Logging long-haul flying as an SO

[F50BNE]

Hello everyone,
I've recently started a long haul job as a Second Officer. Prior to this, everything I've done was single pilot or 2 crew.
I'm getting some conflicting info from people at work as to how we log our flight time.
I've been told the SOs just log "co-pilot" and given total aeronautical experience doesn't exist anymore, it just goes in as 1 for 1 with total hours.
People have told me separate things on exactly how much time to log. So far I've gotten:

1) Only log time while seated in one of the two front seats (so 50% of the cruise minus the last hour basically) or about 6.5 hours total on a transpacific
2) You're part of the crew whenever you're on the flight deck, so log everything except time spent in crew rest (so about 8 hours per transpac)
3) Just log the whole flight from pushback to shutdown

For those of you who have been doing long haul for a long time, what's the accepted norm?

Thanks

[neville_nobody]

Check with CASA since it's a legal document you are writing. I had a look at the CASA website and that still says Total Aeronautical Experience exists.

[Going Nowhere]

Wouldn't your ops manual have a section about how to log flight time?

[BuzzBox]

The following is a link to CASA's pilot log book page. The way I read it, as a second officer you can log the time from push back to on blocks, but you cannot log the time spent resting.

https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/pilot-log-books

Relevant quotes:

Flight Time (Aeroplane)
means the total time from the moment an aeroplane aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to rest at the end of the flight.
Note: This is synonymous with 'chock to chock', 'block to block' or 'push back to block' time.

Operating Capacity and crediting of flight time

Co-Pilot Includes all flight time as co-pilot or second officer. Time spent as designated crew rest during a flight CANNOT be credited towards co-pilot time.

Note 1: only 50% of the flight time logged as a co-pilot can be included for the purpose of calculating total aeronautical experience.

[morno]

Since when were we back to logging copilot time as 50% for our TAE?

[Brakerider]

Since when were we back to logging copilot time as 50% for our TAE?


We aren't, the info on the CASA page that BB quoted is old CAR5 info. Wrong

[neville_nobody]

We aren't, the info on the CASA page that BB quoted is old CAR5 info. Wrong

So where is the new stuff? Part 61 makes no mention of augmented crewing copilot time and there is nothing in the CASA website. Giving it is pretty important its bloody hard to find.

[Brakerider]

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/540049-part-61-aeronautical-experience.html

[Trevor the lover]

I always logged the lot. I'm sure the captain is still "the Captain" and is logging command time when sleeping.

[neville_nobody]

So this is all assumption based, there is nothing actually written anywhere specifing any of this other than what CASA have on their website which contradicts what is being said on here.

[F50BNE]

Thanks guys. It really shouldn't be so confusing! The info on CASAs website is inaccurate as TAE doesn't exist under Part 61 (inline with the rest of the world). Their paragraph on "time spent in rest doesn't count" also doesn't have a legal reference.

Our "ops manual" doesn't specify how to log flying time.

I guess most people at decent airlines flying long haul are settled in and don't plan to leave, however I am looking onwards and upwards so I want to make sure I've got it right for when I head to the next interview

[Capt Fathom]

Due the the lack of suitable regulatory/company guidance....

I would put the hours in the Copilot column and into another spare column so you (and any future employer) can readily see the Second Officer hours verses First Officer hours.

[BuzzBox]

61.085 Definition of flight time as co‑pilot for Part 61

A person’s flight time as a co‑pilot is any period, during flight in an aircraft that, under these Regulations, must be flown with a flight crew of at least 2 pilots, in which the person is performing co‑pilot duties other than as pilot in command under supervision.

Note: A co‑pilot is a pilot on board an aircraft in a piloting capacity other than the pilot in command or a pilot who is on board the aircraft for the sole purpose of receiving flight training: see the definition of co‑pilot in Part 1 of the Dictionary.

61.090 Definition of flight time as pilot in command for Part 61

A person’s flight time as pilot in command of an aircraft is the duration of a flight for which the person is the pilot in command of the aircraft.

I agree it's nebulous, but the bit about "performing co-pilot duties" might get you into trouble if you log bunk time as flight time. It's different for the pilot in command, who can log the whole lot whenever he or she is the designated commander of the flight.

[neville_nobody]

How does all that work out for Flight and Duty and pay? If you do a 14 hour flight and log 4 hours in the bunk do they only count 10 hours to your monthly and annual totals? Thats almost another flight extra you can do every 3rd sector!

[BuzzBox]

Can't speak for others, but where I work the whole lot counts for calculating flight/duty periods and hourly flying pay in cases where there are four pilots. The same applies for flights with two or three pilots, except that different multipliers are used for the purpose of calculating the hourly flying pay, ie the multiplier is higher for a two-pilot or three-pilot flight, with two-pilot flights having the highest multiplier.

[The Green Goblin]

I take it you recently started as a cadet SO on a 787?

Log the whole lot, with a note in the details section of crew rest etc.

For instance, BNE - NRT crew rest 2.0. Seat 1, 3.0 seat 2, 3.0 total time 10.0

The total flight hours count for flight and duty. Log the lot.

[LeadSled]

F50BNE,
As is obvious from the replies, the rules (or the interpretation of) vary from NAA to NAA, and can vary between operators under the same NAA.
Read your company manuals, and your local NAA regulations, if the answer is not there, or not clear, get a determination from your applicable NAA --- IN WRITING --- don't accept a "verbal" "ruling, you may need evidence.
Fundamentally, the ICAO Annex I rule is you log everything blox to blox as P2/Co-Pilot/local equivalent.
Do not, under any circumstances, take any of these posts as authoritative, as incorrect log book entries can attract quite severe penalties -- particularly in Australia.
Tootle pip!!

PS: NAA --- National Aviation Authority.

[neville_nobody]

Good advice. A logbook is a legal document and it is utterly ridiculous that on a public forum there is no definitive answer on how to log flight time.

[BuzzBox]

Fundamentally, the ICAO Annex I rule is you log everything blox to blox as P2/Co-Pilot/local equivalent.

Just to add to the confusion, Annex 1 states (my emphasis):

"2.1.9.3 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot at a pilot station of an aircraft certificated to be operated with
a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time..."

I'd interpret that to mean that a co-pilot can't log the time unless he or she is at a "pilot station", so bunk time doesn't count.

[OneFlightWonder]

Not an aus airline, but I log my S/O time as time spent in the operating seat only. I can't see the logic in logging anything else

[The Green Goblin]

I take it you recently started as a cadet SO on a 787?
I think his handle "F50BNE" would point in another direction.

ADFUS, I take it I'm a green goblin too?

There could be an operater that uses SOs on a Fokker 50 in Australia based in Brisbane. I bet they earn top dollar too.

I bet they trained them on C209s, an amazing aeroplane.

[sleeve of wizard]

Whilst not in the CASA documentation this is how it's done in EASA land.

The holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC
Cruise relief co-pilot flight time:a cruise relief co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot when occupying a pilot’s seat;

[DeltaT]

Wow, no wonder there are so many pilots in the top end of experience with huge amount of hours, all the SO are logging time even when not in a pilots seat.

[The Green Goblin]

Yes.

There's been a whole batch recently appointed. They are SOs. VAR call them cruise FOs. Hence why I think the poster is a JQ 787 SO.

[LeadSled]

F50BNE.
I can only repeat, read and understand you company manuals/approvals and your applicable NAA rules ---- and in the event of any lack of clear definition, get a written determination from your NAA.

Sundry posts here of personal experiences/recollections/practices are of no use to you, you must have the legally enforceable facts.

The amount of messing around with something as simple as logging flight, in Australia, borders on the unbelievable, and largely stems from being a dweller in the anally fixated Aviation Galapagos that is Australia.

Tootle pip!!

[Snakecharma]

Goblin, the cruiser thing went a few years ago, they are now called SO's

[The Green Goblin]

At least they are calling a spade a spade. Cheers for the update.

[F50BNE]

Thanks, I'll chase it up with the NAA which unfortunately happens to be CASA so we'll see how that goes.

No, not QF 78 as has been alluded to. I dare say if it was, there'd be a little more internal guidance.

[LeadSled]

F50BNE,
In that case, regard the advice "get it in writing" as mandatory, CYA applies.
Tootle pip!!

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Personally I can't see how you can log anything unless you occupy the seat. Thats got to be common sense. For your own sense of what you've actually done, riding around in a horizontal position reading superman comics (or worse) doesn't count! The only exception being the PIC of course.

SN

[LeadSled]

Personally I can't see how you can log anything unless you occupy the seat. Thats got to be common sense. For your own sense of what you've actually done, riding around in a horizontal position reading superman comics (or worse) doesn't count! The only exception being the PIC of course.Soupnazi,
Personally I can't see how you can log anything unless you occupy the seatThat is a personal opinion ONLY!!

Thats got to be common sense.izzaatso!!
If that is the case, when the Captain is having some time off. I guess the F/O can log the time as Pilot in Command??

Why is the Captain an exception?? You should be quite specific about legislating "exceptions", wouldn't want anybody logging hours, to which they are "entitled", would we.

ICAO Annex 1 doesn't mention exceptions.

Should the F/O log "P2 in command", maybe.

Just about every aircraft is now certified two pilot, so how would you like to recognise a (company) requirement for additional pilots to be on the flight deck for "extra eyes", during arrival and departure, climb and descent -- and have different rules for logging where the company FCOM doesn't have a specific requirement, or vary it, depending on the use the individual PIC makes of additional crew.

Make it really complicated, with vast new "regulations" and lots of enforceable definitions, and, of course, audit the whole lot, with a bunch of of new "strict liability criminal offences" --- so very Australian, bureaucratic to the nth degree, and having absolutely no bleeding relationship to aviation safety outcomes.

The thing about "common sense" is that it is so uncommon.

The whole fallacy of these very precious and anal "Australian" arguments about logging time, is that a log book is a record of experience, but the value of the experience, the measure of "experience" in not only the hours count.

When I look at the log book of a potential recruit, what I see is what he/she has done, where he/she has been, and the case of very long range flights, on which they have been a crew member, it is of far more significance that they have done it, than whether they log Singapore -London and 7 hours S/O-P3, or Singapore- London and log 14 hours S/O-P3.

As to any "promotional criteria", what about competency standards?? Isn't competency what really counts.

Tootle pip!!