Fatigue

[megan]

All will be more than well aware of the debate about fatigue issues in the Middle East carriers as a result of the accident in Russia.

What are the rostering practices of Australian airlines like? Fatigue an issue? Problems associated should you call sick due fatigue?

Just SLF interest. Thanks in advance.

[CurtainTwitcher]

See the thread FRMS Battlelines (http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/575095-frms-battlelines.html) on this topic...

[neville_nobody]

It isn't as big a problem as overseas primarily because:

-Successful NIMBY lobbies putting curfews on airports everywhere:D
-Domestically you will fly anywhere in less than 5 hours and ultimately passengers aren't interested in arriving somewhere at 0230. Most international flights by Australian Airlines have 3+ crew on board, basically due to the tyranny of distance.
-Union input to EBA's & work rules
- Our flight and duty regulations are not as generous as some overseas jurisdictions
- Middle Eastern Airlines also use 'Augmented Flight Time' which you can't do as an Australian airline.

On saying that I don't believe 900+ hours a year short haul is sustainable rostering over a long period of time either even with all the above considered.

[Icarus2001]

Domestically you will fly anywhere in less than 5 hours

Which means some dubious out and back flights.

[lostflyer]

What about the Australian owned Airlines based in NZ running under the weak NZCAA rules which basically allow the Company to set the Fatique Rule limits.

[The Bullwinkle]

Or the dubious practice of rostering 12 hour duty days, flying 3 sectors with a total of only 5 hours of flight time, but padded out by having 3 hours of sitting around airports between each sector, with no acceptable crew rest areas.

[neville_nobody]

Whilst not ideal those circumstances are not the same as flying to all points of the compass at any hour day or night whilst still jet lagged.

[The Bullwinkle]

Or after early starts 4 days in a row, disrupting the circadian rhythm by switching to a late start for the next day and flying 4 sectors in 11 and a half hours with the final sector flying into a CTAF late at night.

[framer]

The rules for truck drivers in NZ state that they must have 30 mins rest every 5 1/2 hours.
In Australia for the heavy solo truck drivers I think it is 30 mins every 9 hours.
Both have maximum hours of duty ( paperwork/ loading / driving etc) that are the same or less than narrow body regional pilots.
Pilots are regularly doing shifts over 10 hours with no break at unsociable hours day in day out. There is certainly potential here for trouble if the pilots are reluctant to put their hand up and say they are fatigued. The system won't catch it because it is all legal so the sole responsibility to call it rests with the individual. Sound like a good plan?
In my mind it is a regulation issue. The Airlines will always see the limits as a target so the limits must be sensible.

[Metro man]

Didn't a chief pilot make a comment along the lines of "toughen up princesses" a while ago ?

[Ned Stark]

All will be more than well aware of the debate about fatigue issues in the Middle East carriers as a result of the accident in Russia.

What are the rostering practices of Australian airlines like? Fatigue an issue? Problems associated should you call sick due fatigue?

Just SLF interest. Thanks in advance.
The way these questions are posed make it sound very much like a reporter getting info for a story.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just out of curiosity guys. Would you be happy if the LAMEs on your aircraft had worked 44 hours straight changing an engine without a rest break?

[V-Jet]

1) Doesn't matter what we think - I'm sure Alan would think that perfectly acceptable, a fine example of 'work/life balance' (I think that's the term these days).
2) Can't be the case anyway - everyone knows aircraft fix themselves.....

[megan]

The way these questions are posed make it sound very much like a reporter getting info for a storyNope, just a very, very old ex pro aviator who plied his trade outside of airlines.

[Ollie Onion]

Airlines in this part of the world do not take fatigue seriously, just look at the way Jetstar has appealed the courts ruling over providing meal and rest breaks in New Zealand. The claim was filed over 6 years ago and despite every court in the land ordering Jetstar to provide the legislated breaks in a days duty they still aren't! We have 3 sector trans tasman, 11.5 hour duties, All with minimum turns, you often don't have time to leave the flight deck for anything other than the walk around.

Take my last roster over 5 days:

1 - 13:30 - 22:30
2 - 13:30 - 22:30
3 - 13:30 - 18:30
4 - 05:30 - 12:45
5 - 19:15 - 05:30

How the hell you are meant to be well rested for that I don't know, I filed a report and the response was that the 'computer said this is not a fatiguing duty'?

[Blitzkrieger]

Just out of curiosity guys. Would you be happy if the LAMEs on your aircraft had worked 44 hours straight changing an engine without a rest break?

Fed Sec, short answer, no.

[Ollie Onion]

We run a ceraion of FAID, problem being if you call fatigued then you have to fill in a fatigue checklist and the company runs your roster thrpugh FAID. Ypu then get told that the duty is not fatiguing and you lose a days pay! So now I just call in sickas it is mot worth the hassle, so I guess the companies FMRS is working to reduce fatigue reports.

[Bort Simpson]

[... I filed a report and the response was that the 'computer said this is not a fatiguing duty'?[/QUOTE]

Mr Onion, what you have been told obviously shouldn't have been said because:

A computer cannot actually know how you feel (does it know if the neighbour's dog barked all night and kept you awake?)
According to CASA's FRMS Handbook, using the computer fatigue monitoring tool to tell people they are not fatigued is a no no. It is only there for a NO-GO decision, not for a "you are OK to go" decision.
Your path of action:
Your organisation must either have a FRMS SAG or have a standing order of FRMS within the existing SAG (Safety Action Group). You can raise your issue (and the inappropriateness of the company response) through your crew representatives in the SAG.
Alternatively or additionally, you can respond to fatigue and safety reports and notify them that you are not satisfied with the outcome due to reasons XYZ etc.


I hope that helps.


Look up the FRMS Handbook, its online.


Bortman

[Blitzkrieger]

Bortman,

What you say would be true in any normal world, but...

If there was a robust, truly safety driven safety system in place, that paid the slightest bit of attention to the concerns of the staff, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Your employer has no regard for fatigue management while they continue to bear no legal responsibility for what happens on your watch. You are responsible for your mistakes, and management make it untenable for you to avoid those mistakes by discharging your duty not to fly fatigued; the perfect crime.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The major airlines in Australia couldn't give a flying crap about safety. Lodge as many reports as you like, they will hide them with CASAs tacit approval. If you talk about fatigue, Qantas recently directed 8 Engineers to work 44 hours straight without a rest break. No this is not an April fools joke it was 44 hours straight on an engine change.


We reported it, they wrote back to tell me that they would not carry out an investigation.

[framer]

What did casa say about it?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Haven't told them yet. Thought we'd give Qantas plenty of opportunity to sort it out internally. A lot of talk and no action. I am sick of managers saying they put safety first when in reality they put it dead set last.

[framer]

I actually find it hard to believe but if it is true then the regulator needs to be involved regardless of how the company reacts.

[Blitzkrieger]

44 hours without rest is a reportable matter, not an industrial one.

[LAME2]

In my opinion, CASA will back QANTAS. CASA, again in my opinion, have never shown the willingness to follow through with tough actions against QANTAS. I don't understand why the engineers involved didn't pack up after 14 hours and go to the hotel, even if they had to pay for the rooms themselves, they can claim it back after the usual Management fight. I would have liked to have seen his actioned by FWA. I cannot see how FWA would go against the guys if they were then back at the job after a 10 hour break, after all QANTAS would put the position that employees have a part to play in Fatigue Management. This itself empowers the employees to call it a night and be back again after a 10 hour break.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

There is so much pressure from management these days to get aircraft out at all costs it is downright dangerous, not only at Qantas. We've recently reported three incidents at Qantas where managers yell and order LAMEs to do things illegally and the airline couldn't give a damn.

[framer]

Qantas recently directed 8 Engineers to work 44
Directed is the key word I'm guessing, doesn't mean they did it....right ALAEA?