PDA

View Full Version : FAA validation in Europe


WrongWayCorrigan
8th Apr 2016, 21:18
Does anyone know the ins and outs of these FAA validations that EASA PPLs are getting in Europe based on their EASA licences? The FAA licences are issued in Europe so they can fly their smart N reg aeroplanes in Europe but none of them I have spoken to have heard about the need for a BFR. Apparently there is no review of US airspace, FAA regs or a flight when the piece of American plastic is issued. What am I missing here?

sapperkenno
8th Apr 2016, 22:08
Correct that there is a procedure to go through to get the piece of plastic, which itself does not involve a flight review or any other form of test or training...

However... In order for them to then use their FAA (based-on §61.75) certificates they must have a current flight review, and their underlying (ICAO/European) licence and medical must be completely 100% valid, as it would need to be to act as PIC in any euro registered aircraft. So a person must have the licence on which the FAA certificate rides on the back of valid (medical, licence and class rating current) as well as meeting the FAA requirements of having a current flight review, but being excused a specific FAA medical or licence skills-test as the FAA accepts their foreign ICAO level licence.

As far as no review of airspace etc, that would be the job of the FAA CFI giving them the review, and there is a mandatory requirement to cover part 91 of the FAR's. Any CFI worth his salt should really cover the pertinent parts of pt91, and not be of the mind that the person they are reviewing might never fly in the States, and not cover US charting, airspace classifications and VFR minima.

You may like to helpfully inform anyone you know without a current flight review with the above information. As an aside, you may also be surprised how many people flying in the UK as an example don't have the foggiest clue about if their licences and class ratings are valid, and a fair amount of people are likely flying illegally, albeit through a misunderstanding of the rules and reg's for PPL/NPPL/LAPL, rather than a malicious disregard for the rules - just thought I'd mention that if you had an axe to grind against FAA. It's not so perfect here either.

The major problem, unfortunately, is that there is no real FAA oversight of what goes on in the UK, and that aspect seems to attract certain members of society who like to flaunt the rules, as they think the CAA can't touch them as they're on FAA licences and US-registered aircraft, and the FAA are too far away to notice/care what's happening... Thus giving FAA operators/pilots in general a bad name when there are occasionally a few rotten apples.

There's also a lot of jealousy about as there is some nice kit around on N-reg, and a US instrument rating is far more attainable than the EASA equivalent. So it's hard not to feel an absolute mug trying to blindly follow the EASA system if you want to fly airways around Europe, and own something nice (that you can easily upgrade avionics in, that doesn't need checking every 50 hours), when the much more attractive FAA system can give you exactly what you require.

The term these days is "flight review" not BFR.

If you've got your facts right, it would be a bit crap to think people were getting certificates issued from one of the two DPEs in the UK who are allowed to do this, and having paid an obscene amount of money for something which is free in the US at a FSDO, weren't having it explained to them exactly what the ins and outs of their new certificates were.

WrongWayCorrigan
9th Apr 2016, 08:50
Thanks for the great reply. Very helpful. I currently have 2 Cirrus owners who paid several hundred pounds for what they described as a 5 minute discussion and assumed, quite reasonably, that their FAA licences were now fully valid. No familiarisation of airspace or Part 91 discussion or a flight review at all. Seems wrong and thanks for clarifying. I think you are absolutely spot on with the other points you mention.

selfin
9th Apr 2016, 21:57
... and their underlying (ICAO/European) licence and medical must be completely 100% valid ...

That isn't entirely true. See the FAA Office of Chief Counsel's legal opinion of 2012/03/22 to Andrew Krausz, Beaumont & Son, London, UK: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2012/krausz-beaumont&son%20-%20(2012)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

"The AAIB draws the conclusion ... that any and all limitations and restrictions that a pilot would be subject to under his foreign pilot certificate are incorporated in his US certificate, and apply equally under his US certificate. This conclusion is mistaken."

sapperkenno
10th Apr 2016, 09:14
So if EASA licence chap doesn't have a current SEP rating, are you suggesting his FAA certificate is still valid? Would this mean a UK CAA issued IR(R) (IMC rating in old money) would now be valid to fly N-reg around Europe, if using a FAA certificate issued on the basis of an EASA licence?
I think you're twisting it a little... but it's good as a thought experiment!

Imagine two Cessna Caravans, both alike, one with G, one with N-reg... Our EASA PPL, with SEP rating, and his based-on FAA certificate could operate the N-reg caravan on his FAA cert... To operate the G-reg one on his EASA licence would require SET differences training... But, would he be able to fly the G-reg one, just inside the UK, on his FAA ticket??

Duchess_Driver
10th Apr 2016, 12:33
On a slightly different note, but a related subject....

Can anyone state the current derrogated (?) state or not of FAA or ICAO PPL holders requiring a EASA validation for fly EASA aircraft. Specifically in the UK, Ireland and France.

I know what the rumours are, but if someone could point me to the IAA, UKCAA or DGAC webpage / piece of legislation that says this has been put back to 2017 again I would very grateful.

MTIA

DD

selfin
11th Apr 2016, 02:42
So if EASA licence chap doesn't have a current SEP rating, are you suggesting his FAA certificate is still valid?

That's a question for the FAA's Office of Chief Counsel.

Would this mean a UK CAA issued IR(R) (IMC rating in old money) would now be valid to fly N-reg around Europe, if using a FAA certificate issued on the basis of an EASA licence?

As they do not satisfy the ICAO Annex 1 definition of an instrument rating neither the British/Spanish IMC ratings nor the IR(R) provide a sufficient basis for including an instrument rating in an FAA certificate which is a necessary condition for operating in circumstances requiring compliance with the instrument flight rules.

This position is stated in ch. 7 sec. 21 of FAA Order 8900.2A CHG 2 (General Aviation Airman Designee Handbook) [link (http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.2A%20CHG%202)]:


127. General Information.
o. British National Pilot Licenses.

(4) The British CAA may issue an instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) rating. Holders of the British IMC privilege are not qualified to receive a U.S. instrument rating for the following reasons:

(a) The IMC privilege is not as high a level of qualification as the instrument rating and confers no privileges for flights requiring compliance with IFR.

(b) IMC privileges can be used only within the U.K. Therefore, a holder of the IMC privilege is not eligible to take the IFP knowledge test or be issued a U.S. instrument rating.

Peter Holt explores similar scenarios here: License Privileges, Aircraft Registers, Etc (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/misc-privileges/index.html)

I think you're twisting it a little... but it's good as a thought experiment!

How? I haven't offered any of my own opinions.

Imagine two Cessna Caravans, both alike, one with G, one with N-reg... Our EASA PPL, with SEP rating, and his based-on FAA certificate could operate the N-reg caravan on his FAA cert... To operate the G-reg one on his EASA licence would require SET differences training... But, would he be able to fly the G-reg one, just inside the UK, on his FAA ticket??

Henning Grossman, legal counsel at Delvag Luftfahrtversicherungs–AG (a Lufthansa-owned insurance company) in Cologne, posed a similar question to the FAA's Frankfurt International Field Office on 2014/03/13 to which the Office of Chief Counsel responded on 2014/08/06. In summary, the FAA doesn't have a problem with the scenario you've described.

The Grossman interpretation is available here: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/grossman-delvag%20luftfahrtversicherungs%20-%20(2014)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

selfin
12th Apr 2016, 04:36
Duchess_Driver,

The UK has invoked Article 14(4) of Regulation 216/2008 to provide a two month exemption from the validation requirements for third country licence holders. This is notified with applicable conditions in UK CAA Official Record Series 4 (ORS4) no. 1168 dated 2016/04/07, available here: http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1163..pdf

The explanatory note to the above general exemption states:

Temporary exemption from the requirements of Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 Annex III requiring the holders of ICAO Annex 1 flight crew licence holders to have their licences validated. This will enable continued operations pending confirmation of extension to 8 April 2017 of the EU Commission opt-out and subsequent UK derogation from the requirements specified in Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 Annex III.

A relevant posting from BEeagle on the amendment of Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 was made to this thread (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/577139-n-reg-ops-eu-domiciled-pilots-2.html#post9336454) and is copied below in its entirety.

Please note http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32016R0539&from=EN :

(3) paragraph 4 of Article 12 is replaced by the following:

‘4.By way of derogation from paragraph 1, Member States may decide not to apply the provisions of this Regulation until 8 April 2017 to pilots holding a licence and associated medical certificate issued by a third country involved in the non-commercial operation of aircraft as specified in Article 4(1)(b) or (c) of Regulation (EC) No 216/2008. Member States shall make those decisions publicly available.’

custardpsc
12th Apr 2016, 06:12
>So if EASA licence chap doesn't have a current SEP rating, are you suggesting his FAA certificate is still valid?

Current SEP rating and valid SEP rating and not having a revoked/cancelled EASA licence are three different things. If you mean - he has a valid EASA licence with a SEP rating but doesn't meet currency/revalidation requirements ( either for pax or hours/easa flight review) - yes he can fly using the priviledges of his FAA 61.75. ( even using his valid EASA medical, or an FAA medical) He, does however have to meet FAA currency for pax and BFR.

The wording of the 61.75 process is such that the underlying ( based -on ) certificate needs to be ICAO compliant and not revoked or suspended, just issued and not revoked. Nothing about currency or revalidation (in the annual sense) . And, yes, anyone getting a 61.75 FAA pilot certificate needs a BFR before they can use it.

custardpsc
12th Apr 2016, 06:20
Quote:
Imagine two Cessna Caravans, both alike, one with G, one with N-reg... Our EASA PPL, with SEP rating, and his based-on FAA certificate could operate the N-reg caravan on his FAA cert... To operate the G-reg one on his EASA licence would require SET differences training... But, would he be able to fly the G-reg one, just inside the UK, on his FAA ticket??

Until recently, yes. Day VFR only on the G reg one but yes. But would need FAA high performance/complex endorsement.

Duchess_Driver
13th Apr 2016, 18:05
@Selfin

Thanks, I received the IN from pilotvalidations about 20 seconds after I pulled the trigger on this request and have subsequently had notification from the DGAC stating a similar position.

Whilst the 'jungle drums' are usually correct /reliable - unfortunately I needed a bit more in the way of official confirmation.

Thanks once again!

sapperkenno
15th Apr 2016, 08:32
If you mean - he has a valid EASA licence with a SEP rating but doesn't meet currency/revalidation requirements
I was thinking more along the lines of valid EASA (lifetime) licence but SEP rating not valid, as per ratings page on licence... Yet has a current flight review for his §61.75 FAA certificate. Both medical and licence for EASA would be in date, just not SEP rating.
What are your thoughts?

This is what I was getting at earlier as far as the underlying EASA licence must be valid. But, if it is in fact not valid due to no current SEP, then would a based-on certificate take that into account when there is no such FAA SE rating?

custardpsc
1st May 2016, 12:34
The wording is that the foreign licence itself needs to be valid, not the ratings on it. I have seen that to be defined as "not suspended or revoked". And, for completeness, the presence or absence of an EASA medical isn't necessary, an FAA medical can be used in this situation .