Foreign Licence Conversions - Good news!

[Clive Hughes]

PLEASE NOTE! a CAA policy change on 30 Jan 01 now requires all foreign (ICAO) PPL or CPL holders with an IR rating on their foreign licence to complete a FULL approved training cpourse for a JAA IR. See: www.srg.caa.co.uk. (http://www.srg.caa.co.uk.) This means gaining a foreign (e.g. US, Australian, NZ, South African, Canadian) IR will no longer exempt you from completing a FULL JAA IR course - this, therefore, negates the value of such a foreign rating. Only exemption is for foreign ATPL holders with over 500 hours on type of aircraft used for JAR-FCL Skill Test.

[Hot&Heavy]

Clive,

there's a thread on this a bit further down. You may be interested in Alex Whittingham's comments if you are converting...

Cheers, H&H

[Ham Phisted]

H&H

Assuming that he is "the" Clive Hughes, he has absolutely no need whatsoever to convert anything.

Sir,

Your book was, and probably still is, splendid and inspired me to get off my backside. Many thanks.

HP

[Day Dreamer]

Do you think they'll do the same for the CPL as well?

[4144r]

Hi Clive,
what are the aircraft used for jar-fcl skill test? (about atp holder with 500h)
Thanks

[rolling circle]

The 'JAR-FCL Skill Test' Referred to is, in fact, the ATPL Skill Test which must be taken on an aircraft certified for multi-crew operation. An ATPL with hours only on light singles/twins doesn't count.

So, get yourself a type rating on a B737/A320/etc. or do the full JAA IR course. Chances are this will be extended to the CPL, and all other courses as the JAA become even more protectionist.

[Roadtrip]

Does this mean that the cost of getting IR'd for UK students will be going up??

[Clive Hughes]

Ham Phisted - Well, I am the author of the book so if that's what you are refering to thanks for the compliment.Best of luck with your aviation aspirations.

Day Dreamer- At present it seems that exemptions from the FULL JAA CPL course will still be given to foreign ICAO CPL holders. I hope to get a definitive answer on this and its continuation from the man in charge of JAA implementation when he comes back from holiday next week.

Roadtrip - Not necessarily but the cost is always dependent upon demand so opportunist schools may take advantage of any increased demand.

Rolling Circle - thanks for the expanded explanation which I omitted.

[BE20]

Sir, I am not familiar with you or your work but you seem to know what you are talking about. What will it cost someone to do this? This seems absolutely silly. IFR is IFR, and someone with real world IFR experience should not have to "RE DO" there IR. I am not super experienced, but have over 1000 hours in a 2 crew, multi turbine, IFR environment. I assume half the guys doing the teaching would have less experience. This seems very ironic.This issue may close the door on myself coming to Europe to work. Any way around this? Any other comments? Will they change there ways when they see how wrong this is? I have no problem with exams and flight tests. But burning expensive gas for no reason????? I am Canadian by the way. Cheers.

[Ham Phisted]

BE20

Top tip: buy his book. He doesn't work for free! And it is worth the money. ;)

HP

[rolling circle]

BE20 - If at least 500 hours of your multi-pilot time is in an aircraft certificated under FAR 25 or FAR 23 and you meet the remaining requirements of JAR-FCL 1.280, you can by-pass the requirement for the IR Skill Test by gong straight for ATPL issue.

However, and there's always a however, you will still have to pass all of the theoretical knowledge examinations and the ATPL Skill Test. There is no mandatory ammount of training required for the ATPL Skill Test, provided that you have a current type rating and at least 500 hours logged on the type to be used for the skill test. If you do not have that type experience you will have to complete an approved type rating course.

The problem is that the aircraft used for the Skill Test must be a type certificated for a minimum crew of two pilots under IFR, as listed in AMC-FCL 1.220, part B, which does not include the BE20.

If you do not meet the requirements for the issue of a JAR ATPL then you will have to complete the full IR course, less the allowance for an ICAO CPL holder, totalling 45 hours for a single-engine IR or 50 hours for a multi-engine IR, and pass the IR Skill Test.

[flyingwigwam]

Been reading the threads re. the JAA's decision that pilots with foreign IRs will have to completely redo their ratings in a JAA state. What a complete load of BS.

I find it completely ludicrous that the JAA have decreed that although I hold a foreign IR, they consider my skills to be on a level with a pilot with no instrument training at all. When is the JAA going to stop moving the goalposts so that we can begin to plan our careers further ahead than the next ridiculous JAA decision?

I completed my IR training in South Africa and a lot of people consider the training out there to be among the best in the world -certainly more comprehensive from an academic point of view than the States.

What is next? Are doctors, lawyers, IT experts and other proffessionals going to be required to redo their qualifications from scratch before they will be allowed to work in Europe?

As for the JAA's stand that the weather conditions in Europe are different from the rest of the world: What a load of poppycock. If you can fly with sole reference to instruments, or conduct a profficient ILS approach you have attained these skills whether they have been gained in Africa, Europe or Australia. Of course they are differences, but that is the purpose of conversion training. Besides, everyone has to pass the same flight test so any shortcomings will be picked up at that stage.

In fact I believe that the conditions in many other parts of the world present greater challenges to Instrument Rated Pilots.

IMC approaches in Africa for one are often associated with severe turbulence and pilots out there are regularly confronted with Cb's unlike anything seen in Europe with associated hail, turbulence, lightning, freezing rain etc.

Besides, are the JAA about to stop IR training in Spain due to the fact that the weather conditions don't accurately reflect the conditions experienced in the rest of Europe. Pilots that have trained in places such as Western Canada or New Zealand have been exposed to weather every bit as muggy as that found in Europe.

I truly believe that if something isn't broke don't fix it. There is no evidence that pilots that have trained for their IRs overseas and then converted them to European ratings are any less safe than their counterparts who have completed their training in Europe. So what has changed?

It is about time the JAA admitted to the fact that a lot of the legislation being passed is simply thinly veiled protectionism aimed at protecting an uncompetitive industry.

Out of interest, does anyone know if the CAA will still issue an IMC rating on the basis of a foreign IR. From what I have been told this used to be pretty much a formality. It used to be the fact that if you held an IMC rating you were given credit on the training required for a full IR. Anyone know if this is still the case??


[This message has been edited by flyingwigwam (edited 21 February 2001).]

[Hot&Heavy]

Amen.

I had a rant about this a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure you & I won't be the last.

Maybe we should collectively be looking at ways of petitioning the JAA to change their policy on this. A huge job, but the only way to tackle it in my view or nothing will change.

Also, FlyingWW - do you have any credits at all under the old UK licensing system? It might not be all bad news if you have. Email me for details if you like.

Cheers, H&H

[robione]

If u hold a CAA IMC rating u will be entitled to a reduction from 55hrs to 43hrs training for the ir.This rating will have to be attached to your CAA License,and must be completed by the end of June 2002,u can then pay 128 pounds and have it transfered to your JAR/CPL,WHICH IS APPLICABLE TO MY CASE.

[Colonel Aureliano Buendia]

I am up the same creek ( Australian IR ).
Strange feeling to be passionate about something, but disgusted at the same time.
Strange industry.

[Hot&Heavy]

El Colonel,

why don't you arrange for some banditos to cut down the phone lines to the JAA, and then raid them with your federales shooting their pistolas?

Ole!

[Sensible]

If foreign IRs count for nothing, why are holders of these certificates allowed to fly in JAA States ie land at Heathrow? I haven't heard that the yanks have had any difficulty with our weather mind! :) :)

[Noggin]

robione,

the IMC credit is only for UK licence holders. If you have a JAA licence you have to do the full JAA course because the CAA cannot give you a credit against JAA requirements only UK ones. I suppose the plan is to add it to the PPL!

[This message has been edited by Noggin (edited 22 February 2001).]

[emu]

According to the FCL Policy Update a JAR CPL Holder with a CAA IMC Rating is eligible to a 5hr reduction of the JAR IR Course. (as opposed to the 12 hr reduction on the CAA IR)

[TooHotToFly]

emu - the 5 hour dispensation is for ICAO CPL holders, nothing to do with whether the person also has an IMC rating.

[Linda Mollison]

The CAA have now agreed to allow foreign Licence Conversions to do the following (rather than the full approved 50 hour course).

The pilot is required to do a minimum course of 15 hours of which 5 hours can be done in an FNPT 1 or 10 hours can be done in an FNPT II, plus additional hours at the descretion of the Flight Training Organisation, then the 170A and the Skill Test.

Our thanks should go to the Flight Training Policy Group who worked hard to bring this about.

This information is not on the CAA web site yet but, according to an e-mail I had this morning form the CAA, it should be there sometime today.

[Megaton]

Best news I've heard in a long time although some will not be happy that they've shelled out for the full course (how's life, Greaser?)!

From http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/whatsnew.asp

Policy Information/Update - JAR IR Training/Credits for ICAO IR Holders 21 June 2002

In our last Policy Update of 1st November 2001 it was stated that an ICAO licence holder with IR, who does not meet the JAR-FCL ATPL experience requirements, shall undergo a full approved training course for the issue of an IR. It was further stated that this policy was being reviewed. We have now received a response from a representative of UK training organisations and the following conversion requirements have been agreed and may be implemented with immediate effect:

“The holder of an IR, issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a non-JAA State shall, (subject to the notes below), complete all items of the appropriate JAR IR syllabus including at least 15 hours of flight instruction, of which 5 hours may be in a FNPT 1*, or 10 hours in a FNPT 2* or Flight Simulator*, plus any additional training considered necessary by the FTO, plus a 170A Flight Test and a JAR IR Skill Test.”

NOTES:
* Such synthetic training device shall be appropriately approved.
The holder of an ATPL(A) or CPL(A)/IR issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 who meets the 1500 hours flying experience requirements on multi-pilot aeroplanes (as PIC or co-pilot) of Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.015 may be exempted from the requirements of the IR(A) modular course prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations and the IR(A) Skill Test.
Other exceptional cases should continue be referred to the CAA.
These credits shall remain subject to review in discussion with the JAA and representatives of UK training organisations.

[jason_beall]

Forgive my ignorance as I am noew to this. Whats the spec on an FNPT 1 and 2? Anyone know who would have such simulators? I am assuming these are fixed base simulators. -Jason

[Grivation]

A good, fair, safe and common-sense change. Well done!!

[Julian]

Its been a long time coming but common sense has prevailed.
Saved me a few quid on my IR anyway :)

Julian.

[Buzzy]

Having read the notes at the bottom, it seems unclear to me whether this only aplies to those who meet the JAR ATPL hour requirements already!? Does anyone know any different?

[redsnail]

Darn it, just when I am about to finish my rating off...... :(

[G-SPOT is Back]

Notizie grandi, ora tutte che wannabees possiate addestrare in Italia piena di sole per la vostra nuova autorizzazione di JAA ;)

[englishal]

Very good news indeed...

EA

[Canadiankid]

Wow, that is the best news I have seen in a while. Kudos to the folks who made it happen. Can anyone tell me if you have an ICAO ATPL do you have to do the JAA CPL flight test or just the ME/IR. Second question. Is there 2 rides for the ME/IR and what are they?? Thanks.......

:D :D :D :D

[Splat]

Without wishing to be shot down as I think that this is a common sense change of regs, can I ask the question in the Wannabe's forum, does this mean that there will be more qualified (foreign) pilots in the queue for UK jobs?

Just a thought

S

[Grivation]

I think the 14 exams is still the major stumbling block for most foreign pilots converting. Most guys and girls I know wouldn't give up a job to spend 6 months studying again.

There will be at least one more pilot in the UK job line though. HeHe!

[GonvilleBromhead]

Good news. Just out of interest, what are the UK FTO's views on this ? Forgive possible ignorance, if guys in future go the route of obtaining FAA IR's and converting, would this not seriously affect them ? Will "traditional" IR courses still be viable to be run or will we see the gradual disappearance of it ?

[Linda Mollison]

First of all, apologies. I should have specified the 50 hour IR course, not just the 50 hour course.

To answer some of your queries:

Jason_beall:

To answer your questions in general terms.

Both FNPT 1 and FNPT 2 are fixed base simulators An FNPT 1 is a basic device with simple systems and no visual, roughly replicating a class of aircraft. An FNPT 2 is somewhat more sophisticated in its systems and includes a basic visual.

Basically most FTOs have one type or the other these days. The FNPT 2 usually has more credits allowing you to do more training in the simulator (hence the 10 hours compared to the 5 hours in the new minimum course hours for the IR course for ICAO to JAA IR conversions).

Buzzy:

No, Those who meet the JAR ATPL requirements are exempted even the 15 hour course. This new minimum 15 hour course is for those with a non-JAA CPL/IR or ATPL who do not meet the JAR ATPL requirements.

Canadian Kid:

I should have a look at the CAA website (www.caa.co.uk). Look under personnel licencing, flight crew licencing, GID 24 and 25.

This defines that you need to do the theroetical exams and training as required for the CPL plus the CPL SKill Test.

If you have a non-JAA multi rating you willl need to do a Multi Engine Piston Class Rating ( but no miniumum course hours) and the test can be done at the flight school - you do not have to go to a full-time CAA examiner for it.

The IR is then as specified above.

The GIDs have not yet been updated with the new rules for the minimum 15 hour course for the IR.

[The Greaser]

This is good news, a few months too late for me. Thanks Ham for reminding me!

The CAA only cost me an extra 10000 quid then - not too bad, thieving gits.

Good luck to all those 'converting' foreign licenses. At least an FAA IR is now considered somewhere above kindling.

[jason_beall]

This is good news. Makes me wonder what else is in the pipes for conversions?

[Julian]

Not sure but here is keeping fingers crossed!!!

As regards queues of foreign pilots I would have thought that the work Visa issue would be a problem, just as it is for us wanting to work in say the USA.

[javier]

Linda,

I still have my doubts. I have JAA ATPL written and CPL and want to get my IR. If I already have FAA CPL/IR ME, following CAA pages what I should have to do to get JAA IR?

I think that everybody would like to know this. Is there any FTO in UK doing this?

As JAA says you need +500 hours IR to get a reduced modular course to get JAA IR/ME rating. Has this changed?

thanks a lot for all your help.

javier

[Canada Goose]

This is excellent news !! :)

Linda, thanks for relaying this info to the masses ! I only found out about this on Friday afternoon (after sitting, and passing, my Instrument Rating written exam in the morning) as I have been too busy to visit the site in the last couple of weeks. It certainly made my day, no, that should be weekend !! I buzzed more off that than I did about passing my INRAT !! It's been worth the hassle.

Massive thanks to the guys and gals who have been pushing this one. Commiserations to those ICAO IR holders who have recently finished the full approved JAR IR !! I feel for ya !! :(

Cheers,
C.G. ;)

[Gin Slinger]

Can anyone shout me down for any of this? :-

1. JAR MEP required, but no minimum training hour requirement. Possibly for an experienced multi pilot just a skills test required.

2. ICAO IR get a reduction of 30 hours. Either 5 or 10 in the sim., depending on type.

3. The CPL - not clear. Does this require a minimum number of training hours? If not, then maybe just a 170A then a GFT. If an approved course is required, do after IR for a 10 hour reduction to 15 hours.

Conversion costs? Can anyone hazard a guess? I'll have a go:

Maybe £2750 for the IR, same for CPL and lets say £500 for MEP, plus £1128 for CAA skills test. Just over £7k plus licence issue fees. Anyone think I'm mile off?

[Gin Slinger]

arr....so we're saying there is a reduction offered on the JAA CPL?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thank you for the heads up Linda.

May the changes bring you floods of new students ;)

Cheers,

WWW

[gorky]

I do not think it will change the flood of student.
Students already in the States would be interested to do a JAR/FAA license in same time.I think more guys will convert.I have thousand hours and now it's a good time for me to do the JAR.

[SPRINTING RABBIT]

So Gorky, finally you accept that JAA is the way ahead....its good to see you have reached your senses.
As for reading this marvellous news.....mmmm, what can I spend the extra 7000 on? Thats an awful lot of watermark paper for my CV writing!
Thanks Linda and here we go!

[gorky]

I think the FAA is the way ahead with a small JAA convertion at the end.
ah ah, the CAA reaches their sens finally.It was just a question of time.
I ma very happy to hear that the monopole on training is over.
now EU schools will have to compete with non JAA schools and prices will start to decrease.
:)

[zerograv]

Javier

Wouldn't you be able to abtain a JAA IR in Spain (just a thought).
Spain is nowadays JAR or am I wrong?


Linda

Thanks for spreading such pleasant news,

Zerograv

[javier]

Zerograv

Yes, I can obtain it here, doing a modular course and 7.000$ (25 hrs sim, 15 hrs seneca, 15 hrs arrow). and thanks God I have my ATPL written so I don´t have to do the theory. But with 1600 hrs flight time most of them IR would be great to get JAA IR without spending all that money.

Does anybody know where I have to talk to for obtaining JAA IR on UK? would be great

javier

[foghorn]

Gin Slinger,

As far as I am aware (and I'm digging through the documents now), CPL conversion from ICAO to JAA has always been a case of training at the discretion of the FTO, then a 170A then GFT, no change there.

cheers!
foggy.

[Gin Slinger]

foggy - yes, thanks. Found that snippet of info too. Just never looked for it before because I knew that previously conversion of an FAA IR was a no no. Now that particular spanner in the works has gone, various new vistas are opening up...

[Airbus Girl]

It also looks like, if its cheaper, you could do the FAA single engine IR plus a private multi rating and then come back to the UK, do your required hours of multi IR training, take the twin test then the IR test.
Could be cheaper.
Excellent news on the conversion, at last common sense has prevailed.

[BillieBob]

The answer is - No. The state in which you complete your training is, by definition, your State of Licence issue. It is possible to complete part of your training in one state and complete it in another (i.e. to change your state of licence issue) provided that both states agree. However, if you have completed all of your licence training in one state, you cannot get the licence issued in another.

Where JAA member states approve training organisations in other (non-JAA) states, those organisations are considered, for licencing purposes to be in the approving state. So, should you complete your training, for example, in the US, the state of licence issue will be whichever JAA member state approved the organisation.

JAR-FCL 1 (and 2 for that matter) still says that training outside member states is restricted to all or part of the ATPL integrated course and some states (notably France) will not accept such training as being valid for a JAA licence or rating.

[BillieBob]

What about it?

a. It's been withdrawn and incorporated into JAR-FCL

b. It's exactly what I wrote above -

In circumstances agreed by both Authorities, an applicant who has commenced training under the responsibility of one Authority may be permitted to complete the requirements under the responsibility of the other Authority.

In the example that you quote, you will have completed all of the requirements under the responsibility of one Authority.

[JeroenC]

Hey,

I think I have already posted this, but I'll post it again.

My current situation is:
- PPL by UK CAA
- class 1 medical by Dutch IVW/DL, accepted by UK CAA
- working on Dutch ATPL, will be accepted by CAA.
- planning on doing ME IR CPL in Spain.

This is the reply I got from the CAA:


As you are currently the holder of a UK JAR-FCL PPL(A), the UK is the State
of Licence issue. You state in your e-mail that it is your intention to
train towards a professional licence in other JAA States. Firstly, you need
to establish who will be the State of Licence issue, the UK or another JAA
State such as Spain or the Netherlands where you may well undertake your
training.
JAR-FCL 1.065 as detailed in LASORS mentions that training and testing
completed in other JAA Member States may be allowable subject to a prior
agreement between the Authorities of the JAA Member States concerned.
However, some JAA States are still insisting that all requirements are met
in one State.

If the UK is going to be the State of Licence issue then we will generally
accept training and testing completed in other full JAA Member States
providing there is an agreement and that we are satisfied that ALL training
and testing is in accordance with JAR-FCL.
We have received other enquiries on this subject but mainly from individuals
who wish to complete their training in one other JAA State and not several
like you intend. I am assuming that you wish the UK to be the State of
Licence issue, therefore before you commence your training there are a
number of issues that you need to be aware of.

1. There is a procedure to convert your Dutch JAR-FCL Class 1 Medical
certificate to a UK issued JAR-FCL Class 1 as detailed on our medical
departments website, see link below.

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/med/default.asp?page=2576

2. If you intend to complete your CPL(A) modular course in Spain you will
need an agreement between the UK CAA and the Spanish Authority. We would
have no objection to this if we are the State of Licence issue but would
need written confirmation from the Spanish agreeing to this arrangement. If
you intend to complete your CPL(A) modular course in the US then this will
need to be at a JAA approved FTO, and not an FAA approved school.

3. If you intend to complete your ATPL theory in the Netherlands then again
if we are the State of licence issue, we would accept a valid pass in the
JAR-FCL examinations. We have an arrangement with the Dutch Authorities that
we will not require their permission, they are in agreement as long as we
are the State of licence issue.

4. The IR and ME will be classified as additional ratings once you have been
issued with a JAR-CPL(A) therefore these may be completed in any other fully
approved JAA member State. The MCC can either be taken as part of an JAA
approved type rating course for a multi-pilot type or a standalone approved
course.

As mentioned earlier, the above is based on the UK being the State of
Licence issue, however If you intend to have your licence issued by another
JAA Member State then an agreement will need to be made with those States
where you complete your training to ensure that they at the end of the day
be willing to issue your licence.

I hope that the above has answered your enquiry.

[JeroenC]

You might be right in that...

That's one of the reasons that I have the CAA as my registry issuer.

Is there not legal obligation for Belgium to live be the JAA regulations, being a JAR state?

Suc6!

[BillieBob]

The problem is that JARs are the Joint Aviation Requirements, not Regulations. Member states can only implement those requirements within the framework of their individual national law. Most member states, UK included, cannot implement certain elements of JARs because their national law prohibits it.

This will be solved, in the case of those JAA member states that are also members of the EU, when EASA takes over licensing issues (currently due in 2006-2007). JARs will then be enshrined in EU law, which takes precedence over national law, and all EU countries will be legally obliged to comply with all parts of the requirements (goodbye US training?). The downside is that the UK CAA will probably lose the flexibility it currently enjoys in implementing the requirements and wannabees will have to deal with faceless bureaucrats in Cologne instead of Gatwick.

However, EASA will only function in EU member states, a number of JAA states are not members of the EU and this is set to increase as many Middle East and South American countries are looking to join. In solving one problem, it is likely that many more will be created.

[Capt. Manuvar]

Sorry, if this question has been asked before (i've tried a search). I'm about to undergo FAA flight training (Comm/inst/multi) and would like to know if it possible to train on an FAA Pvt certificate issued on the basis of my JAA PPL. Thanks.
Capt M

[Keygrip]

Yes it is - provided you have a letter of authentication from the FAA dated within the last six months.

If you don't have a current letter - go through the authentication process again. One form to the relevant JAA authorities and one form to the FAA.

[spitfire747]

i was told by the officer in the Miami FSDO office that you cannot add additional FAA ratings, i.e. Instrument etc.. onto a FAA licence issued on the basis of a foreign ICAO licence, ie. i could not do a FAA instrument rating on my FAA Private that was issed against my JAA PPL.

He said i would need a full FAA Private (i.e. take the Private written, oral and flight test)

[Lasiorhinus]

Sort of true. You can do all the training you want provided you are licensed in America, but I would recommend heading back to your place of original license issue for the relevent flight tests and theory exams. Then they plop right onto your American license as well, without any additional paperwork (unless you change class, like PPL to CPL)

Oh, and it takes a while to get used to Americans calling licenses 'certificates'.

Lasior

[Keygrip]

What 'Spitfire' says WAS true, at one point - current theory from FSDO (at least in Orlando district) is to have a Certificate of Verification dated within the last six months.

Even if you've already been through the verification process - it must be dated within the last six months.

[WX Man]

Even considering that it may now be possible to add an IR onto a certificate issued on the basis of a foreign one, I still think that in order to have a multi IR you need a multi engine PPL or CPL.... which would involve either of these options:

1. Do private ME test and then ME IR training & test
2. Do SE IR training & test and then ME conversion (involves general handling (VFR) and approaches (IFR)).

For option 1, seeing as the private ME test is almost exactly the same as the commercial ME test, it might make more sense to do the commercial ME test (if you meet the relevant hours requirements under part 61). This is what I did about 2 months ago.

[trot]

cheers,

does anyone have recent experience with a 737 checkride with the caa in order to convert a foreign atpl into the caa atpl?

passed all my required 14 written exams, now i am at the crossroad to take a checkride with a caa inspector in a 737 sim.

any good advice on this.
- good and cheap simulator hours?
- does the sim need to be caa approved, or could i just have an inspector sit along on one of my companis' opc?
-do i need to provide a tre, or is the inspector a tre?
-do i need to provide the second pilot
- how long in advance do i need to book?

any share of made experiences greatly appreciated

cheers trot