Don’t Kowtow to CASA ADSB Mandate if Safety is Improved by Spending Money Elsewhere

[Dick Smith]

The extraordinary CASA ADSB mandate for all aircraft that fly IMC from February 2017 still appears to be going ahead.

If you remember, the CASA Regulation Impact Statement (RIS) stated, that the cost would be over $30 million for general aviation. Of course, as we all know, there is no measurable safety issue being addressed. AOPA and other groups have asked for the mandate to be delayed, so it matches the New Zealand ADSB mandate – 1 year after the US mandate comes in at 2020. This will result in very low cost equipment being available.

In the USA there is no ADSB mandate ,even in 2020 for IFR aircraft that fly below 10,000ft in E and G airspace, unless the aircraft is within 30 nautical miles of a class B airport.

It’s clear now that CASA is a dysfunctional organisation and its Board has absolutely no control over what is going on within.

Respected industry figures I speak to, all believe that one day – even though it may be the day before the mandate comes in – sanity will be restored and the mandate will be moved to a more suitable date.

My suggestion to those who are looking around at mortgaging their houses so they can buy the ADSB equipment, is to wait if they believe they could spend that money on improving safety in a far better way.

Shouldn’t be hard. Possibly updating the fleet and using more modern aircraft.

A number of pilots I’ve spoken to are simply going to take their aircraft out of the IFR category and fly VFR from February 2017 onwards. This will clearly reduce safety.

I’ve tried to find out why CASA is insisting on this mandate, which no other country in the world follows. I can only find out it is accepting the Airservices push to bring this in earlier than other countries, so Airservices management can receive some type of international award for being first.

If so, this is outrageous. If someone else knows a different and more respectable reason for this early mandate, please publish it here.

[Dick Smith]

Interesting. No one has another explanation after 12 hours .

[rutan around]

Dick I think it is a serious case of lack of situational awareness by ASA and CASA. They don't seem to recognize that aviation wise we are a pissant country with relatively few aircraft and a huge area of land.

If it is shown that the early introduction of ATSB is nothing more than ego driven skiting then they should be sued in a class action for the difference in price of ADSB equipment in 2017 and the price when it is mandated in the US.

Their arrogance is breathtaking . Forcing Australians to buy ridiculously expensive equipment now when we know that in a few years it will be a fraction of the current price is nothing short of criminal.

CASA and ASA should have to present a cost/ benefit analysis showing why although we coped all these years without ADSB suddenly we can't cope a few more years until the price becomes affordable.

[Frank Arouet]

What is AOPS's current stance?

[Slippery_Pete]

Wow, another ADSB thread.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Could it be that 'military minds' have made this decision 'cause they thought it to be a 'good idea' without having any regard to the cost to civilian COMMERCIAL operators, who have to make a living by charging competitive COMMERCIAL rates to their clients, and do NOT have any taxpayers funds to pay for it..???

Could it be...???

No Cheers. Nope - NONE at ALL. :=

[no_one]

Dick,

Exaggerating the situation to make your point just leads to confusion and those who would otherwise support your position stop listening to what you say. While I dont agree with how CASA implemented ABS-B in Australia there are a few key factual errors in what you have posited that I feel the need to point out to you yet again:

You say: "In the USA there is no ADSB mandate ,even in 2020 for IFR aircraft that fly below 10,000ft in E and G airspace, unless the aircraft is within 30 nautical miles of a class B airport."

This is not strictly correct. 14 CFR 91.225 requires ADS-B for flight in class C airspace and in the class E airspace above class C. Class C airspace is fairly extensive in the USA around many minor airports. While it would be possible, operating IFR after 2020 in the USA without ADS-B is not going to be easy.

The other thing that you don't mention is that in the USA, after 2020, ADS-B will be required for VFR flight in these areas. Do you advocate that in Australia as well?

[wishiwasupthere]

Interesting. No one has another explanation after 12 hours .

Or maybe everyones reached 'peak Dick' and nobody can be bothered getting into a circuitous discussion with you anymore?

[peterc005]

Personally, I disagree with Dick and think the ADSB implementation in Australia is a good idea that will improve situational awareness and safety.

ADSB and the new integrated ATC system will lift Australian aviation navigation to a leading place in the world.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Sounds like the 'party line' response.....

The 'Time Line'..??

Cost / benefits to IFR? 'Now' vs Wait awhile until the USA mandate and the 'things' become more economical..?

To VFR???? All areas..??

All levels - Above 10,000ft for example..?

Class D airports, e.g, BK, JT etc..??.'

no cheers

[le Pingouin]

No-one gives a rats about feeding the troll anymore?

[Dick Smith]

No one. Class C is not around minor airports. Class C in the US requires a full terminal primary and secondary radar service and they are BIG airports by Australian standards. Many equivalent to Brisbane or Sydney.

How does it improve situational awareness when hardly anyone has an installed ADSB " IN" unit.

Peter ; And why do we need improved situational awareness? What is the risk that is being adressed for the $30 million plus bill for GA.? How can we be a leading place in the world when Airservices have installed hardly any ground stations?

No one. An IFR pilot will be able to operate to hundreds of class D and E airports across the USA without the cost of ADSB. Even be able to operate a full IFR flying school from a class D tower airport complete with dual ILSs and then do multiple approaches and training to class E approach airports with no expensive ADSB fitment.

[no_one]

Dick,

I am generally on your side but when you don't respond to civilized discussion in a constructive way you make it hard to support you....

Compared to the likes of Charlotte, Boston and Houston (Class B) the likes of Fayettville, Lexington and Huntsville are pretty minor(class C). Your hypothetical IFR in the USA without ADS-B is fairly limited in where they can go.

You Said "An IFR pilot will be able to operate to hundreds of class D and E airports across the USA without the cost of ADSB. Even be able to operate a full IFR flying school from a class D tower airport complete with dual ILSs and then do multiple approaches and training to class E approach airports with no expensive ADSB fitment."

While this is true the FAA part 61.65 requires:

(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves--

(a) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;
(b) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(c) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.



While what you say is possible in practice it would be a very limiting thing to be operating at a a Class D airport without going into a class c zone.

Do you advocate ADS-B for VFR flights in the same way that the USA will require after 2020?

[Frank Arouet]

QUOTE "No-one gives a rats about feeding the troll anymore?" QUOTE


I'm at a loss as to who is the Troll.

[CaptainMidnight]

when Airservices have installed hardly any ground stations70-something commissioned and a bunch more going in .......

[megle2]

My guess the troll referred to is the Peter guy who is trolling for a bite

[Jabawocky]

no_one
While what you say is possible in practice it would be a very limiting thing to be operating at a a Class D airport without going into a class c zone.

Do you advocate ADS-B for VFR flights in the same way that the USA will require after 2020?

You raise an excellent point. I was a very early adopter, have been ADSB compliant for maybe 4-5 years now. I see some benefit and longer term expect to see more.

I like your line of questioning. If the IFR mandate were to be extended as per the USA, like all of Dicks arguments he will want to follow them, but not all of what they do. Cherry picking it is called.

I think the VFR post 2020 deal would be an excellent idea. And ASA should be made put in all the extra ground stations to ensure coverage at A045 and above across the country. :ok:

I would be happy to wait for that :D

[rutan around]

CASA and ASA should have to present a cost/ benefit analysis showing why although we coped all these years without ADSB suddenly we can't cope a few more years until the price becomes affordable. I made the above statement in an earlier post on this thread. Perhaps a couple of supporters of the unseemly haste with which ADSB is being forced upon us could explain why it is so important it be done right now. It would be educational to know if those same supporters will have to spend any of their own money on their own aircraft in order to comply.

They could also confirm or deny that CASAs care factor is ZERO whether a few years delay will save the industry millions.

[KRviator]

70-something commissioned and a bunch more going in ....... Where do we find out where these mysterious ground stations are? AirServices says out-of-service stations will be NOTAM'ed, but I'll be damned if I can find a reference (other than pie-in-the-sky maps from years ago) to the current installations.

[Dick Smith]

The ground stations are not the whole problem.

Airservices don't appear to have put in the hard work and money to have the ADSB returns shown in the terminal facilities in Sydney and Canberra. Others report Willy Approach also can't display ADSB returns.

What a con. GA has to pay over $30 million and it doesn't even work in busy terminal airspace where risk is higher.

And yes, lots would support the US ADSB requirement for VFR if Australia allowed the freedoms of the US system for VFR. But that's unlikely to happen .

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey Jab,

Re ' I think the VFR post 2020 deal would be an excellent idea '.....

How much do ya reckon for a DH-82 to be 'so equipped'..?? 'Tis a VFR DH-82.....

That's the complete package, ADSB unit (Out / In?), plus the 'Approved GPS Source' Plus the EO, Plus maybe a bigger generator or alternator, plus....

And the cost / benefit??

Cost - As I told Mr Skidmore, potentially a quarter to a third of the value of the aircraft.

Benefit - **** ALL....

"Look before ya leap"....

Cheers :ok:

[KRviator]

Others report Willy Approach also can't display ADSB returns.Willy Approach, maybe, but I was tooling back and forth overhead Cessnock yesterday and posed the question to the helpful ATC'er in Brisbane Centre, and she said she had both Mode C and ADS-B returns from me.

[Car RAMROD]

How bout you shout everyone ADSB Dick, support the "struggling industry"?
Stop resisting change!

[Jabawocky]

Griffo, it would not affect you. Read the FAA rulings ;)

Unless you fly in certain places, which it might then do. But unlikely.

But the big, massive, humungus red undo Dick gave you would cover it easily. :hmm:

[Jabawocky]

Dick Smith,
The ground stations are not the whole problem.

Airservices don't appear to have put in the hard work and money to have the ADSB returns shown in the terminal facilities in Sydney and Canberra. Others report Willy Approach also can't display ADSB returns.

What a con. GA has to pay over $30 million and it doesn't even work in busy terminal airspace where risk is higher.

And yes, lots would support the US ADSB requirement for VFR if Australia allowed the freedoms of the US system for VFR. But that's unlikely to happen .

Dick, have you been to talk to the folk who know about this stuff? I am but a mere "nobody" and what would I know about aviation anyway, but I have worked it out.

In the terminal area's where 3NM separation standards are used they have a requirement for Primary Radar backing a high speed Mode S radar. Now the Mode S transponder just happens to be the same bit of gear that when plugged into the magenta line generator, it gives the enroute guys your ADSB.

Its all there but different layers are used for different purposes. :ok:

I am sure someone who really knows what they are talking about could explain it better for you.

:ok:

[Dick Smith]

So why the incredibly expensive ADSB mandate if mode S will do. My whole point.

[Jabawocky]

Dick, the expensive high speed TAR's are only in the big airports and have limited range.

Different to the out in the boonies radars.

Ask the guys who really know about it….I am just a nobody, you know that. ;)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Ta.................

The 'do' is almost 'done'.....

[Flying Binghi]

via peterc005:
...ADSB and the new integrated ATC system will lift Australian aviation navigation to a leading place in the world.

Yep, leading place alright. We is gonna be the first country that grounds our entire civvy aircraft fleet when we lose GPS...:hmm:

It is increasingly being recognised that terrorist groups will be using bomb drones for attacks. Unless in visual range, these bomb drone attacks need GPS to be effective. There is as yet no viable defence to terrorist bomb drone attacks short of turning off civvy GPS.

I am yet to see anything from ASA or CASA addressing the bomb drone risk and the loss of GPS.




.

[Plazbot]

Has the mother ship not taken you back to their planet yet?

[Flying Binghi]

Meanwhile, out in the real world...

""...the dangerous capabilities of drones are increasing and yet they are already being used by terrorists and activists. “The technology of remote-control warfare is impossible to control,” the report says.

“Islamic State [Isis] is reportedly obsessed with launching a synchronised multi-drone attack on large numbers of people in order to recreate the horrors of 9/11.” The report points out that Isis is already using drones for reconnaissance in Iraq and Syria...""


UK should prepare for use of drones in terrorist attacks, says thinktank | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/11/drones-terrorist-attacks-security-thinktank)




.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
One practical item missing in this discussion, in US, UAT ADS-B is available for all un-pressurised (a bit of a simplification) aircraft at a fraction of the price of 1090ES transponders and associated bits and pieces.

US GA already has a "cheap" system available, which is part of the reason why 1090ES is not going to become a whole lot cheaper --- because the mass market will be UAT, not a tarted up bit of seriously data constrained ancient technology, whose heritage is WWII IFF.

The big production numbers will be UAT, with further price drops --- all of NBUAA to aviation is Australia.

The fact remains (although ignored by most of you) that ADS-B in Australia was never an answer to a demonstrated risk, let alone a cost/benefit justified measure.

"Somebody" decided we were going to have it, and that was that, and to hell with the cost --- except of course, for AsA cost savings, because all IFR will have a C-145/146 GPS as a "side effect" of the ADS-B mandate.
Forcing the adoption of C-145/146 GPS and the Navaid Rationalisation program it "enabled", was the real driver for the ADS-B mandate.

I do have to have a bit of a (hollow) laugh when everybody so studiously ignores the "elephant in the room".

Tootle pip!!

[missy]

Duck Smith said
So why the incredibly expensive ADSB mandate if mode S will do. My whole point.

Are you advocating for the widespread roll out of additional radars to cover more and more airspace? That is, radar coverage across mainland Australia plus Tasmania, and the installation of Terminal radars at all Towered airports?
And how much would that all cost?

[Awol57]

Cessnock eh? They've got that far then. Pity there's nothing but 'sort yourselves out, cus we can't see ya' at airline hubs like Dubbo, Merimbula and Moruya.

Just don't head too far West from Cessnock. You'll soon hear 'identification terminated'. ADS-B costs more than your plane is worth and is next to useless.

The best place to get ADS-B information is from Flightaware. They seem to be able to receive ADS-B information anywhere they have a member sitting at home in their lounge room with a $10 home made receiver.... And then publish it on their website. Why are ASA finding this such a challenge and spending sooooo much of our money?

Good idea. Lets chuck an ipad into each sector loaded with flightradar and planefinder and just control off that. Pretty sure old mate with his dial up connection in Dubbo will be a rock solid provider with minimal latency.

There is an awful lot of Australia west of Cessnock. Pretty sure you'd get reidentified somewhere along the way.