RAF Scampton airshow.

[Al R]

Nice to have Waddington replaced with another so close, and in bomber county.

New air show to be staged at RAF Scampton in 2017 (http://thelincolnite.co.uk/2016/02/new-air-show-to-be-staged-at-raf-scampton-in-2017/)

[SX983]

Is there then a possibility that the based Hunters could participate-given that they are on the military register and therefore not subject to civilian restrictions?

[Finningley Boy]

As it is looks likely to be held in September, does that suggest that it may be a return to the traditional Battle of Britain 'at home' day?

FB:)

[Guernsey Girl II]

I wonder where the Manpower will come from?

I bet the fleet of coaches will have to leave about 4am as the roads will be murder in Lincoln, even with the easten bypass.:uhoh:

[Pontius Navigator]

I notice the name of the photographer in that article, I wonder if he is related to the Wg Cdr of the same name and Coningsby Vulcan infamy?

[Avtur]

I feel for the Waddington personnel; no doubt they will continue to be stiffed to provide the "manpower" with the now added buggeration of travelling through Lincoln. Not only will they have to travel at the weekend when the airshow traffic is likely to bring Lincoln to gridlock, but daily during the week or so before and after the event. It was a pain when at Waddington.

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC, Scampton was ruled out because of the poor road infrastructure. It is bad enough for the Lincolnshire show but Scampton appears much worse. How about establishing tent city for the volunteers running the show?

[Kitbag]

I feel for the Waddington personnel
Not just Waddington personnel, there'll be a CMLO tasking for every unit n the RAF to stump up people just as there has been to support the Waddington airshows.

[Valiantone]

Even if they start the single carrigeway Eastern bypass in the next few months as planned, I doubt it would be finished by September next year.

And seeing as they haven't even finished the short extension in the city which started in the summer from memory. I can't see it going fast, build wise

HHA have said before that they are no longer likely to use the Hunters for displays

V1

[salad-dodger]

Even if they start the single carrigeway Eastern bypass in the next few months as planned, I doubt it would be finished by September next year.

and definitely not if they use the same crew who are doing Waddington's runway :ugh:

S-D

[Finningley Boy]

Well presumably somebody knows what they are doing!?!:confused:

FB:)

[Guernsey Girl II]

FB
Do you want to bet on that? The Waddington Air Show staff are long gone to pastures new; What we have here is a case of multi star Mindless Optimism

[Pontius Navigator]

Nil desperandum, RIAT are running it.

Anyone remember the great air shows put on by RAF PR gurus at Abingdon and East Fortune? And before anyonre says they weren't great, they were, I just didn't say great at

[Chinny Crewman]

Is/are the runway/taxiways at Scampton in good enough condition to take anything bigger than a Hawk or will it be a flying display only?
Not a problem for rotary but the paying public do like to see a decent static.

[Kitbag]

Holding it at Leeming might be a better idea

[Finningley Boy]

Do you want to bet on that? The Waddington Air Show staff are long gone to pastures new; What we have here is a case of multi star Mindless Optimism

I'd have thought that those charged with approving such a venture will have taken stock of all the obstacles before making any public announcements. I understand that a chap very much at the centre of the organization of the Waddington airshow is likely to be involved. But really... it seems we're no longer a nation which understates matters, the more modern British dispositon these days seems to be to overplay, overstate and make a fuss, just as a handful of posts here seem to, you'd honestly think Scampton had long since had a Supermarket built on the main runway and the aprons into council housing the way some people doubt the suitability of an airfield no that much smaller than Waddington to stage such an event. The're having a Families Day there this Summer, would that not give some reassurance over just how disastrous a venue for holding an airshow it would prove to be? Also, don't forget, RAF Stations, which didn't regularly hold airshows, staged quite impressive events out of the Blue without any apparent difficulty. Binbrook, Coningsby, Waddington, Wattisham and Honington all during the 1970s and 1980s either started holding air days annually or held the one off, perhaps to celebrate a station anniversary or something, but they all worked and were quite major public events.

Here endeth the sermon, :oh:

FB:)

[Courtney Mil]

When I read the comments:

That the Station Commander would, "welcome an airshow on the base."

and, "this will not be possible until 2017..."

I had to wonder how long the current Staish had to run - yes, I'm an old cynic. But it looks like Mike Harrop only took over from Richard Turner last autumn - that's just from the dates on a few newspaper articles, so could be wrong.

I just wondered if it may have been a lovely leaving gift to the next poor bugger that would have to organise it.

[Wensleydale]

The 1970's/80's shows didn't have all the health and safety nause in the organisation of the event - money grabbers didn't try to sue for slipping on a few drops of water on a portable toilet floor and claiming bad backs etc....

[Guernsey Girl II]

FB

To add to Wensleydale's point,

I can understand your surprise at the apparent negativity displayed in some of the posts in this thread.

I know you have a deep understanding of the history of RAF air shows and no doubt lots of contacts in the air show world. So I'm a little more positive to hear the poss involvement of one of the old Waddington team.

The thing that concerns me is the 3 year gap between Waddington 14 and possibly Scampton 17. Let me explain why; it would be an understatement to say things have changed massively in terms of manning in the last few years on Stations, let alone since you left at the start of the 90s.

First let's call Cosford a special case as its a training unit and therefore has an excess of manpower and the 'output' of the Station can be totally focuses on the show when required.

The only reason that Waddington (and Leuchars) worked was that each Sqn and Flt had little 'empires' to run. From year to year manpower changed in each section but that corporate knowledge was passed down as the vast majority of the section saw how it worked, (or didn't), last year.

Scampton just don't have the staff for that so to my mind the Scampton 17 team have 2 options:

Chuck Manpower from all over at it and contractor out even more of the tasks, (in fact make it a mini RIAT).

Or get the rest of RAF Lincolnshire to pitch in to a far deeper level than just CLMO a few scores of airmen.

PS note the voices of reason/cynicism on this thread all have recent Waddo air show experiences to treasure.

[G-CPTN]

No doubt the regional ATC cadets will take care of selling programmes . . .

[Pontius Navigator]

Pros/Cons, I had not recent experience of air shows let alone running one. I had less than 12 months to get the show on the road. My OC Ops from his display circuit knew lots oif contacts and gave me invaluable guidance; it was a first rate show.

The Reds will have lots of experience of the good and bad and no doubt toiurex team members will volunteer to run things 😊.

A friend of mine was commercial manager at Waddo, he told me that the aiur show manager and he had both retired, not sure if both had been replaced. IIRC when Finningley started to use an ex-RAF professional manager the salary was around £30k. From a standing start where does a station get the money to pay the modern equivalent for a manager.

RIAT may be able to run both air shows with minimal additional staff. Never-the-less there are infrastructure costs, toilets in particular, traffic management, insurance, tentage, barriers, and then buying in the civil aerobatics.

I don't know how we ran the account at Coningsby or Waddo (pre-Finningley) apart from fingers crossed and as cheaply as possible. One bright spot, the dead hand of NAAFI has gone.

[RAFEngO74to09]

If the RAF Charitable Trust organize the show using the same modus operandi as RIAT at RAF Fairford, very little organizational responsibility will actually fall upon the permanent staff at RAF Scampton. At Fairford, the following applies:

RIAT negotiate their use of permanent facilities and equipment on loan (eg aircraft GSE).

RIAT source all requisite temporary infrastructure eg barriers, traffic cones, toilets, catering facilities for volunteers.

RIAT take over operational responsibility for the airfield and provide their own ATC personnel.

RIAT source volunteer ground support staff eg flight line & GSE personnel.

RIAT source emergency services by obtaining fire and medical assets from a variety of agencies including DFRMO and local authorities.

High profile vehicles eg airfield management and "Follow Me" are provided by industry eg Range Rovers (I'm guessing perhaps on free loan in return for advertising).

The security force for volunteer and contractor vehicle checking in the weeks prior to, during and after the event come from RAF Cosford (actually programmed into the annual course task).

There are many other considerations but you get the picture.

I would anticipate that it will be run as a commercial venture using the same business model as RIAT with admission charges set at a level that covers all the costs - including insurance which is considerable - and allows for a contribution to charity.

The Fairford RIAT model is well-established and planning for the next event starts as soon as the last one has been cleared up. With Scampton, they have to start from scratch so hence the 2017 at earliest date.

[airpolice]

RAFEngO74to09

I would anticipate that it will be run as a commercial venture using the same business model as RIAT with admission charges set at a level that covers all the costs - including insurance which is considerable - and allows for a contribution to charity.

A small contribution to charity.

[RAFEngO74to09]

airpolice,

True - and it would be even less if they got charged the going rate for everything they loan / get free by using "influence" and "precedent".

http://www.airtattoo.com/assets/pages/00000096/rafct%20-%20annual%20report%20201415_web.pdf

http://www.airtattoo.com/our-parent-charity/the-trust/how-the-money-is-spent/grants-2015-16

[airpolice]

I think the people doing the best out of the Airshow are the organisers rather than the charities.

No wonder they are keen to take on Scampton.


RIAT 2009 figures They got over 8 Million pounds in and disbursed £196,997 to Charitable causes.

RIAT certainly makes money for some people.

Less than 20 pence out of every 8 quid was distributed to service charities.


Facts and figures about RIAT.

Royal Air Force Charitable Trust Enterprises
Accounts for 2008-2009

From an income of over 8 Million pounds, the charity got 300 thousand.

Of which, less than 200 thousand pounds was given to the people we all expect to be getting the money. Still, the expenses were right up there in the good figures, so nobody missed out.

[Pontius Navigator]

What were the ticket prices for RIAT and Waddo?

I don't imagine Scampton will attract the corporate hospitality brigade, but who knows.

I just wonder if families in the Midlands would pay top dollar. Not having ever paid for an air show I don't know.

[Jobza Guddun]

Airpolice,

I would imagine that the losses incurred by the 2008 cancellation may have affected the 2009 accounts. The prediction for the 2015-16 donation is in excess of £700,000 so it's getting better!

FF

[Guernsey Girl II]

One bright spot, the dead hand of NAAFI has gone.

Now that's a point, this is the first air show setup since the introduction of the ISS 'closed shop'.

PN, if you think the NAAFI was a dead hand, you should see ISS at work.

[airpolice]

Job Title: Trust Director
Location: Fairford, Gloucestershire
Job Type: Permanent, Full Time
About Us:
We are a Charitable Trust that promotes the Royal Air Force, supporting its people now and into the future and encouraging air-mindedness and the aviation-related education of youth.

The Trustees award grants to those organisations and projects that they assess to be most worthy of financial support and most closely aligned to their charitable objectives.

About the role:
This is a strategic role which also includes the day to day management of the Trust's business. A key element of the role is to ensure that the Trust's activities are compliant with all relevant guidelines, including the Charity Commission and HMRC. The role will also involve acting as Secretary to the Board of Trustees and any sub-committees, whilst ensuring that Trustees are kept fully informed of Trust activity

What we offer:
We offer a competitive package of salary of £50,000 per annum, Company Pension, Death in Service cover, Private Medical Insurance and 20 days holiday (with additional days to cover the Christmas period and bank holidays).


Chairman
Mr Alan Smith FRAeS

Non-Executive Directors
Dr Jim Glover BSc DSc
Mr Colin Basnett CBE MA

Chief Executive
Mr Andy Armstrong

Directors
Mrs Caroline Rogers (Commercial Director)
Group Captain Chris Murray OBE (Director Operations and Company Secretary)
Mr Steve Gunyon (Director Finance)




So, over £350,00 a year in salaries for just the Directors.

Looks like a cushty number for some folk.


2011-12 2012-13
£ £
Incoming Resources
Commercial Trading Operations
Royal International Air Tattoo 6,152,663 5,982,202
Other Income 1,186,089 640,519
_________ _________
Total Incoming Resources 7,338,752 6,622,721
Resources Expended
Costs of Generating Funds
Promotional Costs (269,538) (251,658)
Commercial Trading Operations:
Royal International Air Tattoo (4,540,402) (4,076,465)
Other Expenses (2,546,866) (2,039,842)
Corporation Tax 9,781 0
Governance Costs: (53,723) (41,562)
Donation to Royal Air Force Charitable Trust 0 (213,194)
_________ _________
Total Resources Expended (7,400,748) (6,622,721)
Net Outgoing Resources for the Year (61,996) 0
Fund Balance Brought Forward 914,100 852,104
_________ _________
Fund Balance Carried Forward 852,104 852,104



Donation to Royal Air Force Charitable Trust £213,194.00

[RAFEngO74to09]

PN,

Here is the tariff for tickets for RIAT Fairford 2016 - GBP 44.00 (Earlybird) - must be bought in advance - no tickets available at the gate.

Royal Air Force Charitable Trust Enterprises - Tickets and Upgrades (http://www.airtattoo.com/airshow/visiting/airshow-tickets)

In the overall equation of the economics of RIAT Fairford, I imagine they rake in a huge amount for the marquee enclosures taken by industry for hospitality. I too cannot imagine much of a market for that at Scampton which might have a knock-on effect on the ticket price for normal punters.

[RAFEngO74to09]

When I first had an occasion to speak to RAFCTE about RIAT, I was somewhat surprised to discover they had a gucci HQ for their permanent staff just down the road from the RAF Fairford Main Gate - complete with dining room and chef. They certainly don't slum it.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Douglas_Bader_House%2C_Geograph.jpg

[G-CPTN]

When I first had an occasion to speak to RAFCTE about RIAT, I was somewhat surprised to discover they had a gucci HQ for their permanent staff just down the road from the RAF Fairford Main Gate - complete with dining room and chef. They certainly don't slum it.

I guess they have to entertain guests during the organisational phase, and it would prove economical (in cost and time) to do this in-house rather than going out to hotels/restaurants - better for security, too.

[Blanket Stacker]

Only about one third of RIAT parking is now in a field. The rest is on airfield concrete.

[The Oberon]

They can pay themselves as much as they want, they can also provide all the required on site manning but as a local, Scampton village, it is painfully obvious that no thought has been given to what happens outside the airfield boundaries. The police make the best of a bad job when it comes to major events on the show ground but when you extend the area further north to cover Scampton you cannot use the same traffic pattern. In addition, 3 sides of the airfield boundary are open to the non paying fraternity via tracks across open fields, non of which have public footpath status. This means cars parked up on B road verges whilst their occupants cram round the fences leaving tons of rubbish when they leave. In short, too many "naughty areas" and all the problems involved. I really don't see the point of it all. In it's later years, Waddington was a large, cheap and nasty fun fair/boot sale with a hand full of aircraft thrown in. I saw F117, B1 and B2 in the past but nothing interesting for years.

[Geordie_Expat]

In it's later years, Waddington was a large, cheap and nasty fun fair/boot sale with a hand full of aircraft thrown in. I saw F117, B1 and B2 in the past but nothing interesting for years.



Sadly, Leuchars was going the same way before it all folded. The flying displays (with some notable exceptions) became almost a sideshow.

[Pure Pursuit]

When I read the comments:

That the Station Commander would, "welcome an airshow on the base."

and, "this will not be possible until 2017..."

I had to wonder how long the current Staish had to run - yes, I'm an old cynic. But it looks like Mike Harrop only took over from Richard Turner last autumn - that's just from the dates on a few newspaper articles, so could be wrong.

I just wondered if it may have been a lovely leaving gift to the next poor bugger that would have to organise it.

Mike has been CO since summer 14.

[Pontius Navigator]

RAFEngO, thank you. That is one huge expense for an open air event subject to weather. As I said, I have never paid to attend an air show as I have either participated, worked at, or organised.

As Oberon has said, the shows are becoming pretty flat with fewer and fewer military types to call on and stretched budgets fior the international display teams. September might be a bonus if the dates tie in with hosting a major NATO exercise.

The Reds might also be able to call in some favours.

[Krystal n chips]

" this will not be possible until 2017 "

I suppose it's just one of those "happy coincidences " then, that the first event is scheduled to take place..... one year prior to a certain centenary year.

Hence the chance to get the bugs sorted out before the celebrations commence .

[airpolice]

I guess they have to entertain guests during the organisational phase, and it would prove economical (in cost and time) to do this in-house rather than going out to hotels/restaurants - better for security, too.

That sounds very familiar.

We can spend a load of money on marketing and charitable donations, and if we do it through this lot, we can have a few slap up lunches and some entertainment thrown in. That's a good deal for us, and it's much more tax efficient than taking the PAYE & NI hit on the money and spending our own cash on lunches.

Let's just start a huge business, allegedly to make money for a charity, but spend almost all of the revenue on ourselves.

I wonder how much less, if any, would be collected by asking spotters to pay for limited access at the remaining airfields. All year round airshows, no manning costs and no traffic issues for the locals.

Are there 2,000 serious spotters in the UK? Including terrorists and foreign spies?

We could knock up an access area at each airfield. Like Waddo has but better, and sell annual memberships for £100 which allows you into any site.

Same money for the Charity, without the hangers on getting a nose in the trough.

[Pontius Navigator]

AP, and for the rest s huge car boot sale flogging off bits of aircraft, out of date maps etc

Oh, forgot, that's what we didv at Finningley, grot bag £1, contents free.

[Courtney Mil]

Mike has been CO since summer 14.

Thank you. Interesting that newspapers were still quoting him as Staish up to late last year. But does that mean I was right to be sceptical? No, only joking.

[Martin the Martian]

airpolice said:

Let's just start a huge business, allegedly to make money for a charity, but spend almost all of the revenue on ourselves.

I wonder how much less, if any, would be collected by asking spotters to pay for limited access at the remaining airfields. All year round airshows, no manning costs and no traffic issues for the locals.

Are there 2,000 serious spotters in the UK? Including terrorists and foreign spies?

We could knock up an access area at each airfield. Like Waddo has but better, and sell annual memberships for £100 which allows you into any site.

Same money for the Charity, without the hangers on getting a nose in the trough.

I suspect they'd bite your hands off for the chance. And yes, there are certainly more than 2,000 serious spotters in the UK -excluding terrorists and foreign spies.

I think perhaps the organisers could take a leaf out of the French Air Force's book with regard to how they do this new event. Their events are superb, with excellent flying and static displays, put the aircraft front and centre, and don't cost more than a few Euros -if at all.

[Wensleydale]

Did I see that they were looking at a September date for Scampton? If so then the accommodation may prove difficult...Waddington used Lincoln University which had free rooms in June/July after the end of final term. If the same solution is sought by Scampton then the date will have to be early September in order to have the room ready for the start of the Academic year. Joy therefore for the rent a crowd from the local RAF Stations who will have their block leave ban for 2 weeks before the show - right in the School summer holidays. Never mind - some personnel can always have their leave in the middle of School time - they won't get fined too much for taking kids out of school.

[vulcanxl426]

What really makes me chuckle is that after waddington airshow finished people was screaming for another local airshow .
Now this is happening and it has come out that the RAFCTE \ RIAT is organizing the show people seem not to happy about it also looking to see the figures that RIAT actually make .

To me this is just picking fault in the company and lets be honest they do have somewhat of a good run running a airshow every year without going under we all must obviously know that running a airshow is not a cheap thing to do considering they have done it for over 30 years .

I say good luck to them and I hope they make it work .

Also personally some of the RAF guys need to do there home work as do they forget where most of the money the RAFCTE goes . I know for a fact a lot of it goes back to the RAF to help wounded service men women, also a current plan is to install WiFi to alot of accommodation in the RAF I believe this is including RAF Cyprus . Albit its not a million being donated every year it is still something .

The comment about how the RAFCTE base looks is completely stupid yes they have a building were the offices are based and yes a meeting hall with a kitchen , also has a warehouse so what they need somewhere to run there operations . I'm also lead to believe that the land was donated by the USAF \ RAF to build there HQ , some people on here really need to wake up and smell the coffee .

Rant over