Beancounters lying again?

[Capt H Peacock]

As I stare at my portfolio heading South this morning, does anyone else share my frustration that yet again, mendacious beancounters are responsible for torpedoing another US corporate giant. Is this an epidemic? Are there anymore leviathans about to come out of the closet? Are there any on this side of the Pond?

From my experience of beancounters in the aviation industry, and their attempts to spin figures to suit the boards policy aims, then perhaps we might use this opportunity to weed them out.

This might just be the beginning of a sea change for accountants, and their questionable disproportionate influence on corporate governance and the reign of common sense.

We can dream, can’t we?

[Lou Scannon]

My experience of accountants in the airline business is that of incompetence and gullibility.

When they sign the annual accounts off, there is rarely any guarantee that the firm will even be there for the following year, despite their "approval" of the latest figures.

I can remember at least one case where the accountants of a smaller airline were believed to be in league with a larger airline that eventually put them out of business.

Anyone who harbours any confidence in the impartiallity, integrity, business sense etc etc of accountants must be thinking very hard about the Enron fiasco and the ability of certain people to use the firm to make money out of thin air.

The only exception to my distrust of the breed are those accountants who quit bean counting. Some of them have turned out to be remarkably competent in other fields.

[Lou Scannon]

...just seen the financial news, Andersons didn't notice a fraud for some £2.5 billion in a firm they audited.

I would like to think that employment as an accountant in that firm should disbar a person from future employment in any position of trust or one that requires numeracy.

It won't happen of course and once again, the poor employee and shareholder will have to pick up their tab.

[Seriph]

So who's going to run the airline if accountants don't? Surely not pilots.

[MarkD]

Apparently the accountants "hid" all the dirty laundry. Andersen, poor dears, just didn't see it.

Where? Under the lampshades? A lose floorboard?

With all the "branching out" the accounting firms did in the 90s it's a wonder they didn't end up doing ramp checks :D

[chiglet]

Re-arrange a "well known acronym" CTA then tell me the answer:rolleyes:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[BlueEagle]

No Seriph, not necessarily pilots but definitely professional, trained managers who have a full understanding of all the segments of the pie chart and not just that little one on which their personal performance is measured and their portfolios and pay-offs rely.

[Seriph]

You mean accountants then? I have'nt seen in these pages any 'profession' aforded any respect except of of course pilots.

[Roger de Rofton]

The sooner ALL parts of an airline realise that their job depends on ALL other departments the better. Why, as evidenced on these erstwhile pages, can't (for example) pilots and managers sit down together and air their differences in a grown up way and come up with a solution or compromise that will satisfy all? Same with bean counters and managers, engineers and beancounters and managers etc etc etc.

The sooner the culture of "My department, nothing to do with you " and "Your dept, not my problem" is stamped out the sooner airlines (and indeed business in general) will be run better.

I post this more in a spirit of optimism than expectation.

RdR:(

[G.Khan]

Seriph - Where have you been? This is a pilots forum, not an accountants!

But you are wrong, respect has been afforded to a wide variety of professions, Doctors, Engineers, Lawyers, (YES! - even lawyers), ATC, professional Investigators, (both accident and insurance), well, that is to name but a few of the many.

Don't know where you have been but obviously not here!:rolleyes:

[Capt H Peacock]

I don’t think anyone here suggests that accountants shouldn’t be a part of the structure of any large company. But is it too much to ask that they are honest? In the situation we are referring to here, we see expenses being put against capital expenditure. That’s not clever accounting, it’s lying. It has particular relevance here, since there was an allegation recently about one airline capitalising the maintenance costs of its aircraft so that they would not appear on the operating cost side.

Henk Potts of Barclay’s Stockbrokers summed it up very well yesterday when he said ‘Accountants are there to serve the shareholders and not the board. If we can’t trust them, then we might all just as well pack up and go home’.

I’m sick and tired of clever suits who spend their time trying to fiddle the books and screw the staff just so that they can achieve their annual bonus. If you ask me the whole gambit of corporate remuneration packages and performance appraisal needs to be looked at very closely indeed. This sort of practice wouldn’t be tolerated in the second hand car trade, let alone a safety critical professional industry.
:mad:

[GrandPrix]

Seriph,
Pilots could do no worse in running an airline than the pencil pushing arse scratchers.

[Seriph]

Please Grand Prix give me an example. Pilots are very good at talking but could'nt run the proverbial market stall. So Capt Peacock, all accountants are liars and cheats? Like all pilots are typical of those that fly into hills and outer markers! If it was'nt for the entrepenuers and business guys, backed by specislists such as accountants and 'beanstealers' you would'nt have any airlines, what would you do then? Sell insurance?

[Lou Scannon]

I'm pleased that someone like Seriph is prepared to support the accountancy profession in their hour of need.

I understand that there is always a shortage of prison visitors so he should get his name down early so that he can keep in touch.

Any accountant who lacks probity deserves all he gets. The equivalent to the pilot profession would be to endanger passenger safety for personal gain and I would have no sympathy there either.

[Seriph]

What utter and pompous drivel.

[BlueEagle]

Well, I would have to disagree there Seriph, names like Enron, WorldCom, Xerox and Arthur Andersen spring to mind immediately, quite possibly many more to follow - all within the domain of the accountant and nothing to do with pilots!

[Cyclic Hotline]

If it was'nt for the entrepenuers and business guys, backed by specislists such as accountants and 'beanstealers' you would'nt have any airlines, what would you do then? Sell insurance?

The exact same group of people who are behind the scandalous activities that are so much in the news today and are unable to either decipher the activities within their respective organisations, or are at the very core of those activities!

If it wasn't for the pilots, engineers, flight attendants, baggage handlers, office staff and all the myriad of supporting personnel that comprise an airline, their wouldn't be the means of operating the aircraft to generate the revenue to pay the bloated salaries and compensatory packages that these key individuals you have identified are so deserving of.

There is more than one airline (or any other business for that matter) that has been driven to the wall by the arrogance of it's ownership or management, relative to the importance of it's key employees, ie: the ones that provide the basic business that generates the revenue.

I am unable to recollect a single airline that took flight without pilots, engineers, and all the other essential personnel that comprise an airline. A sound business relies on the very best personnel in every capacity if it is to succeed.

Airlines (and any business) rely on overall planning, capability and the capacity of building a winning team. If it weren't for the remaining players on the team what would you be doing - collecting tickets on the tube?

These scumbag thieves that are stealing honest people's money deserve everything they are going to get - and they are going to get a lot. In penalising them, care should be given to ensure they recive treatment similar to the worst case of the individuals they have ripped off - left with absolutely nothing!:mad:

I have nothing in particular against anyone in any part of the business, but if you are trusted with the fiduciary responsibility for the company (and my money), you had damned well better understand the meaning of responsibility and consequence!

[Seriph]

Ah, how wonderful to be so perfect, the answer of course is very simple, lets put pilots and baggage handlers in charge of things and see how long they last. 'Organised labour' is responsible for more strife in industry than accountants.

[Lou Scannon]

Sorry Seriph, but you are ignoring the history of several airlines. Sir Michael Bishop started off as an ops clerk and there have been many others. There have also been many cases of non-practising accountants moving into top management and doing a good job. There has even been the odd pilot making the grade!

What pilots object to are the accountants employed as accountants who fail in the requirement to be either numerate or honest. Since this thread started several more cases have come to light that involve billions of mis-placed money. We are not moaning about the odd accountancy error-just the ones that cost multitudes of shareholders their savings and multitudes of employees their jobs.

I believe that over the next few months, the self-regulation that accountants have always enjoyed, will be changed for draconian controls and mandatory jail time. Perhaps, but this is a personal flight of fantasy, we may also see a higher level of integrity from the politicians who might stop taking "contributions" from firms like Andersen's in return for an easy ride.

(And before you leap in to defend politicians-I am not accusing everyone of them of being bent!)

Just seen in the Sunday Times in a cartoon, a bearded protester carrying a placard that reads:
"Crush Capitalism-employ an accountant".

[Seriph]

Well well there's a turnup for the books, Lou leaping to the rights of poor defenceless shareholders, aren't they part of the nasty greedy capitalist system. I'm sure also that Sir Mike has never employed accountants obviously prefering those paragons of virtue and honesty, masters of every facet of business -------------- pilots!
So you don't think they will be self regulating for long heh. Well what would you know about it, for instance, is every individual involved here an accountant?