What level of airline employee chooses registrations?

[c52]

Such a small matter, but someone in BA thought that G-ZZZ_ and G-VII_ were good for their 777s, and G-EU__ for small Airbuses but G-XL__ for XL Airbuses. And to put G-RAES on a 777 for the RAeS I'd have thought quite a high-level decision.

Someone in Virgin must have decided that G-VBUG was good and not prone to mockery.

So I wonder how senior a person gets to decide these tiny questions? A clerk in the purchasing department, or the director of marketing?

[wiggy]

but someone in BA thought that G-ZZZ_ and G-VII_ were good for their 777s...... And to put G-RAES on a 777 for the RAeS I'd have thought quite a high-level decision.


Yeah.... and in the opinion of some (self included) not the best one ever made...RAES in particular gets a lot of stick from one or two in high office because they have to deal with the paperwork and certificates associated with the airframes.

I know some of the public and marketing might like the fancy letters but the trouble for the end users (pilots, engineers) is that out sequence registrations can make the deciphering of the fleet/type manuals and even paper checklists (when used) less intuitive than perhaps it should be. In the case of the fleet in question you've got one sub type (if you include the A market frames') with registrations that use three different lead letters (i.e. R---,V---, and Z---), scattered about the alphabet. Fortunately at BA at least the other two subtypes ( the RR-200s and the -300s, stayed coherent as Y--- and S---).


Oh, no idea who actually picks the letter - probably either the boss or a committee somewhere!

[DaveReidUK]

While on the subject of British Airways personalised registrations, albeit a rather different Boeing product:

http://aircraftpics.no-ip.org/Aberdeen/19860528/slides/G-BWFC_CHINOOK_BAH_1.jpg

Chief Engineer at BA Helicopters in those days was W F (Fred) Charlton.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

TEA UK B737
G-DIAR - Ducks in a row
-G-NAFH Not a f%%king hope
Both aircraft came in at very short notice after the Air Europe crash
Regs assigned by pesky Engineers with a sense of humour

[c52]

I believe Air UK had G-UK + a director's initials.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

There was a CRJ test airframe (s/n 7002) with the registration C-FNRJ. Say the bit after the dash out loud ....

[flash8]

In my early youth (late 70's) was given a hanger visit by a relative who worked in BA Engineering, recall a 747 (Classic in those days) in the hanger with the registration with the letters DXE in, that some enterprising guy had written an "I" in on the hull to get G-DIXIE (I think that was the nickname of that particular a/c). Anyone remember this?

[Rwy in Sight]

Virgin Airlines used to run a European service around mid-90's until 2001. They used an A320 with registration G-OUZO. Obviously not for the crew but it fit with the image of the airline.

[MerchantVenturer]

First Choice had A 320 G-OOAR based at Bristol for a while.

[El Bunto]

The Manx JS31s were graced with registrations selected by the MD at the time, and he had an exchange with 'Roger Bacon' about them in the back of Flight. Would have been the early 1990s.

G-WENT is one that comes to mind but the others have fled my memory.

Ah, 1991 Page 1073:

Dear Uncle Roger,

Now surely you know us better than that!

(S&l, 10-16 April).

Yours,
TERRY LIDDIARD
Managing Director
Manx Airlines
(Operator of G-LEGS, G-ISLE, G-WENT,
G-OJET, G-OATP, G-UIET etc..)[ Accompanying a photo of G-GLAM ]

[Oceanic815]

One only has to look at the Virgin fleet to see some great registrations for aircraft names!:D


Virgin Atlantic Fleet List (http://www.jethros.org.uk/fleets/fleet_listings/virgin_atlantic.htm)

[El Bunto]

The BA 757s were a bit of a mess in terms of registration.

First reservations ( at £90 a pop ) were G-BIJG to JR. Cancelled and re-reserved as G-BIKF to KY and then each one of those in turn was cancelled and reallocated to different airframes in the batch. No idea what was going-on there!

e.g. G-BIKR was originally for cn 22187, but that airframe was moved to G-BIKO and 22189 took G-BIKR instead of being G-BIKT.

G-BIKZ was tacked-on a couple of months later.

So, to reiterate the OP's question... whodunnit? Who makes that decision?

[TURIN]

The BA regions operated a fleet of 737-500 with regs ending in MAN, AMS, CDG etc.
To say it caused confusion is an understatement.

I know who's idea it was too.

But I'm keeping MUM.

[DaveReidUK]

The BA regions operated a fleet of 737-500 with regs ending in MAN, AMS, CDG etc.

They had MAN, BHX, AMS, HAJ, FRA and MUC (I can't find any trace of a CDG).

All were 737-300s, by the way.

[+TSRA]

So I wonder how senior a person gets to decide these tiny questions? A clerk in the purchasing department, or the director of marketing?

From the last two companies I have worked at, it was the CEO in concert with the DFO who made such decisions. I would hate to think that marketing would ever have a say in such things...they already try to influence a flight ops department too much! :)

Anyways, going back to my previous companies. They had a number of sequential registrations reserved from the regulator and would decide on an annual basis whether to continue the reservations (funnily, it wasn't cheap). Sometimes they would decide they wouldn't need as many and let the reservation lapse.

Sometimes though the regulator simply runs out of registrations within a "series" and the airline takes whatever is next in sequence to be issued. Although from a spotting view it may seem silly, from an airline point of view it's just a tail number so there is not a second thought given.

[wiggy]

With my very ex-spotters hat on a question - I always got the impression that for years the reg's on the British register were always issued strictly in a sequence and that the out of sequence tailored regs only started with G-BSST. I did the bulk of my spotting in the 60's/early 70's and don't recall any funnies before Concorde came along. Did I simply lead a sheltered youth or did Concorde start the rot......

[Rwy in Sight]

There was an airline who accepted a reservation ..-DIE. Its CEO said they accepted because they read it like Delta India Echo rather this pessimistic word. I think they later change it to ..-TIE.

[DaveReidUK]

With my very ex-spotters hat on a question - I always got the impression that for years the reg's on the British register were always issued strictly in a sequence and that the out of sequence tailored regs only started with G-BSST. I did the bulk of my spotting in the 60's/early 70's and don't recall any funnies before Concorde came along. Did I simply lead a sheltered youth or did Concorde start the rot......

Yes, I'm pretty sure Concorde in 1968 was the first wildly out-of-sequence registration, done because G-ASST was already flying (and still is) on a Cessna 150. Before then, you could reserve a registration that would be coming up soon anyway, but it would still be a G-Axxx mark.

There were only a couple over the next few years, notably the Harrier demonstrators G-VTOL and G-VSTO in 1970/71 and the late Ormond Haydon-Baillie somehow charming the CAA into giving him personalised registrations for his pair of T-33s in 1974.

The floodgates opened in about 1977 and we haven't looked back, so to speak.

[DaveReidUK]

There was an airline who accepted a reservation ..-DIE. Its CEO said they accepted because they read it like Delta India Echo rather this pessimistic word. I think they later change it to ..-TIE.

Many airlines are superstitious about registering an aircraft with the same "last two" as one previously involved in an accident, particularly as it was often just those two letters that would be painted on the NW doors.

An obvious example is BA's A319 fleet, where they use all the available G-EUPx registrations with the exception of Papa India.

[Wookey]

Were the original BA Airbus' (inherited from BCal?) registered G- BUS....?
Also I seem to remember a Britannia 737(?) seen regularly at Newcastle with reg G-BYAI (whyaye). Always wondered if that was deliberate!

[philbky]

With my very ex-spotters hat on a question - I always got the impression that for years the reg's on the British register were always issued strictly in a sequence and that the out of sequence tailored regs only started with G-BSST. I did the bulk of my spotting in the 60's/early 70's and don't recall any funnies before Concorde came along. Did I simply lead a sheltered youth or did Concorde start the rot......

The Aviation Traders Accountant executive turboprop, of which the prototype was the sole example, was G-ATEL. This first flew in 1957 around eight years before G-ATEx series was issued. Freddie Laker had some pull in those days!

[Hotel Tango]

In good old typical PPRuNe fashion, lots of posts, none of which actually answer the OP's question! It has just turned into a long list of out-of-sequence registrations. :hmm:

[wiggy]

Thanks DR, that makes sense, and I'd forgotten that G-VTOL came along shortly thereafter.

philbky - thanks, didn't know about that..

H T

In good old typical PPRuNe fashion, lots of posts, none of which actually answer the OP's question!

Well somebody has got to maintain standards. :E...in any event maybe there simply isn't a definitive answer to the OPs question...It might depend on the company and how much clout somebody there has with those who issue the "plates" (philbky's point) ....then again it might not :uhoh:

[Planemike]

With my very ex-spotters hat on a question - I always got the impression that for years the reg's on the British register were always issued strictly in a sequence and that the out of sequence tailored regs only started with G-BSST. I did the bulk of my spotting in the 60's/early 70's and don't recall any funnies before Concorde came along. Did I simply lead a sheltered youth or did Concorde start the rot......


Back in those days they were something of "one off" but go back way beyond Concorde. G-EDCA was allocated in December 1927 to a deH 60 Genet Moth. The normal sequence at the time was in the range G-EBAA - BZZ. The same marks were re-allocated to a deH 60X Moth. Even today re-allocation of marks in not generally permitted and there are very few examples on the UK register.


In more modern times (1957) G-ATEL was allocated to the Aviation Traders Accountant (ah, just seen it above!!). In 1950 Auster 5J G-AHHE was reregistered G-AERO. G-AFLT was reallocated to a Miles Gemini. Somebody at "Flight" must have had some influence with the ARB.


The issuing of the marks G-ARJB was anticipated and just happened to be allocated to a deH 104 Dove owned by R J Bamford, he of JCB fame.


There are quite a few other examples before the practice become common place.

[Planemike]

Many airlines are superstitious about registering an aircraft with the same "last two" as one previously involved in an accident, particularly as it was often just those two letters that would be painted on the NW doors.

An obvious example is BA's A319 fleet, where they use all the available G-EUPx registrations with the exception of Papa India.


BOAC went to the trouble of registering Britannia 102 G-ANBG. It became the rather more prosaic G-APLL.........


Another which did fly for a while was Westland S51 G-ANAL. Minimal repainting was required to convert this into G-ANZL !!

[TURIN]

They had MAN, BHX, AMS, HAJ, FRA and MUC (I can't find any trace of a CDG).

All were 737-300s, by the way.

Quite correct, my mistake.

[Planemike]

and the late Ormond Haydon-Baillie somehow charming the CAA into giving him personalised registrations for his pair of T-33s in 1974.


At the same time he also persuaded them to reallocate G-AGHB to his Sea Fury.......

[kcockayne]

The BA 757s were a bit of a mess in terms of registration.

First reservations ( at £90 a pop ) were G-BIJG to JR. Cancelled and re-reserved as G-BIKF to KY and then each one of those in turn was cancelled and reallocated to different airframes in the batch. No idea what was going-on there!

e.g. G-BIKR was originally for cn 22187, but that airframe was moved to G-BIKO and 22189 took G-BIKR instead of being G-BIKT.

G-BIKZ was tacked-on a couple of months later.

So, to reiterate the OP's question... whodunnit? Who makes that decision?

Yes, that's what I would like to know. No one has answered that yet. Does anyone know ?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

You either take the reg from the CAA or if you want reserve the reg. In the airline i work for the compliance / quality dept manages this - might be different else where

[QA1]

When I worked for them, the BA Engineering Quality department would research availability and agree suitable registrations, based on a set of guidelines,
with the delivery project manager, who would then circulate the suggested registrations to interested departments for comment.

If there were no objections we reserved the suggested registrations with the CAA.

Sometimes specific letters were requested, such as G-EU for the A319 and more recently. G-GAT for the LGW based A320 aircraft.

So in answer to your question, the initial suggestion could often originate from relatively low down the food chain, but the ultimate
decision was effectively taken collectively in conjunction with other interested departments - not sure what happens in other organisations.

[c52]

Actually I find a range of answers above, right up to CEO. Obviously the sort of decision you can only take when you're responsible for a whole airline, and actually, more or less what I'd have guessed/

[Jwscud]

I understand the boss of Titan Airways was a big fan of the old Batman and he picked their registrations. They are all G-ZAPx or G-POWx or similar.

Callsign "Zap" as well - always liked that.

[FLCH]

My wife's old outfit was Mesaba Airlines the owner was a Jaguar car enthuiast so some of the registrations ended in XJ.

[KNIEVEL77]

And of course the owner of Leicester City has a helicopter with the registration G-LCFC.

[ahwalk01]

RAES in particular gets a lot of stick from one or two in high office because they have to deal with the paperwork and certificates associated with the airframes

RAES hopefully has very little to do with such paperwork? Unless I'm misreading it

[DaveReidUK]

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/4/7/3/1174374.jpg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/2/3/6/2254632.jpg

No, not a repaint job, this is one of the very few instances where the same G- registration has flown on two different aircraft.

[dixi188]

Channel Express had two H.P. Heralds named after the Engineering Directors sons: G-SCTT and G-STVN.
Later there was a competition among the staff to choose the registration for a F27 that came out as G-CHNX. My suggestion that the company reserve the G-CEX..x series did not win but that seemed to be the way forward for a few years until the arrival of the Boeing 737s.

So to answer the OPs question: Various people come up with the choice of registration but the senior management will make the ultimate decision.

[JB007]

I understand the boss of Titan Airways was a big fan of the old Batman and he picked their registrations. They are all G-ZAPx or G-POWx or similar.

Callsign "Zap" as well - always liked that.

Beat me to it Jwscud! In my airline, the owner...

[c52]

I could imagine that in the USA it's different - in fact, do airlines in any other countries try to have significant registrations?

There's a tendency to have xx-A and xx-B for Airbus and Boeings, though I noticed one airline where it's the other way round.

[El Bunto]

do airlines in any other countries try to have significant registrations? Aer Lingus block-booked EI-FK_ for their F50s in a clever play both on the manufacturer name and also in mirroring the original EI-AK_ sequence of their F27s. Someone had fun with that one, though I'm not sure they thought-through the pronunciation of 'FKA.

Then there were the US airlines that like to register N___AA/US/AS etc but that scheme was prone to interruption since you can reserve a reg with the FAA for $10 regardless of whether you have an aircraft. Always worth taking a punt to register N777UA and seeing if you can flip it on to an interested airline :)

[DaveReidUK]

I could imagine that in the USA it's different - in fact, do airlines in any other countries try to have significant registrations

There's less scope in the US, obviously, as all registrations are at least partly numeric with a maximum of two letters optionally tagged on to the end.

Where airlines are concerned, the best they can usually manage is to have their IATA designator (AA, DL, JB, etc) as part of the reg.

Some GA aircraft have pseudo-personalised marks, for example Occidental Oil (Oxy) have managed it in the past:

http://www.airport-data.com/images/aircraft/small/000/408/408294.jpg

[kenparry]

Also I seem to remember a Britannia 737(?) seen regularly at Newcastle with reg G-BYAI (whyaye). Always wondered if that was deliberate!

This was a B757-204; "whyaye" was not deliberate, but the crews did appreciate the joke. That purchase went from G-BYAC to G-BYAY, all new build except G-BYAM which was on lease from Monarch and built to a different standard.

[El Bunto]

With the FAA algorithmic-derivation scheme for ICAO hex addresses you can have some 'fun' by picking an N-reg that encodes to a specific hex code. N22AE gives A1DEAD, for example. Or perhaps N2189N / A1DADA for Daddy's birthday present.

The CAA doesn't use a mapping algorithm. Actually, with every UK-registered airframe now being issued an immutable hex address I wonder for how much longer the CAA will persist with registrations, which are essentially duplicate unique-IDs now.

Here comes G-4070D1 !

[susier]

I came across one which made me do a double take the other day whilst looking at line numbers of B777s.


LN #403 happens to be HL7700. It's registered to Asiana and currently active.


I'd have thought they might avoid a sequence like that - a bit like not having a number 13 in a street of houses?




(although ironically, it's LN #404 which had the bad luck - that one's 9M-MRO)

[Alsacienne]

For interest look at the WOW fleet ... TF-BRO, -SIS, -MOM, -DAD, -GAY for starters!

[oldlag53]

...I believe Air UK had G-UK + a director's initials...

Just have to correct you a bit, Mr. c52...

I was at Air UK at the time and never did find out who was the crawler who sucked up to the directors!!

G-UKJF - Jim French, went on to Flybe.
G-CHSR - Helmut Schmidt-Reps, our liaison bod with KLM, despite actually being German.
G-CSJH - Stephen Hanscombe, our MD. Went on to 'consulting'.
G-UKSC - Finance Director Stuart Carson. Went to Flybe before retiring.
G-UKPC - Dear old Phil Chapman, aviation bod through and through.
G-UKHP - Harold Payne, Dir. of Engineering.
G-UKRH - named after our accounts dept at Crawley (KRH).
G-UKLN - Len Nutter, can't remember what he did.
G-UKRC - Robert Coleman, Customer Services chap.
G-UKAG - MD Andrew Gray who succeeded SJH.
G-UKAC - Director/'Chief Pilot/Holder of AOC Alan Cottle.
G-UKID - ???
G-CNMF - ???

Air UK Leisure behaved themselves and just used G-UKL...

Ah, those were the days...

[posso]

Going back a few years there was G-AWOG Twin Comanche owned by the (late), HRH Prince William of Gloucester.


Seem to recall even back then 1968, eyebrows were raised at the choice of letters, given the owners position in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office!

[El Bunto]

Talking about vanity registrations, just crossing the UK this morning is a GLF4 of the FAA, registration N1 ...

South African had its SPs registered in the ZS-SP_ range.

Perhaps immune to such toomfoolery are the Japanese JAnnnn and South Korean HLnnnn series. I wonder, can one even request an out-of-sequence? JA8888 was allocated to an SF34 but looks to be in sequence with others in the fleet.