TigerAir debacle [Archive]

biton

29th Mar 2016, 01:58

Tigerair Australia new Bali service awaiting Indonesia approval (http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/tigerair-australias-new-bali-service-hit-by-lack-of-regulatory-approval-from-indonesia/news-story/0ac0888e6ab23239046f036fa6ebed46)

Ferrying empty 737 aircraft on international routes sounds like a great way to chew through cash fast. Lucky the management just got given a loan.......

PoppaJo

29th Mar 2016, 03:11

Is the Indonesian Government still upset with the Australian Government?

Clearly a Political delay.

In retaliation we should restrict any increase in flights from the likes of Air Asia Indonesia and Garuda if they want to play that game....

SeldomFixit

29th Mar 2016, 04:32

The day any Australian Government willingly steps onto a level playing field, will be the day Mother Theresa has triplets.

Icarus2001

29th Mar 2016, 04:50

They were just making progress gaining the trust of the travelling public again.

Various Australian agencies may be interested in this. CASA should be and Fair Trading may be asking why they sold tickets for a service that was not "approved".

Cue the lawyers entering stage left, selling tickets for something you do not have a licence to operate? Mmmmmmm

PS Didn't Air Asia fail to have approval for their ill fated Surabaya to Singapore service? QZ8501

Is the Indonesian Government still upset with the Australian Government?

http://www.traveller.com.au/bali-indonesia-visas-visafree-entry-for-australians-promised-again-gluh6y

porch monkey

29th Mar 2016, 05:36

Just another speed hump along the way. Good thing we pay good money for competent management :\. Couldn't organise a r@@t in a brothel with a fist full of hundreds......:ugh:

aussie027

29th Mar 2016, 05:49

30 Day free Indo visa's in effect since last week, see here-
2016 - Complete list of countries with Indonesia free visa entry (http://www.topbali.com/indonesia-free-visa-entry/)

Icarus2001

29th Mar 2016, 07:22

Which would indicate that it is probably not about tit for tat diplomacy with the Indonesian government.

Derfred

29th Mar 2016, 07:51

I'm not sure I can immediately side with the posters defending Tiger and blame "politics" by the Indo's.

This airline does not have a very clean record of safety oversight.

But, I'm interested, how does this "dampish" lease actually work? Isn't it VA aircraft operated by VA pilots, presumably maintained via VA? It appears perhaps that the regulatory approval is needed via Tiger's AOC even though it is effectively operated by an airline that already has route approval? Perhaps Tiger have not been forthcoming with sufficient paperwork. You need staff for that.

And I love the quote that a discount airline should not offer a dodgy service! HTF are they going to stay so discounted then? I bought a $10 Rolex in Thailand once. It fell apart after a few months. So I spent the next six months complaining about it on the interwebs. Next trip to Thailand I bought another one. It only lasted a week. I'm getting really frustrated because Rolex are not returning my calls.

Icarus2001

29th Mar 2016, 08:12

I'm not sure I can immediately side with the posters defending Tiger and blame "politics" by the Indo's.
Who was defending Tiger above?

Derfred

29th Mar 2016, 08:25

Sorry, I guess there was only one

Clearly a Political delay.

My bad.

Icarus2001

29th Mar 2016, 08:27

Post 7 was mine and it has the opposite meaning to what you suggest.

Derfred

29th Mar 2016, 08:46

Yes, sorry Icarus, I posted in a hurry and amended it immediately. You obviously beat me to it. Carry on, all.

The Bullwinkle

29th Mar 2016, 09:08

Airline management 101 would probably encourage organisations to ensure they have the necessary approvals in place BEFORE they start selling tickets!!!

TBM-Legend

29th Mar 2016, 09:22

Without the "facts" you're shooting from the hip!

morno

29th Mar 2016, 09:50

So everyone who's commented knows all the facts behind the story?

And post the grounding, what proof do you have that their safety oversight is not adequate?

Also, what does safety oversight have to do with the Indonesian Government not granting approval because they want to be difficult?

Finally, when are you planning on moving on and realising that things have changed and the people there now are focusing on keeping the airline safe and professional?

morno

Eastwest Loco

29th Mar 2016, 10:06

From within the Airline industry I was told today they had the rights to fly passengers in locked down but had failed to complete the necessary compliances to fly passengers out.

Interesting to see their website was still offering DPS MEL non stop flights over the next few days, marketed as non stop.

Amateur in the extreme and a good reason from my point of view not to sell them. I don't need the client angst or the extra work for no return that it creates.

Best all

EWL

The Bullwinkle

29th Mar 2016, 10:19

Without the "facts" you're shooting from the hip!

Tigerair Australia’s new Bali service hit by lack of regulatory approval from Indonesia
They either had the approval or they didn't!
As it has been shown, they didn't have the approval so therefore they shouldn't have been selling tickets.

RAD_ALT_ALIVE

29th Mar 2016, 10:28

Whether or not they or the others are to blame is an argument that will be mulled over for a while on this erstwhile forum.

But to have nongs say that without regulatory approval, Tigerair shouldn't have been selling tickets only supports the notion that idiots frequently post on this site; I distinctly recall that every new destination on Jetstar's international network was sold with the caveat 'subject to regulatory approval'.

So are Tigerair's.

It's lawful. It may not seem right, but it's lawful.

So if that seems so irritating, go and shirtfront your local member and convince them to change the law as it currently stands.

The Bullwinkle

29th Mar 2016, 10:36

So if that seems so irritating, go and shirtfront your local member and convince them to change the law as it currently stands.
No, I'll leave that to the hundreds of passengers who will never spend their money with Tiger again.
This is a real win for Jetstar!!!

porch monkey

29th Mar 2016, 11:27

EW
, they can still advertise and sell tickets DPS MEL, they just can't fly the sector. That's why VA are still ferrying empty frames up, and bringing punters out. Hence the massive waste of money alluded to above.

PoppaJo

29th Mar 2016, 11:42

You seem to be missing the facts here...

They can fly any pax that originate in Australia, and return in one booking

They cannot fly pax that are one way DPS-AU or DPS-AU-DPS. 99% of traffic on these Bali flights are Australian originating traffic and return journey. Those 1% folks have been moved to Virgin.

galdian

29th Mar 2016, 13:11

Inter company stuff, reading from the QF/JQ songsheet VB to offload "tourist" destination to tiger but 320 not up to the task legs wise, tiger can't operate 73 until on their AOC, announced will happen but slowly - guesstimate over next 12 months +/-.

Until 73 on tiger AOC flights are charter, not RPT, and not International, and not International RPT etc etc; different catagories, different requirements.

Problem(s) not anticipated/forseen by outgoing or receiving departments of either entity (rules and regs, laws and other crap....whatever the responsible divisions are labelled these days) or so the story goes.

Poor internal management - sure would NEVER, EVER happen in QF/JQ!! :E:E:ok:

tery84vx

30th Mar 2016, 01:22

didn't somthing similar happen with Indonesian Air Asia X and there start up of direct Aus Bali flights?

juzanuthapilot

30th Mar 2016, 06:55

Have to agree with RA Alive.

Airlines frequently sell subject to government approval. They need the sales lead time to fill the seats and generate cash flow. OZ - DPS is not a quick sell market when compared to SYD-MEL. Once you have your part 129 approval, slots, approval under the ASA etc, you have to use it straight away. Indo in particular, has a use it or lose it policy.

The commencement of the northern summer schedule was the target date for the TT/VA switch. Something was overlooked, or project deadline wasn't met. It happens and I am sure they will learn a hard lesson from it.

Anyway, JQ have been wet leasing 3K between Aus and Indo for years. It is nothing new.

Eastwest Loco

30th Mar 2016, 10:37

Yes porch. I see all of that and every ticket I manually have to construct has a place in the mask to indicate that it could be subject to Government approval and if it is it our responsibility to indicate so. And yes, we do actually issue our own tickets and not via a middleman and we carry 110 separate plates for individual carriers. Rare that - about 3% of Agencies self issue.

Do a search on DPS as a point of origin in the TT website and you will find there is no available destination but yet they are willing to take Australian punters bucks with a disclaimer that means nothing to them as they are unaware there is a problem with the return.

They may be chartering airframes to do the return but basically have 2 empty aeroplanes belting around to cover each flight. Obviously Management Trainees have infiltrated the system.

So, they can't sell fares ex DPS so they don't market that but are happy to sell return fares ex Australia with no way of knowing if they can provide return transport on their own aeroplane? Yeah - right. Passengers have had to cop big delays and come back over Perth to get to the East Coast. Now they are chartering but weren't then.

Irresponsible and amateur. You may be a fan of TT but any Agent that recommends them or doesn't warn people off is an idiot or works for Blight Centre.

GA is 1st choice for us, JQ second and beyond that SQ or MH on via services.

Never TT - anywhere. This is an illustration of why.

I totally understand why a massive waste of money was alluded to.

It is one.

Best regards

EWL

PoppaJo

30th Mar 2016, 10:46

EWL

You are missing the point. As so is everyone else.

They can sell AU-DPS-AU return. There is no issue bringing back the punters as long as it's a return journey from Australia. They can sell one way to Bali also.

There are no more empty aircraft. The only aircraft that were empty were 3 on Day 1 as they got the pax to Bali, but considering they can only take Australian originating return journeys, they obviously have no punters for the first legs back.

Hardly a major issue, how many pax actually originate in Bali? It's less than 5%.

Eastwest Loco

30th Mar 2016, 12:12

Accepted PJ and apologies to all for my misinterpretation.

Funnily enough about 40% of my DPS traffic originates in Indonesia on the way to the Marshall Islands and are Indo seamen. Most transit DPS on way to NAN and then onto Nauru Air to Majuro. Interesting logistically as you can't have them on the ground in OZ over 8 hours and can't transit US ports which rules out Guam, Kwajalein and a few others.

As they often originate Padang, Gunung Sitoli, Medan and Jakarta as well as a bunch of other ports, Garuda or MH are generally the only choices as SQ doesn't recognise a non GDS airline as valid oncarriage and won't board them.

It will however be interesting to see how they go once they get all their cack together and what yield they get off the service.

Best regards

EWL

morno

30th Mar 2016, 21:17

GA is 1st choice for us

Remind me to never book through you. So far you've been wrong with just about everything you've said.

Take a look at the stats from the government, you're more likely to arrive and arrive on time flying Tigerair than you are JQ.

morno

leffe

30th Mar 2016, 23:46

If I want to fly TT Denpasar-Melbourne.....can I book a Melbourne-Denpasar-Melbourne on TT, but not use the Melbourne-Denpasar sector???

Eastwest Loco

31st Mar 2016, 02:16

leffe

31st Mar 2016, 03:27

Hey Eastwest Loco,

I appreciate the response....I contacted tiger air directly and they have no problem with cancelling the Melbourne-Denpasar and only using the Denpasar-Melbourne sector, of course no refund which I don't care about, as long as you have a booking ref number it's all ok....cheers

FYI only

chookcooker

31st Mar 2016, 04:04

No Leffe
Coupons must be used in order or the e ticket is ruled invalid in this case where traffic rights do not or did not exist. If the traffic rights existed at the time of the outbound booking the outward flight would be forfeited and the return could be utilised.

morno
You must be thinking of the Garuda of 30 years ago.
They were "interesting" back then but now they are listed as 5 star and perform like it. We move a lot of people into regional Indo and operationally and with regard to schedule they are excellent.

One can't disguise the fact that this has been a major faux pas though can they?

Best all
EWL

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda_Indonesia_Flight_200

"crossed the threshold 87kts fast"
yes clearly A grade operators.

i guess only 21 people died. thats 21 people not around their loved ones anymore. but hey, the sevice is pretty good. theyre sort of on time.
Ive personally witnesed them fly straight through thunderstorms on final. and not just one.
They are better than Lion Air though........probably.

porch monkey

31st Mar 2016, 08:58

EWL, Fan of Tiger? hardly.:yuk:

Eastwest Loco

31st Mar 2016, 13:37

Not a fan porch. Any airline that causes work for no return which they have in the past is consigned to the backburner and yes, it is selfish and based on past opinions just as morno has past opinion. All to a degree valid. Maybe not nice, but that's the way it is.

leffe - you have done well. The airline is in contravention of the currnt terms of uplift and it would make me worried, but if they are willing to wear it then good thing! It becomes their problem. I am impressed that the res centre had the balls to actually make a decision! Very unusual is any res room these days.

chook - yep the Jogjag accident was bad and years ago. I believe the cockpit culture has been severely addressed due to that hull and life loss. I would still much rather fly GA internal than Lion, Merpati or God forbid Batavia.

Best al

EWLl

RAD_ALT_ALIVE

31st Mar 2016, 17:19

EWL, I still vividly recall you having an issue with JQ too when they first kicked-off operations back in '04-'05. That was 'the past' but you gladly accept their cash now. Why the attitude with Tigerair?

They clearly don't need agents to fill sufficient seats at the moment.

As I've said before, travel agents exist for the ignorant and the computer-illiterate. There is such a vast amount of guiding information on the net that is designed to help the inexperienced traveller that it is inevitable that agents will disappear from mainstream and instead become a niche industry.

In the meantime, don't slag an airline because they won't help fund your retirement; that's entirely their choice.

I'd be far more careful about singing the praises of an airline that has had a very checkered safety history and has killed Australian travellers. Did you help with any of their bookings? How would you feel if you had? New aircraft, a new service and flash new paint don't a safe airline make.

A pig with lipstick is still a pig.

leffe

1st Apr 2016, 00:39

Eastwest loco

You mention Merpati Airlines and Batavia, both those airlines are bankrupt and have been for several years, as a travel agent or whatever you say you are once again your facts are incorrect....just saying

porch monkey

1st Apr 2016, 10:22

Think you misinterpreted me EWL. You stated I may be a fan. I am not, for various reasons. Sarcasm doesn't come over well in print sometimes.

Eastwest Loco

1st Apr 2016, 13:01

No porch. I was not having a go at you and was agreeing that I am not a fan.

As for TT every booking we have made every one has gone pear shaped. That was the early ones and I have had a few Corporates of late that had to use them and it went ok. I remain nervous of the late night call though. Naturally there is an aversion factor.

RAD - we add a service fee to TT and with JQ a service fee is built in through the Agent website. One will never retire on JQ but it is done as a service. They are behaving much more like a proper airline these days when something goes pear shaped and seem to have solved most of their website problems and the call centre in MNL actually makes sense. I did have a an issue with JQ. They have improved but like any airline aren't totally perfect. It makes no difference to them whether I sell them or not, nor does it to tiger.

Also when I as at TN WNY we had the wife of the Port of Burnie Authority CEO onboard a certain NZ DC10 that didn't quite make the round trip intended. I know how it feels mate and since their last hull and life loss GA has become a totally different airline.

leffe

Merpati and Batavia are gone and I do know this. So is Adam Air but there are a bunch of others such as Expressair belting around. We used to have to use SMAC between North Sumatera and Gunungsitoli on Nias Island for surf contests. Now they were scary and lost a minimum of one airframe and associated lives every wet season.

EWL

Goat Whisperer

6th Apr 2016, 04:06

EWL, every time GA have lost an airframe it promised to be a different airline. Better seats and free booze appeal to Bali travellers but are no indication of an airline's safety.

I say this as a friend of several (now ex) GA 737 drivers.

But I strongly suspect they're the safest in Indonesia. I firmly believe the current TT/VA debacle to be a safer operation. And I have some first hand knowledge.