HondaJet pilot report? [Archive]

eelb

24th Feb 2016, 12:46

I've noticed the absence of those too. Generally the major monthly publications, send their guy out to fly the thing, where we can get some semblance of real world numbers. There's nothing of the sort with the Honda so far. It makes one wonder if either the aviation media and/or Honda have something to hide.

Other than looking different with the above wing engines, I doubt that there's anything different performance wise than what other airplanes in this category offer. But it's Honda, so a lot of non-aviation types think it's the greatest thing to come along since the Wright Bros.

Deep and fast

24th Feb 2016, 19:02

a neat video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM9cXN5Bsng

Didn't know they used geared turbofans :O

OFBSLF

26th Feb 2016, 14:35

I've noticed the absence of those too. Generally the major monthly publications, send their guy out to fly the thing, where we can get some semblance of real world numbers. There's nothing of the sort with the Honda so far. It makes one wonder if either the aviation media and/or Honda have something to hide.

That was exactly what made me curious. By this time in development Flying and/or AviationWeek would usually have published a pilot report.

sellbydate

26th Feb 2016, 15:56

davidpa28140

7th May 2016, 02:01

No new field performance figures post certification are promulgated yet, still only the old pre-certification sales brochure very broad-brush estimates. What we want is the real landing (in particular) and take-off figures for this speedy, slippery jet with tiny little brakes and not a lot of lift dump capability, albeit there's the clam-shell type brakes as an option but not as standard fit.

You nailed it, there is a suspicious lack of proven,actual data... The clamshell air brake you speak of isn't really a lift dump mechanism like the Cessna but it is a $100,000 option.

sellbydate

9th May 2016, 11:38

Now customer deliveries have begun, including into Europe with people like RAS in Germany and presumably other dealers like TAG(?), surely some of those real figures are out in the public domain for field performance, albeit FAA only? No mention of a date for EASA certification still, perhaps that will be an announcement at EBACE later in the month?

AZAV8R

11th May 2016, 06:57

The HondaJet interior fit, finish, and material quality is well behind a competitive Citation 525 series product or a EMB-500, with poor panel and cabinetry fitment. The cockpit is very tight, with panels and switch gear that are car-like but cheap and likely to be prone to breakage and failure. The view out the front is distorted by the heat elements. Refueling is accomplished via an aft RH fuselage fill port where the filler cap is left to dangle and damage the paint.

Performance will have to be outstanding to make up for an otherwise unimpressive design execution.

sellbydate

11th May 2016, 07:52

In the ten years it's taken Honda to get this pocket rocket to market, Embraer have delivered a thousand business jets....you'd think they'd have time to iron out a few little quirks

atpcliff

11th May 2016, 09:58

The nose is oddly shaped to provide lift. The engines over the wing provides more cabin space relative to the length/weight of the aircraft.

Matvey

19th May 2016, 03:15

It's the cover story in Plane & Pilot this month. P&P's new editor (and the pilot/writer of the article) is Robert Goyer, so you wonder if he struck some kind of deal that he'd get the first exclusive for his new mag instead of the guys that fired him at Flying.

AdamFrisch

19th May 2016, 04:20

Good article. He was very positive to it.

x933

21st May 2016, 17:53

Flew in one last week. PAX wise, does what it says on the tin. Quiet in the cabin, ride was good, didn't feel too full with 6 on board. I didn't think the build quality was too bad - not much by way of squeaks or rattles in the cruise.

I'd want to fly in an M2 on the same day before making a decision as to which one I'd buy (completely ignoring the numbers & potential operational difficulties inherent with a new type from a new manufacturer).

stilton

22nd May 2016, 04:10

There's a Pilot report in my latest copy of Flying as well (don't know if its the same one RG wrote for Plane and Pilot)

OFBSLF

26th May 2016, 18:40

Thank you! Here it is online: We Fly It First: HondaJet Arrives! - Plane & Pilot Magazine (http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/hondajet-arrives/#.V0dC_ZMrKEI)

This sentence in the article is a puzzler to me:

Honda Aircraft has worked exceptionally hard to keep the airplane from being flown and those impressions publicized, much to the frustration of aviation journalists like me, not to mention consumers, who are wondering what all the buzz is about.

Why would Honda want to keep this under wraps? Why not grab the free publicity? I don't get it.

Lucky8888

27th May 2016, 01:22

Thank you! Here it is online: We Fly It First: HondaJet Arrives! - Plane & Pilot Magazine (http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/hondajet-arrives/#.V0dC_ZMrKEI)

This sentence in the article is a puzzler to me:

Why would Honda want to keep this under wraps? Why not grab the free publicity? I don't get it.
Not ready for prime time. Negative reviews are far worse than no reviews.

His dudeness

28th May 2016, 10:39

BCA has one in their june edition

Jwscud

28th May 2016, 14:54

Anyone like Pete Collins going to fly it and give it a more technical and less journalistic appraisal?

OFBSLF

1st Jun 2016, 16:37

AviationWeek just printed their pilot report:

HondaJet | Analysis and Pilot Report | Business Aviation content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/business-aviation/pilot-report-flying-hondajet-ha-420)

The HondaJet interior fit, finish, and material quality is well behind a competitive Citation 525 series product or a EMB-500, with poor panel and cabinetry fitment.

Fred George of AviationWeek seemed to think differently:

But the Profile only tells part of the story. The HondaJet raises the bar in entry-level light jets for passenger comfort, cabin quiet and baggage capacity. Optional luxury features, such as an externally serviced toilet and lavatory with running water, are not available in other light jets. The aircraft also has the best ride quality in turbulence of any entry-level light jet in production, in our opinion.

Fit and finish of this aircraft are unsurpassed in its class. Exterior surface tolerances are tight, all doors fit precisely and the paintwork is superb. The interior furnishings also are first rate, befitting of an aircraft that sells for more than $5.1 million with options.

controlx

2nd Jun 2016, 07:09

Reading that B&CA profile, they key pointers that stand out when pitched against the peers of the M2 and the Phenom 100 are that:

Cabin is O.K. size-wise, it's fast and its fuel efficient. Downsides are field performance - both take off distances and landing distance, payload with full fuel is poor, range with max payload is poor, watch the real Basic Operating Weight once you add the usual options - at least 300 lbs more than the 'brochure' figures. They're still waiting for known icing conditions approval and RVSM approval so not quite ticked all the boxes yet on the certification front.

So, I guess one could say it's similar in some respects to the older, smaller Lears, but without the range capability.

AZAV8R

2nd Jun 2016, 08:15

AviationWeek just printed their pilot report:

HondaJet | Analysis and Pilot Report | Business Aviation content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/business-aviation/pilot-report-flying-hondajet-ha-420)

Quote:
The HondaJet interior fit, finish, and material quality is well behind a competitive Citation 525 series product or a EMB-500, with poor panel and cabinetry fitment.

Fred George of AviationWeek seemed to think differently:

Quote:
But the Profile only tells part of the story. The HondaJet raises the bar in entry-level light jets for passenger comfort, cabin quiet and baggage capacity. Optional luxury features, such as an externally serviced toilet and lavatory with running water, are not available in other light jets. The aircraft also has the best ride quality in turbulence of any entry-level light jet in production, in our opinion.

Fit and finish of this aircraft are unsurpassed in its class. Exterior surface tolerances are tight, all doors fit precisely and the paintwork is superb. The interior furnishings also are first rate, befitting of an aircraft that sells for more than $5.1 million with options.
I respect Fred's opinion. I would even agree that the interior "looks" nice. But when an interior specialist is picking apart deficiencies and making repairs on a HondaJet dealer's aircraft, that's much more telling than the relatively short period of time that Fred spent scrutinizing the aircraft for his report.

what next

2nd Jun 2016, 20:03

Downsides are field performance...

As much as I like the innovative (VFW 614 apart) concept of the aircraft, the takeoff distance of almost 4000ft quoted in that Aviation Week article for a light jet is a clear showstopper around here. What does anybody need a "lavatory sink with running water" for if he can't fly the aircraft in and out from the closest airfield? And 5+M$? Really?

OFBSLF

3rd Jun 2016, 16:43

Honda has a good backlog of orders, so there seems to be a market for it.

AdamFrisch

3rd Jun 2016, 16:52

As much as I like the innovative (VFW 614 apart) concept of the aircraft, the takeoff distance of almost 4000ft quoted in that Aviation Week article for a light jet is a clear showstopper around here. What does anybody need a "lavatory sink with running water" for if he can't fly the aircraft in and out from the closest airfield? And 5+M$? Really?

A TBM is almost as much. Without a loo. What would you rather have?

what next

5th Jun 2016, 12:01

Honda has a good backlog of orders, so there seems to be a market for it.

I believe that and I can understand that the HondaJet has a lot of appeal. In a country where 5000+ft long runways abound, it is certainly a good choice.
But not in my part of the world (which is why I wrote "around here"). We have lots of small regional airfields with runways between 3000 and 4000ft. Around here, a small jet must be capable to operate from those if you want to sell more than just a few. Dassault aircraft for example are specifically built with these runways in mind.

A TBM is almost as much. Without a loo. What would you rather have?

If my owner, employer or customer needs to fly to his holiday home on a mediterranean island which only has 3114ft of runway, there is not much choice, is there? As much as I would rather have that little jet, the TBM it's going to be... But if we make "unfair" comparisons (twin jet vs. turboprop single), how about this one: 5M$ buys you two freshly painted and upholstered Citation Bravos or Ultras with good engine times. Push one in the corner of your hangar and keep it for spares. The other one can fly in and out of "our" 3000ft runways with 8 people on board over more distance than the the Honda with just the pilots. And there is a toilet (no flowing water though). And the deal will leave you with a million $ of cash to buy the (little) extra fuel the Bravo needs for years and years to come.

Winniebago

4th Apr 2017, 10:36

Strikes me that there is next to no buzz in the market about the Hondajet now it's in service. Presumably they've sorted by now RVSM, flights into known icing etc. etc. - a few handicaps still around after initial deliveries.

New sales must be ever so slow in the current market for this kind of baby jet at that price point? At this rate, the £1 Billion-plus development costs look like a 50+ year ROI!

Have they improved landing performance at all post-certification?

How many outside of the USA now with end-users, not the dealers?

Super little jet, just a decade or more late, perhaps.

When is the Hondajet II to be revealed? Might be a much better value beast, rather like the Phenom 300 when compared to the Phenom 100, lesson's learn't and all that.

Fried_Chicken

6th Apr 2017, 10:59

How many outside of the USA now with end-users, not the dealers?

There are four in Europe, two with dealers (Marshalls and Rheinland AS) and two with customers (one N reg & one F- reg)

FC

bizjetway

12th Apr 2017, 09:38

This video features a Honda Jet owner telling his story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQhLY8zdNCk

PENNINE BOY

12th Apr 2017, 21:36

Spoke to one of their sales staff at The GA show on Lake Constance last week, was full of the sales pitch stuff of exceeding all the performance predictions!
My owner got sick of the 6 year wait and got his deposit back last year.
It was nice to see it in the flesh rather than all the mock ups over the years. Hope it is better than the F1 project!
:D

fatmanmedia

13th Apr 2017, 01:28

Did anyone see Top gear a few weeks back, it had Matt Ml Blanc do part of his race in a hondajet, he seems to like it as a passenger.

Fats

Amadis of Gaul

14th Apr 2017, 12:07

New sales must be ever so slow in the current market for this kind of baby jet at that price point? At this rate, the £1 Billion-plus development costs look like a 50+ year ROI!

I don't think Honda did this for the ROI, they did it to prove they could. I won't comment on the wisdom of such a thought process.

Winniebago

19th Apr 2017, 14:48

I don't think Honda did this for the ROI, they did it to prove they could. I won't comment on the wisdom of such a thought process.

You're probably right there. Still, even for a mega-corporation like Honda, the numbers are frightening. It's never going to be another Embraer who enter the biz jet market and within 10 years have a pretty significant market share.

I hope they do come up with follow-on models with lots of hindsight and lessons learn't and expedite the development and certification process such that by the time it hits the market, it's not effectively ten years too late for that particular niche. They need a pretty good crystal ball to know what the market will want by the time Hondajet II finally emerges.

fairflyer

20th Apr 2017, 18:34

I don't think Honda did this for the ROI, they did it to prove they could. I won't comment on the wisdom of such a thought process.

You make it sound like the pursuit of developing the Bugatti Veyron for Volkswagen, ridiculously expensive vanity project, but ultimately a showcase of their technical capabilities. Arguably though, that genuinely ups the status of VW group overall, increasing car sales, whilst I doubt a similar effect could be seen to have crossed over into stronger brand and therefore sales for other Honda products. Yes, they're a very clever lot, those Honda guys, but will they have sold any more Civics or lawn mowers because they can make a clever little jet too - and the jet engine that goes in it? Would like to see a University study on that and brand value from doing crazy, clever, hideously expensive stuff! I wonder if someone really thought once, say fifteen years ago, they could sell a thousand Hondajets in several years? Or, it was just a technical showcase primarily and if they sold a few hundred over a few years, that would be a bonus?

Amadis of Gaul

29th Apr 2017, 10:25

You make it sound like the pursuit of developing the Bugatti Veyron for Volkswagen, ridiculously expensive vanity project, but ultimately a showcase of their technical capabilities. Arguably though, that genuinely ups the status of VW group overall, increasing car sales, whilst I doubt a similar effect could be seen to have crossed over into stronger brand and therefore sales for other Honda products. Yes, they're a very clever lot, those Honda guys, but will they have sold any more Civics or lawn mowers because they can make a clever little jet too - and the jet engine that goes in it? Would like to see a University study on that and brand value from doing crazy, clever, hideously expensive stuff! I wonder if someone really thought once, say fifteen years ago, they could sell a thousand Hondajets in several years? Or, it was just a technical showcase primarily and if they sold a few hundred over a few years, that would be a bonus?

I have a hunch that it's a combination of all of the above. One perk of being a "mega-corporation" is that you can afford to experiment with things while looking decades down the road. Only Honda knows what their end game with all this is, and they're not really saying. Besides, "hideously expensive" is in the eyes of the beholder...

Tinstaafl

30th Apr 2017, 07:05

I'm supposed to be off to N.Carolina for a type rating on the HondaJet in June. Provided it happens I'll let you know what it's like.

gurumike

15th May 2017, 12:08

As regards magazine etc articles, there are a good few now. I heard the latest issue of Car magazine had a piece and that there was a good one in Flying too...

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/top-gear-tries-out-ps35m-483mph-hondajet#1

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/top-gear-tries-out-ps35m-483mph-hondajet#1

Driver tests out firm's new £4m 'Civic of the Skies' plane | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4371606/Driver-tests-firm-s-new-4m-Civic-Skies-plane.html)

Seems to be mostly positive feedback

gurumike

15th May 2017, 23:19

Sorry - posting fail, meant to post link to the Robb Report piece but doubled on the Top Gear...

The 500mph Honda | Robb Report (http://www.robbreport.co.uk/planes_and_boats/the-500mph-honda/)

osbo

22nd May 2017, 07:14

There's a review in this month's Pilot magazine in the UK.

The big thing that struck me was that it has a limiting crosswind of just 20 knots, said in the article to be down to the increase in keel area from the engine configuration.

20 knots is going to hamper sales, surely?

Jwscud

22nd May 2017, 09:10

Is it a hard limit of 20kts or is it similar to the Lear where they only quote a demonstrated crosswind of 25kts in the manuals and under Private Ops you are free to test your cohones above that should you wish?

I would imagine it would have a larger rudder than similar types with tail mounted engines since the asymmetric forces in engine failure are greater given the mounting position. Does the article mention the asymmetric handling qualities at all.?

osbo

22nd May 2017, 22:46

No, it's made very clear in the article, 20 knots is not a demonstrated limit, it is THE limit!

Rather limiting, if you'll excuse the pun.

stilton

23rd May 2017, 05:18

I think I would find it a bit unusual to have a downward pitch input when adding
thrust and vice versa.

I guess you's get used to it !

lekkerste

23rd May 2017, 10:37

Can this be flown single-crew by an owner? It seemed to suggest that in a promo video I saw. I find the design intriguing, though coming from an airline background I know nothing of its competitors. The brand recognition has to be a big advantage.

As far as x-wind goes, in the type I fly (B744) in EASA-land, it is not a hard limit but a 'guideline'.

what next

23rd May 2017, 17:28

Can this be flown single-crew by an owner?

Yes.

I find the design intriguing, though coming from an airline background I know nothing of its competitors. The brand recognition has to be a big advantage.

The design is also intriguing when used to fly the competitors :) About the brand recognition thing I am not so sure. For me, this is a brand name for motorcycles and lawnmowers.

As far as x-wind goes, in the type I fly (B744) in EASA-land, it is not a hard limit but a 'guideline'.

But I am sure your flight operations department has made that a hard limit for you as well by putting a figure in the OM-B.

lekkerste

23rd May 2017, 18:55

Hmm, interesting. I haven't seen the above-wing mounted pylons before. Are you saying this has already been done on competitor aircraft?

The x-wind 'guideline' in our FCTM is just that, a 'guideline' and the previous hard limit was removed specifically to give us latitude if required. Granted you'd have to have a good reason to make use of it.

megan

24th May 2017, 01:30

I haven't seen the above-wing mounted pylons beforeVFW 614. First flown in 1971, less than 20 built. Operators Cimber Air, Air Alsace, Touraine Air Transport and West German Air Force.

http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/1/8/7/4144781.jpg?v=v46649287e15

Aerodynamics of the concept.

http://www.hondajet.com/Content/pdf/tech_papers/Journal_of_Aircraft_Vol40_No6_P1177_P1184_Wave_Drag_OTWEM.pd f

Other papers.

Technical Papers - HondaJet (http://www.hondajet.com/gallery-and-downloads/technical-papers)