Prospects for the budding pilot with responsibilities.

[holding4release]

Hello all, after many years of reading these forums from the jump seat, I've taken the plunge and become a member.

My situation - for as long as I can remember I've had a keen interest in aviation. (Living near EGMC probably helped). For some reason when I was at school I never considered a flying career a possibility, I guess coming from a not very well off background I almost assumed this was a path reserved for a very select few, akin to becoming an astronaut! As a result I didn't even express my interest to my teachers/parents career officers through fear of ridicule - my biggest regret :ugh:.

Instead my love of machines led me into Agriculture no less. I studied a Bsc at my local Agricultural College and now work in commercial agricultural research. (Not too many machines there).

I've worked hard in my sector and built a life for myself, got a house a wife and a son! But I still find myself tormented by my career choice every time I see another plane jump off the runway and break through the clouds. (I’ll put the violin away now!)

Over the years I've built up a fair amount of aviation knowledge just through curiosity. I can decode a METAR, choose the appropriate holding entry method, interpret a STAR and request an IFR clearance and I’ve only had one 30min trial lesson! needless to say I’m truly fascinated by flying. I think about it when I first wake up and when go to bed. I can only assume that this is normal for those with “the bug”.

Frustratingly it’s only the last couple of years that I think there’s a possibility of this happening for me. I’ve done my research into the two options – integrated vs modular. Because I now have commitments, modular really is my only option, for financial and personal reasons. Neither I nor my family particularly want me away for months at a time and not earning.

So here’s my plan. I’m 24 now, assuming I can come up with the spare cash over the next 10 years.

I do the following at Southend flying club (my local):
PPL
Night
IR
Multi
CPL

And as far as I know this equates to an EASA approved fATPL (correct me if I’m wrong).

I’ll then do a combined MCC and JOC.

Which makes me “technically” employable at a cost of circa £40,000 (again correct me if I’m wrong).

The problem is I look at the requirements of the UK short hauls and they all want around 500 hours plus on >10 tonne GTOW.

So say I achieve all the above by the time I’m 35 (which is old for a new pilot), am I realistically going to find a UK airline that will take me on as a FO or even SO and put me through a type rating, considering 0 commercial experience?

I’m thinking I’ll probably do at least some aspects of the above even if it turns out to be just an expensive but greatly enjoyable hobby! But how much money can you realistically throw at something that won’t see you a return?

To anyone who’s bothered to read this far, thank you! As you can probably tell I really want this and feel I was born to do it – even if a little too late? Any advice welcome, even if it’s putting me off altogether!

[jamesgrainge]

I feel for you buddy. Similar situation at 27, doing the same as you in the same manner. I know I definitely want my PPL and the ability to fly in any conditions/circumstance. I don't know how to judge the situation if I'm honest. I somehow rather suspect the best idea is to a)ask an actual airline pilot (if that's your end goal) and b)approach an airline recruitment staff and ask their views?

I dont really understand the whole modular vs integrated debate. From a personal standpoint I see that you will be a far more experienced and accomplished pilot through modular having more hours on different planes. And people are walking out of the integrated route into jobs with airlines with as little as 250 hours total. So there must be some disconnect with peoples opinions and actual reality, as what is the difference between you and I fully qualified and little Johnny Richparents who has a huge debt and sits in the front of an A320 probably having never landed an aircraft In a crosswind? There is none, the jobs must exist like any other sector, and the same requirements must apply across the board, look at the expected growth in air travel and the requirement for pilots must exist. Don't be put off, enjoy the PPL like I am, enjoy the ability to fly and do it well. Then see what happens. I will undoubtedly take a loan for the IR/CPL but it equates to £30k as oppose to £100000, you do the math....

[holding4release]

Sorry it's taken so long to reply, this forum lark is new on me, was looking for replies regularly but in the wrong place!

Thanks for the advice re- recruitment staff that seems like a sensible idea. I tend to agree with you on the modular front as it surely demonstrates commitment too? It's a bit of a minefield though with subtleties like IR vs IMC ratings and what denotes an approved training organisation? I can see how having a clear cut route that leaves you 100% qualified is attractive.

My short term goal is to nail my PPL but it's hard to shut out the sound of the clock ticking!

Where are you doing yours if you don't mind me asking?

FYI I found an encouraging post on here if you havn't already read it:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/6911-full-story-start-end.html

And also

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/333092-zero-hours-airline-pilot-my-story.html

Good luck :)

[jamesgrainge]

Not a problem, been waiting bored at work for some juicy topics to discuss! I live in the north east so doing the PPL at Durham Tees Valley, they are a good bunch. And my instructor did an integrated at CTC, the irony. Where are you based? Well I think that night and IMC although not necessary for the CPL step are a good idea, as you will need to hours build to 250 for it so I intend to buy a share of a plane somewhere for a year. Not only that I will have a full and greater knowledge of what flying actually entails when its just me up there dealing with the issues. There's quite a gulf between the computer screen and an actual windshear for instance! I was considering multiflight at Leeds for my IR and CPL but the cost savings and time due to weather constraints make me think the likes of Spain might be a good idea at a school.

Thanks for the links, will read with interest!

[holding4release]

I'm in Southend so was thinking they offer IR, multi and CPL at Southend flying club and there's full ATC ILS etc so was considering doing as much there as possible as would prefer not to be away from the family for long periods (what that looks like to an employer I don't know)

Would be interesting to see your progress. Have you worked out a/c sharing as cost effective then? I was looking at the instructor route personally, get paid that way! I reckon Spain or even the states if you have the choice to go further a field, it's all different experiences and your supposedly saving money.

[Dct_Bombi]

Hello chaps

I have not been on pprune in years, lazy sunday on the couch and read your stories so decided to re-enter the fray for a brief moment as I could relate a little to your situations and will add my 5cents from my past experience.
Don't get caught up on the int/modular debate or the age concern. There is as many routes into airlines as there is applicants quiet literally, everyone has there story so stick with what works for you. if you feel comfortable with southend well then stay there, perphaps when you get to the stage for your cpl/ir go and visit some of the FTO's that have abit more of a commercial set up and mindset... when your building hours fly into, stapleford-bournemouth-leeds-oxford etc etc
The more you visit these places the more questions you will raise and have answered hopefully. What ever you do to put money in your pocket keep that going and save carefully, try to minimise the loan as much as possible as it can be a massive millstone around your neck when you qualify. The hardest part is the next day after training, there is a cost to this time,mcc,currency on mep or meir and your medical and keep your hand in flying or get an Instructor rating or a few hours in a sim for the interview prep, it never ends. Plan smart gentlemen and despite your heart driving you on please do engage the brain as many can and do fall at this stage as cash flow stops.
I went modular and loved it, The only thing i would change is the hour building I completed in the states as it was cheaper, however I definitely feel my flying ability was not the better for it, should have stayed at home.
Ask what you will, no doubt some other people will chime in shortly with more up to date info as its been some time since i trained.
Best of luck chaps

[average-punter]

Southend sounds like a good plan. It may be worth checking out the availability of IR training slots, the last thing you want to be doing is wasting time holding outside controlled airspace in an expensive twin! I would certainly make a start in obtaining your PPL then see where it goes from there.

Some airlines tend to go the integrated providers as they have agreements in place in order for them to be able to get a constant stream of a known quantity of pilot at a very cost effective price. It’s got nothing to do with ability, all IMHO of course and I have no desire to get drawn into a mod/int debate here, that has been very well documented on these forums.

Decoding a METAR and nailing an NDB approach to the degree is all fine and well but remember that an airliner is a multi-crew operation; any selection process will include an interview where the interviewer will be assessing you against several competencies most of which are non-technical. A few examples are teamwork, overcoming hurdles and taking the lead. In an industry where commercial sensitivity is at an all time high they will be asking if you fully understand the role of a pilot and the commercial pressures that one can face in the role. For the technical side, some airlines consider the possession of a license enough whilst others may want to see evidence of flying ability in a simulator assessment, however in such assessment non-technical skills (CRM) will almost certainly be assessed alongside.

Best of luck

[jamesgrainge]

Very similar in the north. I didn't consider I was perhaps lucky to have DTV and LBA with full ATC and ILS, suppose that keeps close to home. But when it comes to the CPL and IR one way or another I'm going full time to complete a)as fast as possible and b) to give myself the best chance of passing first time round. Also I think good results with ATPL are important and probably do ground school for a couple of weeks as well as study beforehand myself. I think so, if I did 10 hours it would cost me £1600 in a SEP, whereas you can find a share of a Piper for £200-3000, I think we will be something like 90+ hours short of being able to do the CPL even after night and MEP rating on the back of a PPL. So yeah, I think having a share gives you the chance to fly and enjoy it solo/with family and probably gives you a better insight into the world of flying.

[Reverserbucket]

I intend to seek work probably in the US anyway to gain experience
Do you have the right to live and work there?
..not particularly interested in flying an airliner instantly
Motivation and ambition are good predictors of future success in this industry.
IMO the airlines aren't perhaps making the wisest choice
Perhaps you'd care to elaborate?
I want some life experience in the pilots world and some flight experience before I turn up at an airline
Many don't.
Maybe this will give me the chance to be offered a TR as well, instead of thinking I can buy it as some god given right.
Good luck with that but the truth is that buying a Type Rating and P2F is sadly the only way many will stand a chance of employment.

holding4release said:
I've worked hard in my sector and built a life for myself, got a house a wife and a son! But I still find myself tormented by my career choice every time I see another plane jump off the runway and break through the clouds.
I would read as much as you can on these pages, learn from others experiences and think hard about timing - this is an industry where timing is king when it comes to finding the first job. Think very hard indeed about giving up what you have to pursue a dream that, although attractive now, may not yield the return on investment as you, or your young family would hope or indeed need.


Enjoy your PPL training though, it is often said to be the best flying you will ever do.

[seen_the_box]

I'm going to leave it after this, because it's not worth arguing with you quite frankly. However:

Wow, are you sure you fly? Your attitude is quite poor.

As I previously stated (and as is pretty obvious from my posting history) I am a current pilot, Captain on the A320. I'm also a former cadet, and in my current role fly with cadets on a pretty regular basis. I am, therefore, at least a tiny bit qualified to comment on the subject at hand.

You are a PPL trainee, who has chosen to comment on something you've neatly demonstrated you know absolutely nothing about. I asked you to elaborate on why the airlines who have been putting cadets into airliners for decades have somehow got it wrong. To be fair, it was something of a rhetorical question. You are clearly unable to do that, as you lack even the most basic experience and knowledge required to make an educated comment on the topic. The problem is that people who are looking for information with a view to starting their career may read and believe your ill-informed nonsense.

I have to question why you think Australia is a non starter for a fully qualified commercial pilot?

The merest bit of research, would show you that it is a non-starter. (http://www.visabureau.com/australia/pilot-jobs.aspx)

Pilots are no longer on the Australian Skilled Occupation List (SOL), so are no longer eligible for Australian skilled migration.

[seen_the_box]

This occupation is listed on the Consolidated Sponsored Occupations List (CSOL).

Which is only relevant if you can somehow get your visa sponsored by the government. Which will never happen. The relevant bit is:

Pilots are no longer on the Australian Skilled Occupation List (SOL), so are no longer eligible for Australian skilled migration.

You are very naive and ill-informed.

[Reverserbucket]

Equally James, I can give you an example of someone I know personally who, following a few years as cabin-crew saved enough to obtain a PPL whilst working then secured an 85K loan and enrolled on an integrated CPL/IR with MCC/JOC (sometimes referred to as a 'frozen' ATPL) course. This student struggled and the costs increased. Eventually made it through training and couldn't find an airline job so worked in Tanzania or somewhere similar on the C208 for a few years, earned very little money, but demonstrating passion and ambition to prospective airline employers. Except, no one was interested and after five years, managed to get another loan and paid for an A320 type-rating and enrolled on a P2F scheme with an EU low cost operator.

An airline will respect you more for a). being current on a type they operate when they need pilots, b). able to pay for a type-rating and possibly line training if not rated and at an ATO of their choice, c). prepared to pay a bond to cover costs incurred in training if rated but not current, or d). prostitute yourself for low pay and poor T's & C's for a probationary period whilst they 'help' you achieve your dream.

If you're concerned about the return on your training investment, you should seek an alternative career path.

[gfunc]

Mate, more realism - forget all about Australia. Shake a tree and several hundred 200 hour CPL MEIR holders with will tumble out.

GA in Oz is moribund with a bunch of fresh faced wannabes being pumped in at the bottom (thanks to the student loan system and flashy advertising from the schools), with no movement in the airlines picking up people from the top.

Last year when I was finishing up in Oz a couple of jobs came up driving a Stationair around the GAFA doing some form of survey work, allegedly they got several hundred applicants and I was told the people selected had several thousand hours.

I'm sorry if this sounds insulting (it's not supposed to!), but as someone who has gone through the whole Aussie migration process, I can tell you that you are being naive. You're looking at the wrong list to start with - the consolidated list is those occupations which can be offered a 457 temporary visa if employer sponsored, and a case can be shown to the gov that no Aussie with the same skills is available. Try this (https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-and-assessing-authorities/skilled-occupations-lists/SOL) one instead (notice no pilots on that one!). The Aussies are very picky about who they take, especially now their economy is not so hot, so unless you or you partner can get sponsorship from an employer be prepared to spend a lot of time and money to join the end of a very long queue of unemployed pilots.

G

[jamesgrainge]

Hi gfunc, thanks for the input and help? I feel the Oz issue is being somewhat over impressed here. I was certainly made aware that you could apply for an agricultural visa for a year or wherever their labour is short and then after a year apply for a permanent visa. Fortunately as I say I have two qualifications on that list and my GF is a secondary teacher so hopefully we have the bases covered?

May I ask what it is you fly now and how you came to be in OZ?

Also do you have any suggestions for how to go about this, as I get alot of people saying this or that and this wont work on PPR, would really love some help on how me and the OP are supposed to do this.

[Dct_Bombi]

Ahh lads cut the guy some slack.. In just one thread I have been reminded of these forum battles that are just plain tiresome for most and just drive people away, I am most definately crawling back to my couch now.
In most crew rooms just be polite or walk away usually works a treat.
Patience can easily be strained on this medium of communication so bear with it, and for the newbies Id suggest use both ears and one mouth accordingly.

[jamesgrainge]

Good morning all.

Firstly I want to say thankyou to everyone who does help and offer comments, Syntax is right, it is excellent that people with such experience take the time to read and help us newbies who don't know very much generally.

Secondly, I have to apologise greatly to anyone who I have offended or angered with any of my comments and opinion. It is my intention to be as nice as possible to everyone here and soak up some of the amazing mass of knowledge. I hope that at the very least (in the most part) I have been respectful to the individual. I have no chip or disrespect to anyone who flys, it is after all my passion and dream to also fly up there with you. Because of this I have taken my posts down where I was misinformed/wrong and would like to start again if everyone would give the opportunity?


My personal feeling (at this precise moment) is that if/when I acquire my CPL I would like some more experience, flying anything and everything for some cash if I can, to see what the world has to offer, not necessarily an airliner instantly. I would feel underprepared I think taking the responsibility of 100's of lives in my hand as my first flying job. This is not to discredit anyone who can do this, full respect for that, I just like to know I'm capable before I take things on. If anyone can tell me any countries/continents that have a large GA sector that I could train with for a few years on turboprop or the like, I'm not a particularly good teacher so instruction probably wouldn't be an enjoyable start point for me.

[Reverserbucket]

Anyone else here get the impression that one person is posting under another (or possibly more) usernames?

[jamesgrainge]

Anyone else here get the impression that one person is posting under another (or possibly more) usernames?

Me?? I can assure you I have only the one profile, I don't know what the benefit would be for me to have more? Why would you suggest that?

[holding4release]

I don' get a chance to check on here very often and kind of assumed my post had died on it's feet after the first few days.

What I love about this Forum is the wealth of knowledge and experience from professionals that care to read a long guffing post from a mere wannabe like me. So thank you to everyone who did just that when they probably had better things to do!

I found all input very helpful as it's good to be realistic when making potentially reckless decisions.

I completely agree with @average-punter about not just relying on technical ability in order to land a job as I've said on another thread before. In the Agricultural industry today it's all about showing your responsibility for the business you work for because margins are so tight. Even as the guy on a tractor you need to be aware of what actions make money and which ones loose money. I've taken that with me. In addition I can't think of a job I've done where teamwork, task management and clear responsibilities haven't been vital so if nothing else I've got that going for me.

Reading everyone's posts has only compounded my thinking that I need to take my training one step at a time, add as much variation as possible and enjoy each step for what it is. I ultimately want to fly and I count myself fortunate that (with some saving) this is a possibility for me. Being paid to do it every day of my life will be a bonus! I take on board the FI option as I think that would suit me well!

I have a question for @Syntax Error...

Expect first job to be outside the UK, and you will need to commute unless you bring your family with you.

...don't most airlines require you to live within 90 minutes of your base or is that only while on standby?

As for James G I'm not sure what he said to ruffle feathers but I've appreciated his input as much as any. I'm aware of his experience level and position and so I can take is advice as such. It's good to have someone in a similar situation to relate to. I would hope in a cockpit emergency the Cpt would take a good idea if he saw it, regardless of the experience level of the person delivering it? (perhaps i'll learn different when I do mcc ;)).

Finally @ Dct_Bombi

I am most definately crawling back to my couch now.

Please don't stay on the couch for too long! These places can be painful sometimes but remember it's often the silent readers that benefit the most. I'm certainly grateful you took the time!