

Let's hope the rumour is not true that Virgin are looking at wet leasing their A330 expansion plans into China.

Be a shame considering the future possibility of pilot redundancies with the decommissioning of the Ejet fleet and reduction of ATR numbers. Not to mention the career aspiration of others who are not currently in their preferred rank, base or even country.

[chuboy]

Expansion as in extra aircraft?

Not sure this would be on the cards for Virgin near term. On the other hand, I'm sure I remember reading that Hainan has more A330s in the fleet than it knows what to do with...

[BPA]

I think you will find the IASC approve they just received will not allow them to wet lease and it will need to be VA's metal operating the services.

In the short term (1-2 years) I think they will pull 2 aircraft of the transcon flying (there has been a softening in the domestic traffic) and replace them with B737's. These 2 aircraft would then operate the international services.

The international flights will require additional crew to operate them, as most likely they will be operated as a 3 man crew. This along with the B737 flying increasing should be enough to absorb all the Ejet crew, it however may require some pilots to move base if they want to retain their current rank or a change in seat ie back to the RH seat for captains or back to the second row for FOs, should they want to remain in their base.

[Snakecharma]

Back of the coaster calculations...

Daily to Hong Kong - about 1.5 aeroplanes
Daily to Beijing - about 2-2.2 ish aeroplanes

Those numbers will vary if the flights are ex Sydney depending on the schedule as the curfew could drive longer turnarounds in the destination ports which would mean more aircraft (or percentage of an aeroplane).

So round it up and call it 4 machines to do the daily flights approved by the IASC. Current fleet of A330's = 6. The rounding up might account for any additional ground time due to curfew constraints in Sydney.

If they operate to/from a 24 hr airport like BNE or Mel then the turnaround times can be optimised to suit the commercial situation, rather than being driven by the curfew.

[Ken Borough]

A slot is a slot, when talking about movements in and out of the major cities... You can send an A380 or a SAAB340, it doesn't matter.

Not so. Slots not only consider runway capacity but other small and irrelevant factors such as gate availability and terminal capacity.

[Boe787]

Daily Round trip to Hong Kong can be achieved with one unit, depending on departure times, i think Qantas do it with their A330s when they operate to/from Hong Kong?
Beijing daily return would require 2 units, but with possibility for the unit that after its arrived in OZ, to do a tran con return sector, to be ready for next day departure to Beijing.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Just wondering if anyone knew why Virgin don't re-brand Tiger to Virgin Blue? Everyone knows the name, trusts it and hasn't been painted with the tainted with the Tiger name that has zero good will or sentiment with the public.

Makes more sense as a whole and if they went back to the fun low cost carrier they used to be renowned for they might actually start enticing a whole heap of people back over from the competition.

[morno]

TigerAir makes money and apparently has very good loads. So what would be the benefit of doing all that?

[neville_nobody]

A slot is a slot, when talking about movements in and out of the major cities... You can send an A380 or a SAAB340, it doesn't matter.

There was a deal made between the Agrarian Socialist Party and the government at the time about protecting the regional slots in prime movement time at Sydney airport so that country folk could access the city in one day without having to overnight. ie down first thing in the morning then back same night. Part of the deal was those slots could only be used by regionals.

[wheels_down]

What's going to happen here is what hit Qantas in 2005.

TigerAir is the future growth and profit vehicle. Expect the majority of short haul International to be given to Tiger. Virgin will play a token part in a few services to NZ. The Queensland leisure market will be handed to Tiger. Virgin might even keep a few peak hour runs....

The leader has stuffed the strategy and needs to reduce costs. In comes the Tiger.....

[The Green Goblin]

Yep, JB is just replicating the QF strategy a decade after they've done it.

It's sad. VB should have stuck to the virgin mantra of value for money delivered in a cheeky and light hearted fashion. They could have eaten JQ, as JQ is about bums on seats with zero brand loyalty. It's not cool to fly JQ. It was to fly VB. Especially with those button up blouses and backpackers from the motherland on secondment.

People fly QF for status, which is why they get extra yield. They want to be seen in the lounge. They want QF club bag tags. Gold frequent flyer tassles sprinkled around appropriately.

People don't fly VA for status. So when the ticket is VA or JQ, and JQ is cheaper, JQ gets the nod. Tiger is clawing for a fight, but twin pillar strategy of QF isn't letting them in.

If the foreign shareholders where not trying to play chess with each other through VA, it would have withered already.

[mcgrath50]

People don't fly VA for status. So when the ticket is VA or JQ, and JQ is cheaper, JQ gets the nod. Tiger is clawing for a fight, but twin pillar strategy of QF isn't letting them in.

There was definitely a time where VA was the "cool" premium brand and QF was the dinosaur. Credit where credit is due, over the time QF as well has lifted their game, with new lounges, uniforms, seats etc. and have taken a little bit of shine off the new kid on the block.

JB has made mistakes but I think this thread is not giving enough (any) credit to the fact QF has done a decent job of countering VA's move into the premium market.

I'm now off to have a shower, I feel dirty after complimenting AJ and his management team!

[TBM-Legend]

....just don't drop the soap!

[Seriously]

Turn it up!

You've seen who flies business on Virgin have you?

[Kranky]

Getting back to the ejet.
I know and understand that these smaller jet have to be used somewhere but I do find it interesting that they are found operating on sectors that I know for fact, have no trouble filling a 738. Sectors such as CNS-SYD, TSV-SYD and ADL-PER just to name three. Look at the early flights SYD-MEL and you will see VA ejets mixed with 73s doing that, meanwhile QF drop a couple of A330s mixed with 73s on this same sector.

This says to me that the ejet was definitely a poor choice as there were not enough thinner routes that couldn't support the bigger 73s and so now they have to use the ejet on sectors that really should have 738s on them.

For me, I fly out of ADL and wether going to BNE, SYD, MEL or PER it's common to be on an ejet so I for one will welcome the phasing out of the ejet.

[lemel]

Kranky,

Do you not like flying on the ejet? If so, I think you are the first person I have heard say that.

As far as passengers are concerned, they are a great aircraft. Window or aisle seat, more leg room than a 73 and 1G autopilot makes for a nice ride.

[updown]

How do you not enjoy flying on an ejet Kranky? So much more comfortable than the 737. If you want the 737, go fly QANTAS.

[Warragul]

Only negative for this passenger, is the mini lottery on whether your window seat actually has a window or wall.

[Kranky]

Didn't say I didn't like flying on the ejet, flown on them plenty of times in fact.
I did however, just the other day, fly on a QF 738 and the seats were shockers.

The point of the post was how the ejet are being used on sectors that have load factors which are good for the 73s but VA choose to put the ejet on.
Thus saying they may not have been not a good choice in the first place.

[cavemanzk]

Probably we're to small in the first place, if even NZ didn't need them and jumped form an 133 seat 733 to 171 seat A320.

Which are now running services in the AM/PM peak every 30minutes on AKL/CHC and CHC/AKL.

[TWOTBAGS]

Back on the 18th of June, you asked me to justify the $350 million....

your answer just became public.

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20161010/pdf/43bv79gn49wlg5.pdf

It was never the value in doubt, we knew what they needed, just I don't think anyone would have issued them another $350M in unsecured notes.

[Icarus2001]

So given that this is an Embraer Fleet thread, how long have they got left? I did hear a story that due shortages there were some endorsements being conducted to fill up holes.

[coaldemon]

No E Jet endorsements have been done this year talking to a Checkie in VAA

[The Bullwinkle]

Do you not like flying on the ejet? If so, I think you are the first person I have heard say that.

Let me be the second!

[Icarus2001]

Well so much for that story then. So the other question is when will they be gone?

[Altimeters]

First quarter of 2018 from I can remember. Although they are already getting behind on the back log of B737 training who knows what will happen between now and then!

[Engineer_aus]

I was told by the end of the year due to crewing issues.

[coaldemon]

You were told wrong

[White and Fluffy]

Are any e-jet pilots taking LWOP or leaving altogether to fly in China?

$265,000 isn't bad to fly an e-jet, a bit less if you want to commute, if you do they pay for hotel whilst in country!

http://www.wasinc.aero/web/Jobs/JobDetailsPage.aspx?JobId=151

[TSIO540]

Daily Round trip to Hong Kong can be achieved with one unit, depending on departure times, i think Qantas do it with their A330s when they operate to/from Hong Kong?
Beijing daily return would require 2 units, but with possibility for the unit that after its arrived in OZ, to do a tran con return sector, to be ready for next day departure to Beijing.

...until Beijing starts flow control! They typically have 8-10 hour delays in summer and 4-5 hour delays in winter