NEM - SFA Charge Increase

[Could be the last?]

For those of us that are in ground tours and living in SFA, I was wondering if there had been any shockers wrt the increase in charges wef 1 Apr? And if anyone had received good gen on challenging the CAAS banding?

[Kitbag]

I guess if the service level goes up, ie repairs and maintenance done promptly then it's not too hard to stomach, the rises are meant to be be in stages I think. However if the standard of service is anything like an RAF station near here, accommodation and mess kitchens without hot water for over a month now, it could be another straw on the camels back.

[alfred_the_great]

I've gone down by about 18% if it is any help?

[PostMeHappy]

Think it something like 50/50 between likely increase and stay same/decrease....but some of the increases could be eye watering..appeals process pretty straightforward and all on CAAS letters going out to all SFA...even a blank challenge template on DII...used it this week

[Pontius Navigator]

Appeal is easy, winning something else. SiL won a downgrade but took near his whole tour to do so. Essentially you are alleging someone didn't do their job properly.

[Stuff]

Essentially you are alleging someone didn't do their job properly.

I spend hours on the phone to Carillion-Amey on an almost weekly basis telling them in no uncertain terms that they aren't doing their jobs properly. It seems to be water off a duck's back to them.

[NRU74]

Any chance of someone telling us what NEM/SFA/CAAS/DII/SiL mean ?

[Courtney Mil]

If you don't know the terms, it probably doesn't apply to you so you don't need to worry. It's a terms and conditions thing that people came here for advice about, not really to air in public.

[NRU74]

Courtney,
Precisely, presumably these serving guys have intranet etc, and if it is 'not really to air in public' they (perhaps) shouldn't !

[Courtney Mil]

Perhaps not, but sometimes the guys might need to be outside the wire.

I wasn't criticising you, but if it's a thread that doesn't interest us why don't we leave them to it?

[GalleyTeapot]

It is mind numbingly boring given that it's absolutely nothing to do with aviation.

However some of us aren't entitled to Famlies Quarters for our famlies and have always had to pay full market prices to rent a house in the private sector or buy a place not necessarilary where we might to. Even if your quarter goes up by 18% you are still getting a bloody good deal.

[Willard Whyte]

Even if your quarter goes up by 18% you are still getting a bloody good deal.

Anyone who's actually lived in a quarter will know that it really isn't a good deal at all. Well, not unless you have a penchant for mouse sh*t in the kitchen and black mould in the bedrooms.

[Melchett01]

Essentially you are alleging someone didn't do their job properly.

Unfortunately seems to be par for the course these days in many facets of Defence. But as I'm discovering, the notion of holding to incompetents account when they balls up what they've been employed to do isn't something we do particularly well.

[SirToppamHat]

Even if your quarter goes up by 18% you are still getting a bloody good deal.

If I were here long enough, the rent on my FQ would be increasing by 300% (£3,427 PA). Which is to say that the difference between what my FQ was assessed at about 2 years ago and what they think it is now will take 7 years to catch up. The only 'good' thing is that the rent will be going up by one band per year until it catches up - unless I am posted, in which case there is no brake on the increase and I go straight to whatever the full rent is for my next FQ.

At the moment my FQ is Grade IV, which apparently equates to CAAS Band H, but under the CAAS assessment it has mysteriously risen to Band B.

My pay, of course, has been going up by 0.6% after tax. In actual terms, the pay goes up by £360 PA, whilst the cost of the FQ goes up by £3,427 PA. In effect, for no change in quality, no increase in levels of service (still waiting for a part for the boiler which was allegedly ordered in Nov 15) and no improvement in available facilities, I will be paying an EXTRA £3,067 PA.

The generally lower cost of service housing is, or was, part of The OFFER, which our VSOs are so obsessed with when they bemoan the inability to retain or recruit. Well my OFFER is reducing massively and I would be amazed if I am alone in that.

I don't believe this is making things better or even fairer for the vast majority of the military. Oh and as for incompetence, people on this patch do not all have the same assessment of amenities and we already know that our FQ has been over-assessed and will be challenging it.

STH

[Melchett01]

STH,

Good luck with the challenge. As PN noted correctly, appealing is one thing, winning another.

I was in JHC HQ a couple of tours back, just as it moved from Wilton to Andover. They suddenly realised they didn't have a big enough Mess for a 4* and 2* HQ on the same site and proceeded to chuck up a couple of SLAM blocks. All was fine until the Garrison HQ noticed that the proximity of the West Coast train line was such that the grading was too high, and that when taken into account alongside all the other factors the shiny new SLAM blocks weren't actually grade one.

And what do you think happened to that case??? Correct, politically too embarrassing, case dismissed carry on overpaying :ugh: If there is any choice about living on base these days or living in my own home, well there's just no choice and I genuinely do feel for those stuck on base full time without the prospect of weekend parole to civilisation.

[Al R]

From this morning's Soaraway Sun.

Squaddies in squalor: We expose the homes not fit for Army heroes (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6931216/Sun-investigation-exposes-squalid-and-unsafe-housing-for-Army-families.html)

[Jumping_Jack]

I'm in grade 4 accom that has just been 'Up banded' almost doubling the rent. The reason that the Carrillion Amey service is identical to or worse than Medieval Housing Solutions is that they are using identical staff and contractors.
Strangely the lettet telling me that my rent would be increasing due to up banding came about 3 week BEFORE they surveyed the house for condition.....:ugh:
BUT, IT ISN'T A MONEY MAKING EXERCISE!!

[GalleyTeapot]

To be fair mice can get into any house and isn't the fault of the housing folk, put some traps down.

So rent goes up by , apparently 300%, making an extra £3400ish per year. This means you are currently paying peanuts (and have been for how many years?) and even with such an increase its still significantly less than market rate for rents in the private sector and still a bloody good deal. I'm not allowed a Famlies Quarter for my family so have always had to pay significantly more than those who are allowed quarters for their families. Whining about an increase that still makes your rent very cheap is beginning to fall on deaf ears. Look how much you would have to pay for something equivalent in the private rental market then try and tell me what a hardship it is paying for a quarter.

[Pontius Navigator]

Melchett, quite, that was one of my SiL s points. They were about 300 yards off centerline about 3 miles out of the air field. Furthermore security shutters were confirmed by the manufacturer as non-security et etc

[Courtney Mil]

Sour grapes? Galley doesn't get SFA so he's glad the rent's going up for everyone else. Nice.

[alfred_the_great]

Sour grapes? Galley doesn't get SFA so he's glad the rent's going up for everyone else. Nice.

No, he said stop whinging about the fact you pay below market value for your/our rent. And it is getting tedious, and rather entitled.

My quarter isn't great, but I pay peanuts, and it's allowing me to stash quite a decent amount away for the day I leave the RN (and I don't get masses of RRP either). I presume many of those complaining are doing much the same. In the real-world, there are plenty of people renting who will have zero opportunity to save for their own place; from their point of view, the entire military sounds like it has 'sour grapes'.

although it could just be the PPRUNE usual suspects who want their RRP to triple with no return of service, and would still whinge they're being made to do an easy fitness test and deploy away from their homebase...

[switch_on_lofty]

I'm in a Type 5. Was Grade 2, about £285/month. Due to state of (dis)repair now lower grade and £186/month, despite being in a v desirable area of Hampshire (darling).
The service provided by Carillion Amey is rubbish with some acceptable aspects. Again last week a tradesman failed to arrive for a 6hr window which requires someone to be in.
Repeatedly I've had them round promising to raise jobs which then never materialise. Leaking garage (despite multiple "fixes"), mouldy bathroom, peeling render, leaking shed, kitchen and bathroom from about 1970, boiler that is so inefficient my utility bill has doubled since moving from my own VICTORIAN similar sized house with a modern boiler.
Would love to spend some time and money improving it but it's not mine.
I wasn't given a choice about moving to current posting and weekending is not an option.
So overall I consider SFA to be fair value and essential for family integrity given Service upheaval. I would happily pay more for better material state and service from contractors. But I don't get to choose (unlike a private tenant).

[kintyred]

Living on the patch is still pretty good value...even if the standard of accommodation is not brilliant. I lived there to enable me to buy some properties to let. I've got a 1 bed flat to let at the moment for £1200 a month if anyone's interested. The private sector might (but not always) be of a decent standard but boy do you pay for it.

[Unchecked]

Jesus Christ. Look at the pictures in that newspaper report. If you think that is acceptable housing for any human being, never mind UK armed forces personnel, no matter what the charge is, then I suggest you are part of the problem and, quite frankly, a bit of a dick.

[4everAD]

Well said Unchecked. Generally I believe that members of the Armed Forces get the fact that we are lucky to pay so little for our Quarters, that said the reason we pay so little is that on the whole they're not up to the standard of private rental properties. My quarter has a cooker that is so rusty that you can't see the dials to see which burner is which, we've been told it won't be replaced until the quarter is vacated! They actually have a new one sat in stores allocated but won't put it in. We have no thermal insulation (overseas property) so in winter the heating is on 24/7 costing us a fortune. I have absolutely no rights as I only have a "license to occupy" and I'm not classed as a tenant with all it's associated protection. Once a have a property that is on a par with private rentals and I have rights backing up my tenancy then I will happily pay more.

[Unchecked]

Well said Unchecked. Generally I believe that members of the Armed Forces get the fact that we are lucky to pay so little for our Quarters, that said the reason we pay so little is that on the whole they're not up to the standard of private rental properties. My quarter has a cooker that is so rusty that you can't see the dials to see which burner is which, we've been told it won't be replaced until the quarter is vacated! They actually have a new one sat in stores allocated but won't put it in. We have no thermal insulation (overseas property) so in winter the heating is on 24/7 costing us a fortune. I have absolutely no rights as I only have a "license to occupy" and I'm not classed as a tenant with all it's associated protection. Once a have a property that is on a par with private rentals and I have rights backing up my tenancy then I will happily pay more.

Thankyou. The fact is that our Lords and masters are prepared to send us to harms way, a stressful and worrying time for our devoted spouses and children as it is - but more and more those disrespectful cowboys at Carilion Amey are allowed to lump more grief and concern on those we leave behind. It is an absolute disgrace. Civilians may very well have to pay more, but do they have the same level of enforced stress and concern as our loved ones that get deserted on the latest whim of our politicians? I doubt it.

[BEagle]

I was very fortunate to have bought a house when I was first at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome - it cost £34000 plus £1000 for central heating and another £2000 for a garage, so the total was £37000. According to the BoE inflation calculator, today it should be worth £112623...

But the current figure is actually over twice that, thanks to 'buy to let' parasites and other speculators pushing up the prices.

Currently, a 2 bed semi in the charming town of Carterton costs around £825 per month to rent, so £285 for a Grade 2 Type 5 married patch house doesn't sound too bad to me.

Local prices in Oxfordshire are utterly crazy. Quite how a first tourist posted to Brize could ever afford to buy even the smallest house, I cannot imagine.

The 'London effect' has now reached Kidlington, ever since the excellent new train service to Bicester Village, High Wycombe and London Marylebone started up last year. I'm told that prices have already increased by 20%...:uhoh:

But no matter whether anyone considers the rental rate for service accommodation to be reasonable, the squalid state of some of those places in the Sun article is beyond any reason. Bring back Ministry of Works / Ministry of Public Blunders and Wonders / Department of Environment!

I recall a 4* telling us how even he'd been buggered about by the privatised crooks - "If that's how they treat people lucky enough to be at the top, God help those lower down" was his frank admission.

[Bob Viking]

You probably could have made your, good, point equally as eloquently without bragging about how much you made on the property in question. People of my generation are sick of hearing how much our forebears made on property.

If married quarters reflected local market rents I doubt anyone would ever get on the housing ladder. The days of a nice little house in the country as a pilot (and God help anyone who doesn't receive RRP) are sadly long gone.

BV

[BEagle]

BobV, I haven't made as much as a pig's blister on the house - I still live there. I don't know why you thought I was 'bragging'?

I detest the greedy speculators and 'buy to let' predators who have forced up house prices. When I was first at Brize, it was the 'yuppy' era and one particular Sqn Ldr was making a small fortune through his buy/tart up/ sell in the Sunday Times for silly money hobby. But as a trucky with an easy life, I guess he had plenty of time for that. I challenged him about the effect that he and his ilk were having on the price of houses. "So what", he said, "if that's what someone from London is going to pay, it'll do me!". Selfish sod! Another pilot unashamedly allowed the prospective buyer of his house to be gazumped - utterly no moral code.

The point being that ridiculous house price increases are making it completely impossible for normal people to buy anything in British West Oxfordshire, which is NOT something I endorse.

[Willard Whyte]

To be fair mice can get into any house and isn't the fault of the housing folk, put some traps down.

The ONLY house, out of a dozen I've lived in over the last 20 years, I've ever had mice in was a sh*tty OQ at Waddington.

No private let, or the two that I've owned, have had a sniff of a rodent. The fact is FQs are substandard, the cheap as chips rent up to the mid nineties was fair market value. It's smug little comments from your ilk that make me glad to live and work in the real world these days.

[Pontius Navigator]

History Lesson

In days of yore the AFPRB intended to set.ANA rates at local author council rate level. The rent for OMQ residents was to be set as average mortgage rates.

As a morgagatee would expect to offset his mortgage payments with value increase your OMQ resident should be set at zero.

[Courtney Mil]

I lived in Service Married Quarters virtually all my life until the age of 50 apart from a spell at boarding school and then in various Officers' Messes. For most of that time there was no choice.

I can offer this observation. In my childhood years, quarters were well kept and available as fully furnished, including cutlery et al. That was before Margaret Thatcher's military salary and rent was set at a reasonable level. My parents could afford to live there, but there wasn't much left to save towards eventually owning a house one day. And the standards remained that way for many years.

In the 80s and 90s it was starting to become a little more difficult to get a quarter and an allocation was not guaranteed, especially if you got a short notice posting (worse if you happened to be deployed when you got it). But the standards weren't that bad - depending on location and your local staff.

In 1996 the houses were sold to Annington Homes for peanuts and money started to get tight. Annington collected the rent, MoD paid for maintenance and the new owners could sell off empty quarters (so it was in their interests to keep quarters empty if they could).

From then on things went terribly badly down hill. I would say that living in married quarters became a bit of a nightmare. Trying to get repairs done, equipment fixed, help when you needed it was almost impossible at times. Work was contracted out to the lowest bidder who had no interest in doing a good job. Complaints were simply fobbed off. Whilst March outs were no longer white glove parades, there were an increasing number of reports of ridiculous charges for very minor faults - faults that were often overlooked or dismissed as unimportant during pre-March out.

At High Wycombe we discovered that our quarters had been over-graded for the past 10 years, but that there was no chance of a refund because it would be too difficult to track down former occupants and calculate refunds. Appeal was blocked at the highest levels. At the same time we were warned about the intent to start charging market rates - to the benefit of Annington Homes.

As I was leaving the RAF I saw quarters in their worst state ever, the service provided to occupants (not tenants) appalling and the charges starting to rise.

If they were to get the estate in proper order and provide a market standard service there might be some justification in reviewing rent. As things stand it is just becoming a ghastly rip off.

[Al R]

I can see the merit in suggesting that SFA are cheap and can be convenient. But toddlers don't care much about that. Annington of course.. the last Tory last hurrah before Blair took over.

Property these days, is an asset class and a weapon in any portfolio, and as such, should be as subject to as many of the vagueries as should equities, fixed interest etc. If a client invests in a paper portfolio, that doesn't really impact upon anyone else.

The young will be working until their late seventies/mid eighties unless we absolutely nail intergenerational unfairness once and for all.

[ORAC]

It is mind numbingly boring given that it's absolutely nothing to do with aviation. There was a Flight Safety film about that......

[MFC_Fly]

You know this forum is for military aviators right?
Well, to be pedantic, it's...

"A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment"

:=

[Selatar]

Whilst no fan of Annington, the state of the properties, be it mice or much worse has absolutly nothing to do with them. They cut a genius deal with the MOD where any upkeep, be it a new roof or lick of paint is the responsibility of the MOD. All they do is take a rent per property (whether occupied or not) and when the MOD release properties they flog them off. The deal where the money from sales was split between the MOD and Annington ended in 2011. Guess who gets all the money now! As I said a genius contract. Whilst they want the MoD to release properties (especially in the South East) They have no influence in that decision.

Rents are reviewed by Annington in conjunction with the MOD every 5 years compared with market rates (by region I think) and a discount applied (58%). Therefore the rent paid by the MOD goes up based on market rates. Such a review is just finishing I believe so fairly hefty increases have just come in.
Annington own 39,262 MOD properties as of 2015 and received 162M in rent from the MOD. That is an average of £343 per month per quarter. That's bill no 1.

The responsibility to maintain and update the properties of course is down to the MOD and is the source of bill no 2. That includes new roofs for a full estate to fixing a window (or not). This contract is worth 100s of millions a year and it's difficult to assess what the cost is per property but it's significant and is probably more than the rent per property. Anyone fancy a dive into DIO contracts please fill their boots.

Solving this issue is entirely within the gift of the MOD. They simply do not wish to spend more money on the support contract or oversee it properly.

[GalleyTeapot]

The ONLY house, out of a dozen I've lived in over the last 20 years, I've ever had mice in was a sh*tty OQ at Waddington.

No private let, or the two that I've owned, have had a sniff of a rodent. The fact is FQs are substandard, the cheap as chips rent up to the mid nineties was fair market value. It's smug little comments from your ilk that make me glad to live and work in the real world these days.

You have been lucky then. I wasn't making a smug comment, mice can be ANYWHERE. I've had them in my own private rural house before, it's nothing to do with the condition of the property.

[teeteringhead]

I wasn't making a smug comment, mice can be ANYWHERE Get a cat GT! A serious suggestion, we only ever saw mice (for more than their last few seconds of life :E) in various houses when we were catless. A very efficient killing machine is yer felis domesticus.

Had rats in an (official) flat in London once, but wasn't allowed a cat! :(

[Pontius Navigator]

Having seen SFA at Halton, Worthy Down, Hullavington, Waddington, Shrivenham, Cranwell and Ramstein all quite recently, I can say that the worst was without doubt Cranwell. Metal drain cover in the back garden held together by cobwebs, gutters fully, sofits bare and rotting.

Waddington, in contrast, well maintained and comfortable.

Hullavington, cloakroom, bathroom and toilet floors disgusting. My SiL replaced the flooring.

Worthy Down diabolical.

Halton best repaired, drains cleared, fire alarm replaced, hall carpet replaced, window catches rep!aced, kitchen tops replaced, back gate secured. I say replaced rather than maintained as these were all done on demand after the quarter had been renovated.

Best UK quarter, Shrivenham maintained by Servo. Not perfect but quite cozy and acceptable.

Best, the hiring at Ramstein.

So very much a curates egg, bad in places and worse elsewhere.

[Autobahnstormer]

CAAS was designed to make grading more efficient, reflecting the actual standards of MQ's. The old 4-tier system was inflexible and open to far too much interpretation by whoever had the newest copy of JSP 464. But nowadays it's all about money, isn't it? MQ Charges are still discounted in comparison to actual market rates. Notwithstanding that they are still peoples homes, and sub-standard MQ's are an intolerable disgrace, it's not what was described in the recruiting brochure was it? Whoever decided to flog-off the MQ estate and hand the maintenence over to whatever Contractor has the job this week, whould be fed feet-first into a mincer.
ABS
(Been working in Housing for decades)

[BEagle]

Autobahnstürmer wrote:Whoever decided to flog-off the MQ estate and hand the maintenance over to whatever Contractor has the job this week, should be fed feet-first into a mincer.

That would be Señor Portillo. So perhaps the word 'mincer' is somewhat apt?

When Portillo's deal with Annington was savaged by the National Audit Office in 1997, it found that the MoD had wasted £139m of public money in the £1.7bn sale.

The NAO also said that Portillo knew from his department's own figures that over 25 to 30 years it would have paid to retain ownership, selling only quarters that were surplus......

:rolleyes:

[Selatar]

At least it's only a 999 year lease so we get them back in 2995....

[N_1]

My OMQ is a band B which I have been informed is being graded a band C under CAAS.
In a nut shell my 4TG element of quarter charges are going up 273%!
I estimate I will lose almost £2K a year because of this. Galling as our pay has not kept up with even inflation since 2007/8 and I can't get them to replace the seals around the doors even though in a reasonable wind outside my hair looks like a hair advert if I stand close to it :-)
Why aren't they just honest and say this is a money grabbing exercise? More 'double double plus good speak' from DIO. Why aren't the cmd chain saying anything/ looking after their troops (I know the answer but I can only hope that someone has a pair)

I will be challenging but would appreciate any PMs of others experience/ outcome?

N_1