Sheer Incompetence? Why would CASA and Airservices go for a less safe ADS-B system?

[Dick Smith]

I am still attempting to get ADS-B for the Citation – which I haven’t been able to sell, and I am now finding out the CASA standard is an inferior ADS-B system without a special warning light on the panel. This warning light is required in the USA and other leading aviation countries.

Why would CASA do this? To lead the world by 3-5 years but then to have an inferior, less safe unit. Surely this special annunciator panel, that is mandatory in other leading aviation countries, must be there for safety reasons.

It appears that if any of us fit an Australian approved unit, we will not be able to sell our aircraft back to the USA or other countries in the Northern Hemisphere without having the equipment removed.

This is an absolute disaster!

Can anyone give any sense to this stupidity?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Sorry mate....You'll get no reasonable response from the ex RAAF / CASA
'decision makers' who have never had to put their hand in their own pocket to finance any of their own 'decisions'.....

And the other services' mentality is not exempt either....a certain Navy helicopter comes to mind....and wait for it......dare I mention, submarines..???

No Cheers :mad:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Just curious Dick, having flown with ADSB for a couple of years, what does the warning light annunciate?

Dr :8

[Snakecharma]

Dick,

What does this annunciatior annunciate?

I ask as the jets I fly have ads-b out and you wouldn't know by looking at the centre console or instrument panel.

The ads-b is controlled by the transponder control head and that makes no mention of ads-b, there are no ads-b specific messages on the ecam that I am aware of, and there are no ads-b specific lights/annunciation on any panel.

These jets are not modified in any way for Australia and the same applies to the 737, 777 and other Boeing jets as far as I am aware.

It seems odd that rpt jets have no requirement for an annunciate relating to ads-b but other aircraft do.

[KRviator]

Methinks Dick is referring to the Garmin requirement for an ADS-B status annunciator for certain systems.


Best I can tell, the FAA doesn't require it for everyone. Certainly the RV crowd in the US don't have them!


Why do they require it? Because if you taxi before the GPS has started navigating, you'll confuse the heck out of TAATS as the onboard ADS-B system "thinks" you are in the air and broadcasts as such, until such time as it realizes you aren't in the air. This can cause much angst for ATC'ers and 737 captains who suddenly get an RA on finals to 16L because Dick is taxiing at the GA apron.


Here's a link to the Garmin SB describing it (http://garmin.blogs.com/aviationalerts/2016/05/service-advisory-1629-airground-status.html)

[Dick Smith]

To clarify the above – it appears in Australia the approved unit is DO260A.

Whereas for the USA and other leading aviation countries in the Northern Hemisphere a DO260B unit is required.

The B unit requires an extra annunciator that shows that the ADS-B is working correctly.

I understand that AOPA in the USA have agreed that the B unit is the only way to go to enable the required level of safety.

So why would we be taking shortcuts and reducing safety in this way?

Of course, if we wait until one year after the ADS-B mandate comes into the USA, the prices will no doubt drop dramatically - just as they did after the CB radio 40 channel change came into the USA. Prices in that case dropped by 50%.

[KRviator]

I'd be asking your dealer to upgrade the software. The transponder I have was initially a DO260A-compliant device, which, with a firmware upgrade, now complies with DO260B.

[Dick Smith]

It's not a Garmin requirement. The extra indicator is a certification requirement. All US units have to be - B. Why doesn't CASA require this safety item? Surely someone must have an answer or was it caused because of the rushed decision!

[KRviator]

The extra indicator is a certification requirement. All US units have to be - B.So buy a-B unit if you want to sell the Citation to a US buyer. Mine is. I don't even think I could find a transponder that meets the -A requirements these days. Dynon (with their Trig-based transponder) went to -B years ago (2011 IIRC)...


Oh, BTW, the FAA allows non-certified position sources to be used for ADS-B. Non-certified! :eek: We don't. Does that mean we are better than they are because we forbid it?!? :\ Would you really trust a hockey-puck GPS with no certification or proof-of-compliance-to-anything to keep your Citation and my RV separated in cloud?


Perhaps CASA should simply mandate that any aircraft that requires this special-light-required equipment configuration be disallowed from Australian airspace? Surely that will be safer than a simple warning light (that is often overlooked - look at the numerous B200 climbing-while-unpressurised events and many others besides) to mitigate against a system limitation?

[Ultralights]

CASA is not about safety, or the safest, or the cheapest, CASA is 100% about protecting CASA. nothing less, nothing more.

[Car RAMROD]

You need an annunciator light to tell you that the ADSB isn't working?
Want your hand held too for the rest of your flying operation?

Pfft..

[Lead Balloon]

How will we know if the ADS-B failure annunciator light has itself failed after pre-flight test?

Surely we need an annunciator light failure annunciator light.

[Plazbot]

Well this is just rediculous DICK, I'm sure you will agree.

[rutan around]

Interesting.

New FAA Policy Simplifies ADS-B Installations | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2016-05-16/new-faa-policy-simplifies-ads-b-installations)Does this tend to indicate that waiting a few more years may be the best option?

[Dick Smith]

Clear that by going early we get an inferior system.

Each quote I have received for the citation makes it clear that the system will not be approved for operation if the aircraft is sold back to the USA.

Remember , no existing safety issue is being addressed by going early on ADSB.

Any more info on the mandate being delayed as per the AOPA request as supported by Senator Xenophan ?

[Dick Smith]

Yes. Because the money could be better used to improve safety elsewhere. Like investing in more modern aircraft.

[rutan around]

Really, do you really believe that the money would be spend on more modern aircraft.Well at the very least the money could be used to prevent more aircraft from joining the ever increasing number tied down with grass growing around them higher than the doors. In any case why pay more now for a product inferior to one which will likely become available in a few years? To do so is just a nonsense being pushed by some chest beaters that don't actually have have to stump up a cent from their own pockets.

[Car RAMROD]

Well if they got ADSB wouldn't they be more modern?
Then they wouldn't have to be tied down in the grass any more...

:}

[Dick Smith]

Can someone from CASA or AsA come on this thread and advise what the differences are and why we went for ,the so called, less safe system?

Is their a measurable cost saving?

Or was this caused by Australia wanting to be first?

[Dick Smith]

Sunny. If we hadn't made the savings the GA industry would even be in more of a downturn .

[le Pingouin]

Dick, you're the one forcefully asserting that it's less safe so how about you explaining why this is so in the context of the utilisation of ADS-B in Australia?

[Dick Smith]

Cheapest quote I can get is over $220,000 and they can't guarantee will meet FAA standards and I am presently attempting to sell the aircraft- most likely to a US buyer.

A Garmin mod may be able to be done for about $ 50,000 but will result in an amber message on the panel and CASA will no longer allow.

If I can get a sale in the US they don't want ADSB for another three years and don't want to have the useless expenditure now.

[Car RAMROD]

So if your trying to sell the citation in the states, and they don't need adsb for a while, why are you complaining so much? Just sell it!

And it's only "so called less safe" by you.

[Dick Smith]

Le Ping. I will sell to anyone but so far no takers. It's a catch 22. If I fit the Aus ADSB no doubt I will then get a sale from the USA and it will have to be removed Crazy.

Nearly had a sale in Aus but the extra cost of ADSB and a FDR made it too expensive for the buyer. No FDR required in the USA even for charter .

[gerry111]

Dick,

Here's an idea if you genuinely want to sell your Citation: Fly it over to the USA before the CASA ADSB requirement comes in. (Obviously you'll have more chance finding a buyer there than here.)

And then we can all have some peace and quiet. :E

[le Pingouin]

Dick, who told you DO-206A was the standard required for Australian ADS-B? It's not. It's acceptable but DO-206B is preferred. I know nothing about avionics but Google is very handy......

"Is the USA’s 1090ES standard more recent than that adopted in Australia?

The United States Federal Aviation Regulations (14CFR 91.227) specify that 1090ES equipment installed in US aircraft must comply with the most recent TSO C166b (DO-260B) standard. Australia’s regulations allow greater flexibility, permitting TSO C-166b or TSO-C166a (DO 260A), and even most TSO-C166 (DO 260) designs. There are already many successful installations of TSO-C166b equipment in Australian aircraft that are fully operable with the Australian ATC system and also fully compliant with the US rule. Australia designed its systems to operate with a wider range of equipment so that the benefits available to the Australian aviation industry could be achieved with minimal delay. Equally, Australia has less demanding GPS requirements. Some airline TSO C129 GPS systems are acceptable, providing they have the appropriate functionality and output interfaces. Notwithstanding the above, TSO-C166b transponders and TSO C145 and C146 navigation systems are preferred.".
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/FAQ-ADS-B-1-11-MAY15.pdf

[Dick Smith]

" less demanding" requirements in Australia?

Far more demanding and costly because the mandate comes in years before the USA.

And this early mandate is not addressing any existing safety issue.

As I have said - get out of aviation now, before you lose even more.

Then Le Ping or his kids and grandkids may get a dose of what is being forced on GA. Only then will he see reason about the facts of affordability .

Now that would be justice! Even though bad for his descendants .

And don't forget the total selfish self interest of Airservices. They say we need mandatory ADSB because we don't have the surveillance coverage of the US- then to maximise profits haven't completed their end of the bargain and put in an adequate number of ground stations.

They put in 70 when 700 are needed. So we still don't have US type coverage even though we have the most expensive ADSB mandates in the world for GA.

[missy]

They put in 70 when 700 are needed.

Are you sure its only 70? Are you sure 700 are needed? And who would pay?

[le Pingouin]

I'm just a controller at the workface with zero influence on Airservices, CASA or government aviation policy so attacking me might make you feel good but will achieve nothing. And why attack my family?

I give you some information that might be correcting a misunderstanding on your part or some misinformation you've been given and could be to your advantage and you throw the above back in my face. Or are you just trolling? Nice.

I have sympathy for the costs to GA but as someone who isn't directly involved in GA who am I to put the argument? Even if I did I'd do a lousy job because I don't have the GA knowledge to back it up.

As it happens I'm ex-FS so I've had my dose of justice thanks very much. Forced down my throat 25 years ago by you personally. Yes, I converted to ATC but it came at considerable personal cost (I don't mean dollars).

[gerry111]

Dick,

How about Crowdfunding your Citation's ADS-B? :p

[fujii]

Is ADS-B the only reason Dick can't sell his Citation in the US? A quick search turned up a number of them for sale in the US. Why would someone there consider an unseen one from Australia?

[thorn bird]

"Why would someone there consider an unseen one from Australia?"
Exactly the point.
Those that have spent the money to have ADSB fitted to their aircraft in Australia now have a diminished asset. To sell it overseas where most of the market is for these types of used aircraft will cost almost as much as the original installation to have it removed because Australian EO's are not recognised in the real aviation world.
What was the "real" reason for mandating ADSB in Australia years ahead of the rest of the world? From what I read the cost, measured against benefit, does not stack up.

[Dick Smith]

I believe the prime reason for the early mandate was ego. That is being able to claim Australia led the world.

The boffins who pushed for this had no understanding of the damage that would be done to GA.

Needs to be reversed by Jeff Boyd and his Board. Can easily be done as long as they have not been captured by the bureaucracy.

[Lead Balloon]

How would Jeff Boyd and his Board reverse this? What powers does the CASA Board have? You, probably more than anyone else, should know the answer.

Jeff Boyd hasn't been captured.

He's been neutered.

One of the most experienced and credible of CASA's critics has been put in a position in which he has no power but the industry believes he does.

A master stroke by the people who run CASA.

They played it on you, remember?

[genex]

Dick.....everything is getting worse everywhere and its always someone else's fault. ADSB came too early, or too late, with warning lights or without, too dear or too cheap. Too many ground stations or too few. Oh dear. :-( Maybe this will help.......an anthem for those terminally oppressed and gloomy

(as for me, bring back VARs and FSUs)

SAID HANRAHAN

"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
In accents most forlorn,
Outside the church, ere Mass began,
One frosty Sunday morn.

The congregation stood about,
Coat-collars to the ears,
And talked of stock, and crops, and drought,
As it had done for years.
"It's lookin' crook," said Daniel Croke;
"Bedad, it's cruke, me lad,
For never since the banks went broke
Has seasons been so bad."
"It's dry, all right," said young O'Neil,
With which astute remark
He squatted down upon his heel
And chewed a piece of bark.
And so around the chorus ran
"It's keepin' dry, no doubt."
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out.

"The crops are done; ye'll have your work
To save one bag of grain;
From here way out to Back-o'-Bourke
They're singin' out for rain.
"They're singin' out for rain," he said,
"And all the tanks are dry."
The congregation scratched its head,
And gazed around the sky.
"There won't be grass, in any case,
Enough to feed an ass;
There's not a blade on Casey's place
As I came down to Mass."
"If rain don't come this month," said Dan,
And cleared his throat to speak--
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If rain don't come this week."

A heavy silence seemed to steal
On all at this remark;
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed a piece of bark.
"We want a inch of rain, we do,"
O'Neil observed at last;
But Croke "maintained" we wanted two
To put the danger past.
"If we don't get three inches, man,
Or four to break this drought,
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."

In God's good time down came the rain;
And all the afternoon
On iron roof and window-pane
It drummed a homely tune.
And through the night it pattered still,
And lightsome, gladsome elves
On dripping spout and window-sill
Kept talking to themselves.
It pelted, pelted all day long,
A-singing at its work,
Till every heart took up the song
Way out to Back-o'Bourke.
And every creek a banker ran,
And dams filled overtop;
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If this rain doesn't stop."

And stop it did, in God's good time;
And spring came in to fold
A mantle o'er the hills sublime
Of green and pink and gold.
And days went by on dancing feet,
With harvest-hopes immense,
And laughing eyes beheld the wheat
Nid-nodding o'er the fence.
And, oh, the smiles on every face,
As happy lad and lass
Through grass knee-deep on Casey's place
Went riding down to Mass.
While round the church in clothes genteel
Discoursed the men of mark,
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed his piece of bark.
"There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man,
There will, without a doubt;
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."

John O'Brien

[rutan around]

Genex if no one ever complained how does change for the better come about?

If you think we should just harden and blindly accept every ill considered "Captains Call" thrust upon us by those holding power in aviation, then you either haven't thought about it very well or you subscribe to the old saw "Every man for himself cried the elephant as he danced among the chickens".