Aus Airline Requiements Foreign ATPL and Theory Requirements

[increase.descent]

Hi All,

Wondering if anyone is in the know / has the facts on entry requirements on a foreign ATPL;

I hold a CASA CPL, have held a MECIR some years ago, but do not hold any ATPL theory credits.

Currently hold a foreign ICAO ATPL with a B777 P1 rating.

I have not yet undertaken the time consuming and expensive process of converting my foreign ATPL to an CASA ATPL.

With regards to the theory requirements for most Australian carriers, does anyone know for sure if they would accept a foreign ATPL with the 3 CASA ATPL theory conversion credits. This puts me in the same position as upgrading my CASA CPL via the full 7 ATPL credits - being all that is needed for the upgrade is the flight test (and maybe MCC course if they pull out the red tape).

Obviously ideally would have the full conversion done beforehand. But just incase, any advice appreciated.

Cheers

[roundsounds]

I suggest you email your question to CASA Flight Crew Licencing, any response you get from here will be best guess and possibly based on outdated info. CASA have a task force working on correcting a long list of "unintended consequences" as the result of the introduction of CASR Part 61, ATPL overseas conversion is on the list.
Try: [email protected]

Then you could go to the airline with the CASA direction, the airlines will have no idea of what's required to convert a foreign ATPL. Most Australian carriers will want at least CPL, IR-MEA and valid ATPL subjects as a minimum or current Australian ATPL.

[increase.descent]

Thanks roundsounds,

More so wondering how the airlines might view it from an application / minimum requirements perspective - or if anyone has been in a similar boat?

I've been in contact with CASA regarding the conversion:

- 3 ATPL Conversion Theory exams required
- MCC course (may be waived if they consider previous airline exp).
- ATPL flight test, the same as a CPL to ATPL upgrade test.

The flight test is really the hookup, working full time overseas; trying to arrange a 777 sim, CASA ATO, time off work and colleague also with time off to come sit in the other seat. Easier said than done.

The way I see it, holding a CASA CPL / MECIR AND a foreign ATPL with the 3 conversion theory credits puts you in exactly the same position as holding a CASA CPL / MECIR with the 7 normal theory credits. Simply waiting for the flight test to effect the upgrade in both cases. However I dare say the airlines won't see it that simply.

Hopefully find the time to just do the flight test soon.

[thorn bird]

Might I suggest you inquire about the Kiwi requirements. I dont know if much has changed,I converted to a Kiwi ATPL some years ago and it was fairly painless. The trans tasman agreement recognises the Kiwi qualification, if I'm not mistaken.

[Tankengine]

In the past Qantas has had passes in all Australian theory subjects required.
No idea if this will change for future intakes.
..

Thanks roundsounds,

More so wondering how the airlines might view it from an application / minimum requirements perspective - or if anyone has been in a similar boat?

I've been in contact with CASA regarding the conversion:

- 3 ATPL Conversion Theory exams required
- MCC course (may be waived if they consider previous airline exp).
- ATPL flight test, the same as a CPL to ATPL upgrade test.

The flight test is really the hookup, working full time overseas; trying to arrange a 777 sim, CASA ATO, time off work and colleague also with time off to come sit in the other seat. Easier said than done.

The way I see it, holding a CASA CPL / MECIR AND a foreign ATPL with the 3 conversion theory credits puts you in exactly the same position as holding a CASA CPL / MECIR with the 7 normal theory credits. Simply waiting for the flight test to effect the upgrade in both cases. However I dare say the airlines won't see it that simply.

Hopefully find the time to just do the flight test soon.

[B772]

When we do not recognise an ICAO ATPL with a B777 P1 rating something must be wrong. No wonder Australia is becoming a backward country with endless regulation and red tap from a regulator that has lost the plot. Time to introduce the FAA rules and regulations.

[Kopity]

If converting US-CASA proves too difficult, maybe try the US-NZ-CASA process.

I have never held a FAA licence but if converting US-NZ is easy, I can however inform you that NZ-CASA is about $250NZD and pretty painless as simply a paperwork exercise.

[increase.descent]

Thanks Thorn Bird,

Care to elaborate on the NZCAA conversion? Hope I am missing something but I thought the process for conversion was similar to Australia, as outlined on their website.

https://www.caa.govt.nz/pilots/Flight_Crew_Recognition_Info.pdf

[umop apisdn]

I had a glorious idea of going to the USA to get an unrestricted FAA ATPL and then convert it back to CASA. Does this still require a flight test? How ridiculous.

The FAA - NZ - CASA route seems like a good idea.

[thorn bird]

Descent,

I'm not terribly current with the new stuff, except CASA's determination to wipe out aviation in Australia.
It was about twenty years ago I did the Kiwi conversion. Couple of painless exams and a B767 sim ride with Air NZ. Whole thing cost about a grand and took a couple of weeks, very good fly fishing in between the books. NZ CAA very very helpful compared with Aus, the NZ licence seemed to be better accepted around the world as well.

[Capt Chambo]

FWIW

I did my foreign licence conversion to an Australian ATPL about 5 years ago.
Before I began I had read that some operators would not employ you if your new Australian ATPL was converted from an FAA ATP. I had a European ATPL as well as an FAA ATP so chose to convert my JAR ATPL, and avoid that potential banana skin!

Step 1: CASA evaluate your experience by validating your log books. At the same time they need to confirm the validity of the foreign licence. To do this they need permission to contact your foreign licence regulator. You will need to give them permission to release your data to CASA, and pay any necessary fees.

Step 2: CASA will write to you detailing the steps you need to take to make the conversion. Your situation sounds very similar to mine, and I was required to do a CPL air law exam, an ATPL air law exam (yes you have to do both!), you will need to do an initial medical exam, for an ATPL that will be a Class 1. Again presuming you want an ATPL then you will need to do the IREX exam, and a human factors exam. You may be still in credit on those, but I believe that there is now a 3 year limit on the written exams, only CASA will be able to confirm this. I didn't need to do an MCC course/exam. You will then need to either revalidate your MECIR or re-sit the initial. I was required to do only one non-precision approach for the issue of the licence, you may also need to do a type rating on the multi that you intend to do the test in.

if you need to do an initial MECIR then, it is possible to do the MECIR flight test in an approved simulator if you meet CASA's experienced heavy crew minimums. In my case there was no one qualified to do an initial MECIR so I ended up renting a light twin. Interestingly when I contacted the gentleman in CASA responsible for foreign licence conversions he didn't know anything about this new relief allowing experienced crew doing their MECIR tests to be allowed to do them in a simulator!

Now since then I know a lot has changed....

There is now a time limit on the validity of written exams (3 years I think!).
Australian operators are moving towards a more European style of checking and training, in that your training is tied to your training organisation (TRTO), in other words it is getting harder to arrange an examiner and a simulator to do the MECIR as an individual. You may have to go down the light aeroplane rental road if you need to re-do your MECIR.

Hope that helps

[increase.descent]

Thanks Chambo,

Tbh it's all a bit of a clusterf@$k. It is acceptable for me to operate my foreign 777 into and within Australia, but paint a different number on the fuselage, now I'm no longer competent.

With regards to issue of the the licence, the information I have is similar, current MECIR and then a ATPL flight test done in an approved 777 sim with a suitable ATO. This is the time consuming and painstaking part to organise. Frustrating, given that I do my PCs every six months with checkers that are mainly Ex Aussie checkers/trainers.

My real interest though is if any Aus airlines would accept an application from me with a CASA CPL / MECIR, ICAO ATPL, and the conversion exam credits - Ie. locked and loaded to get the CASA ATPL as soon as I get a flight test booked in (or ideally the rules change and a PC in Australia can be considered for an ATPL flight test). From a qualifications perspective I can't see how this makes me any less qualified than a guy with CASA CPL / MECIR and the full 7 credits (the subjects which I already had to endure as part of a aviation degree in Aus).

In the mean time I better go brush up on my Duchess Instrument flying skills so I can prove I'm somewhat competent in a multi crew widebody. :ugh:

[Capt Chambo]

My real interest though is if any Aus airlines would accept an application from me with a CASA CPL / MECIR, ICAO ATPL, and the conversion exam credits - Ie. locked and loaded to get the CASA ATPL as soon as I get a flight test booked

Again FWIW....

I was planning the same strategy but found that I couldn't get past various HR departments until I had an Ozzie ATPL in my hands. Felt that a couple of job opportunities were slipping through my fingers so bit the bullet and did the medical, did the MECIR flight test and then when I had the Oz ATPL, got the interview, got the job.

[Ollie Onion]

That might be where you are better off doing the NZ conversion, you have to sit ATPL Air Law, do a medical and then arrange an ATPL flight test in the Air NZ 777 simulator. All easily organised and once you have the NZ ATPL you can use the TTMRA to get the CASA ATPL issued.

When I converted I went the CASA route and it was a bloody nightmare dealing with them. 1/2 way through the conversion I wished I had gone the NZ route.

I think you will have a very hard time getting airlines to accept the conversion argument, why would they. I know what you have is the same if not better than a CPL with exam passes but unfortunately in this day and age of non-aviation HR managers you will be excluded as soon as you say you don't have all ATPL credits.

On the other hand, why not just do all the ATPL exams and forget the conversion?

[Metro man]

Going off to another country to do your ATPL as an Australian pilot is looked down on by many operators as taking the easy option, however a foreign pilot coming to Australia has no option but to convert his licence and won't face the same prejudice but not having passed the local exams will go against him.

Back in the early 2000s, Virgin Blue weren't bothered as long as you had the correct ticket but then a few converted applicants showed deffencies and the Aussie exams were required from then on. A few people with FAA to CASA ATPLs wrote all the subjects to have the exam credits listed on their printout. Some failed and had their licences reduced to CPL because of it.

[Square Bear]

Metro man, I wonder if the prejudice will exist ATM, due to the minimal amount of ATPL's that have been issued in AUS recently. Especially if one presents with many command hours on a current jet.

WRT to those that had a "converted FAA to CASA" writing he CASA Subjects, I believe it got to the point where CASA would not allow it as if one already had an AUS ATPL (albeit converted) why would one need to do ATPL exams.

That became a trap for some talented, but perhaps impatient or otherwise, guys.

[increase.descent]

On the other hand, why not just do all the ATPL exams and forget the conversion?

Trying to find the most efficient method given I have to fly back to Aus to sit each exam or utilise a block of leave. Still, it may end up being the most viable option if the flight test continues to be wrapped in red tape. :ugh:

Metro man:

I wouldnt disagree that may be the view of the airlines here. Having been through 3 systems, (even doing the CASA ATPL syllabus as part of my Bachelors Aviation Degree) Ive found they all have the same basic knowledge requirements. However, every state has there own unique niche and subtleties they like to focus on (727 flight planning being ours :rolleyes: ). Without a thorough theory course or guys really putting in the effort in to get their head around the unique requirements, it's easy to make anyone look incompetent, or inept, when they are in fact highly knowledgeable and skilled pilots.

In terms of the flying side of things, having done many thousands of hours previously in Aus on my CPL, well exceeding the ATPL hours requirement and still operating a widebody into Aus on a monthly basis, I find it laughable in this day and age that airlines in Australia would rate an overseas ATPL from a reputable ICAO state as "the easy way".

Prior to the licensing changes, we had guys flying Duchesses around in Aus - in day VMC - until they had enough hours for the licence to be posted to them.

Compare that to operating a heavy jet internationally, through airspace so congested the only way to deviate around weather is to declare a pan, ATC that is so poor they can't pronounce the letters CPDLC, or you get cleared to climb head on into opposite direction traffic. Airports that are so slot restricted, a 10 hour gate hold is common. In one flight, taking off in a borderline typhoon, rerouting around volcanic ash enroute and landing at 330 tonnes, CAT 3B in a -30 degree North American snow storm. Having to deal with outport engineers that are only interested in what's for grabs in the galley and look to you for which MEL to dispatch under.

Further to that all the reputable ICAO states now require flight testing for ATPLs in line with international / CASA standards. So there is really no difference in the licensing requirements - except for maybe minor differences theory / air law syllabi.

No disrespect meant at all to Aussie pilots, you are all probably twice as skilled as us expats. But the fact of the matter is the operating environment down in Aus (ATC being the exception ;) ) is a siesta compared to most reaches of the globe.

To think airlines here would assume that an ICAO ATPL and wide body experience with a reputable carrier in a reputable state, was any lesser value than a guy who got his CASA ATPL flying boxes around Aus in a Baron, is, quite frankly, absurd.

They don't do it better than everyone else, unfortunately.

Anyway, end rant. I will fall in line and get back to trying to meet the requirements of the system.

[Metro man]

What sort of a job are you thinking of getting once you get you licence done ?
Second officer at QF or Ejet/B737 F/O at Virgin will be a huge step down. I'm certain of spending the rest of my career abroad as even if I got straight into the left seat the financial penalties are too high if I went back.

[increase.descent]

What sort of a job are you thinking of getting once you get you licence done ?
Second officer at QF or Ejet/B737 F/O at Virgin will be a huge step down. I'm certain of spending the rest of my career abroad as even if I got straight into the left seat the financial penalties are too high if I went back.

Totally agree metro. From a financial perspective any of the positions you mentioned will be at least a 50 percent paycut. Even right to left seat, the finances don't add up as you mention. Not to mention the tax situation and the fact I could be due for a command in as little as 5 years.

It really comes down to my future (not that anyone wants to hear my sob story) - at a crossroads whether I will want to live out the rest of my career as an expat. Quite happy right now, but unsure if it will remain that way, so thinking it might be better to jump ship before seniority strangles me too much. Plus who's to say when the hiring situation would be favourable again - 5/10 years? That's my thinking is all.