Wick

[Heathrow Harry]

Flying nuclear material from Scotland to US 'an option' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-36072023)

The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA) has said radioactive material could potentially be flown to and from Scotland and the US.
Last month, the UK and US governments agreed that material could be exchanged.

The NDA is funding improvement work to enhance the runway at Wick John O'Groats Airport.

The airport is about 30 miles (48km) from the Dounreay nuclear site.
Under the UK-US deal, it has been proposed that highly enriched uranium (HEU) stored at Dounreay be sent to the US.

The NDA said flying the material was among options being considered, but also said no decisions have been taken.

A spokeswoman for the NDA said: "The protection of the public and personnel is of paramount importance at all times. For those reason we are unable to disclose information about the transport arrangement that's could jeopardise the security of this material. It has been proposed that a quantity of HEU may be exchanged with the US in return for material to be used in the production of medical isotopes for Europe. The upgrades to the airport in Wick will be done to ensure that this is one possible option to allow the transport to take place."

A spokesman for Wick John O'Groats Airport, which is operated by Highlands and Islands Airport Limited, said: "Work will get under way later this month on a project to refurbish the runway at Wick John O'Groats Airport in order to enhance its operational capability and, in particular, its ability to accommodate larger aircraft. "This work will be carried out on behalf of the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority. The majority of work will be carried out overnight and the project is expected to be completed in August."

Radioactive material from the civil nuclear industry has been transported by plane in the past, the NDA said.

A spokesman for the authority added that funding improvements to the airport near Wick secured "the option of moving material by air on a range of aircraft".

The Dounreay nuclear power complex is being decommissioned and the site cleaned up. Most of the radioactive materials, such as fuel, held there is being moved to other locations, including Sellafield in Cumbria where it will be reprocessed or stored.

[ETOPS]

Hope they don't straighten 26 - I used to love landing on a "banana" shaped runway :ok:

[Richard Taylor]

If these flights take place at least you'll be able to see Wick in the dark in the years ahead... :p

[LTNman]

Dounreay had its own 6,000ft runway that still looks intact despite being abandoned for years.

[horatio_b]

According to this interesting article, the Dounreay runway is now used as a car park

Dounreay (http://www.forgottenairfields.com/united-kingdom/scotland/highlands-and-western-isles/dounreay-s888.html)

[ATIS31]

Dounreays runway is now a carpark complete with lampposts I think surface is now pretty broken up. Don't expect HIAL to make full use of Runway upgrade all they are interested in is INVERNESS

[Heathrow Harry]

Maybe a candidate for some subsidised air service?

Request stop on the way to Orkney or Shetland???

[NorthSouth]

Wick has been used for spent nuclear fuel flights for years. BAe146s to Carlisle, C-130s to Switzerland and elsewhere. Before that it was DanAir HS748s into half of the old WW2 runway (3000ft-ish) at Dounreay, using nothing more than an NDB approach with no DME. I think they also used Bandeirantes.

Seems to me the biggest concern about more nuclear flights at Wick ought to be the complete absence of controlled airspace and low level ATC radar cover there.

[SealinkBF]

First shipment has left... it was odd being in Wick last week and seeing the lights of the runway in the evening - made the airport look huge!

Dounreay cargo leaves Wick for USA | John O'Groat Journal | News (http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/News/Dounreay-cargo-leaves-Wick-for-USA-18092016.htm)

[LTNman]

So what did the £8 million upgrade actually pay for?

[fairflyer]

With a 1400m landing distance available at Wick, intrigued to know what transatlantic-capable aircraft they intend to use to fly waste to the US?

£8m would pay for some useful extension of the runway......

[Wycombe]

The link above shows it was a C17!

[ZOOKER]

They used to fly nuclear material from EGCC to Dounrey and vice-versa in the 1980s, I believe? Air Kilroe, in a King Air, to EGPY.

[NorthSouth]

So what did the £8 million upgrade actually pay for?
Good question. There's been no change in runway length, declared distances, quoted bearing strengths of runway, apron or taxiways for some years, and the PCNs are all well below the ACN of a C-17.

RFF Category also unchanged at 4 with 5 or 6 available by arrangement. But I understand a C17 is Cat 8. :uhoh:

[El Bunto]

The C-17 didn't depart directly for its destination, it transited to another secure local airfield with a runway of about 2,700 metres to take-on fuel for the journey...

[DaveReidUK]

Routed via Lossiemouth on both inbound and outbound legs.

But don't tell anyone. :=

[racedo]

If these flights take place at least you'll be able to see Wick in the dark in the years ahead... http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif

You mean it would light The Wick............

[scr1]

So what did the £8 million upgrade actually pay for

If HIAL were involved a new coffee machine for the manager would be about it

[ATIS31]

Displaced Threshold at each end was completely dug out new concrete base poured and the whole length was resurfaced. Think there is still some displacement at each end but its not as large a displacement as it was ! If only they could make use of the upgrade and generate some new business now but knowing HIAL all they are interested in is INVERNESS:{

[NorthSouth]

Runway declared lengths, thresholds and bearing strengths are still exactly the same as they have been for years. Maybe HIAL hasn't got round to telling the AIP yet?

[Heathrow Harry]

Look - someone needs £ 8 mm quid OK? Goes a long way in Thurso.............

[NorthSouth]

Yes, usually a long way down a hole.......:uhoh:

[SealinkBF]

The lights are definitely new. Was lit up like a, er, runway earlier. I amuse myself.

[Heathrow Harry]

Must be one of those new pay-as -use elctricity meters they've installed - insert £ 100 k here......................

[SealinkBF]

HIAL has a crystal ball!

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4444/37101921593_3b8bf299c9_b.jpg

[davidjohnson6]

Eastern have now pulled out of Wick. Loganair left a few months ago
Anyone have thoughts on the future of Wick airport ? Will there be a PSO to keep a passenger service ?

[LTNman]

I visited Wick last year and thought it was a great little airport with a modern terminal. Next to no one lives in the catchment area though so even in the good times the passenger traffic was only ever light.

[inOban]

Very first time I flew. Wick to Kirkwall in a DC3, 1952 or 3, so I was 7/8. Part of a journey from Inverness to Whalsay in Shetland by car, plane and boats. Since it was midsummer, daylight the whole way from 4am to after 11.
The population of Caithness is still about 40k, but of course its heyday was when Dounreay was active.

[Link Kilo]

davidjohnson6

Local politicians and business groups have been calling for routes to Aberdeen and Edinburgh to be covered by PSOs by the Scottish Government, but I've not seen anything to indicate the SG's view on these requests.

The FBO, Far North Aviation, has a steady stream of ferry flights stopping for fuel, though I don't know if that traffic alone would be sufficient to maintain a slimmed-down operation.

As mentioned above, the airport has also, as recently as 2018, been visited by USAF C17s removing nuclear waste from Dounreay. Whether there are to be any more of those flights I don't know, but if there are then that might be a reason for at least keeping the airfield in a state that could see it be made available for such flights.

(As an aside, HIAL commissioned AECOM to assess the runways for C17 use. However, anything appearing to relate to details of the C17 operations has been redacted. I've too few posts to allow me to post a link, but Googling 'wick, C17, theferret.scot' should find it.)

[ATIS31]

I think these C17 flights are now finished. Regarding the PSO appeal to scottish government. I would say given the rural area and poor road and rail network it should be in with a good chance. As I've said on here before if Dundee can get it, a city with good road and rail links to aberdeen, edinburgh and glasgow then I can't see how Wick can't. I think a case was put forward to the Government this week so time will tell.Also the loss of many jobs in the area if the airport was to close would be devistaing. Only a helicopter based at the airport now which serves the Beatrice off shore wind farm.

[virginblue]

Isn't the whole point of PSOs offering better access for travel related to either business or public services? While Dundee has better access to EDI, it also has much more to offer in that regard. I don't really see why WIC would justify that, but maybe some local folks here have better insight. What was the typical clientele using the WIC flights more recently (which had seen passenger numbers drop by third over just 3 or 4 years)? I used (rather: tried to use) it once but it was leisure travel obviously not justifying taxpayer money spent on it. I took the train from Inverness and planned to return to EDI by plane, connecting to LON from there. Alas, fog and I ended on a coach that drove me to INV from where I got on a plane. Not terribly convenient, but certainly the alternative the taxman has in mind when consinderig spending money on a PSO, given the expansion of services from INV over the past few years (that was - before BE's collapse).

[SealinkBF]

Eastern have now pulled out of Wick. Loganair left a few months ago
Anyone have thoughts on the future of Wick airport ? Will there be a PSO to keep a passenger service ?

Just went on to their website to see that Wick has been removed from the drop down menu. Was hoping it was temporary.

[inOban]

Some PSO routes are necessary for NHS patients, but the NHS serves Wick from Inverness.

[ATIS31]

SealinkBF

I'm afraid not Sealink Check in staff paid off last friday. I think the future looks pretty bleak for the airport and the county not to mention all the staff that work there Fire Brigade, Security Staff, ATC etc.
Changed days from 2 years ago when eastern had a early morning and late evening return flights

[fjencl]

Multi-million-pound plan to bring new routes to Wick Airport | Press and Journal Wick Airport (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/2873725/wick-airport/)

[davidjohnson6]

Is that enough cash to open a PSO to either EDI and/or GLA with a bit spare for contingencies ?

[nighthawk117]

It should be.. its in line with other PSO funded routes. There's a handy table available here that shows them all: https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/pso_inventory_table.pdf

But to summarise:
Kirkwall - Westray/Papa Westray/Sanday etc - £178,000-£195,000
Newquay - Heathrow = £700,000
Glagow - Barra/Campbeltown/Tiree - £1,300,000 - £1,800,000
Cardiff - RAF Valley - £2,000,000

[inOban]

It would be important to discover where people need to fly to, which may not be where they used to in the past. After all my very first flight was in 1951 from Wick to Kirkwall in a DC3!

[LTNman]

Still can’t ignore the fact that there is almost no demand for air travel from Wick so I wonder what the subsidies will be per passenger? Great little airport with an almost empty terminal when I watched an arrival and departure 3 years ago.

[ETOPS]

I think the demand is travel to Wick - off shore workers positioning in for transfer to sites in the North Sea.

[CabinCrewe]

Well they can go to Inverness or Aberdeen and transfer. Subsidies are not required to help big business!

[Fletch]

Happy to be proved wrong, but I don't think this was the case. Many of the passengers were heading offshore but were heading Wick to Aberdeen to start their rotation.

Personally I have no issues with subsidies being used on this route as I doubt much will go to line the pockets of big business, but rather help sustain one of the more remote parts of GB.

[Saabdriver1]

That sounds like you’ve never done the long drive north ! Aberdeen is probably a five to six hour drive at best along a succession of some of the worst A roads in the country. Inverness is a near three hour drive along half of those roads. Give it a try when lockdown rules allow and see if you feel the same way.

[ATIS31]

Well said Saabdriver1 ! Will be interesting to see who they can get to run these flights and interesting to see if the timings are more suitable for day return business work

[davidjohnson6]

Presumably AirTask, Eastern and Loganair are the likely PSO bidders...
Any other possible (non-random) candidates ?

[fjencl]

Is this the first time that Wick airport will have used PSO to secure flights. Or has PSO been used before at this airport.

[SealinkBF]

Don’t forget the alternatives: a four hour 20/20 minute train journey or an expensive Stagecoach service!

[SealinkBF]

fjencl

I think so. It has always been disadvantaged due to it being on the “mainland” so not seen as being as worthy of a subsidy like the islands (or Campbeltown).

A local joke was “How do you increase tourism to Caithness? Sink the Ola”. (that was St. Ola, the ferry to Orkney!).

When I lived there Gill Air operated three times a day to Aberdeen, Mondays to Fridays.
Loganair flew to Lerwick, Kirkwall, Inverness, Glasgow and Edinburgh. None of it was subsidised.

[nighthawk117]

LTNman

Correct me if i'm wrong, but weren't there flights in the past? Presumably these carried passengers, and so there was some demand. Perhaps not enough to make it profitable, but that's where the subsidies come in - making routes that were marginal before feasible.

The quoted PSO is £1m per year, or £2,700 per day. Assuming twice daily to EDI and GLA, then that works out at £342 per flight. That's not an insignificant sum, and will go a long way towards paying the operating costs of the flight. Another way of looking at it - at an average ticket price of £40 each way, then it's the equivalent of 8 extra passengers - more if you run a reduced service at weekends.

[LTNman]

The truth is next to no one lives up there with a tiny population and an ever smaller one that would be prepared to fly. There gets to a point that the further south people live from Wick the more appealing Inverness becomes.

[SealinkBF]

The population is around 24,000. Dounreay and Rolls Royce employ around 1300 people and used the flights heavily.
The journey to Inverness is over four hours by train and three by coach.
The population of Mull of Kintyre is less than 10,000 yet Campbeltown gets a PSO flight, when it is just over 3 hours by road to Scotland's largest city.

[davidjohnson6]

Is there a planned date for publishing some sort of RFP around the proposed PSO or (even better) a date when flights are expected to start ?
Looking at the recent press, it seems like there's a lot of grandstanding by politicians.... but very little in the way of publicly visible action

[SealinkBF]

The pace is glacial.

From the John O' Groat JournalHighland Council has agreed to help fund the creation of a public service obligation for Wick John O'Groats Airport.

Councillor Nicola Sinclair, chair of the Caithness committee, welcomed the decision to earmark £300,000 towards the creation of the PSO.

It came as the local authority agreed its budget for the next financial year.

The money will add to the funding already secured from the Scottish and UK governments.

Councillor Nicola Sinclair said: “I am delighted to see Highland Council agree to fund the public service obligation for Wick John O’Groats Airport.

"We now have multiple funding partners in the form of the Highland Council, Scottish Government and UK government, and work continues in earnest to reinstate services from our airport and mitigate the economic damage caused by the grounding of flights.

[davidjohnson6]

Another month has passed with little in the way of observable outcome
Allowing for a minimum of 2 months from formally advertising an RFP to a bid submission deadline, plus maybe another month from bidding closing to allow for appraising bids, notifying a winner and allowing the winner to sign contracts and put aircraft and crew in place means we are talking mid July as the earliest possible flight start date

With summer 2021 likely to see a domestic tourism boom, there is a great opportunity to get the route off to a strong start with plenty of pax and support the economy of a rather remote region that could do with a bit of a boost. So why the PSO delay ? Is there a need for more cash somewhere ?

[Link Kilo]

So why the PSO delay ? Is there a need for more cash somewhere ?
There may well be Scottish Government funding required. Since we're in the Scottish Parliament election campaign it's possible that there's some kind of purdah preventing things like this being announced during the campaign.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-parliament-election-6-2021-guidance-scottish-government-agencies-national-devolved-public-bodies/pages/2/

"Decisions on matters of policy on which the next administration might wish to take a different view from the current administration are expected to be postponed until after the election, provided that such postponement would not be detrimental to Scotland's interest or wasteful of public resources."

[Asturias56]

" (even better) a date when flights are expected to start ?"

I really think there are a hundred more pressing issues right now than deciding on providing a service at public cost that will benefit remarkably few people.

[ATIS31]

I don't think they have all the funding in place yet. I think they hope to have the final amount of funding in place soon, however long that will be !

[Asturias56]

Does anyone have any stats on previous passenger movements from Wick?

[SWBKCB]

From CAA staTs

2018 - ABZ 7,775, EDI 9,341
2019 - ABZ 5,317, EDI 7,395

[Asturias56]

thanks - a hundred or so people a week to and from both - seems a pretty small number to me

[fjencl]

Airlines asked to tender for lifeline Wick flights - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-58828715)

[davidjohnson6]

What airlines are credible for this ? Just AirTask, Eastern and Loganair ? Anybody else ?

[davidjohnson6]

The tender period for bids to fly at Wick closed last week on Thurs 02 Dec. Anyone know if there was at least 1 suitable bid, and when an announcement of the winner is likely to be ?

https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=OCT429822

[virginblue]

Well, the deadline for the submission of tenders was extended twice with somewhat strange explanations, if that is an indication...

Due to disruption caused by Storm Arwen, The Council have decided to extend the deadline by a further 2 days. It is recognised that tenderers may have had to direct their resources to operational areas rather than producing a tender on the lead up to the deadline. By extending further, it is hoped that tenderers will have more time to produce a suitable tender.

[VickersVicount]

…would suggest noone is interested.
Perhaps seasonal only would work when tourists can boost the otherwise low business/local numbers, which were in decline. Was a dire grim place last time I was there. Even the JOG tourist landmark area was run down and areas boarded up and closed. That was way before covid. Can’t see much investment going there.

[Richard Taylor]

Suggest VV is right when I saw the previous post referencing Storm Arwen. Looks like Wick's future is as a fuel stop for light aircraft en route to & from the N. Atlantic. If only someone could have incorporated WIC into the NC500 circuit & yes - developed JoG!

[jmdavies86]

Does anyone know what the aircraft and frequency requirement(s) are for the contract as it doesn't state these even on the Full Notice Text?

Is this information confidential and only accessible to potential bidders?

[Dalcrossflyer]

Highly unlikely Wick will be left as just a fuel stop, albeit the main reason will be political. However there is a market with the general public if the times and prices are right. A daily service to both Edinburgh and Aberdeen hopefully will transpire, perhaps twice a day. Loganair, Eastern, Flybe, Emerald Airlines and Wideroe possible candidates I’d think. Best of luck to them.

[VickersVicount]

cant see Wideroe, FlyBe2 or Emerald going anywhere near it

[BA318]

Highly unlikely Wick will be left as just a fuel stop, albeit the main reason will be political. However there is a market with the general public if the times and prices are right. A daily service to both Edinburgh and Aberdeen hopefully will transpire, perhaps twice a day. Loganair, Eastern, Flybe, Emerald Airlines and Wideroe possible candidates I’d think. Best of luck to them.

If they can’t get tenders for a PSO route then they have no chance. Wideroe and Emerald are very wishful thinking. Out of those maybe you’d get Loganair with a twin otter or Eastern with a J41. I can’t see anything else realistically.

[Richard Taylor]

I'm old enough to remember the days of BA on a leased Gulfstream 1 or a Gill SD330 on ABZ/WIC/ABZ... changed days indeed. Can't recall if Air Ecosse ever flew it. Struggle to get a C152 now on it!!

[Albert Hall]

Neither Wideroe nor Emerald (at this stage) have a UK Operating Licence and AOC, so neither has the traffic rights to fly domestically within the UK. They'd be ruled out of bidding for the PSO on that basis alone.

Flybe with a Q400 has to be fanciful at best.

Unless Airtask have come up with something - and it's difficult to see what - then it looks like a straight Eastern J41 v Loganair 340 contest is the most likely.

[inOban]

I'm old enough to remember the days of BA on a leased Gulfstream 1 or a Gill SD330 on ABZ/WIC/ABZ... changed days indeed. Can't recall if Air Ecosse ever flew it. Struggle to get a C152 now on it!!
I'm old enough to remember flying from Wick to Kirkwall on a DC3!

Seriously though any essential users are going to want a early flight to either Aberdeen or Edinburgh and a late flight back. That means either a based aircraft (no chance,) or putting a Wick call into a flight from/to Kirkwall.

[davidjohnson6]

AirTask have an aircraft (admittedly rather small) based in Oban, which is hardly a great metropolis.
What would be needed to make Wick a single aircraft base for these routes ?
Significantly more PSO cash ? Stronger engineering support ? Better navaids ? Anything else ?

I realise Wick is not exactly EDI... but my question is asked in genuine curiosity

[inOban]

The Airtask plane is, I believe, based at Cumbernauld and flies up and back every day. The Council (not government ) subsidy is huge - £220 per ticket.

[NickBarnes]

Having worked for Loganair when they ran this route from Edinburgh, the loads were very woeful then at times hence why it went, I'd have a feeling not even with the funding they would be that interested.

[virginblue]

That kind of PSO would be best suited to an outfit like AIS Airlines that has operated various PSOs across Europe with Jetstream 31s. They are pretty much a flight school with an attached airline that serves as a launching pad for their students. i(I guess should it ever come to crewing a Wick base, they would need to resort to drawing straws)..

PS I might be a little biased as far as WIC is concerned. My elaborated plan to log WIC as one of the few remaining UK airports I have not travelled from ended up in a Loganair minivan driving me down to INV at breakneck speed (and that was the day after Loganair had to cancel various intra-Orkney flights I was booked on). 'Nuff said...

[jmdavies86]

AIS Airlines would also not be permitted to bid for it because it's a UK route and EU-based airlines are no longer allowed to operate domestically within the UK due to Brexit; I do agree though that a Dornier Do-228, BAe Jetstream 31 or DHC-6 Twin Otter would likely be the most suitable aircraft.

[VickersVicount]

Dornier Do-228, BAe Jetstream 31 or DHC-6 Twin Otter would likely be the most suitable aircraft.
None of which are particularly efficient and how old are the newest J31s?
Double drops might be feasible or triangle routes. Something might be better than nothing, but don’t see this coming to much or with any longevity

[Saabdriver1]

Not altogether obvious why Kirkwall passengers would want a stop at Wick on the way to Aberdeen when there are already enough of them to keep the flight busy.

[davidjohnson6]

Maybe a W route, EDI/ABZ-KOI-WIC-KOI-EDI/ABZ ? :)
Flying time from WIC to KOI is not exactly long...

Keeps the Orkney folk happy, and lets the Wickers know how valued they are... :oh:

[Dalcrossflyer]

Maybe a W route, EDI/ABZ-KOI-WIC-KOI-EDI/ABZ ? :)
Flying time from WIC to KOI is not exactly long...

Keeps the Orkney folk happy, and lets the Wickers know how valued they are... :oh:

Pretty sure this wouldn’t be allowed on an PSO route, but never say never :-)

[ATIS31]

Given the passenger numbers further back I would of thought an average of 23 passengers on a 30 seat Saab to Edinburgh would be not too bad a load. 10 or so passengers on the Eastern flights to Aberdeen which is about right given the prices they used to charge !

[virginblue]

AIS Airlines would also not be permitted to bid for it because it's a UK route and EU-based airlines are no longer allowed to operate domestically within the UK due to Brexit; I do agree though that a Dornier Do-228, BAe Jetstream 31 or DHC-6 Twin Otter would likely be the most suitable aircraft.

Sure, that's why I said "like AIS Airlines". Realistically, if the UK keeps its PSO rules as they are, they will struggle to find anybody. The route obviously is only suited for a 20 seater operation - maybe a larger aircraft would work, but probably not for an airline operating at UK cost levels. It would require a cheaper Eastern European outfit like RAF Avia, Budapest Air Services, NyxAir or Transaviabaltika etc. They do quite a few PSOs in Sweden and Finland where there are no longer suitable local carriers.

[Dalcrossflyer]

Having worked for Loganair when they ran this route from Edinburgh, the loads were very woeful then at times hence why it went, I'd have a feeling not even with the funding they would be that interested.
Over recent times Loganair start and stop routes willy nilly. With Wick having been a solid base for decades I'm sure they can swallow their pride, carry out a PSO contract and serve the people of The North. (Even loganair aren't that daft and surely will be tempted with the dangling cash carrot)

[bad bear]

I guess if anyone expressed interest in running flights from Wick there would be a press release of some sort. Given the closing date was 8 weeks ago it can't be looking good ? in fairness even Inverness is desperately quiet. how long does an airport continue without passengers ?

[davidjohnson6]

I have sent an email as per the details on the Public Contracts Scotland website asking for details of whether there were any suitable bids and the intended contract awarding under Freedom of Information law. I would encourage others to do the same to put a bit of pressure for transparency on Aberdeen City Council or Highland Council
As an aide-memoire, the public request for bids is at
https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=OCT429822

Freedom of Information law in Scotland is discussed at
https://www.itspublicknowledge.info/Law/Legislation.aspx
https://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/media/11751/tips_for_requesters.pdf

[davidjohnson6]

Done a bit of digging - been told there was at least one bid, and an announcement will be made next week, probably Tuesday
I hope HIAL have booked a big enough conference room for all the journalists who will want to attend

[Richard Taylor]

Done a bit of digging - been told there was at least one bid, and an announcement will be made next week, probably Tuesday
I hope HIAL have booked a big enough conference room for all the journalists who will want to attend
It'll be live from outside the John O'Groats sign! :}

[davidjohnson6]

Contract evaluation to continue until second half of February. Public announcement might be made in February... or might be delayed further

[davidjohnson6]

Announcement now due on Monday 28 February, with first flight on Monday 04 April

[ATIS31]

Any Idea who has taken it on ?

[fjencl]

Scheduled flights restart from Wick John O’ Groats Airport with year-round air link between Caithness and Aberdeen secured in new deal | The Highland Council (https://www.highland.gov.uk/news/article/14421/scheduled_flights_restart_from_wick_john_o_groats_airport_wi th_year-round_air_link_between_caithness_and_aberdeen_secured_in_new _deal)

[Atlantic Explorer]

Scheduled flights restart from Wick John O’ Groats Airport with year-round air link between Caithness and Aberdeen secured in new deal | The Highland Council (https://www.highland.gov.uk/news/article/14421/scheduled_flights_restart_from_wick_john_o_groats_airport_wi th_year-round_air_link_between_caithness_and_aberdeen_secured_in_new _deal)

Oh dear. They managed to kill the route before, they now have even less operational aircraft. Can’t see this ending well.

[ATIS31]

Oh dear. They managed to kill the route before, they now have even less operational aircraft. Can’t see this ending well.
At least the price is more sensible now

[inOban]

The price to the PAX or the price to the the taxpayer?

[SealinkBF]

The price to the PAX or the price to the the taxpayer?

Ouch :8 From John O' Groat Journal: It will be funded by £1 million from Transport Scotland and £300,000 a year from Highland Council.

Flights start at £39.99 each way, with up to three per day. And a Sunday service. This is better than the previous service. A shame onward connectivity to say, BA is missing.

[davidjohnson6]

The contract for Wick-Edinburgh flights was not able to be awarded. It might be readvertised at a later date

[inOban]

There is an arguable need for the Aberdeen service as there will be some NHS patients who need to access services in Aberdeen which aren't available in Inverness. Not sure about Edinburgh.

[davidjohnson6]

Eastern will be paid £ 4,296,449.00 for flying the Aberdeen-Wick route over 3 years. Any VAT (if it exists) is extra
Apart from Eastern, there was one other (unnamed) bidder - it was not from an EU member state, so the other bidder is presumably a UK airline
https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=MAR442915

Assuming 12 round trips per week, this comes to £1,150 of subsidy per one way flight

[AirportPlanner1]

It would have to be a UK airline, or have a G reg, to be able to fly it.

[ATIS31]

Eastern will be paid £ 4,296,449.00 for flying the Aberdeen-Wick route over 3 years. Any VAT (if it exists) is extra
Apart from Eastern, there was one other (unnamed) bidder - it was not from an EU member state, so the other bidder is presumably a UK airline
https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=MAR442915

Assuming 12 round trips per week, this comes to £1,150 of subsidy per one way flight


I thought it was £4 million over 4 years not 3 years ?

[davidjohnson6]

The original notice requesting bids can be found at:
https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=OCT429822
This mentions:
Duration in months: 36
This contract is subject to renewal: Yes
Description of renewals:
An extension for a period of up to 12 Months is possible.

Maybe it is 4 years...in which case the subsidy is £860 per one way flight

[Atlantic Explorer]

So is Eastern setting a local base again or using nightstopping crews?

[Fletch]

So is Eastern setting a local base again or using nightstopping crews?

It looks like it's done with an Aberdeen based aircraft flying ABZ-WIC-ABC so i'm guessing neither. A shame for the crew as the food in Mackays Hotel was very good.

[jmdavies86]

It looks like it's done with an Aberdeen based aircraft flying ABZ-WIC-ABC...

Incorrect; the aircraft will be stationed overnight at WIC from Sunday to Tuesday in order to provide an early morning flight to ABZ, departing at 7.20am.

[ScottishAviator]

Incorrect; the aircraft will be stationed overnight at WIC from Sunday to Tuesday in order to provide an early morning flight to ABZ, departing at 7.20am.
I assume you meant Sunday to Thursday

[LGWAlan]

I assume you meant Sunday to Thursday
Nope - Sunday to Tuesday - the 0720 T3 560 flight only operates Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday - the other days morning flight is 1040:

1 T3 560 123 WIC ABZ 0720 0800 0 25APR22 26OCT22 J41 0:40
2 T3 561 X67 WIC ABZ 1040 1120 0 18APR22 28OCT22 J41 0:40
3 T3 564 7 WIC ABZ 1550 1630 0 17APR22 23OCT22 J41 0:40
4 T3 568 345 WIC ABZ 1750 1830 0 27APR22 28OCT22 J41 0:40

1 T3 562 X67 ABZ WIC 0930 1010 0 18APR22 28OCT22 J41 0:40
2 T3 563 7 ABZ WIC 1440 1520 0 17APR22 23OCT22 J41 0:40
3 T3 567 X67 ABZ WIC 1640 1720 0 11APR22 28OCT22 J41 0:40
4 T3 567 7 ABZ WIC 1740 1820 0 01MAY22 23OCT22 J41 0:40

[Fletch]

Incorrect; the aircraft will be stationed overnight at WIC from Sunday to Tuesday in order to provide an early morning flight to ABZ, departing at 7.20am.

Apologies, I didn't really there was this variation in flights.

[Link Kilo]

Job going to "Manage, co-ordinate and support the new Wick John O Groats Public Service Obligation (PSO) contract, which is until 31 March 2025".

https://www.myjobscotland.gov.uk/councils/highland-council/jobs/project-officer-wick-public-service-obligation-fixed-term-until-31032025-caithness-house-wick-266520

[davidjohnson6]

Has the cake been delivered, journalists coming for the press conference and fire service ready for a water salute ?

[SealinkBF]

There wasn't even a press release from HIAL, although according to Twitter passengers were treated to free whisky from Old Pulteney.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1202/screenshot_20220411_204056_twitter_d5fc98fd41ae2c23c22dc4676 fa2910df1aaf56c.jpg

[Asturias56]

Whisky not Whiskey

[caSeSenSitive]

i often flew a couple of Plutomium rods from Dounray to Abington. Single pilot with only a BNFL policeman and his coffee flask sat on the one remaining seat at the back of a Bandit. Contract said to be at Dounray first thing , had to hang around in the middle of winter till 0930 when the office chaps/esses opened up. Director of BNFL then signed over the afore mentioned rods to a 22 year old to take charge of them flying single pilot down the spine of the UK… Guess that isn’t SOP now?

[SealinkBF]

Whisky not Whiskey

You'd best tell the person who tweeted if you feel that strongly about it.

[SealinkBF]

Has the cake been delivered, journalists coming for the press conference and fire service ready for a water salute ?

Looks like there was a water salute. From Twitter: (@WickSnapper)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x600/20220415_001248_3a290dc5ab8d5bf817d6e1335be5fa646caf7166.jpg

[Richard Taylor]

Can't imagine there could have been many water salutes for a JE41 on a service f/t ABZ :O

[Link Kilo]

'Fight on our hands' to save Wick-Aberdeen flights, claim MSPs​​​

https://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/fight-on-our-hands-to-save-wick-aberdeen-flights-claim-ms-333981/

[CabinCrewe]

It needs GLA or EDI to try and make this work again.
Lovely area and nice little airport when I was last through.
Eastern maybe not my first choice of carrier.

[davidjohnson6]

Reading the news article, it sounds like Wick-Aberdeen flights will definitely operate until 31 March 2024... but no guarantee at all for April 2024. Is this a fair interpretation of the situation or have I made 2+2=5 ?

[ATIS31]

Flights started in April 2022 I thought it was funded on a 3 year deal so would end in March 2025. If flights are stopping after March 2024 has funding been cut ? Advertising has been poor or non existent so no surprise passenger numbers have been poor plus as CabinCrew said they need something to the rental belt for onward connections.

[SWBKCB]

Flights started in April 2022 I thought it was funded on a 3 year deal so would end in March 2025. If flights are stopping after March 2024 has funding been cut ? Advertising has been poor or non existent so no surprise passenger numbers have been poor plus as CabinCrew said they need something to the rental belt for onward connections.From the article:

Writing to Caithness, Sutherland and Ross MSP Maree Todd (SNP) last month, Ms Hyslop said that passenger numbers using the service remained “significantly below what was projected in the original business case. For the original offer of Scottish Government support in 2021, passenger growth was in reference to these projections with our future funding being dependent on a growth in numbers,” the letter stated.

It added: “You are aware of the significant pressure that the Scottish Government budget faces in future years. Any decision on contributing to the funding of the service beyond 31 March 2024 must be taken in this context, and will also take account of the further information to be provided by Highland Council. That decision will be taken as part of the 2024-25 Budget process.”

[Nipper1011]

The problem with any publically-funded route is that the funding body and/or its local advisers can influence the schedule. The Eastern schedule post-PSO has reverted to a Wick-based aircraft. The sad reality is that most of the demand for this route is inbound and therefore does not favour a Wick-based aircraft pattern. Connectivity at Aberdeen, especially with BAW to/from LHR is vital, but not well supported by the current schedule.
There is a lower than average propensity to fly among local Caithness residents. Those few who do need an early departure can drive to Inverness much faster than used to be the case. Most would prefer to leave the day before and overnight at or near their destination to be in position for morning meetings. This route needs a schedule originating in the South and optimised for connections to/from London over Aberdeen. There are pronounced directional peaks at the start and end of the week. This means that the capacity of the aircraft (up to around 30 seats) detemines what the Monday morning northbound and Friday afternoon southbound loads will be. For the remainder of the week, any aircraft that comes close to meeting those demand peaks will fly with a very low average seat factor.
Caithness is, however, a lovely part of the World.

[Asturias56]

I suspect the good people of Wick want an early flight out so THEY can connect with the outside world

[davidjohnson6]

What happens in winter when the weather turns bad, to both flights at Wick/Aberdeen and the road from Wick to Inverness ? Are both reliably open or is one more vulnerable to weather-related issues ?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Wick had a long running Loganair connection to EDI for onward connections which was slowly killed by the increase in options out of INV. I would suggest that the return of BA to LHR and KLM offering AMS was a better option for local connectivity than a connection x 2 over EDI. I have flown Eastern's ABZ-WIC-ABZ, I mean being an avgeek, why not? But not sure it's a sensible use of taxpayers money if the market can get to INV most of the time without subsidy and with good options. Of course if that were to change and WIC were to have been closed.....?

[ATIS31]

I Think if they could have got flights to the central belt that would have been a better option. The connections you can get from Edinburgh you can go virtually anywhere the USA,Canada and flights with Qatar to Doha and Easyjet offering great European holiday destinations. Aberdeen by comparison has limited connections and is priced to suit business people and oil workers.

[SealinkBF]

The other problem is Eastern's complete lack of partners at Aberdeen, so any connecting booking is at passengers own risk. At least Loganair had a codeshare with BA.
I remember many years ago getting a flight from Heathrow to Wick for £69. Those were the days!

[SealinkBF]

What happens in winter when the weather turns bad, to both flights at Wick/Aberdeen and the road from Wick to Inverness ? Are both reliably open or is one more vulnerable to weather-related issues ?

The road is much better now but there are snow gates around Helmsdale - can't remember last time they were closed.
But Wick also suffers from dense sea mist in the summer, which affects morning flights. I remember days when you couldn't see you hand at the end of your arm!

[davidjohnson6]

Two months later... has there been any conclusion to the debate about whether there should continue to be a public subsidy for Eastern flying Wick - Aberdeen ? I haven't seen anything in the press and am wondering what the status is... I'm guessing Govt has to give Eastern reasonable notice if subsidy levels are to change

[SealinkBF]

The road is much better now but there are snow gates around Helmsdale - can't remember last time they were closed.
But Wick also suffers from dense sea mist in the summer, which affects morning flights. I remember days when you couldn't see you hand at the end of your arm!

Well, they were closed last week!

That said, no flights could gave operated anyway!

This is from north of the snow gates...

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/img_20240118_wa0000_610b1382365820c02bcff4f8617242dd4b72efab .jpg

[SealinkBF]

PSO secured for another year.

Wick to Aberdeen flights to continue after funding secured - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxemzr82xjvo)

Transport Scotland confirm funding for Wick- Aberdeen PSO for 2024/25 | The Highland Council (https://www.highland.gov.uk/news/article/15911/transport_scotland_confirm_funding_for_wick-_aberdeen_pso_for_202425)

[jmdavies86]

Wick to Aberdeen flights to continue after funding secured - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxemzr82xjvo)

A spokesperson said: "The contract to operate the route was primarily designed to support business in the Caithness area and we want to see strong and clear support from local business organisations translate into more passengers.”

The way I read this would seem to suggest that it's the last chance for the PSO funding of the route and if there isn't an increase in patronage, then it likely won't continue beyond 2025.

Anyone know what the passenger loads have been like and/or how Eastern's performance as an operator has been as they've certainly had some reliability issues on other routes?

[SealinkBF]

The way I read this would seem to suggest that it's the last chance for the PSO funding of the route and if there isn't an increase in patronage, then it likely won't continue beyond 2025.

Anyone know what the passenger loads have been like and/or how Eastern's performance as an operator has been as they've certainly had some reliability issues on other routes?

Indeed, the news article on the Highland Council page (I have added the link above) states:

" It’s now vitally important that we maintain and increase local support for the PSO route in order that we continue to ensure its future going forward.”

It doesn't really help that Eastern have no codeshare arrangements with other airlines at Aberdeen, so it's basically a point to point service.