View Full Version : FBI/DHS overflights in the US
Mascot PPL
7th Apr 2016, 14:31
Interesting Buzzfeed article on this with lots of FR24 trails etc. Worth a read.
Someone is racking up a lot of hours in Cessnas :-)
Spies In The Skies: Here?s Where FBI Planes Are Circling U.S. Cities (http://www.buzzfeed.com/peteraldhous/spies-in-the-skies)
Nemrytter
7th Apr 2016, 15:01
Yet another reason FR24 and their ilk should not be possible.
Hotel Tango
7th Apr 2016, 15:15
Yet another reason FR24 and their ilk should not be possible.
Why exactly?
Del Prado
7th Apr 2016, 15:33
Is FR24 dependent on Mode S ?
Can't they turn Mode S off or is it mandatory in that airspace?
Mascot PPL
7th Apr 2016, 15:46
Nemrytter - I did think that about the more rural trails from the West coast - some of the orbits were over very specific locations - not sure what sort of signals based intel the "bad guys" could get from that....
peekay4
7th Apr 2016, 15:46
Yet another reason FR24 and their ilk should be supported and expanded.
Fixed it for you.
Mascot PPL
7th Apr 2016, 15:49
HT - Signals based intel, in WWII a lot of intel was gained from traffic volumes etc even when signals weren't decrypted. Historic or real-time FR24 data could be used to check if you are being watched - I'd guess this risk only applies to rural locations or very time/location specific info in an urban area.
sansmoteur
7th Apr 2016, 17:51
peekay4
Yes indeed
You are using the public air space, society grants you access to the skies so your movements and information is open to the public.
Can't they turn Mode S off or is it mandatory in that airspace?
You underestimate the ingenuity of radio enthusiasts. Multilateration of Mode-C replies would give information similar to that of Mode-S or ADS-B. I don't think turning off transponders in a crowded airspace would be feasible.
OldLurker
7th Apr 2016, 19:27
Nice to know that the feds are using cheap old kit, human-piloted C182s, not spending billions on cool stealth stuff like the drones that the CIA are so fond of.
atakacs
7th Apr 2016, 19:35
Nice to know that the feds are using cheap old kit, human-piloted C182s, not spending billions on cool stealth stuff like the drones that the CIA are so fond of.
Just a matter of time by all means.
Lonewolf_50
7th Apr 2016, 20:36
Nice to know that the feds are using cheap old kit, human-piloted C182s, not spending billions on cool stealth stuff like the drones that the CIA are so fond of.DHS has been running predators for some years. Alleged purpose: surveillance of the Mexican border.
Airbubba
7th Apr 2016, 20:44
You underestimate the ingenuity of radio enthusiasts. Multilateration of Mode-C replies would give information similar to that of Mode-S or ADS-B. I don't think turning off transponders in a crowded airspace would be feasible.
And, with no small irony, multilateration techniques have been used for decades by signal intelligence reconnaissance aircraft to locate transmission sources.
Or, so they tell me... ;)
Cubs2jets
7th Apr 2016, 21:53
Interesting article. A basically good, factual article about one "tool" that law enforcement has at its disposal and evidence of its use. I'm disappointed about two "issues" that underlay the reporting.
The vauge conspiricy theory of "big brother is watching" is an unnecessary "slant" thrown in for certain readership diminishes the credibility of the reporter for me.
The fact that one "tool" of law enforcement is exposed (even though it hasn't really been hidden) DOES give the criminal element a heads up. I prefer that dumb criminals stay dumb and smart criminals be ignorant.
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you." Joseph Heller
C2j
Cubs2jets, Yes, aren't the writers awfully clever boys? :rolleyes:
Mascot PPL, People in the mil or sigint would, of course, know that but did the current bad guys?
Geosync
8th Apr 2016, 16:09
When I worked as a fueler at the local airport, the FBI had(and still has) a hangar with a fleet of Cessnas, the biggest being a C-208. This article is very accurate about the equipment. We'd fuel them up during the week and off they went to spy, but the weekends were for football and beer, so no flying then. The pilots were always friendly and would get chatty and let us wide eyed fuel boys in on their little secret airplanes. Now I'm a bit older, a bit more grizzled and cynical. My work allows me a small window into that world and you'd be surpised of all the law enforcement equipent in our skies. Local small police and sheriff departments run Cessnas with some amazing equipment onboard in addition to the helicopters, major cities like L.A. have huge fleets and have no issue with hovering right up to your window and destroy your night with that billion watt lamp(happened to me more than once). Federal level has Airvans, tricked out Blackhawks, Bell 412s, you name it.
Lucky8888
9th Apr 2016, 02:40
You are using the public air space, society grants you access to the skies so your movements and information is open to the public.
Not unless you've blocked your tail number.
peekay4
9th Apr 2016, 06:29
Not unless you've blocked your tail number.
With 1090 MHz ADS-B you cannot block your tail number. So in practice any blocking would be done voluntarily by sites like FR24 if requested by the aircraft owner.
However, anyone with a $30 ADS-B receiver can always decode the raw ADS-B stream, get the ICAO addresses, then perform tail number mapping.
With 978 MHz ADS-B (UAT) there is an anonymity function for VFR aircraft but that won't prevent enthusiasts / journalists / bad guys from noticing flight patterns such as the ones described here.
Mascot PPL
9th Apr 2016, 17:29
Basil, I've never been in the military or sigint, just read a few popular WWII books/watched documentaries. IMHO I wouldn't base any security models around hoping that the bad guys haven't read the same books/watched the same programs on youtube.
Niner Lima Charlie
9th Apr 2016, 19:46
I don't think turning off transponders in a crowded airspace would be feasible.
Every year at the Oshkosh AirVenture fly-in the NOTAM requires all transponders be off or standby within 30 miles due to over saturation of the system.
Every year at the Oshkosh AirVenture fly-in the NOTAM requires all transponders be off or standby within 30 miles due to over saturation of the system. That wouldn't turn off ADS-B, though, would it? It might, since ADS-B is supposed to repeat the squawk (I really don't know)
Lucky8888
10th Apr 2016, 02:08
With 1090 MHz ADS-B you cannot block your tail number. So in practice any blocking would be done voluntarily by sites like FR24 if requested by the aircraft owner.
However, anyone with a $30 ADS-B receiver can always decode the raw ADS-B stream, get the ICAO addresses, then perform tail number mapping.
With 978 MHz ADS-B (UAT) there is an anonymity function for VFR aircraft but that won't prevent enthusiasts / journalists / bad guys from noticing flight patterns such as the ones described here.
We use rotating call signs in our transponders. Problem solved (for now).