French ATC Strike [Archive]

captplaystation

18th May 2016, 23:07

Binder, sorry to say, but,

France is France and the French will defend their social rights to the bitter end....in this respect....they don't give a stuff about anybody else......

If we had done some of this stuff, this profession may have been a more worthwhile option for our children/grandchildren

There are bigger things brewing in France, and it won't just be ATC on strike as this Summer progresses.

http://www.euronews.com/2016/03/09/proposed-changes-in-a-new-labour-law-for-french-workers/

Journey Man

19th May 2016, 04:44

Can the wonderful EU bods in Brussels do something that, like the police force in the UK at least, make it illegal to strike? As isn't this the 3rd or 4th one already this year? I appreciate I may touch some nerves with this comment, but for the sake of all in the aviation business, please don't mess us around any more!

Regulate the market even further? Companies are very quick to demand deregulation in the name of a free market, yet when the workers act according to the concepts of a free market and dictate how much they should be compensated this is somehow just not cricket? It can't be okay to glibly say pay is low because it's a free market and there is a ready supply of employees, yet when there aren't enough qualified employees, those same employees can't sell their services at a higher rate... Either it's a free market or it isn't.

core_dump

19th May 2016, 05:11

In a truly free market, if you don't show up for work I am allowed to fire you and hire someone else willing to do the job.

Noxegon

19th May 2016, 05:21

It is the fifth strike in the last two months, and the 46th in the last seven years. Bit ridiculous iMHO.

Journey Man

19th May 2016, 05:54

In a truly free market, if you don't show up for work I am allowed to fire you and hire someone else willing to do the job.

Exactly. I, therefore, would presume these workers possess a skill-set that takes time to retrain coupled with experience. The market will determine if the remuneration they demand is reasonable.

The obduracy of staff isn't the issue. All areas of the industry subsidising what is essentially a derived demand product, is.

compton3bravo

19th May 2016, 06:08

Typical reply from a Yank (core dump). Probably never heard of sticking up for your own rights and for future generations. I understand it is over T&Cs for new starters, well worth fighting for especially in ATC. Earnestly waiting for the usual Ryanair rant!

wiggy

19th May 2016, 06:48

I understand it is over T&Cs for new starters, well worth fighting for especially in ATC.

That's their legal reason, but today's action is much more to do with the fact that there's also widespread national protest at the moment about the introduction of a new set of labour laws (the law "El Khomri"):

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/03/09/what-the-new-french-labour-law-tells-us-about-france-and-the-euro/

The ATC action is timed to tie in with widespread demos today (e.g. our local airport ground access is blockaded as I write, and lorry drivers are blocking access to several fuel oil refineries - we engaged in a bit of panic topping up last night...).

captplaystation:

There are bigger things brewing in France, and it won't just be ATC on strike as this Summer progresses.

+1....Mr Valls verses the unions..wouldn't want to be in the middle of that....

kcockayne

19th May 2016, 07:36

Don't know much about this but, I have some measure of agreement in what Journey Man says.

172_driver

19th May 2016, 09:26

Agree with Journey Man, he makes a very good point.

Ryanair had a petition on their webpage following the last strike where they wanted to regulate and have it illegal for ATC to strike. Yet they're the first one to use the benefits of the free market.

FRying

19th May 2016, 10:52

Hard to pick my winner between :
- ATC that keeps striking to a point you wonder when they're not on strike
- Pilots blaming ATC but whinging about their poor conditions and their miserable lifestyle (yet not acting. "You know, this is a hard like, you have to take or leave it. After all this is a competitive market and you knew it beforehand").

Arrh, well I'll go for ATC. I've just had enough of those poor puppies (pilots) crying on their poor fate while finding all excuses available not to take action to the next level for their own good.

jumbobelle

19th May 2016, 10:57

I agree in principle with standing up for your rights and if the numbers worked in France they may even have my ear, but the economy is rubbish and France does not work. Enterprise and competition are actively discouraged on so many levels, especially through employees rights. Time and again I see small businesses go to the wall after 3 years (when the tax kicks in) or established business that cannot afford to grow because they can't afford to take someone on because of the high social charges (the healthcare, education and infrastructure are fantastic and that's got to be paid for somehow) or because once you hire somebody they have so many rights and it's so difficult to let them go if you downsize it cripples businesses. I have two friends who've taken a year off, paid rather than lay them off and re-hire. Now that's lovely if you can get it and great to have strong employment protection, but when businesses countrywide are closing or stagnant because of it it defeats the object in a country that's got over 10% unemployment and growing. I can't get behind industrial action for that.

wiggy

19th May 2016, 11:19

Time and again I see small businesses go to the wall after 3 years (when the tax kicks in) or established business that cannot afford to grow because they can't afford to take someone on because of the high social charges (the healthcare, education and infrastructure are fantastic and that's got to be paid for somehow)

TBH I think that's a bigger problem than workers rights. When the state levies taxes and social charges on a company in advance using an estimation of the profit it might make in the forthcoming tax year it's no wonder small businesses struggle or go under.

(Apologies for thread drift)

ATC Watcher

19th May 2016, 16:47

The situation this May in France reminds me of the same period in 1968. explosive and I concur with Capt Playstation assessment , this is just the begining.
Having just spend an evening with a young FO of a certain known airline that cannot be named and heard what their company plans for them , i do not like what this ultra liberal Trump-like society wants to achieve both economically and socially in the end. All working for minimal wages 15h a day 6 days a week like in the 1850, (or like in Ethiopia or Erithrea today ) ?

I also do not like to be affected by Strikes of any kind, but this is for the good cause , so I do support them, as they defend my way of life too.

His dudeness

20th May 2016, 07:12

i do not like what this ultra liberal Trump-like society wants to achieve both economically and socially in the end. All working for minimal wages 15h a day 6 days a week like in the 1850, (or like in Ethiopia or Erithrea today ) ?

The voice of reason.

Our societies are vulnerable to be exploited, mainly because we thought we can make it right and then sit back and let life pass by.

Never underestimate greed.

Having said that, one thing that makes me really cringe is the apparent incapability of some governments employers and workforces alike to find a compromise that works and works for time longer than one shift in Paris ATC center....

If the french ATC wants to change french labour and social laws, how about penalizing just french tails ? What do they think, we non-french victims of their doings can do to change anything IN France ? Especially considering its being France where any intervention from other countries just produces outcries of "Vive la France, vive la grande Nation", we do as we please etcetc....

Hotel Tango

20th May 2016, 08:31

What do they think, we non-french victims of their doings can do to change anything IN France ?

We personally can't do anything of course. But, if their actions impact trade and economies in other countries, the theory is that their governments can put pressure on the French government to get their house in order.

Wander00

20th May 2016, 10:01

At a personal level, this is getting beyond a joke - a fortnight ago I was delayed in UK for 3 days by French ATC strike fortunately I could stay with friends and did not have to fork out for 3 nights in a hotel. In 5 weeks my eldest son is getting married in Spain, he lives in UK. If travel is disrupted then his and his finacee's wedding could be ruined, as no-one from UK would be able to get to Spain. We could actually get there by car!

Flying Clog

20th May 2016, 11:52

Yup, so go by car, what's the problem?

wiggy

20th May 2016, 12:00

Errr, quite possibly this:

France Braces for Potential Halt of Oil Refineries Amid Strike - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-19/france-braces-for-potential-halt-of-oil-refineries-amid-strike)

I'd refer anyone planning on traveling through or to France in the next month or so to captain playstation's absolutely spot on comment earlier in the thread that: "There are bigger things brewing in France, and it won't just be ATC on strike as this Summer progresses."

TBH whilst this action (ATC and most especially elsewhere) has some public sympathy (workers rights and all that) the bigger issue here is the fight between the major syndicats (unions), such as the CGT, and Mr Valls over who really runs the economy and the country, so this could go on and on this summer....and TBF even the locals, especially those not in unions or working for the public sector, are getting p****d off with their travel plans being interfered with.

galaxy flyer

21st May 2016, 23:03

I don't mind them going I strike; I just don't see where their employer doesn't have an equal and opposite right to fire them. Who is the Boss here--the employee or employer?

I say that as someone who went on strike (major air carrier) and assumed my action was the functional equivalent of a resignation. I moved on to another chapter, they disappeared.

Standby Scum

22nd May 2016, 00:32

Hotel Tango

22nd May 2016, 09:56

His dudeness

22nd May 2016, 13:37

This is why airlines have closed say their catering department and subcontracted out. The gimme gimme unions have shot themselves in the foot. How can you have the bread buttering department shut down an airline.

I´d say your view is very shortsighted. If you live on a continent that tries to get together and has 28 different social and labour laws, the workforce is subject to real problems in terms of competition. The employers on the other hand do have a golden opportunity in exploiting their workforce and the big, big handle of "if you don´t obey I´ll move next door".

Now, one can sit back and let that happen, or not. France has a very good example right at their doorstep: Germany, were the labour and contract laws have been twisted in a way, that we do have a lot of employed people, but employed for wages were they can´t live off, can´t get anything aside for retirement etcetc. which will lead to massive amounts of poor people in a few years. All for the sake of profits of people that don´t get taxed properly or can evade said taxes, the prime example being Amazon that pays 0,9% in Luxembourg, whilst ruining the small shop in the inner cities in all european countries. Said shops pay up to 30% taxes and their employees are usually native people that could live and pay into the pension funds, unemployment insurance etcetc.

It is high time that the european people (and IMO the americans too) put an end to this. But instead some think voting for a billionaire will make things any better for them. The european politicians are a disgusting bunch of lobbyists and hardly disguised speaks persons for large corporations, which are the main winners of our legislative process by not democratically elected persons such as Jean-Claude Juncker & the likes...

We need to go back to system were one cannot easily make more money simply by having money, but were employing people makes one earn it.

Council Van

22nd May 2016, 20:18

What was all the fuss about.

Strike before this one, on time departure to and from Spain, this strike just a 20 min slot departing the UK and on time, no slot departure coming back with an early arrival back home.

Wander00

23rd May 2016, 10:47

I was surprised that Ryanair seemed to cancel everything on 28 April, whereas Sleazy flew Gatwick-Nantes with few problems. usually if French ATC striking our Stansted- La Rochelle flight seems to toddle down the coast and turn left at the Ile de Re. Simples - but not that time - maybe it was part of his campaign to make strikes by controllers illegal - but I suspect he is dreaming there

papazulu

23rd May 2016, 13:49

In a truly free market, if you don't show up for work I am allowed to fire you and hire someone else willing to do the job.

Then we wonder why t&cs keep dropping year after year...

Be careful with what you wish for. Maybe one day yourself or your kids will be at the receiving end of what you envisage.

galaxy flyer

23rd May 2016, 21:38

HT

Not necessary to fire anyone, but the possibility might be cause some useful timidity. We seemed to recover with some painful ATC conservatism. I flew thru the US strike recovery and it wasn't easy, but doable.

speedbird_481_papa

24th May 2016, 08:29

French are at it again on thursday:

Eurocontrol Public Flow portal (https://www.public.nm.eurocontrol.int/PUBPORTAL/gateway/spec/index.html)

I fear this may become a weekly occurrence? How much has all this striking cost airlines across Europe already this year?

wiggy

24th May 2016, 08:57

speedbird

I fear this may become a weekly occurrence?

As mentioned elsewhere on Pprune it as all kicked off here over the last few days and certainly passengers arriving at French airports, especially in the north, picking up a hire car need a bit of a fuel plan. Rumours are that as yet aircraft refuelling won't be effected - at the major airports.

captplaystation

24th May 2016, 09:14

As you say, just a matter of time before flights to France will be round-trip fuel (payload permitting) or a Tech stop to add to the joy

French labour dispute: Strike hits all eight oil refineries - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36366912?post_id=10205584440962314_10208275515597498#_=_)

Wander00

24th May 2016, 09:52

Supermarkets in our area (Vendee) allow €30 worth of fuel a visit, up nearer Nantes it was €25 - but it is set by the Prefecture of the Departement - there are reports of petrol stations further north running out

fox niner

24th May 2016, 21:20

Just heard that plans are made for the ENTIRE aviation community to go on strike in France, on 3-4-5th of June.

MrDK

25th May 2016, 13:28

galaxy flyer, the problem is that replacing air traffic controllers takes time. Even if you take on licensed controllers from other sources/countries, they have to train and validate on multiple sectors in a completely new environment. That may take up to two years. A type qualified pilot can be hired and fly the line in a much shorter period of time than that.

Ronald Reagan proved that wrong. He fired 11,000 ATC employees. Within days operation was at 80% and a lifetime ban was imposed on all strikers from being rehired.
Little or no problem since ... unlike France where this almost seems to be a seasonal occurrence and collectively probably al lot worse over the years than the "end it all" in 1981 in the US.

spoon84

25th May 2016, 13:42

I can understand the frustating feelings of passengers and people who has a link with the french collegues. I admire their tough position against a system (global) that take our rights out of window, if we can't fight and accept everything we will end in :mad:. Look a global economy, it's just crap. Everything is open, global, liberal but nothing get really better, we still have a big poverty in the third world, in EU & USA we have a strong crisis and we still belive (some of us) that we still have to open the market!?!? Are we blind and can't understand that the open market will make happy the richest in the world and make us argue between us and fiight to have a little job, which should be paid less because it's still an open market.... I'm young, I am positive but I see the future not bright and happy, not only for ATC, but in general I can see difficulties for all the stakeholders involved in aviaton, especially airlines.

I support the french ATC, they should try to lower the days of strikes but they have rights which are going to be fight, Ryanair isn't even possible to mention on this, because they take advantage of the good job of ATCO (shortcuts, no delay, ect...) and than they collect sign to force ATCO to dont strike!?! a bit contraddictory... Next time I will ask Ryanair to put more fuel on board so they dont need to ask priority on landing!

strake

25th May 2016, 15:11

There's no fuel problems in Charente Maritime. As far as the strikes are concerned, the French unions have for years, successfully fought off any attempt to change their working conditions. A TGV train driver retires at 50. If he has at least 15 years service, he will have been earning 6000€ per month when employed. Upon retirement, he receives a pension of 4000€ per month - tax free. On top of this, he, his wife, children, parents and siblings travel at free or vastly reduced rates. He and his family travel First class free. He gets subsidised electricity. Were he to work in the electricity industry, it would be free. A college lecturer earns 6000 per month. After tax, he takes home 2400€. Fair it ain't and the government has decided to stop it.

ATC Watcher

25th May 2016, 19:56

Interesting comments . Are some of you living in France to benefit from a certain lifestyle and benefits you do not get in your home country ?
if it is the case, it is a bit hypocritical no ?

Strake : A TGV train driver retires at 50. If he has at least 15 years service, he will have been earning 6000€ per month when employed. Upon retirement, he receives a pension of 4000€ per month - tax free

And where is the problem ? jealousy perhaps ? Anyway the strikes in this topic are not about trains but ATC.
The reasons for next week ATC strike are not about the new labour law causing disruptions and demonstrations in the Country.
For those interested the reasons of the strike are are :
Freeze of recruitment for last 8 years despite raise of traffic of 5% /year .
No more investment in new technologyin last 10 years .
Better retirement conditions.

Source : SNCTA : Le Blog des Contrôleurs (http://www.sncta.fr/)

MrDK : Ronald Reagan proved that wrong. He fired 11,000 ATC employees. Within days operation was at 80% and a lifetime ban was imposed on all strikers from being rehired.
Little or no problem since ..

Where did you get this from ? I did live through 1981 and the aftermath and I know my facts which are quite different . It took months to rebuild the system to 80% not days and it took 20 years to rebuild normal working relations within the FAA. Some facilities 25 years later were still forcing controllers on 6 days on/one off and as a result No-one cooperated with the FAA in that period and this is why you still have basically an old 1980 ATC technical system in the US. Nobody in his right mind today wants to repeat this . Definitively not in the US.

MrDK

26th May 2016, 02:29

"Where did you get this from ?"

Reagan fires 11000 striking air traffic controllers Aug. 5, 1981 - Politico (http://www.politico.com/story/2008/08/reagan-fires-11-000-striking-air-traffic-controllers-aug-5-1981-012292)

I jumped to conclusion a bit saying "days" the article reports: "To the chagrin of the strikers, the FAA’s contingency plans worked. Some 3,000 supervisors joined 2,000 nonstriking controllers and 900 military controllers in manning airport towers. Before long, about 80 percent of flights were operating normally. Air freight remained virtually unaffected.".

neila83

26th May 2016, 04:57

God forbid people try to protect their pay and conditions. I never understand the willingness of some to defend a corporate entity trampling all over its employees, over those said people.

Unions are important. No individual can negotiate with a corporate monolith fairly, unions give some (but still nowhere near) balance to the equation.

Go and look at the middle East forum and see what they all think of how management treat them. Ironically many of them are probably anti-union in their home country, so I guess you reap what you sow.

Anyway it's generally useless debating any of this with anyone who's been brainwashed to believe socialism is a dirty word just to protect a system designed for 1% of the population. Hint, where are living standards highest? Scandinavia.

wiggy

26th May 2016, 06:22

Unions are important. No individual can negotiate with a corporate monolith fairly, unions give some (but still nowhere near) balance to the equation.

Agreed, and as ATC watcher has mentioned the French ATC action is separate from wider unrest.

However the more widespread problems France is having at the moment is being driven by those leading the CGT. Their actions and motives may well be much more politically motivated and IMHO there are parallels with what happened in the early 70's in the UK...and we know what happened to unions and union membership after that.

Union influence is often a good thing but it needs to be used wisely.

Del Prado

26th May 2016, 07:57

In 1973 the French military replaced striking civil controllers with devastating results.

Nantes mid air collision (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Nantes_mid-air_collision)

MrDK

26th May 2016, 08:17

kcockayne

26th May 2016, 11:01

Fine words, DK; but NOT the whole story !

Alain67

26th May 2016, 13:16

In 1973 the French military replaced striking civil controllers with devastating results.

Nantes mid air collision (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Nantes_mid-air_collision)
Well, before that, and after that, there has been lots of devastating accidents while genuine ATC guys were doing the job.

neila83

26th May 2016, 13:48

**** Unions are important. No individual can negotiate with a corporate monolith fairly, unions give some (but still nowhere near) balance to the equation. ****

When I moved to the US I earned $1000/month (1983).
20 years later I managed $12,000 per month with a fortune 500.
No one but I got me there.
Fell on my ass later, but blame I no one.

Employees should be valued on their own merit and not on the ability to be collectively destructive.

One only has to wonder why so few unions have not started their own corporations, being it an airline, a shipping company, an automobile manufacture, etc.

So are you saying if everyone just tried a bit harder they'd all be earning $12,000 a more then?

Believe it or not, not everyone wants to work for a fortune 500 company - many of us can think of nothing worse. Many people choose to do something they are passionate about and they feel has value. I'm sure there are many smarter people in atc making less than a lot of less competent people in fortune 500 companies.

All the evidence shows the USA is probably the least merit based economy in the developed world. I'm not saying it applies to you, but it's been shown time and time again, most people in well paid positions are NOT there on merit, though obviously they convince themselves they are. Social immobility means it doesn't matter how hard a lot of people try, the cards are so stacked against them it becomes night on impossible to improve. And of course the US economy is built on corporations paying a lot of people a pittance, however many smart people there are.

People generally just want to be valued, and not endlessly be the ones getting shafted when management screws up and needs to save money, or just protect its own dividend. Management of course never diminishes it's own terms, unions at least provide a means of neogitiation, otherwise a worker has nobe, which seems like market failure to me.

It's really sad how some people support the race the bottom, aren't we supposed to be progressing as a civilisation? Capitalists love talking about Go and do some, bit at the same time think people should put up with less?

Del Prado

26th May 2016, 14:34

Well, before that, and after that, there has been lots of devastating accidents while genuine ATC guys were doing the job.

Very true but I think the incidence rate is much lower when genuine ATC guys are doing the job.

ExXB

26th May 2016, 15:04

From the local Media: Switzerland still unaffected by fuel blockades

Berne could release some of the country’s fuel reserves if shortages in France persists.

The Federal Office for the National Economic Supply (OFAE ) say at the moment the blocking of the refineries in France has not affected Switzerland and supplies are guaranteed.

But since last weekend gas stations at the borders have seen an influx of cars with French plates coming through as the pumps in France start to run dry.

The OFAE are monitoring the situation but say it’s not yet as bad as November 2015 following the temporary shutdown of the Cressier Refinery.

Most of Switzerland’s petrol and diesel fuel comes from Germany and the Netherlands – and there are enough reserves to last 4 months .

If the problem persists however, Geneva Airport, would be first on the list for the reserves, but currently supplies at Cointrin are not a problem.

GVA receives its aviation fuel from France by pipeline.

MrDK

26th May 2016, 16:47

*** Believe it or not, not everyone wants to work for a fortune 500 company - many of us can think of nothing worse ***

That would include Delta Air Lines, American Airlines Group, United Continental Holdings, Southwest Airlines, JetBlue Airways and Alaska Air Group.

strake

26th May 2016, 18:38

A TGV train driver retires at 50. If he has at least 15 years service, he will have been earning 6000€ per month when employed. Upon retirement, he receives a pension of 4000€ per month - tax free
And where is the problem ? jealousy perhaps ? Anyway the strikes in this topic are not about trains but ATC.

As you well know, that wasn't the point I was making. It is the fact that these incredibly over-generous work practises for 'special' and government employed (including ATC) staff are paid for by other workers which is unfair and has to be stopped.