What is the ADS-B Australian Coverage at Lowest Safe Altitude?

[Dick Smith]

It is pretty obvious that Australia is going to lead the world in relation to mandatory ADS-B for IFR aircraft.

However, at no time has Airservices actually shown a chart which clearly depicts the ADS-B ground station coverage at the lowest safe altitude that IFR aircraft can fly at.

My guestimate would be less than 20% of Australia would be covered by ADS-B ground stations at lowest safe altitude.

Surely there must be a chart that depicts this, and before mandating ADS-B for all IFR aircraft, Airservices must have considered this particular issue.

Imagine if you were going to force the Australian GA industry to spend over $30 million, only to provide very limited services. This is because - in order to maximise profits, instead of installing 600 ground stations, the Airservices Board decide to put in only 60 or 70 ground stations.

The ADS-B will certainly work above FL290, but it’s not really viable for non-pressurised small aircraft, such as Piper Navajos.

Look forward to some advice on this from the people at Airservices – surely they must have a chart at their fingertips!

[fujii]

Dick,

Why ask for the map here? Why not approach Airservices directly?

[TBM-Legend]

fujii

Dick is trying to make a point....

[fujii]

I know but he has been trying to make the same point in a number of posts. Far better for his argument to get the information first then argue with facts rather than his usual style of accusing unions of complicity, Airservices ineptitude, CASA intransigence and unfounded statements about the 1930s.

[outnabout]

Dick:


This might not be definitive, but it gives you an idea regarding the coverage. This information is cunningly hidden on the Airservices Australia webpage, under a heading of ADS-B coverage. Do you think this might be a start?






ADS-B coverage | Airservices (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projects/ads-b/ads-b-coverage/)

[Dick Smith]

Yair. But that map goes no lower than 5000'. And that shows pathetic coverage.

What about the coverage at 1000' agl ?

[Dick Smith]

What does the red / blue / orange mean? I know it's not ADSB coverage at all - it's SSR coverage . So virtually no ADS-B coverage in the J curve at all.

Hold on. That's where most of the aircraft fly that are going to be subject to the $30 m Feb 2017 mandate

Can't be right. That would not be ethical.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Would not this ADS-B coverage be the same as for VHF range, and therefore, largely 'line of sight'..?

So if you are at 'low level'......

Or, do I not understand the issue?

Cheers...

[Old Akro]

Ex FSO

As I understand it, ADS-B requires line of sight VHF transmission, but to different towers than the Comm ones, therefore the coverage is different.

As far as I can see, ADS-B is only required for one of 3 reasons:

1. To transfer airservice infrastructure costs from AsA to aircraft owners.
2. To provide greater position accuracy which allows reduced aircraft separation which increases traffic throughput in terminal areas (ie airline flights)
3. To provide better SAR direction / emergency response in the event of an emergency.

Surely point #3 requires coverage at the LSALT?

AsA have basically only provided coverage maps for cruising altitudes. Surely a high proportion of emergencies occur on climb to cruising altitude or on the approach to land (especially gear issues)?

[le Pingouin]

Those coverage maps are well out of date (look at the date) and don't reflect the current coverage. For instance around Melbourne there are Mt William, Mt Tassie and Mt Macedon - there is ADS-B coverage on the ground at Melbourne, Ballarat, very low at Bendigo, Shepparton.

[CaptainMidnight]

Why the sudden panic about ADS-B coverage at LSALTs?

There isn't SSR coverage at LSALTs outside the J curve, unless in reasonable proximity to the few SSR sites.

In fact, given there are now some 75+ ADS-B sites around the country where there is no SSR coverage at all, the surveillance across the country has vastly improved.

and before mandating ADS-B for all IFR aircraft, Airservices must have considered this particular issue
Airservices didn't mandate anything. That authority rests with CASA, who mandated the fitment, timeline and who are the sole authority to grant exemptions.

If CASA wanted to grant an extension to the fitment date or grant exemptions they could, and Airservices would have to wear it. I suspect CASA don't want to grant exemptions for fear of opening the flood gates.

CASA staff from the top down have long seemed to have a habit of blaming Airservices & Defence when they can.

[Awol57]

Try coming west of the J curve. Plenty of ADS-B coverage where there is no SSR. I can see you on the ground at YPKA as opposed to the PBO SSR picking you up around FL150.

If you asked the controller I am sure they would have no problems how telling you how they are seeing you.

[Frank Arouet]

My concern is Oodnadatta. I'm still not convinced there is mobile phone coverage. Trust in the public phone and "airmove priority" I guess. But then again one of the selling points of ADSB was search and rescue. Could I be hung up on the boundary fence like an Eagle or tangled up with my HF antennae cup which I forgot to reel in?


Ah, the good old days...

[le Pingouin]

See those yellow "pins" on the maps - they indicate an ADS-B or SSR site. There's one at Oodnadatta.

[outnabout]

The map (though out of date) shows ADS-B coverage at 5000 feet.

Why would you be flying IFR below 5000 feet, when you could bump into a pesky VFR aircraft flying at a non-hemispherical level (perfectly legally, I will point out) just because they can?

Remember, IFR doesn't mean IMC.

[Capn Bloggs]

Good one, Frank. :rolleyes:

The ADS-B will certainly work above FL290, but it’s not really viable for non-pressurised small aircraft, such as Piper Navajos.
With the exception of the mines and YPKG ;)) there is ADS-B coverage to the ground everywhere I go, and not an SSR head in sight (wot's that thingee spinning aorund on Eastern Range?? ;)) . This has led to a massive improvement in service, and therefore safety, for RPT, which make a very loud noise whether they hit one of their own or a IFR Navajo...

ADS-B? Greatest thing since sliced-bread. :ok:

instead of installing 600 ground stations, the Airservices Board decide to put in only 60 or 70 ground stations.
Cut the nonsense Dick.

[Jabawocky]

Bloggs, while I can see your delight, and we are usually in agreement on things, there is currently nowhere near enough low level ADSB. From 5000' up I think we should be rewarded with ADSB coverage by 2020.

I am 100% in favour for it, but when us small guys invest, ASA (the government) should be also investing, and not just looking after heavies.

While I am at it, there is no excuse satisfactory that can be used to justify why there is no VHF comms below 7000' (I experienced over 8000) at places like YCMU or YBCK. The ground is flat as bro' so despite there being no VOR at CMU any more and the NDB….well who cares, why are we reliant on HF which for GA is a PITA.

The service we get is not great at say YHBA either. Unless you are in a Q400 ATC comms on the ground is nil and SSR/ADSB is roughly 5000'. What a joke!

ASA should have been spending on VHF and ADSB not SSR's that …….ohh yeah, we know why that was don't we. :*

[Vref+5]

Bloggs,

what serrvice are you getting? You're not getting a separation service because you're in Class G. It's the only airspace in the developed world where IFR aircraft are observed by ATC but are not provided any ATC separation standards.

If it's determined that the risk is so low in that airspace that it's only required to be rated as G, what is the point of mandating equipment that is used to provide a separation standard? It makes no sense.

Once again, if I'm wrong then so is the rest of the world, because that's how they have done it!!

[Lead Balloon]

Ahh, but you see it's not G. Don't believe what all those charts and other AIP documents say.

It's actually ForG.

[Dick Smith]

Many pilots are not going to fit ADSB. They are going to downgrade safety and only operate VFR in future as they can't justify the extra cost.

Airservices, how about updating the charts on your web.?

Commonsense alone would push for a delay in the mandate until 2021. Let's see what happens.

[Capn Bloggs]

what serrvice are you getting?
I'm getting a FIS (enhanced by DTI) which includes traffic alerts; if I was VFR it'd be called a SIS. I don't want a separation service and at most places don't I need a separation service.

[Car RAMROD]

They are going to downgrade safety and only operate VFR in future


How, exactly are they going to "downgrade" safety by going VFR in the future?
Why is a non-ADSB VFR aircraft considered/inferred by you as safe now, but not in the future?
Please, explain. You haven't yet.

It seems to me that those who bag ADSB have never really used it, most likely because they haven't gotten out from under the J Curve!

And there's probably more ADSB coverage closer to the LSALT than there is radar around Australia. So what's the real point of this thread- just another soapbox moment?
By the way, go have a read if the currently-running 121.5 whinge thread in another section. That'll be Aus if Dick gets his way and tries to make all of Aus in 121.5!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re ' I can see you on the ground at YPKA as opposed to the PBO SSR picking you up around FL150.'

SSR at PBO these days? That's an improvement.

Cheers

[Old Akro]

It seems to me that those who bag ADSB have never really used it, most likely because they haven't gotten out from under the J Curve!

It seems to me that those who support ADS-B have never paid for it!

Outside the J-curve below 10,000ft the coverage can only be described as patchy. How does it improve my safety here?

I have had 3 near miss scares. Each one was with a VFR aircraft flying a non ICAO altitude. How will ADS-B help this?

One of these 3 scares was a traffic alert for opposing direction VFR aircraft at the same altitude while I was in real IMC. I am concerned the cost of ADS-B will encourage more pilots to "unofficially" fly IFR like this.

The ADS-B upgrade to our twin cost over $30,000. There was about $2,500 of engineering orders alone. This is a cost mandated by CASA that does not exist in the US. The guys who say its cheap because the transponder only costs $3k are just not living in the real world.

[Jabawocky]

Akro, unless you are still driving your 1977 kingswood, I would bet that you have updated your car at a typical hit of $30K each time. Even on a Corolla it will be $15 each time.

If you said in that time frame you have done 10-11 upgrades of your car/cars, then that would be $200-300K in reinvestment.

You can't include engine and prop on this or other routine maintenance like tyres, undercarriage etc, so how much have you reinvested on your Seneca (or whatever) since 1977?

It seems to me that those who support ADS-B have never paid for it!
Not true :ok:

The ADS-B upgrade to our twin cost over $30,000. We did a bit more than just ADSB and it was around this, but hey, I updated a car in that time frame too.

There was about $2,500 of engineering orders alone. This is a cost mandated by CASA that does not exist in the US.
That is a separate but real issue and you should not have needed to pay that.

[Frank Arouet]

Most of the enthusiastic, highly emotional believers of free installation, (of the day), supporters of ADSB didn't own an aircraft. Therefor it seems to me that those who support ADS-B have never paid for it!

[Hempy]

"Therefore". Fixed that for you :ok:

Which LSALT are we actually talking about Dick?

[Jabawocky]

Frank, are you running for the GREENS by any chance. You speak their language.

Most of the enthusiastic, highly emotional believers of free installation, (of the day), supporters of ADSB didn't own an aircraft. Therefor it seems to me that those who support ADS-B have never paid for it!

Now where is the data to support that claim.

I can think of PLENTY if not most of my flying friends, and just about every IFR friend had done so long ago.

As it is how many ADSB equipped planes have you fitted out? Statistics from naval gazing do not count for much.

The fact is we have it….what we need is all the money wasted on SSR needs to be spent on VHF, both ADSB and Coms. The bill for the double dip in the coffers could go to those who screwed it up…..people like you perhaps?

[fujii]

"Naval gazing," what does staring at sailors have to do with ADS-B?

[Jabawocky]

Good old MAC correcting again :}

CTRE, you might be right at there being plenty who have done nothing. But this is hardly a new concept. The Bundy trials were when???

But if you moved the date to 2020…..you would have exactly the same problem and the same whiners…..just a different day.

[CaptainMidnight]

Do we know how many currently IFR light singles and Twins have become ADS-B capable so far? Not that many I suspect. On the contrary, quite a few.

Window on right hand side.

Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast | Airservices (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projects/ads-b/)

[Old Akro]

On the contrary, quite a few.

Window on right hand side.

Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast | Airservices (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projects/ads-b/)

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Airservices are being intentionally misleading by quoting the number of FLIGHTS that are ADS-B compliant NOT the number of AIRCRAFT. CASA has the numbers of aircraft registered in the IFR category, why do we not see this number???

When all the GA fleet has left IFR, the ratios will be a perfect 100% because it will only be the airlines left flying IFR.

Anecdotally, I would say that maybe 1 in 2 aircraft owners are decided to give up on IFR capability. Australia already has a small percentage of pilots who are IFR rated compared with the US. ADS-B will further reduce this. I would contend that this will have the effect of reducing safety.

It's a small step to then assume that more aircraft will be flying IFR illegally or scud running.

[Old Akro]

Good old MAC correcting again :}

CTRE, you might be right at there being plenty who have done nothing. But this is hardly a new concept. The Bundy trials were when???

But if you moved the date to 2020…..you would have exactly the same problem and the same whiners…..just a different day.

Jabba

Firstly, we've voted with our feet and done the ADS-B upgrade. The Avioincs work associated with ADS-B was about $30k.

But, the thing that delaying until 2020 would give us is that it brings us into line with the US. This will mean more readily available, cheaper equipment.

If CASA was genuine in its intent to improve safety through the introduction of ADS-B it would do 3 things:
1. Bring us into line with the timing of the country that makes the equipment
2. Follow the lead of the US and mandate it for VFR & IFR aircraft alike WHERE MODE C TRANSPONDERS ARE CURRENTLY REQUIRED. There is no safety case that reguires ADS-B to ground level in class G airspace.
3. Make some regulatory concessions to make installation cheaper / easier. The US has done this too. But just waiving the nearly unique Australian requirement for engineering orders would help.

Australia is the only country in the world that is mandating ADS-B for ALL IFR aircraft in ALL airspace at ALL levels. Why??

[CaptainMidnight]

Lies, damned lies and statistics.
The percentage IFR figure is close to the percentage of IFR airframes equipped.

Airservices only receives flight plans, and so for the website data they retrieve the % IFR flights equipped with ADS-B figure from those.

Perhaps if you joined an industry association represented at RAPAC you'd be more aware of these facts.

[Frank Arouet]

Jabawocky;


You are fully aware of my objection to mandating ADSB for VFR aircraft and the fraud of announcing it would be fully funded by AsA at no cost to the owner/operator. The cost benefits should be shared and used by the IFR fraternity and the idea of an Auster, a paraglider or parachute for that matter being forced into buying something on some airy fairy ideal of ADSB IN/OUT doing away with TCAS and revolutionizing the SAR industry is simply wrong.


I think you know me well enough to recognize the idiocy of your reference to the Greens. A bit like me accusing you of supporting the anti gun lobby.


As for statistics, most have been massaged into "lies" by the various vested interests and should be treated with the contempt they deserve. But hey! say the same thing long enough and it becomes fact. My stance was vindicated when the free installations were shown to be a cruel hoax.


Have a nice day.

[underfire]

ADSB by 2020, that will be interesting, as we are aware that the FAA has mandated ADSB by 2020. Unfortunately, currently they are mandating ADSB 2, which is not compatible.

The way the FAA keeps moving the deadline, by 2020, it may be 2025, but by then, ADSB will be obsolete anyways, and all will be thru the Ku band IFE system.

[Square Bear]

But if you moved the date to 2020…..you would have exactly the same problem and the same whiners…..just a different day.

I remember when the Aussie DME was decommissioned in the 90's. The operators and owners that put off installing the DME(I) were rewarded by shifting to the "new" technology of GPS and not having to spend money upgrading to something that was unnecessary.

They certainly were not whining.

[Old Akro]

The way the FAA keeps moving the deadline, by 2020, it may be 2025,

The FAA has made recent statements saying that it will not slip later than 2020. And I think they are probably starting to be bound by ICAO undertakings.

But there are some very, very big differences with the FAA implementation:
1. They are implementing ADSB - in so that you can get traffic information. Their system also allows weather information and some other data to be received. The US flavour of FAA adds real value to the pilot.
2. The FAA is not mandating ADS-B for all airspace types and all levels. You will still be able to fly non ADSB VFR and even IFR
3. The FAA has granted some installation concessions to help make the conversion cheaper.

[Old Akro]

The percentage IFR figure is close to the percentage of IFR airframes equipped.

Airservices only receives flight plans, and so for the website data they retrieve the % IFR flights equipped with ADS-B figure from those.

Perhaps if you joined an industry association represented at RAPAC you'd be more aware of these facts.

Captain Midnight

1. I'm just going to call Bulls$#t on the assertion that 77% of IFR registered aircraft are now have ADS-B fitted. CASA will know. Since ADS-B units have aircraft details registered with them, the precise number of installed ADS-B units is known. And CASA knows what aircraft are in the IFR category.

PLUS, you will notice that the same panel that you reference says " VFR aircraft fitted voluntarily = 350" If AsA knows how many VFR aircraft have ADS-B fitted, why don't they know how many IFR aircraft are fitted? And , BTW, what is 350 as a % of the VFR fleet??

2. I know a fair bit about RAPAC. Please point me to the meetings where ABS-B has been on the agenda? It must be the one set of minutes I've missed.

I'm sure you are aware that RAPAC is regarded as a regional organ and is currently having its terms of reference reviewed to narrow its focus further. I don't believe CASA wants broad / national issues like ADS-B discussed in these fora.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Would a better question be, Mr Smith....how many NPAs have ADS-B coverage down to the FAF?...this is what you are truely getting at, isn't it?

[CaptainMidnight]

1. I'm just going to call Bulls$#t on the assertion that 77% of IFR registered aircraft are now have ADS-B fitted.No, they no doubt aren't, and I didn't say they were. I said I believed the figures were "close to".

FWIW late last year I recall it was said to be 50-something percent of airframes when the table was 60-something percent "All IFR", so I assume 6 months later both numbers have moved on.

Ask CASA - they should know :)

[underfire]

The FAA has made recent statements saying that it will not slip later than 2020. And I think they are probably starting to be bound by ICAO undertakings.

But there are some very, very big differences with the FAA implementation:
1. They are implementing ADSB - in so that you can get traffic information. Their system also allows weather information and some other data to be received. The US flavour of FAA adds real value to the pilot.
2. The FAA is not mandating ADS-B for all airspace types and all levels. You will still be able to fly non ADSB VFR and even IFR
3. The FAA has granted some installation concessions to help make the conversion cheaper

Yes, that is the concept, but not the reality. Currently, the ADSB is so jammed up at most airports due to the capacity of 1090 MHz system. Those inherent limitations cannot go away by throwing more money at it. The 890 ADSB below a certain altitude and/or for ground ops, doesn't work any better with capacity issues.
The string length of the broadcast cant really get any longer, as this will bunch it up even more, and create more compatibility issues.
I have been in on the weather part of it for years, and unfortunately, there is just not enough length in the string to have a broadcast of any value.

It doesnt help the matter that anyone can send and receive the ADSB signal, which is why there will be little reliance on it. The FAA has gone to ADSB 2, which does include encryption, and that is what is being mandated for 2020. Back to my post, that is why the systems will not be compatible, and why the jump at this point, with systems and equipage, appears fraught with disaster.

As noted on the Boeing and Airbus details, the aircraft will begin being shipped with ADSB 2 beginning 2018...what will happen then in Oz? Aircraft and a whole system that cannot see an encrypted aircraft?

I feel that the systems that Boeing and Airbus are using now with some of their aircraft, that monitor the vital signs of the aircraft thruogh the Ku band uplink, are where it will all go in the very near future. There are already fleets of aircraft, equipped with certain IFE systems, that already do provide all of this data, and both in/out configurations. It works very, very well. If there are any SW, or Air Berlin drivers here (to name a few) , they can attest to the benefits, especially the uplink descent profiles.
Try any of that with ADSB...