Avoiding French Airspace?

[Autobahnstormer]

Gents,
my first posting in this thread so please be gentle: I notice that a lot of Airlines seem to avoid flying over France, specifically on internal routes, they appear to fly 'Round' French Airspace, overflyng Karlsruhe then following the border. I've noticed this a lot on FR24. Can somebody explain this phenomenon? I've heard some horror stories regarding transits over France.

[Porky Speedpig]

You should see just the opposite too - you will see UK airlines bound for Italy using French airspace to avoid the more direct route through Switzerland due to higher charges in that airspace. The airway passes almost directly over Geneva and heads towards Mont Blanc affording some great views. Single European Sky?

[kcockayne]

This is happening on a continuing basis. From what I understand, the reason is to avoid lengthy delays on the more direct routes through France. I've seen some real corkers eg. EHAM to LEMG coming in over CLN,SAM, LND & then out to 08W before tracking due South & land falling round about STG. I first saw this whilst working at LATCC in 1971 - so nothing changes ! In those days it was to avoid French ATC strikes ( as still happens ). But, I believe, one of the recent reasons for delays was due to French ATC introducing Electronic Flight Progress Strips.

[Hotel Tango]

In a nutshell, when delays due to flow management mount up, many operators will take a detour if it gives them significantly less delay.

[JT8D-17]

T9 is very congested some days with airlines avoiding France. We regularly get stuck down in the high 20's low 30's. How much do the airlines save by going oceanic?

[hapzim]

It moves the customers at airline expense and lots of juggling airframes and crew hours. Many airlines just cancel flights, others will do their best to get the customer to destination even with a delay.

[Una Due Tfc]

T9 is very congested some days with airlines avoiding France. We regularly get stuck down in the high 20's low 30's. How much do the airlines save by going oceanic?

About €50 per flightplan to go oceanic, flat rate, as opposed to a few hundred to over a grand per hour depending on aircraft size and airspace transitted

[Charlie Roy]

Is it not that large sections of French airspace are very regularly closed for military use?

[737aviator]

JT8D-17, does your airline have CPDLC and ADS-C as many days the levels are restricted by the oceanic track system traffic 'coasting in/out' in the vicinity of the Tango routes, therefore only levels below FL340 being available to aircraft without the above systems.

[Hotel Tango]

Is it not that large sections of French airspace are very regularly closed for military use?

Where did you get that idea from?

[JT8D-17]

JT8D-17, does your airline have CPDLC and ADS-C as many days the levels are restricted by the oceanic track system traffic 'coasting in/out' in the vicinity of the Tango routes, therefore only levels below FL340 being available to aircraft without the above systems.

That's interesting. No we don't have any fancy gadgets like that I'm afraid. Southbound seems to be the problem for us, however Northbound is fine, I normally call Shanwick abeam Lisbon and usually get the level requested.

[Una Due Tfc]

That's interesting. No we don't have any fancy gadgets like that I'm afraid. Southbound seems to be the problem for us, however Northbound is fine, I normally call Shanwick abeam Lisbon and usually get the level requested.

I'm not an oceanic (procedural) controller, but you can make the request up to 90 mins in advance of oceanic entry, earlier you get it in, more likely you are to get what you want.

[PAXboy]

Well, yesterday (17th) it was the Italians turn to strike. Makes a change ...