BEA Trident London - Moscow 1971

[flash8]

I notice from the BOAC 1971 timetable that there was a Trident Service (BE 670) operated by BEA from Heathrow T1 to Moscow (I assume Sheremetyevo-2) 3X weekly (Otherwise BOAC 707).

BOAC 1971 Timetable London-Moscow Section (http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ba2/ba71/ba71-24.jpg)

Was this a Trident 3B, and was it operating at the limits of its range?

Just curious that a Trident operated this route!

Thanks.

[DaveReidUK]

Was this a Trident 3B, and was it operating at the limits of its range?

Just curious that a Trident operated this route!

More likely a T2E - they operated London-Moscow from 1968 onwards.

[Cremeegg]

Certainly Trident 2E - checking my fathers log books - always a 2 from in his case from Feb 1970 through to Oct 1974. Flight time around 3:20 outbound and 3:40 return - there and back in a day as the logistics of crew hotels etc were horrendous. I recall that the routing was tightly prescribed to ensure they were kept away from certain installations. Certainly one of the longer flights but the Tridents 2's used to do Tel Aviv non stop with an outbound leg of around 4:30 and return legs up to 5:05. Interestingly when he switched to TriStars the Tel Aviv flights were always 15 - 20 minutes longer as not much could keep up with the Trident certainly before they were restricted to M0.8 in Oct 1973.

[Wookey]

Tel Aviv scheduled as non stop in T2 but remember a couple of tech stops in Geneva inbound due adverse winds!

[Doors to Automatic]

I always laugh about the T3 - designed to be longer with a greater capacity until someone realised it couldn't get off the ground! So they put in a fourth mini-engine with an on/off switch (!). It basiclly has two settings; full power for take-off and "off"! Talk about Heath Robinson!!

[flash8]

Tridents 2's used to do Tel Aviv non stop with an outbound leg of around 4:30 and return legs up to 5:05.

Now that is a surprise... always thought the Tridents were short(ish)-range. Many thanks for the very interesting input.

[Private jet]

Didn't BEA get as "far" as Cairo too?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I always laugh about the T3 - designed to be longer with a greater capacity until someone realised it couldn't get off the ground! So they put in a fourth mini-engine with an on/off switch (!). It basiclly has two settings; full power for take-off and "off"! Talk about Heath Robinson!!

It was worse than that; quite a sad saga that explains quite a lot about why we Brits weren't very good at selling aeroplanes outside UK.

In the beginning (of this saga) Hawker Siddeley had on the drawing board the HS121. It was about T3 sized, and planned to use three RR Medway engines. It might have been a viable competitor to the later B727, taking the market that went to that aeroplane.

But BEA said "it's far too big. Make it titchy and we'll buy some". So they did, the ludicrously undersized T1. Later they upgraded that to the T2 at BEA's request, about the limit for Speys (the Medway was never produced once the HS 121 was ditched).

Eventually BEA woke up to the size of aeroplane they should have bought in the first in the first place, and asked HS to make the T2 bigger yet.

So they stretched the T2 and added the RB162 boost engine, a compact turbojet that had been developed as one of many lift engines for vertical lift in the days before the brilliant Harrier defined that technology.

So the T3 was an abomination. Four engines (so not a TRIdent anymore?), five if you include the APU.

Now if BEA had simply ordered the original HS121 in the first place.... Or if HS had stuck to their guns and marketed their 121 internationally despite BEA.....

[Cremeegg]

[QUOTE][Didn't BEA get as "far" as Cairo too?/QUOTE]

Not on Tridents at least between 1966 and 1974 from my fathers records.

His only Cairo flights were whilst training Cyprus Airways crews on their Viscount 800's which were at least initially loaned from BEA, painted in a composite livery and had at least some local cabin crew. G-AOYK being used for the proving flights to and from Nicosia in around 1:45 in October 1965.

Maybe others might know if any of the BEA Comet 4's ever went to Cairo.

[Planemike]

So the T3 was an abomination. Four engines (so not a TRIdent anymore?), five if you include the APU. ....


Tridents only ever had three engines............

[flash8]

Maybe others might know if any of the BEA Comet 4's ever went to Cairo.

From the BOAC timetable 1971 again:

Cairo Page 1971 BOAC Timetable (http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ba2/ba71/ba71-48.jpg)

Seems to be a VC-10 at least in the later BOAC days, like Moscow I am sure they would include BEA flights in the timetable for any BOAC routes.

[DaveReidUK]

I always laugh about the T3 - designed to be longer with a greater capacity until someone realised it couldn't get off the ground!

Great story, but the realisation came as soon as the T2E had flown that the Spey 512 didn't have any growth potential that would allow 3 of them to power a stretch.

[WHBM]

Tridents, and indeed Comets before them, went to all the eastern Med points, most commonly through Nicosia in Cyprus, also served nonstop by both types (Tel Aviv is actually visible on the horizon when you are at altitude over Cyprus). BEA had a longstanding codeshare agreement with Cyprus Airways, who didn't have their own aircraft in the 1960s, on this. The Comets got to Beirut, Cairo, and for a while further, to Damascus, Kuwait, Bahrain and Doha, which are the farthest destinations served by BEA aircraft and crews. I think this 1961 timetable has BEA Comets to all the points mentioned.


http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/be61/be61-17.jpg

and no, BOAC, despite showing many other partners, only sparingly included any such flights in their timetables - and in return BEA never showed BOAC ones in theirs.

Separately to this, BEA in the 1960s provided two Viscount 800s to Cyprus Airways, which did their local regional flights. I believe the BEA square logo in the cheatline (but not the big red one on the fin) was replaced by a CY logo for the duration, which for each of the two aircraft typically lasted for about 3 months before coming back to Heathrow for a check and being replaced.

Once the Comets had gone a Trident was all BEA had for Moscow, loads could be notably thin at times and there are stories of them being down to single figures in winter. Aeroflot ran Tupolev 104s on the route, changing over to Ilyushin 62s around 1970. It was almost unknown for Soviet nationals to be on the BEA flight, despite each only operating on a few days a week. The BOAC 707 Moscow flights were a separate operation through to Tokyo, which started in 1971, the "Russiaway to Japan" route, for which they had to buy two new and specially equipped 707s actually after they started taking delivery of 747s - which were not permitted on the Siberia route for many years afterwards.

[chevvron]

I read an interesting novel in about 1971 involving Tridents going to Moscow.
The story went the USSR managed to secrete an imitation nuclear device in the Houses of Parliament and challenged the British government to see if they could do something similar.
A plot was devised whereby the Moscow bound Trident would take off from Heathrow and would be stealthily joined by a Buccaneer carrying an imitation nuclear weapon. They would fly in close formation so as to present only one blip on radar, the Trident would somehow break off from the Buccaneer and land elsewhere (Copenhagen I think) and the Bucc would carry on on the flight planned route to deliver its payload in Red Square.
I don't remember the name of the book or who wrote it I'm afraid and some of the detail may be wrong, but in those days it was an intriguing tale!

[goofer]

I remember flying Tel-Aviv to Heathrow in 1974 in a T2. As I recall it was a full load on a sweltering hot day...and from a backwards-facing seat it felt like I was watching those L/E droops struggling over the Med for ages before we got cleaned up and gained a bit of altitude. Papa India was still a recent memory so my interest in such details might be forgiven.

Incidentally, as a member of the Trident nostalgia club, I very much enjoy Blind Pew's contributions on this and related subjects. More please!

Goofer

[DaveReidUK]

I remember flying Tel-Aviv to Heathrow in 1974 in a T2.

On a memorable trip to Israel with a BEA mate on an ID90 in about 72-73, when the T2 stopped at the terminal there was a PA announcement instructing everyone to remain seated. A couple of scowling characters with Uzis came on board, walked up and down the aisle scrutinizing everyone before stopping at our seat and gesturing for us to follow them down the steps, where we were given the third-degree (thankfully no rubber gloves were involved) before they politely wished us a pleasant stay in Israel.

As I recall it was a full load on a sweltering hot day...and from a backwards-facing seat it felt like I was watching those L/E droops struggling over the Med for ages before we got cleaned up and gained a bit of altitude.Slats on the T2; only the T1C had droop leading-edges.

[LAS1997]

Definitely Trident 2E's flew to Moscow and also as far as Tel Aviv. The T3 lacked the range; I believe Athens was the furthest a T3 flew. The T3 would venture into Libya via Malta as well as Tunis, Casablanca. I am the proud owner of a T3 (G-AWZI), all be it just the nose section (restored in her BEA colours and on display at the FAST Museum, Farnborough airport); over the years I have built up a log of some of her flights during her career with BEA/BA 1971-1985. The information taken from visiting Trident pilots and their log books. It does make a fascinating reading.

[blind pew]

I first flew Moscow on the T2 in 1972. There was what you might call a non cooperation pact between the corporations in the BEA management created an open hostile atmosphere towards BOAC; probably they rightly believed that the government would get BOAC to sort us out. That's the reason behind the timetables. (BEA wouldn't give concessionary flights to BOAC).
This was a time when the BEA guys were flying through thunderstorms in the Berlin corridors because of the risk of being shot down. We used to look out for Russian fighters but I never heard of one being seen - the closest I ever came to anything exciting was seeing a ground to ground missile tracking low level across Germany at night.
We carried Helsinki alternate fuel and there were occasions of tech stopping but probably because of take off weight restrictions. Interestingly BEA could operate into airfields that were closed to Swissair because of runway contamination - even more puzzling because the Munich disaster happened due to contamination and BEA had ignored two accidents.
One would have thought that a carrier who operated most winter days onto ice or slush covered runways would know better ;-)

The approach was different because the charts showed right angled tight turns and you basically made your own intercepts...sometimes going straight through the centre line and then turning back to intercept the ILS.

Fuel;
It wasn't until recently that I understood the fuel calculation policy in BEA...this has relevance to the tech stopping. Often the fuel was calculated at MTOW whatever the TOW and included contingency fuel. The fuel score was calculated on fuel burnt and didn't take into consideration of lower consumption at lighter weight - so was unduly pessimistic.
There was some other regulation that we had to arrive at destination with alternate fuel and 30mins holding; although a couple of management pilots would ignore this - the mentality carried on and nearly lead to the loss of a droop snoop and a 747.

Flying out of Nicosia I tech stopped in Munich or Frankfurt whilst Cyprus airways T2s steamed past us at high speed and flew direct.
Cyprus Airways was basically a BEA operation (AerLingus was also partly owned by BEA) except they had polished wings whilst we had the pealing red ones - this was banded around by our training department as to why they could do LHR in one hit.
In reality I think they understood the fuel policy better and minimum drag/ specific fuel consumption.
One has to understand that aviation knowledge still isn't cut and dried. A former colleague told me that when he went onto Concorde in the 80s they didn't understand how to operate her properly, that minimum drag was around 400 knots and they had been flying her around too slowly with engine failures.
I can understand there is more than a grain of truth in that as I thought I was going to loose the roof from my thatched cottage near Newbury one stormy night after an engine went into reverse upon rotation out of LHR. - The crew managed to nurse her to 3,000 ft over the Bristol Channel.

Similarly I made a contribution to gliding safety 15 years ago as winching wasn't being taught properly and only a month ago I questioned the control design on my latest paraglider (after a few hours of flying close to mountains and checking the performance).There are just so many variables in aviation.

So on the Nicosia and Tel Aviv some of the captains would get us wallowing along at M.8 instead of M.86 which gave a distinct lower nose attitude and hence, along with Ram recovery factor, a better SFC.

Tel Aviv.
Last week a colleague posted two horrific incidents on Tridents; the latter lead to an immediate visit to management and a conversion course onto the Transavia 737.
Very few pilots take into consideration Temp inversions. I nearly crashed into the Schwarzwald flying a MD80 because of the performance loss and windshear.

From Tel Aviv we had to cross the coast above 1,000 ft because of the military protecting the coast line. In summer it was impossible.
My colleague had got airborne (just) and at 200 ft they hit a strong inversion (and probably a tail wind).
The aircraft stopped climbing and faced with the looming Hilton and Sheraton hotels they fire walled the throttles - which didn't make an awful lot of difference on the Spey because of the fuel control unit except they over temperatured them and had to be changed.
They flew between the hotels and managed to eventually accelerate over the sea.

What had been demonstrated at Madrid a few years before after a T3 diversion following an engine failure out of Malaga was to lower the nose - clean up and accelerate to 230 - 260 knots and the Trident will climb and handle quite nicely.
(Madrid ATC lined up an Iberia aircraft on short finals - typical crap from some of the highest paid controllers).

I don't know the exact min drag speed as no one IIRC ever talked about it and climb performance is dependent on ram recovery factor as well but in descent the bird seemed to fly forever around 250knots.

On a political note I was never worried about Moscow as one forgets that without the Russians the Germans would have won the war.
From the 60s the corporations recruited civil pilots as "military" along with women, gays and Johnny Foreigner don't make good crew members. I was one of the Hamble "mafia" as a Sleazy Jet pilot called us.

It wasn't until I flew with ex post war RAF and Luftwaffe pilots that I realised that this was horse s@@t; Importantly they also told me that whilst they trained to fight the Russians the security briefing was that WW3 would be between Europe and USA.
Whilst America had the boom times in the 50s we still had rationing until 1953 (have my book of stamps still).
My father was a translator for de Gaulle ...he told me that Churchill and de Gaulle betrayed the resistance to the Nazis so that France would remain fascist (the files are in the national archives at Kew but restricted for 100years).
Whilst politically naive what the Troika gets up to along with Snowden's release on Clinton/Sarkosy/Libya and the latest Panama files probably shows that Russia was never a real threat and just a bogey man just as all Muslims apparently are.
Happy days.

[RedhillPhil]

I read an interesting novel in about 1971 involving Tridents going to Moscow.
The story went the USSR managed to secrete an imitation nuclear device in the Houses of Parliament and challenged the British government to see if they could do something similar.
A plot was devised whereby the Moscow bound Trident would take off from Heathrow and would be stealthily joined by a Buccaneer carrying an imitation nuclear weapon. They would fly in close formation so as to present only one blip on radar, the Trident would somehow break off from the Buccaneer and land elsewhere (Copenhagen I think) and the Bucc would carry on on the flight planned route to deliver its payload in Red Square.
I don't remember the name of the book or who wrote it I'm afraid and some of the detail may be wrong, but in those days it was an intriguing tale!

This sort of sounds like "Flight of the Bat". In that story the Soviets dropped a V-2 type missile sans warhead on to somewhere in London - it may have been Hyde Park - and the U.K government then decided to do the same to let the Soviets know that we could do something similar.
The Bat was an obviously renamed TSR2. It (the Bat) took off for Moscow, the noise of the night take off being disguised by a Lightning lifting off with it and then, after an AAR from a Valiant it dropped it's inert payload into Red Square. I believe the book came out about 1965.
It wasn't a very good book, I've no idea who the author was.

[Jhieminga]

A quick Google shows this as an option:
http://pictures.abebooks.com/BOOKSFROMTHECRYPT/md/md5578754509.jpg

[WHBM]

The T3 lacked the range; I believe Athens was the furthest a T3 flew.Trident 3 G-AWZT was on Heathrow to Istanbul when it was in the midair over Yugoslavia in 1976.


it dropped it's inert payload into Red SquarePretty unbelievable ... except by Mathias Rust !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust

[LAS1997]

WHBM - you are quite correct; but I think after the wing cracks were detected (1977/78) on the T3's and strengthening plating had to be installed their range was reduced due to the extra weight / fuel burn?

[blind pew]

Ahh the good old uncle Charlie's landing technique - when asked about cross wind landings and which one he recommended allegedly said "fly it onto the runway - the undercarriage is strong enough"... Didn't mention the wing spar on the T3 though ;-)

[WHBM]

In all truth the larger capacity Trident 3s were most suited for the densest but quite short routes from Heathrow, to Paris (when not Tristar operated), Amsterdam, and the UK Shuttle trunks. These didn't need a lot of fuel and didn't get a lot of freight, so were quite lightweight. There were sufficient 2Es for the longer runs.

The shortfall in 3B capacity while the wing mods were being done led to BOA- um, er, BA Long Haul Division loaning a couple of spare VC-10s to BE - um, er, BA European Division, to cover things, to an extent that they appear formally scheduled in a 1979 timetable I have, to Amsterdam, Lisbon, etc.

Blind pew, if you were flying the Shuttle routes at the end of their Trident operation in the early 1980s, I quite likely was pax behind you. Did you make that stunning departure I had from Manchester for Heathrow one afternoon when I was seated in the final rearward-facing seat row, looking at my new, prospective, serious client in the first forward-facing row opposite, who were it not for my seatbelt would have got me slam in his face when we rotated on liftoff. "Gripper" my a**e !

[wrecker]

My log book shows I operated GAVFM to Moscow on 14/5/69 flight time 3.20 and 3.45 return
Again on 22/9/69 GAVFH 3.20 outbound but on the return diverted into Copenhagen Kastrup with an engine problem
Operations to moscow were always interesting as diversion airfields ( available to western airlines) were at a premium and fuel to divert to Helsinki was tight.

[pax britanica]

As a passenger-on dads subload tickets i loved Tridents and thought them very comfortable :went all over Europe on them. Longest trip was T2 to Cyprus , pitching up a ta BA office in Kyrenia i think we asked about loads for the following night a Monday only to be told -we might get you away on Thursday because of a medical conference taking all the seats. Off to Nicosia-as it was then- that night to await the transiting BOAC VC10 in the hope of a seat-no chance couple of other flights that day another BOAC and the regular T2 and we ares till stuck altho some sub load pax get away on these. But patience tells and alte afternoon full Cyprus Airways flight has 4 pax no shows. , There you go lads but you will have to run -and run we did , no security in those days and made it home.
Also the interchange of aircraft due to various ATC strikes etc , went to faro on honeymoon an clapped out Airtours 707 436 , deafening at the back. A week later and the return is a shuttle configured T3 which was full but managed Faro London Ok.

i never knew what a poor performer close to the ground it was until going to Rome with a friend who was a BOAC 707 FO who really didn't like the idea of sitting backwards and who regaled us , no doubt BOAC bias added, about how tricky the Trident was near the ground.

So I ahd alot of fun and adventures with tridents and think of them fondly and enjoyed greatly looking round the nose section at FNB

Lovely thread and very nice of the guys who flew wha was for its time quite an innovative machine with there experiences of the days before the magenta line
PB

[Power Jets]

This thread stirred happy memories of a trip to Shanghai and on to Beijing in 1982.

As we are boarding an American tourist asks my boss what kind of jet this is. Boss replied, beaming with pride, that "actually it's a British jet, a Hawker Siddeley Trident." Tourists wife freaks.... "Oh my God, I used to own a Triumph Stag!"

On board one of the passengers having trouble getting the seat belt threaded through the buckle because the strap was severely frayed. No problem, out comes an impressive chef's knife and after chopping off 3" from the strap all is well.

Landing in Beijing was interesting.... cruising altitude maintained until over the airport followed by what felt to all was a spiral dive for the runway and some serious braking to finish up with a very high speed turn-off at the far end.... someone suggested the pilots were ex-military, but they seemed current enough to me.

I also recall an RR engineer on that flight saying that the Spey test stand was out of service... apparently the concrete base was not well secured to the underlying mud with alarming results at high thrust.

Times change, all very spiffy now.

PJ

[Cremeegg]

Just a little more information having come across an old BEA timetable for Spring 1970.

Moscow flights to Sheremetievo Airport

Flight BE910 Mo, We, Fr departs 1050 arrives 1615 – non stop with the return Flight BE911 after a 65 minute turnaround departs 1720 arrives back at LHR at 1855.

The timetable also gives the Aeroflot reciprocal flight on Tu Th Sa by Il62.

First Class return fare £102; Economy return fare £77.25p; excess baggage at £1.05 per kilogramme.

Nicosia flights

Flight BE296 on Sats only departs 2230 arrives 0330 – non stop with the return Flight BE297 after a 75 minute turnaround departs 0445 arrives back at LHR at 0820.

Flight BE298 on Sats only departs 1545 arrives 2045 – non-stop with return Flight BE299 after a nightstop departing at 1100 arriving back at LHR at 1435.

All other Trident flights are via Rome or Athens and with the last leg via a Cyprus Airways flight sometimes code shared but all listed as being on Tridents.

First Class return fare £124; Economy return fare £82.70p; excess baggage at £1.24 per kilogramme.


Tel Aviv flights

Flight BE221 Sun only departs 1050 arrives 1615 – non stop with the return Flight BE222 after a 50 minute turnaround departs 1705 arrives back at LHR at 2055.

All other flights are via Rome or Rome and Athens.

First Class return fare £140.25; Economy return fare £94.70p; excess baggage at £1.41 per kilogramme.


Timetable seating plans show 16 forward facing First Class Seats; 36 rearward facing Tourist seats and 40 forward facing Tourist seats.

[Alan Baker]

It was worse than that; quite a sad saga that explains quite a lot about why we Brits weren't very good at selling aeroplanes outside UK.

In the beginning (of this saga) Hawker Siddeley had on the drawing board the HS121. It was about T3 sized, and planned to use three RR Medway engines. It might have been a viable competitor to the later B727, taking the market that went to that aeroplane.

But BEA said "it's far too big. Make it titchy and we'll buy some". So they did, the ludicrously undersized T1. Later they upgraded that to the T2 at BEA's request, about the limit for Speys (the Medway was never produced once the HS 121 was ditched).

Eventually BEA woke up to the size of aeroplane they should have bought in the first in the first place, and asked HS to make the T2 bigger yet.

So they stretched the T2 and added the RB162 boost engine, a compact turbojet that had been developed as one of many lift engines for vertical lift in the days before the brilliant Harrier defined that technology.

So the T3 was an abomination. Four engines (so not a TRIdent anymore?), five if you include the APU.

Now if BEA had simply ordered the original HS121 in the first place.... Or if HS had stuck to their guns and marketed their 121 internationally despite BEA.....
It was even worse than being worse than that! BEA, around 1965/6, actually had the cheek to try to get permission to buy 727s as the Trident was "too small". Not surprisingly the Government refused and told them to buy Hatfield's less than satisfactory stretch (and One-Eleven 500s rather than the 737s they wanted).

[crewmeal]

Around 1972/3 a T2E G-AVYE was based at BHX flying mainly to ORY. What was the difference between that and a T2?

[DaveReidUK]

Around 1972/3 a T2E G-AVYE was based at BHX flying mainly to ORY. What was the difference between that and a T2?

All BEA/BA's Trident 2s (which were the only ones of that mark built) were designated Trident 2E.

But G-AVYE was a Trident 1E, which was a souped-up version of the 1C (featuring the infamous 7-abreast configuration).

[ATNotts]

But G-AVYE was a Trident 1E, which was a souped-up version of the 1C (featuring the infamous 7-abreast configuration).

But not 7-abreast with BEA at BHX - thank heavens!

[wrecker]

During A re-engine of Trident 1C during the mid 60s there was a period when it was possible to have 3 different models of Spey on the same airframe. 505/10, 505/5E and 505/5F all with different operating limits. It made for interesting T/O calculations

[flash8]

But G-AVYE was a Trident 1E, which was a souped-up version of the 1C (featuring the infamous 7-abreast configuration).

http://www.shockcone.co.uk/hs121/trident/images/1ecabin.jpg

yikes!

[WHBM]

The 7-across Trident 1E was an order for five aircraft for Channel Airways, a real bottom-feeder carrier of the time where Sqn Ldr Jack Jones, who ran it, packed as many seats as he could into their fleet (quite small but very varied).

Their Tridents were an extraordinarily complex type for an airline who had previously had nothing bigger than Viscounts or DC4s, and was compounded by their main base at Southend not even having a runway long enough to operate them from (I once used up most of it landing a Cessna 152 there, but that's a different story :eek: ), so their Tridents had to operate from Stansted. However they were also short of cash, as ever apparently, so three of the five were never delivered and just sat at hatfield, one was eventually sold by Hawker Siddeley to Ceylon and two more to BKS, Channel only taking delivery of two aircraft with this seating arrangement. They still had no real good Mediterranean charter contracts for them, one aircraft was finally placed with a West Berlin travel company operating from Tegel, while the other was grounded AOG at Stansted being steadily robbed for spares to keep the first going, Channel having run out of any credit with Hawker Siddeley by this time (they simultaneously did the same with BAC for some new One-Elevens they ordered). When Channel went under early in 1972 the Tridents joined BKS, later renamed Northeast, which was owned by BA and that's how they eventually all got onto the BA fleet. The 7-across seating had long gone. I bet the maintenance records raised some eyebrows at Heathrow.

You will notice the squashed seating is only in the forward half of the cabin, it was 6-across at the rear, as I understand HS could only make the evacuation limits work for this number. The smaller seats were (in theory) assigned to families with small children, but I bet that never worked out on the day.

[chevvron]

http://www.shockcone.co.uk/hs121/trident/images/1ecabin.jpg

yikes!
Hmm. Had a girlfriend once (yes me!) who did a stint as a stewardess with 'Channel Scareways' (as she called it) until they went bust.
I think I recognise the stewardess in that photo!

[blind pew]

WHBM
Never flew the three as for a long time it was deemed too difficult to fly three marks but when more competent management arrived all four types were flown by the same crew.
I had migrated to the VC10 by then...one of the stories when the VC10 was flying on European routes whilst the T3s where being repaired was of a crew delaying a Frankfurt whilst catering fetched some bone china as they weren't prepared to accept the s@@t brown, handleless Bakelite mugs that BEA crews had to endure.
18 months later I was flying four different types of DC 9 without any problems..different engines..wing/fuselage incidence...loading..fuel systems and one was a freighter.
Shows what Johnny Foreigner can do ;-)

[scotbill]

For those of you who have not learned to take Blind Pew's tales of derring do with a pinch of salt I have an alternative opinion on why the Tri 3b was introduced to BEA as a separate flight.

By not requiring the soon-to-be-retiring senior men to becom multi-qualified it gave management the opportunity to promote to the top fleet relatively junior captains from Vanguards who were the ones with lots of jet experience as RAF pilots and Comet co-pilots. They were also the ones who believed in training rather than checking.

[blind pew]

Bill these RAF pilots ex Vanguards and Comets who were such wonderful trainers...would they be the same ones whose genesis was a peacetime airforce that lost 200+ airframes in one year in the 60s..had some fleet loses (%) greater than the Starfighter and trained those that stalled a Comet,Vanguard and a Trident 1 with 100% loss of life?

Please answer a question for me - what was the point of knowing how many static wicks the Trident possessed or does your definition of training differ from mine?

[Flap40]

what was the point of knowing how many static wicks the Trident possessed

If you don't know how many are supposed to be on the airframe, how will you know if any are missing?

[blind pew]

Minimum was apparently important - one on each extremity....rest is just dressing.

Considering we were once dispatched from base with one of the only two artificial horizons that I could see U/S you would proberly understand the uselessness of such a stupid question in our "real" world.

[scotbill]

Bill these RAF pilots ex Vanguards and Comets who were such wonderful trainers...would they be the same ones whose genesis was a peacetime airforce that lost 200+ airframes in one year in the 60s..had some fleet loses (%) greater than the Starfighter and trained those that stalled a Comet,Vanguard and a Trident 1 with 100% loss of life?

Please answer a question for me - what was the point of knowing how many static wicks the Trident possessed or does your definition of training differ from mine? Blind Pew does strain to the limit my resolution not to indulge in ad hominem.

However - my generation came onto the T3 around 1973 after about 15 years in the airline - most of that in the right hand seat.
So we too suffered under those that generated his massive chip.

Fortunately we were able to get over it - and believe it made us better trainers.

And - no - I never found the number of static wicks gave me any sleepless nights so his question, as usual, leaves me mystified.

.

[blind pew]

Bill I see that you ignore the facts of the appalling accident rate in BEA during the 60s and 70s until BOAC effectively took over the training and revert to judgement (chip!) and talking down by quoting Latin.
After the fiasco of the Staines inquiry I borrowed six months salary to obtain an instructors license as well as joining the BALPA technical committee because I thought I could make a difference to the dinosaurs.
I didn't have anything to get over as I didn't condone the pack of lies told to the inquiry.

As one of our colleagues on Icarus wrote "when did an inquiry ever publish the truth" or words to that effect. Purely about protecting the establishment.

I left to what in effect was the BOAC operation on the VC 10 and when that was supposedly being retired I quit rather than rejoin the Trident fleet and all of the petty mindedness.

My only regret was not going up to the highland and island division where the operation needed captains who could fly and didn't rely on the copilots positioning the aircraft so that they could land.

As you know BEA management and training took all of the cream and easy trips because they needed to and the great tradition continues today. Pity they didn't recruit trainers on ability - it might have saved 7 of the 8 aircraft loses in my six years flying for the Hounslow flying club.

[scotbill]

That is just so much horlicks that I can't be bothered to debate it.

I'm sure the Highlands and Islands division was profoundly grateful to be spared your patronage.

[Kritou]

That is just so much horlicks that I can't be bothered to debate it.

I'm sure the Highlands and Islands division was profoundly grateful to be spared your patronage.

On behalf of so many others, amen

[Discorde]

BEA News 05/03/71 (http://steemrok.com/bea%20news003)

[WHBM]

BEA News 05/03/71 (http://steemrok.com/bea%20news003)
Being one of the regulars on the BA St Petersburg daily flight, that Kruschev-era terminal building in the background was still in use by BA and other international flights until about 3 years ago, when a new building opened across the north runway. If the three airbridges were all in use then the BA A320 was parked in exactly the same spot on the remote stands.

[barry lloyd]

Yes, I'm not too sure about 'Leningrad's busy airport.' The interior of that building used to remind me of an abandoned market hall or railway station, such was it's size, though I remember the KGB staff were a little more friendly than those in Moscow.

[WHBM]

Just two years after that Trident visit the new domestic "Terminal 1" opened between the runways at Leningrad, separating domestic and international operations, the former had long predominated, and the older building dropped back to the limited number of international flights until replaced in the last few years. But at the time I'm sure that ramp was probably pretty busy. Wow, look at all those Tu104s in the background.

For me, it always reminded me of a Soviet high school of the era. Actually I found it quite pleasant, although in recent years it could get overwhelmed by the likes of the Transaero 747 charter flights to Turkish resorts. The concessions for duty-free and restaurants were grossly overpriced, but these have been transferred lock, stock and barrel to the new terminal with the same branding and the same characteristics.

Initial trip through there I, too, anticipated stereotypical KGB (actually FSB by then) agent staff, so I was more than a little surprised to find most of them were under-25 women, chit-chatting away to one another as we were stamped through, with decidedly western make-up around their classic St Petersburg big blue eyes, their military-style uniforms and Russian oversized uniform flat hats looking quite out of place. Out in baggage reclaim, a Russian middle-aged woman had her suitcase opened on the customs inspection counter, and was giving a poor young customs chap what for, at full volume. He is cowering back from the counter somewhat, doesn't appear to know how to handle this invective from a lady who probably resembles his mama, and is decidedly getting the worse of the exchange.

First welcome to Russia :)

[LynxDriver]

Tridents only ever had three engines............
Not so. The 3B had three Rolls Royce Spey engines plus a supplementary RR RB162 boost engine mounted in the tail. That in my opinion makes four engines.

[philbky]

The RB162 in the Trident 3B was put in place to boost take off performance and in the type's early time in service it was regularly used making the type probably the loudest civil type in the world.

The engine was only used for the initial climb and was shut down after a maximum of five minutes. As time went by the engine was used infrequently, hot/high/heavy departures were the times the boost was used but as a number of the type in BA service were dedicated to internal shuttle flights, the engines were decommissioned (were they actually removed?) and the decommissioning was reportedly completed across the fleet when the 757 took over the longer European routes.

[WHBM]

the engines were decommissioned (were they actually removed?)
Removing an engine, even one mounted on the centreline, would surely have given a weight and balance, not to mention certification, issue.

[pax britanica]

The Trident 3 was distinctively noisy with the boost engine generating a higher pitch more military sound on top of the already noisy Speys but I don't think it could touch the VC10 for sheer noise.

I also understood that as well as no controllable thrust there wasn't alot of engine monitoring going on for the booster having once heard a Trident pilot ask the company aircraft next to him at the holding point if he could see if the inlet doors were open for the forth engine.

As for the corporation rivalry at the time growing up in Stanwell it virtually decided who your childhood friends were if parents worked for 'the other lot' . Not many neutrals as back then Stanwell was virtually a company town for BEA BOAC , but I dont think it went as far as denying subload trips. In the early 70s I did a lot of these on my fathers BEA concessions often accompanied by a friend who was a BOAC FO and at times by others from the dark blue side.

[philbky]

Removing an engine, even one mounted on the centreline, would surely have given a weight and balance, not to mention certification, issue.
All very true but not insurmountable. The answer seems lost, the question is would the cost be recoupable in decreased redundant weight therefore reduced fuel burn, reduction in maintenance and scrap value? Perhaps on the airframes initially dedicated to the shuttles but on later engine decommissioning?

[DaveReidUK]

The answer seems lost, the question is would the cost be recoupable in decreased redundant weight

But the point is that it's not redundant weight if its removal puts the C of G outside limits and requires its replacement with a corresponding amount of ballast.

therefore reduced fuel burn, reduction in maintenance and scrap value?The first two would more easily be achieved by leaving the engine installed and just not using it. As for scrap value, the engine was mostly made of plastic, so scrap value would be negligible, almost certainly less than the cost of removing them.

Perhaps on the airframes initially dedicated to the shuttles but on later engine decommissioning?In the days when I used to jumpseat on the EDI shuttle, it was not unknown to see "Lirttle Willie", as the boost engine was affectionately(?) nicknamed, being used on takeoff from LHR. So it was by no means restricted to hot/high/heavy takeoffs.

[philbky]

But the point is that it's not redundant weight if its removal puts the C of G outside limits and requires its replacement with a corresponding amount of ballast.
IF being the important word.

The first two would more easily be achieved by leaving the engine installed and just not using it. As for scrap value, the engine was mostly made of plastic, so scrap value would be negligible, almost certainly less than the cost of removing them.
The compressor blades were the only plastic parts, the compressor case was fibreglass, the rest was metal.

In the days when I used to jumpseat on the EDI shuttle, it was not unknown to see "Lirttle Willie", as the boost engine was affectionately(?) nicknamed, being used on takeoff from LHR. So it was by no means restricted to hot/high/heavy takeoffs.
Dave, I think you are misconstruing my point. I'll try again. The RB162 was generally used for the first five minutes of a flight for take off and initial climb. As time went by it was used far less frequently, mainly for hot, or high, or heavy take offs or any mixture of the three. The decline in use, particularly on shuttle flights led to the decommissioning. When were you making your trips?

The use of particular Trident 3 aircraft dedicated to shuttle work seems to have started around 1978 when Trident 1s were being relegated to back up work. Certainly not all dedicated aircraft had their RB162s decommissioned at one go and there were rotations where non dedicated aircraft provided back ups once the Trident 1 withdrawal programme began.

[DaveReidUK]

The compressor blades were the only plastic parts, the compressor case was fibreglass, the rest was metal.

Point taken, but Mr Coley still wouldn't have paid much for them, and fairing over the hole in the back end would have been horrendously expensive, so I don't think removing the RB162 would ever have been a realistic option.

When were you making your trips?Late 70s/early 80s.

The use of particular Trident 3 aircraft dedicated to shuttle work seems to have started around 1978 when Trident 1s were being relegated to back up work. Certainly not all dedicated aircraft had their RB162s decommissioned at one go and there were rotations where non dedicated aircraft provided back ups once the Trident 1 withdrawal programme began.Certainly by the time I left BA there were a number of T3s (around half-a-dozen, I seem to recall) dedicated to Shuttle. The last one wasn't retired until 1986, several years after I left, so use of the RB162 may well have ceased prior to that.

And it certainly wasn't unusual to see several things placarded "Inop" on the Trident flight deck. :O

[philbky]

I was a regular user of the MAN-LHRshuttle between 1979 and 1986 and through variousconnections had a number of jump seat rides. Thus my knowledge of the decommissioning. You are right about the inop placards! The last timre I remember hearing the fourth engine used was at GLA sometime around 1980 and I have no knowledge of use on the MAN shuttles from around 1979. Towards the end of Trident ops I had the luck to be on the last commercial flights of 2 Trident 3s.

[Alsacienne]

Having been to boarding school under the path of Ringway between 1969 and 1974, might I ask if the Trident 3 was really the noisest ... in comparison with the BAC1-11, which I remember with fond delight, was capable of silencing even the most enthusiastic teacher?

[Geordie_Expat]

Having been to boarding school under the path of Ringway between 1969 and 1974, might I ask if the Trident 3 was really the noisest ... in comparison with the BAC1-11, which I remember with fond delight, was capable of silencing even the most enthusiastic teacher?

Having lived in MQ at RAF Turnhouse with the Edinburgh Airport runway at the bottom of my garden (before new airport opened), I would agree with the above. Seriously noisy, high-pitched scream.

[DaveReidUK]

Even without the booster engine, three Speys vs two was only ever going to have one outcome.

[DaveReidUK]

As a postscript to the Trident 3 booster engine decommissioning debate, I've been re-reading Max Kingsley-Jones's excellent monograph on the Trident.

He recounts a jump seat trip he made to Oslo during the last month of BA Trident operations (December 1985), where the boost engine was used not just on the return leg (where it was essential in the Norwegian winter) but also on takeoff at LHR to confirm its serviceability.

The book contains a number of photos of the RB162 in action (discernable by the open intake doors), including a May 1986 shot of the last of the 5 T3s sold to ACS of Zaire, which was the last ever Trident flight from LHR.


http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/biblio/series/classic_civ/CCA5.jpg

[philbky]

There's some pretty solid evidence then. "He recounts a jump seat trip he made to Oslo during the last month of BA Trident operations (December 1985), where the boost engine was used not just on the return leg (where it was essential in the Norwegian winter) but also on takeoff at LHR to confirm its serviceability" could be taken as confirming the irregular use of the engine. I just wonder if the flight would have been pulled had the RB162 decided not to co-operate.

The aircraft sold to Zaire were 'ZC, 'ZD, 'ZF and 'ZG with 'ZV as a spares back up. None were regular shuttle performers through the 1980s so presumably their RB162s were not decommissioned and they were allocated to European routes.

[DaveReidUK]

There's some pretty solid evidence then. "He recounts a jump seat trip he made to Oslo during the last month of BA Trident operations (December 1985), where the boost engine was used not just on the return leg (where it was essential in the Norwegian winter) but also on takeoff at LHR to confirm its serviceability" could be taken as confirming the irregular use of the engine. I just wonder if the flight would have been pulled had the RB162 decided not to co-operate.

Yes, he quotes the station engineer at OSL as saying that if it had arrived there on that occasion with a u/s boost engine it wouldn't have been able to depart.

I was simply quoting that extract as evidence that the T3 boost engine was being used, as and when required, right up to the end of BA Trident operations, which I think we're now agreed on.

[pax britanica]

I do not know all the airfields the T3 had to have boost engine reasons of short runway alone rather weight hot weather etc for other than EDI before the new runway and Oslo Fornebu any other offers.

If i cd drift the thread a little goijg bck to start about BEA and BOAC doing Moscow in the BALHR T3 lounge there is a poster saying fly BOAC to the Helsinki Olympics, could that be right.

[WHBM]

I do not know all the airfields the T3 had to have boost engine reasons of short runway alone rather weight hot weather etc for other than EDI before the new runway and Oslo Fornebu any other offers.I doubt the T3 operated into Edinburgh before the new runway was built (always open to correction of course). I was in Edinburgh in the 1970s, and the justification for the new runway was very much that the old one could not take BEA Tridents (BUA were already using One-Elevens). Once construction was agreed, however, Trident 1Cs were first infiltrated and then took over from Vanguards, the last of which was withdrawn in Spring 1974, with Edinburgh one of its last routes. Spring 1976 the route was converted to a Shuttle, but at that time the Shuttle fleet was all 100-seat Trident 1C. A year later in Spring 1977 the new runway and terminal was opened, and I think only after that would the T3 have come along there. Certainly all the early 1980s trips I did on the Edinburgh Shuttle were still with a Trident 1C.

If i cd drift the thread a little goijg bck to start about BEA and BOAC doing Moscow in the BALHR T3 lounge there is a poster saying fly BOAC to the Helsinki Olympics, could that be right.
Bit of a challenge as the Olympics there were in 1952. BOAC never served Helsinki, and BEA schedules in 1952 got no nearer than Stockholm, although they doubtless did some special flights. Nor did Aero (Finnair predecessor) come to London as their first Convair 440s were not delivered until the following year. Was the poster aimed more generally, at Americans coming to Europe that summer ? I think this is it

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1952-BOAC-Flights-to-Helsinki-Olympics-A3-Poster-print-/291411463505

[DaveReidUK]

I doubt the T3 operated into Edinburgh before the new runway was built (always open to correction of course).

Indeed it did.

SOP was full reverse coming over the fence, as was the case for other short fields it operated into.

[India Four Two]

Dave,

How did that get approved? I thought that reverse thrust wasn't factored into landing distance calculations.

[Discorde]

SOP was full reverse coming over the fence, as was the case for other short fields it operated into.

IIRC (after 38 years) for short landings reverse idle was selected during the flare, then increased as required after touchdown.

He recounts a jump seat trip he made to Oslo during the last month of BA Trident operations (December 1985), where the boost engine was used not just on the return leg (where it was essential in the Norwegian winter) but also on takeoff at LHR to confirm its serviceability

I recall a winter departure from OSL when the boost was required for contaminated runway perf. The boost started OK but failed on spool up so we taxied back to the gate and offloaded enough pax (more than half of them IIRC) to reduce the RTOW to achieve no-boost perf.

[Tu.114]

Full reverse over the fence...

Did that come with other operational requirements, like a slight increment to Va, increased power on #2 or a different flare technique? Or was the (presumably) firm arrival intended to happen?

[DaveReidUK]

How did that get approved? I thought that reverse thrust wasn't factored into landing distance calculations.

While it's true that you can't take credit for reverse in scheduling performance, use of the technique was clearly considered to be prudent.

IIRC (after 38 years) for short landings reverse idle was selected during the flare, then increased as required after touchdown.

You may well be right about that. It was, as you say, a long time ago. :O

Did that come with other operational requirements, like a slight increment to Va, increased power on #2 or a different flare technique? Or was the (presumably) firm arrival intended to happen?

I don't know what effect, if any, it had on scheduled speeds, but I can vouch for the fact that every T3 landing I experienced on 13 or 31 at EDI was reassuringly firm, to say the least.

[DaveReidUK]

A bit more background on the Trident reverse-in-the-flare technique from an old PPRuNe thread:

The Trident NORMAL landing procedure as noted earlier in this thread, is to close the throttles and select reverse idle (pod engines obviously) IN THE FLARE. This was actioned by the P2 as non-handling pilot, the handling pilot P1 having both hands on the yoke. Optionally one could then select FULL reverse while in the flare, and this was a very effective technique on short or wet runways as the Trident had pretty mediocre brakes. So the crew brief for this technique, in the flare the call is “Power off and full reverse”. The P2 closes the thrust levers and immediately pulls up the reverser levers, the buckets deploy and the pod engines never spool down but increase RPM from the approach value to close to full power for a few moments, then back to idle as the aircraft slows. http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/434496-trident-autothrust-system-autoland-

Maybe my memory isn't so bad after all. :O

[Discorde]

Thanks DRUK! I stand corrected! During my year on the T3 I don't remember ever using the full rev during flare technique.

[Tu.114]

Thank You for the explanation, DaveReid. A most interesting topic. I find the philosophy of having P1 control only the flight controls and P2 handling the power levers remarkable. On the very few FADEC-less types I know, the PNF only set rated power as this involved longer heads-down time inappropriate for the PF (DH8-300 always, F70/100 only when both Autothrottle channels were u/s), but all the other time, the power levers were in the PFs domain.

Did P2 have his hands on the power levers during the entire approach, or was there a transfer of power lever control at some point?

[Discorde]

Did P2 have his hands on the power levers during the entire approach, or was there a transfer of power lever control at some point?

As I recall SOP was auto-throttle for all approaches, with PM's hand on the thrust levers to monitor their movement. The other option (rarely used) was for PF to call for power changes (as LP RPM settings), the adjustments made by PM manually. A strange system, and I can't remember the rationale behind it.

[Tu.114]

Thank You, Discorde. This is a peculiar procedure indeed, calling for rather good understanding between the pilots. There must have been some reaction time between the P1s call for reverse and the response of P2, making the difference between a nice, smooth landing and ... well, something deserving to be called "arrival" rather than "landing".

At a risk of a thread drift, but thinking about it, I remember having heard of a similar SOP on the IL-62 with Interflug (although there not the P2, but the F/E pulled the reverse on the handling pilots request), occasionally raising the question of which one of the two was responsible for the impact that just occurred. Such "shared" operation of the flight controls seems to have been not uncommon a while ago.

[condor17]

Hi guys , at the risk of 30 ½ years away from currency ; a few memories .
Boost was not disconnected on T3bs , they might have gone u/s and not been mended towards the end [ 31/Dec 85 ].
Last trip was 29/11/85 , used boost out of the old short Munich a/p [ was pulled off the fleet early for a 737 course ]. Might have been for fun ‘tho . Helped deliver empty G-AWZZ to Brum fire services Nov/84 . used boost for fun to try a V2 climb to 2400’ , then a 500’ fly by of Wycombe Airpark [ Booker ] .
Had it break on a snowy Glasgow [GLA] dep , with snow at LHR . We needed it to carry a full load and the needed extra fuel for a bad day out ! Had to sit at runway end powering up to burn off extra fuel . Took quite a while , and we only just made it to LHR on minimum reserves , before one runway shut for snow clearing , and the other got blocked by a new 757 careering around .
Old Edinburgh [EDI] runway 13 /31 certainly had T3s in and out , and very often landing with a limiting tailwind …over running into the cabbage field at the end . Aberdeen [ ABZ ]was the same , an ILS only to one end , and with the Haar in , it was needed …. But landing with a max tailwind … T1/2s normally ok , but T3s often in the field .
A version of normal ops was 10,000 LP rpm in the flare , if timed right it cushioned / kissed you on . If not , thump . ABZ , when skipper asked for reverse …he meant emergency reverse [ pull those levers ‘til they came off in your hand , but you had 12,000 LP rpm ] .
Throttle handling was a bit different . In auto flight , the handling pilot operated a/p and a/t .
In manual flight handling pilot flew the a/c and asked non- handling pilot for the power he required , [ in LP rpm ] ‘’ ten – eight [ 10800 ] , eleven [ 11,000 ] , twelve thousnd [12,000] , power off , Reverse idle , REVERSE ‘’ , etc .
It was not until Mr Wu [ T1E G-ASWU ex Cyprus Airways] came back from it sojourn in Nicosia [ ’74 war ] , that the 1 and 2 fleet had a 1E to play with . Complete with GT throttles ; which were cranked backwards 2/3 rds of the way up . Bliss…. handling pilot could now reach the throttles from a comfortable seating / flying position ; so non standardly several skippers allowed us to do our own power settings whilst flying manually …. Easy peasy . But impossible in the BEA ordered 1Cs , 2E s and 3Bs with straight up throttles out of reach ; which is why I guess we did not handle our own power when manually flying !

Rgds condor .

PS, ‘’reassuringly firm’’…… = ‘positive touchdown on a wet runway , to ensure wheel spin up , max braking , avoiding aquaplaning ‘ .

PPS, 17 static wicks on a 737-200 … if 1 missing then performance implications .

PPPS , extremely lucky to have 4 very happy years in Highland Division , lots of PDB ‘ pur dead brilliant ‘[ GLA accent ] guys and gurls in back , front , left or right seats .

[Wander00]

Should have changed the name from "Trident" to "Quadrant"...................hat, coat...........

[Rob Courtney]

Only flew on the T3 twice when for some reason BA where using them on bucket and spade routes for British Airtours. I flew to Alicantie and back (from Manchester).

I couldn't believe how quiet it was inside but so damn noisy outside (I was in row 3 both ways I think).

I also remember covering the last operation out of Manchester on 31 Dec 1985, cant remember the reg but it was a T3 and flew the mid morning shuttle into Man then did a pleasure flight before returning back as the evening shuttle. It was a cold overcast day and we where sitting at the end of 24 waiting for the overshoot at the end of the pleasure flight taking photos for a local rag.

[GAXLN]

It was "Zulu Oscar" operating BA4513 from Manchester which was the last Trident Three landing at Heathrow carrying passengers being a fraction of a second behind a LHR-AMS-LHR charter operated by "Zulu Victor". "Zulu Victor" had operated BA's last scheduled international Trident Three service to/from Copenhagen earlier that day. I was fortunate and had flown to Copenhagen and back then on that last Shuttle flight. Happy Days.

[scotbill]

Reverse in the flare was very useful given Trident high approach speeds. But Edi 31/13 was perfectly usable without it (as were all the other ex-RAF 6000 foot runways) provided it wasn't wet. Gibraltar had the additional frisson of having a particularly damp overrun.

Having flown aeroplanes in multifarious ways (manual throttle/auto throttle/diy throttle/get-the-other-chap-to-do-it) - I've always found it slightly amusing that some think their virility/feminity challenged if they don't handle their own throttles.

Autothrottle in manual flight only works if attitude is accurately controlled (otherwise it hunts). Quite liked the Tri system of asking for power settings as it discouraged over-control of power and meant the engines were being properly monitored - particularly on landing. It was perfectly possible to fly a fixed power approach on Trident (as with other aeroplanes) by playing the drag curve.

Unlike the other marks, the T3 had a tendency to skip on touchdown. Using reverse in the flare not only meant the engines hadn't fully spooled down (as previously pointed out) but also ensured a component of the thrust was ensuring good contact with the runway (no skip). Curiously, landings with full reverse thrust could often be very smooth - although the psychological effect on the nervous passenger can be imagined.

[DaveReidUK]

It was "Zulu Oscar" operating BA4513 from Manchester which was the last Trident Three landing at Heathrow carrying passengers being a fraction of a second behind a LHR-AMS-LHR charter operated by "Zulu Victor". "Zulu Victor" had operated BA's last scheduled international Trident Three service to/from Copenhagen earlier that day. I was fortunate and had flown to Copenhagen and back then on that last Shuttle flight. Happy Days.

Interestingly, both Max Kingsley-Jones's Trident monograph and Keith Gaskells's "History of BA" quote Zulu Uniform as operating that AMS charter, Zulu Victor having gone tech earlier in the day.

[Adverse Jaw]

Quite a lot of tosh in the preceding pages about the de-activation and indeed removal of the T3 boost engine. It was never the case. The boost engine was seldom used in anger during the latter years of BA service, resulting in serviceability issues, usually a failure to start. Aficionados attributed the cause to inadequate fuelling during start due to lack of use.
An unapproved but reliable remedy was to purge the fuel line by removing the boost engine igniter CB and perform a start cycle until a nice cloud of fuel vapour appeared from the jet pipe (usually requiring a helpful observer - or the startled comments of nearby a/c) A blowout cycle was then performed followed usually, by a good start.
As a member of the crew performing the very last BA Trident flight, Zulu Mike, LHR to Wroughton on 28th Feb 1986 to join the Science Museum collection and I can attest that we performed a full power takeoff with boost and that the empty a/c went up like a homesick, if noisy angel.

[DType]

Just in case you didn't all know this, the RB162 was originally designed by RR for use in VTOL civil airliners. The multiple small engines were intended to give adequate redundancy (compared with the single vectored thrust engine in the military Harrier).
I designed and stressed the turbine blades, and still retain the broken bits from the previous design of blade (it had failed on the test bed). Some test bed failures in those days at RR were pretty dramatic.
Of course civil VTOL never happened, so the Trident application was a welcome use of a redundant design.

[rog747]

just reserecting an old thread


just seen a photo dated 4/1968 at Athens with a BEA Trident on the ramp (old BEA red square livery)
cannot make out if its is a new T2E or not but the nose gear doors look like they have 2 open ala T1C

anyone know why a Trident would be at ATH in spring 1968 I thought this was Comet domain ?

the link is here to view photo
Altes aus Afrika - Fotos - Historische Aufnahmen und FRA-Erinnerungen - FRA-Spotterforum (http://fra-spotterforum.de/index.php?page=Thread&postID=6802#post6802)

[rog747]

where is this?

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/EE_img3302443.jpg

[Flightwatch]

where is this?

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/EE_img3302443.jpg

Aberdeen I believe. It was reputed that the Captain was heard to say "now they'll HAVE to wash the f---ing thing" as it rolled to a rest!

[DaveReidUK]

Aberdeen I believe.

That would certainly explain the two BAA vehicles with "Aberdeen" in big letters along the side. :O

T3 aquaplaned on landing, May 22nd 1978.

[chevvron]

An unapproved but reliable remedy was to purge the fuel line by removing the boost engine igniter CB and perform a start cycle until a nice cloud of fuel vapour appeared from the jet pipe (usually requiring a helpful observer - or the startled comments of nearby a/c) A blowout cycle was then performed followed usually, by a good start.

I remember when I was training on GMC at Glasgow, T3s taxying for 24 (now 23) would start the booster as they passed the tower. First you would get clouds of vapour, then a gout of flame as it lit!!

[G-ARZG]

That doesn't mean it WAS at Aberdeen, Dave !

Looking at earlier exchanges on another subject, this could well have
been an inter-governmental plot to fool a gullible populace into thinking it was Aberdeen....

Did it really take place?

[WHBM]

just seen a photo dated 4/1968 at Athens with a BEA Trident on the ramp (old BEA red square livery)
cannot make out if its is a new T2E or not but the nose gear doors look like they have 2 open ala T1C

anyone know why a Trident would be at ATH in spring 1968 I thought this was Comet domain ?

Tridents had taken over the LHR-Rome-Athens-Istanbul-Ankara "stopper" by 1968, along with LHR-Rome-Athens-Beirut. A short range Trident 1C could have managed all those stops.

Here's a 1968 timetable :

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/be/be6806/be686-16.jpg

[Krakatoa]

I was on the crew that was due to operate the Trident return flight to London after a night stop at Aberdeen. The date was 22nd May 1978 ?

[DaveReidUK]

That doesn't mean it WAS at Aberdeen, Dave !

Looking at earlier exchanges on another subject, this could well have
been an inter-governmental plot to fool a gullible populace into thinking it was Aberdeen....

Did it really take place?

Good point. We need a competent truther on the case. :O

If that's not an oxymoron.

[Cazalet33]

T3 aquaplaned on landing, May 22nd 1978.

I saw that one happen.

In those days the passenger terminal gave a pretty full view of the runway. As the Trident landed there was a loud gasp and much muttering of "no way!" etc from the assembled pax. It was obvious to everyone that that by the t/d point there was zero chance of a successful outcome. Well before t/d there were several saying out loud things to the effect of "that's **** ed it!".

I was standing chatting with Tom P, who wryly said "I hope the bugger doesn't ask us (Beacopters) for a transfer".

[Discorde]

IIRC the aircraft landed with a tailwind just outside limits but the crew were exonerated.

[SLF-Flyer]

I am surprised the story of a Trident flying into Moscow and a flying saucer has not come up.

One day at a sailing club, I asked Captain Tony Colin (BA 747 then) if he had ever seen a flying saucer. As that week there had been reports in Bexleyheath were I lived at the time, of people seeing one.

The answer was yes, there was even a cartoon in The Times of him and his Captain and an article about the incident. I did remember reading about it and the cartoon years before, not knowing it was him.

Tony was often my buddy on rescue duty at the sailing club and he would take the boat to the limit. As for me, I would just lay down in the boat and let him get on with being the helm.

If you see this Tony, email via Pprune the family would like to hear from you.
Mike

[rog747]

Tridents had taken over the LHR-Rome-Athens-Istanbul-Ankara "stopper" by 1968, along with LHR-Rome-Athens-Beirut. A short range Trident 1C could have managed all those stops.

Here's a 1968 timetable :

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/be/be6806/be686-16.jpg

thanks for that - it def looks like a 1c at ATH in photo 4/1968

[rog747]

going to Rhodes old airport Maritsa at night was no fun i bet

[blind pew]

going to Rhodes old airport Maritsa at night was no fun i bet

Gib and Heraklion were the dodgiest of places...
With the former the pax would ask whether we would go to Tangier for them to get a ferry across.
The later had a 707? parked in the lagoon ...suffered from rotor in the lee of the mountains.
Flew two approached on a DC9 in severe Turbulence at night...one of the few to get in but with hindsight wasn't very clever.

[WHBM]

thanks for that - it def looks like a 1c at ATH in photo 4/1968
Only one Trident 2 (FC) had been delivered anyway by April 1968; I doubt they had come into mainstream service by then. The rest of the fleet arrived over the next 15 months.

[rog747]

Gib and Heraklion were the dodgiest of places...
With the former the pax would ask whether we would go to Tangier for them to get a ferry across.
The later had a 707? parked in the lagoon ...suffered from rotor in the lee of the mountains.
Flew two approached on a DC9 in severe Turbulence at night...one of the few to get in but with hindsight wasn't very clever.

i think scotbill has some stories of old Rhodes Maritsa LOL

don't know whose 707 at HER overran....?
Beatours had a hard landing there and both them and Monarch had 707/720B undercarriage bogie failures whilst on turnaround

[Discorde]

Gib and Heraklion were the dodgiest of places...
With the former the pax would ask whether we would go to Tangier for them to get a ferry across.

Tridents operated a regular LHR-GIB-TNG-LHR schedule in the 70s.

[blind pew]

Think it was Caledonian at Heraklion..remember there were two wrecks there in the early 70s..
The airtours was a heavy landing which broke the aircraft..it was flown back with one engine hanging off and all four pylons bent. Rather than ask BOAC the skipper ordered the FO to send a telex to BEA airtours..the greek engineer refused to sign the aircraft out so they flew it back to the UK where Boeing declared that it was beyond economical repair.
Most of the Gibs that I operated where there and backs. Captains only and a display of how a Trident could be flown if it was around the rock dodging "smokey joe" ..a Spanish warship anchored off the approach which was rumoured to be keen to open fire on us. Meant a stabilised approach from around 500ft whereas we had been taught 3,000 was the norm.

[Discorde]

Updating an image from a defunct link:


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1575/trident_leningrad_753043717aa497d10ebfd6dd1976da3179e90223.j pg

[WHBM]

Fine old Leningrad/St Petersburg terminal in the background there, still in use by BA until about 10 years ago when the new midfield terminal opened. I've been a regular in there for the last 20 years. BA normally used one of the three (only) jetways, most others being on the coaching stands as here. The terminal building, still there, is a fine example of Soviet late-1930s Stalinist architecture with exterior stonework decoration, which seemed reminiscent of the old Liverpool terminal building of the same era, while inside it felt like a British secondary school layout. We actually thought it worked better, in many respects, than its replacement. At the end it was towered over from outside by charter 747s headed for Turkish resorts.

BA Tridents just once weekly until the late 1970s, when 737-200s took over, the ones BA leased from Transavia at first, although some years it seemed cancelled altogether.