VIRGIN fleet review

[SHVC]

Well it's official all the E170 finally sold off and the beginning of the E190 sell off with the sale of 5 all ready. I hope VIRGIN have jobs for all the displace F50 and E190 Australian Pilots.

As rumour has it they are sponsoring the 457 visa holders.

[Icarus2001]

I am surprised that they are owned and not leased.

[Beer Baron]

I don't know a lot about the E190 or 170's beyond the fact they are supposed to be very comfortable and popular with passengers. But clearly Virgin are not madly in love with them based on their gradual reduction in the number they operate.

Why is that? Is it a fuel burn issue over an alternative type, do they have high operating/maintenance costs or is it simply the routes that they fly on are not economic? Any thoughts?

[ANCDU]

I think the airlines (well both majors in Australia) are in the processes of reducing the main types in their fleet. Economies of scale and all that type of stuff. I think shortly you might see one type between Virgin and Tiger, and I hear rumblings that Q is going to make an announcement over the next few months about the replacement for the 738 that could ruffle a few short haul feathers!

There seems to be a lot of consolidation going on while the going is good....the low fuel prices won't last forever.

[PoppaJo]

Same Problem

JetBlue CEO Laments Embraer 190 Costs | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week (http://m.aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/jetblue-ceo-laments-embraer-190-costs)

[Kranky]

When I was involved with them (back when they were new) the E Jet seemed like a good idea. The first issue was they just didn't have the legs to do east to west coast non stop and even today the only E Jet that comes into PER comes from ADL.

The E170 was taking good loads out of TSV to CNS, ROK, CBR and from memory they went to the Gold Coast as well. For some reason this was all stopped.

I'd say the fleet mix and engineering was an issue which Godfrey didn't see coming. Back then Virgin we're doing some weird things and I think sometimes emotion was driving decisions more than good business.

I'd say that now if they're getting rid of the E Jet it'd be because it makes good business sense.

[The Big E]

I think the airlines (well both majors in Australia) are in the processes of reducing the main types in their fleet.

One only has to remember back to the AN days when the logistics of operating a multi Type, and widely diversified fleet became both unmanageable in some respects (B767 misguided SB interpretation :=) etc. and subsequently uneconomic within the overall business model.

Ya all keep the faith now, and have a good 2016.:ok:Regards, BE.

[Derfred]

Well if the rumours are true one airline is about to make their short haul fleet a hell of a lot more complicated.

[teggun]

So what are the rumours?

[PoppaJo]

Probably that one again about Qantas replacing it's 737s with Jetstar A320s on order...flown by Jetstar Pilots.....on New Zealand contracts...does the rounds every now and then

[Lapon]

And the said Jetstar aircraft will be rebranded Q-Link, operated by 'Jetstar'? The J*78's will go to mainline under mainline 787 t&c's and branding? 'Qantas' will become the internation division and 'Qantas Link' the domestic operation? Its just crazy enough to be believable.... very pre 1990's ish too.

[Stationair8]

Shame to see the Emb190 from the Virgin fleet.

The Brazillian bird is one of the nicest aircraft to ride in as passenger.

Hopefully the crew get absorbed into the B737 fleet.

[Buckshot]

The mx in Portugal and more recently Van Nuys must have been pretty pricey

[missy]

The Brazillian bird is one of the nicest aircraft to ride in as passenger.

Ain't that the truth, always try to book on the E190 if I can.

[Skystar320]

Well it's official all the E170 finally sold off

Did these not be returned to the lessor years ago?

[Goat Whisperer]

No Skystar, they were subleased to Delta, operated by Compass, a Delta Connection carrier. Probably a mates' deal, they don't operate other 170s, just a whole lot of (similar) 175s.

[empire4]

I'll throw this one down......Replacing the 170/190 with Bombardier C series. Macquarie Bank have 40 C300 on order, due to be delivered 2017.

If what I've heard is true, it's a Borghetti master stroke. The aircraft is a curfew buster with Geared turbofans, capable of doing SYD-PER.

[Goat Whisperer]

empire4, I'd love to believe you're on to something but it's been a while since I suspected any of VA's brass of having that kind of vision.

[Open Wemac]

40 in 2017, wow they'd better start training soon! The 6x170's and 18x 190's seemed like they took forever when they were training crew.

Where did you hear this left field rumour?

[Open Wemac]

Syd-per, they could replace the 'mothership'!

[BPA]

If VA what a curfew buster they would go with the Embraer E2 (the new E-jet). It had the PW geared fan, but it is also a common endorsement with the E-jet.

[Falling Leaf]

What do QF do with their 100 seater flying? They sub-contract it out. Maybe VA are looking to do the same. Why would you retire a fleet without announcing a replacement?

[VH-FTS]

Spot on Falling Leaf. The question is, do they use VARA or Alliance F100s?

On another note, what was the comment earlier about 40 of something by 2017? It seems to have been removed.

[Going Nowhere]

Network want 50 extra pilots before the end of the year.

Alliance cleaned Austrian Airlines out of their F100 fleet not long ago...

Don't be surprised to see Network expanding.

[Open Wemac]

I read an asx statement today saying just that regarding Alliance.

[Helmethead]

I think the aim here is to have one common narrow body type and also one wide body type in the group hence the new EBA proposals.
Strong rumours also that Tiger are considering a swap to an all 737 fleet.
Or maybe VA will just become a real virtual airline soon.
Time will tell I suppose.

[morno]

Bookings on Tiger would increase by the looks of things

Loads are already good on existing routes with the existing fleet. Why change them?

Did you not see that Tiger actually made a half year profit the other day?

morno

[Berealgetreal]

From a couple of days ago:

Valentines day between Alliance and Virgin:

http://m.smh.com.au/business/aviation/virgin-australia-signs-charter-partnership-with-alliance-aviation-20160214-gmu24l.html

[Falling Leaf]

Virgin had signed a 10-year strategic alliance with Perth-based charter operator Skywest in 2011, but a year later Virgin launched a $100 million takeover of Skywest, which was completed in 2013.

Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

[Berealgetreal]

Need a fair bit of cash to buy Alliance!

[Transition Layer]

Alliance's Market Cap is only $60m.

About the same as a brand new B737. Pretty sure Virgin could afford to buy them if they wanted to!

[TBM-Legend]

Virgin has done a big freight deal with TNT.
VARA to operate ex-TNT Europe 146 freighters.

[TwoFiftyBelowTen]

As far as curfew-busters go, remember that it's not just the aircraft's noise footprint to consider. Landing must be 34L and departure must be 16R.
There are plenty of occasions when the wind would preclude one or the other.
How does an airline schedule flights under those restictions?
Sydney's curfew restrictions should allow an operation to depart 34L or land 16R if the downwind to operate under curfew runway use requirements is prohibitive.
Only Medivac flights have that luxury currently.

[Skystar320]

Virgin has done a big freight deal with TNT.
VARA to operate ex-TNT Europe 146 freighters.

Link? ................

[Snakecharma]

I hope that was just a tongue in cheek piss take.

[DutyofCare]

Just refueled a V aircraft & heard that Gary Pork was happier to fly around 1/2 empty 738 MAXs ( when they get here ) then have 87% load factored E-Jets flying around :bored:

Meanwhile, John Spaghetti & Co seem happy to loose over $220 000 a week on his A332 operation :confused:

We can only say: its the greater minds at work here chaps :\

Well V management, get those shovels & wheelbarrows out again this week & flush those good dollars down the toilet with pride :ugh:

[wheels_down]

They seem pretty narrow minded on keeping the A330 on Perth and Perth only. I mean, it does the odd Fiji run on weekends but that's because there's sitting around doing nothing, on a Saturday the whole Airbus fleet barely moves. They seem to spend a lot of time parked, expensive machine to have sitting around.

[Falling Leaf]

My prediction is that the E-Jet is going as part of a strategy to have VARA do all 'regional' flying, as their name suggests. That includes 100 seater aircraft. Using the 737 to fly 100 seater routes is just a stop gap while they set up Alliance F100's in the East Coast to do what the Skywest F100's are already doing on the West Coast; replace the E-Jet flying.

So by 2020+ maybe Virgin will look like this…

Wide-body: B787 (A330 and B777 gone)
Narrow-body: B737 NG & MAX
VARA: ATR and F100
Tiger: B737NG

The only caveat to this prediction is if they follow the QF playbook, the 787 and MAX's could go to Tiger first….after all, the LCC needs the most fuel efficient aircraft.

[Capt Basil Brush]

The only caveat to this prediction is if they follow the QF playbook, the 787 and MAX's could go to Tiger first….after all, the LCC needs the most fuel efficient aircraft.

Not the case with the Tiger painted 737's, they are the old fuel guzzling, non acars machines, not the nice new SFP ones. Apparently they were chosen because they are the cheapest lease wise.

[Transition Layer]

Wide-body: B787 (A330 and B777 gone)
Narrow-body: B737 NG & MAX
VARA: ATR and F100
Tiger: B737NG

God helps us if the F100 is still around post 2020. It's an embarrassment that airlines in Australia are currently falling over themselves to get their hands on 20 year old airframes handed down from operators all over the world, including some 3rd world countries.

But they're.....CHEAP! :yuk:

[glekichi]

So what aircraft would you select for a low utilisation business model then?
Nobody can afford to park new aircraft overnight AND on weekends AND on low utilisation days.

[Derfred]

Not the case with the Tiger painted 737's, they are the old fuel guzzling, non acars machines, not the nice new SFP ones.

How did SFP 737's with ACARS become more fuel efficient, exactly?

[juliusg]

Some un-named airline or lease co just ordered 14 x A330 NEO at the Singapore show..... with VA running 11 widebodies in two types, would 14 NEO in about 4 - 5 years make sense?

[Capt Basil Brush]

Not the case with the Tiger painted 737's, they are the old fuel guzzling, non acars machines, not the nice new SFP ones.

How did SFP 737's with ACARS become more fuel efficient, exactly?

By that I was pointing out the new SFP aircraft in the fleet are more fuel efficient than the older NG's with performance degradation over time. Obviously acars does not make them more fuel efficient, but offers efficiencies in other ways.

[rexxxxxy]

Spare a thought for the e-Jet drivers during this. Only last week being assured e-Jet isn't leaving.

No base protection in the EBA - union not wanting to get involved and the most senior of them only being high enough to bid for a MEL/SYD 737 command.

Pilots - who'd want to be one :D:=

If I was them, I'd wait it out for a while, more to come to this story I'd suspect.

[Transition Layer]

aircraft would you select for a low utilisation business model then?
Nobody can afford to park new aircraft overnight AND on weekends AND on

But they (the F100s) aren't just being used on the mining charter flights now. RPT routes to places like BME/KTA/PHE where people book on VA or QF and end up with an inferior product - no IFE, slower and lower aircraft, poor reliability.

But whack a VA or QF flight number on it and as long as the paint job on the tail is correct, make the uniforms the same then the bean counters are happy!

[porch monkey]

How is an SFP more fuel efficient? Because they use less fuel for takeoff generally, and coinciding with the entering into the fleet of the SFP, there was also a tech insertion engine wise that also lowered fuel burn. You can see same by looking at the turbine outlet. You'll also find they start about 100 degrees hotter than the old, indicating a leaner start schedule.

[PoppaJo]

juliusg Some un-named airline or lease co just ordered 14 x A330 NEO at the Singapore show..... with VA running 11 widebodies in two types, would 14 NEO in about 4 - 5 years make sense?

Expected to be Garuda.

Future widebodies will probably come from Singapore or Etihad's current fleet or order book. I'd say Singapore they seem to dictate all major decisions behind closed doors.

[Berealgetreal]

Alliance these days seem to buy/sell/lease frames and make good money out of it. They are also masters of the FIFO. Their pilot group whilst lower paid than others seem to enjoy working there. It's an interesting tie up.

[Kulwin Park]

I flew on a F100 for the first time the other day - fly a lot as a platinum member. I was quite surprised about how comfortable they were for passengers. Good on ALLIANCE. I think that they will be around until 2022 at least. Many more miles in them, and cheap to operate. Not every passenger needs new aircraft, just comfort and great service.

[Berealgetreal]

With low fuel prices they are pretty unbeatable. Dare say however their presence in the west is set to diminish with the end of mining. Ghost town rings a bell.

[chuboy]

Yep it's worth balancing the lack of IFE (just bring your own tablet, most people do anyway) with the unbeatable seat pitch. I know I'll always choose 34" of space in Y over whatever Virgin thinks will keep me entertained.

The punters couldn't even take a guess at the age of the frame they're riding in so as long as they have space to stretch out they won't be bothered in the slightest. The modern-day 737, while a venerable workhorse, has lowered the standard for personal space in economy class.

[Berealgetreal]

http://http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2016/02/26/embraer-rolls-out-its-new-tech-regional-jet/

The revised version.

[wheels_down]

They don't muck about...

Two E190s already gone. ZPD is now on the East Coast USA, ZPG is currently inbound to HNL as I type. Apia-Honolulu-Van Nuys-Nashville. Exit of Service Maintenance.

[ranmar850]

But they (the F100s) aren't just being used on the mining charter flights now. RPT routes to places like BME/KTA/PHE where people book on VA or QF and end up with an inferior product - no IFE, slower and lower aircraft, poor reliability.

As SLF, inferior to what--apart from lack of IFE. Try and find an equivalent seat pitch anywhere else on oz's domestic fleet. I'll take one over ANY 737 I've flown on, any day.

I flew on a F100 for the first time the other day - fly a lot as a platinum member. I was quite surprised about how comfortable they were for passengers. Good on ALLIANCE. I think that they will be around until 2022 at least. Many more miles in them, and cheap to operate. Not every passenger needs new aircraft, just comfort and great service

I've done a lot of airmiles in the F100, Platinium also, always happy with the "old" Fokker--just don't go aft of the overwing exit rows.. E 190 next preference.

[Logohu]

The 34" pitch in the F100s is a good 3-4" more than QF/VA give in Y on their 737s, and with only 5 abreast seating in the Fokker there's less middle seats too.
And 34" is only 3-4" less than you get in the expensive Business class cabins of the 737s.

Expect to see lots more F100s and F70s in our skies now that Alliance and Pixie have hoovered up most of the remaining F100 and F70 fleets of Austrian and KLM.

[VH-FTS]

Virgin has done a big freight deal with TNT.
VARA to operate ex-TNT Europe 146 freighters.

We all thought TBM was taking drugs when he made this statement...

[Gas Bags]

Porch Monkey,

The tech insertion engine came out well before the SFP packaged NG. There is no way to tell a tech insertion engine by looking at the 4th stage LPT outlet. The changes are all internal.

[bangbounceboeing]

So the F50 fleet has been retired, the EMB fleet is prob next for the chopping block so what's next.........
Hardly worth keeping small fleets of A330's or B777's. Maybe back to a sole B737 operator in a few years?

[Falling Leaf]

the EMB fleet is prob next for the chopping block so what's next.........

No probably about it. 5 already sold and will be gone in the next few months. 2 more reach the end of their lease in March next year. Present buyer may have options on more. Best case will be down from 18 to 11 by early next year. Only one more 'deal' needed after that and they'll all be gone or the remainder will be parked awaiting sub-lease.

[wateroff]

747's to Hong Kong??

[VH-FTS]

We all thought TBM was taking drugs when he made this statement...

So...BAE146 Virgin Cargo ops are happening and no one on pprune blinks an eye lid. Very disappointed in you lot.

Making cut backs everywhere but throwing big dollars to get this pipe dream up and running. Hope a big customer or two are about to help pay the bills.

[Chadzat]

Ah FTS I dare say they already have a big customer paying for it otherwise they wouldnt be doing it?!

Remember when Freight was first announced they were pretty adamant they wouldnt be adding dedicated freighters unless the business case stacked up and someone approached them.

[Icarus2001]

to get this pipe dream up and running. What makes you say that it is a pipe dream? Whether it is profitable or not is another matter. VA as a whole is only barely profitable.

One thing is certain. There is money to be made in freight operations.

[bangbounceboeing]

Where is this talk of 146's coming from?

[VH-FTS]

What makes you say that it is a pipe dream? Whether it is profitable or not is another matter.

I should have clarified. The $150 million by mid 2017 pipe dream.

[Snakecharma]

2 X 146's on the way, recruitment under way at the moment.

I assume 200 spare engines coming also but not sure :)

[Stationair8]

So the old BAE-146 night freighter, that should lure the applicants in.

Quadrapuff time is a must for the CV.

[Goat Whisperer]

It's not a rumour, applications are now being accepted for captains and FOs on the gas chamber.

Not the April 1 joke I expected.

[training wheels]

It's not a rumour, applications are now being accepted for captains and FOs on the gas chamber.

Not the April 1 joke I expected.

Where is this this advertised? It's not on the Virgin Careers web site.

[Goat Whisperer]

It's on the internal one.

[RATpin]

2 X 146's on the way, recruitment under way at the moment.

I assume 200 spare engines coming also but not sure :)

Gold,think AN where changing around one per week when the first got them.

[TWOTBAGS]

A contract of sorts was being shopped around last year regarding Virgin's freight aspirations.
Then this gem is published "Virgin signed a heads of agreement with TNT to finalise a five-year deal to take effect from July".

So lets join the dots, Toll takes the underbelly to QF, underbelly space is fine on the VA fleet. Virgin needs an underwriter, TNT needs an operator.

Next gem.....Feb 5 TNT Express will sell its airline operations to ASL Aviation Group to comply with European Union rules if the Dutch logistics company's sale to larger rival FedEx goes ahead, the company said on Friday

ASL is a 737 operator and does not need the 146's that TNT have had since Ables tried to buy out the production line forever....

So TNT have got 146's parked and a few in service, Virgin has an AOC and a 737 wont get through SYD during curfew.

Now we have joined the dots, the 146's will be donated to the cause, VA will kick off VA Freight with a CNS-BNE-SYD-MEL-ADL cross over a-la the AN Wombat 146's, supported by plenty of underbelly space on the 330's to/from the west.

Good luck with the gas chamber, 5 oil leaks connected by and electrical fault, thankfully its only 4 nights a week......:}

:ok:

[Engineer_aus]

There are 2 146F's sitting in a hangar just around from my hangar at Bankstown. Apparently they are being prepped soon for painting into virgin freight colours.

[morenonsense]

After chopping the E jets and the F50's why would they take on one or two 146 aircraft ? - Cant see it making economic sense to crew , engineer , provision and acquire something that flies 4 nights a week ( or breaks down 4 nights a week ) for an entity like V .
I cant see anyone being able to make a sensible case for it - not forgetting the implication in the half year results that reducing the number of types in the fleet was good for them. Outsource is my bet . Let someone else go broke .

[chuboy]

The devil is in the detail. It's entirely possible that JB has stitched up a contract which guarantees a certain amount of income, in which case the economics become much easier.

[continueapproach737]

Think bigger.

Embraer's getting sold more revenue

Fokker 50's removed from service as a result of downturn in mining and loss of RPT. Alliance to buy a few and operate the remainder on VA's behalf with their new partnership

146's to operate freight underwritten by a major player

[The Baron]

Just goes to show how bad things have got. If they think they struggled with a 4th Generation airframe like the Embraer how are the engineers going to deal with these old clunkers. Not to mention the well documented oil fumes problems. Engine TBOs around the 5500 hrs and 2300kg/hr as long as there is no icing. Hope they can find a few blacksmiths to deal with the known mainspar corrosion issues as well.

[Taildragger67]

747's to Hong Kong??

Since when were '747' and 'Virgin' (Australia) in the same sentence?

One could imagine VA A330s going to HK, though...

[Engineer_aus]

146 maintenance to be contracted out to a 3rd party. Expect the advertisements to come out very soon ;)

[The Green Goblin]

So when are they going to rebrand the company Ansett?


They've pretty much acquired the same fleet!

[wateroff]

It was tongue in cheek....747's and VA dont go together, neither does A330's and HK....that would be common sense

[airdualbleedfault]

Just goes to show how bad things have got. If they think they struggled with a 4th Generation airframe like the Embraer how are the engineers going to deal with these old clunkers. Not to mention the well documented oil fumes problems. Engine TBOs around the 5500 hrs and 2300kg/hr as long as there is no icing. Hope they can find a few blacksmiths to deal with the known mainspar corrosion issues as well.

Yes Baron, because the 146 has been such a flop for NJS/Cobham for 25+ years ;)

[Snakecharma]

I suspect the difference is that NJS/Cobham have a handle on how to maintain those airframes, which bits break regularly, have the process for changing an engine down pat (albeit without using QC engines), it will very much depend on who maintains these things, but they aren't a 737, don't have the issues a 737 has and isn't as reliable as a 737, so it will require a mindset change.

The saving grace will be, I assume, that these things will sit around during the day and not fly, so the engineers will have plenty of time to work on them, assuming that they actually employ engineers during the day and not rely on the MEL and good luck to get by.

[WipperSnapper]

I suspect the difference is that NJS/Cobham have a handle on how to maintain those airframes, which bits break regularly, have the process for changing an engine down pat (albeit without using QC engines), it will very much depend on who maintains these things, but they aren't a 737, don't have the issues a 737 has and isn't as reliable as a 737, so it will require a mindset change.

The saving grace will be, I assume, that these things will sit around during the day and not fly, so the engineers will have plenty of time to work on them, assuming that they actually employ engineers during the day and not rely on the MEL and good luck to get by.

I would expect the 146 to be operated under VARA who have a little experience in operating old unreliable aircraft.
As a side, the few VA engineers I know all worked on 146's back before Virgin existed so they know what they are like (even if the mangement don't).

[Engineer_aus]

FYI these will be ops and maintained by a 3rd party, but flown with a Virgin tail.

[Snakecharma]

Operated by VARA

[airdualbleedfault]

Operated by VARA

What he said.

[Icarus2001]

experience in operating old unreliable aircraft. The Fokker 100s ? Most are older than the Cobham RJ fleet.

Interesting that with a little research and digging around I found that NJS/Cobham using these "unreliable aircraft" have a better OTP than Qantas, Virgin, Jetstar and Tiger. Funny that.

[Berealgetreal]

So you are saying that they are reliable and don't require a lot of care or experience in maintaining them? Of the 146 drivers I've spoken to they've all said the opposite.

As for OTP are you comparing Cobham 146's to 737/320's operating on 35 minute turns up and down the east cost nearly 24/7?

[Falling Leaf]

Find it really interesting that on this forum, the addition of 2 BAE-146 aircraft to a small air-freight subsidiary business has attracted more attention then the withdrawal of 18 E-jets. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Howa]

Find it really interesting that on this forum, the addition of 2 BAE-146 aircraft to a small air-freight subsidiary business has attracted more attention then the withdrawal of 18 E-jets. :ugh::ugh::ugh:
Will the E-jet withdrawal signal a longer wait for off the street recruitment?

[VH-FTS]

Will the E-jet withdrawal signal a longer wait for off the street recruitment?

My two cents...

What fleet are you talking about? External recruitment sounds like it will be on to the ATR, 777 or VANZ. External recruitment on to mainline jets looks unlikely given the number of VARA, VANZ and 777 pilots already on the seniority list, plus the E-Jet guys that now will need to find places on the 737. The only thing that might stimulate external recruitment onto VAA jets is if there was a sudden pilot shortage and significant growth, and the existing pilots were bonded and therefore couldn't move. Plus there is a cap on the number of VARA pilots that can go across to VAA so they don't cripple the regional fleets.

Given Virgin's woes and the dying economy there will be no significant growth for the foreseeable future.

[Howa]

Primarily interested in VANZ fleet.
Thanks for the info.

[Berealgetreal]

http://http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2016/03/15/airnorth-who-brings-scheduled-jets-to-wellcamp-where/

[Falling Leaf]

plus the E-Jet guys that now will need to find places on the 737

There are no guarantees that all the E-jet FO's will get a seat on the 737….with Tiger gnawing away at Virgin 737 flying now and more into the future, and not all E-jet routes being taken up by the 737 anyway, some may be forced onto the 777, ATR or VANZ. Company can always claim credit for not making them redundant! :8

So wouldn't be holding my breath about external recruitment.

[Icarus2001]

So you are saying that they are reliable and don't require a lot of care or experience in maintaining them? Of the 146 drivers I've spoken to they've all said the opposite
No, I am saying that they are NOT unreliable as stated by WipperSnapper in his/her first ever post.
ALL aircraft require the care and experience of engineers. VB had issues with the E Jet until there was some level of experience. The NJS/Cobham engineers are across any issues. Their clients seem happy enough.
Do we as "drivers" (a horrible expression) really know what goes on with maintenance?

[WipperSnapper]

No, I am saying that they are NOT unreliable as stated by WipperSnapper in his/her first ever post.
ALL aircraft require the care and experience of engineers. VB had issues with the E Jet until there was some level of experience. The NJS/Cobham engineers are across any issues. Their clients seem happy enough.
Do we as "drivers" (a horrible expression) really know what goes on with maintenance?

I didn't actually say that, I was talking more of the fokkers. Unreliable was probably the wrong word, less reliable than a 737 or maintenance intensive are probably more appropriate. I haven't worked on the 146 but going on the previous posts in this thread and friends who do, or have previously maintained them they are not much fun as an engineer. Similar things are thrown around about the fokker 100, so you would expect vara to have a little idea about how to manage them. I am not holding much hope though.

[Bula]

Is it just me, or am I the only one who saw that VAA have 10.5 million in operating cash....

Selling th E100 Sounds like a capital free-up to me, in case credit becomes tight. A small loss on routes where B737 replaces E190 and let the "cheaper" capital assets fill the void on a small inefficiency until there is more money in the bank.

I haven't looked at the debt yield ratio's. Anyone?

[Tommy Bahama]

Someone has.....Look at where the share price closed on Friday. Although considered not an actively traded stock its performance does seem particularly woeful even with the Friday afternoon closing price shenanigans.

[iPahlot]

Someone has.....Look at where the share price closed on Friday. Although considered not an actively traded stock its performance does seem particularly woeful even with the Friday afternoon closing price shenanigans.

Ouch! Very true, higher than normal volume, but not significant either.

It did see a bit of a sell off right after a mum and dad investor newsletter (The Motley Fool) touted Qantas' turnaround and suggesting people buy that.

With a 18% drop over 3 days you'll also find that the shorters would have been all over the stock. The day traders will more than likely be keeping an eye on the shares as well waiting for a bounce which will see an increase in the price and then another sell off while the aforementioned get out of their positions.

I don't day trade anymore so don't have access to IRESS anymore, but could be an interesting one to watch (from a trading point of view). Especially if Virgin can get Tiger to turn a profit within the next 12 months. In the meantime I wouldn't see the share price as much of a concern.

[porch monkey]

Rumour has it that the sale/lease whatever you want to call it for the first e jets hasn't exactly proceeded swimmingly after all......... "Oh, what to do, what to do...."??

[hoss]

More info please. I heard there off to Tehran!

:mad: (can't find a smiley wearing a hijab)

[TBM-Legend]

The shareholders have been asked to kick the can for another injection of around $425M...(today's SMH & AusAvn)
http://australianaviation.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=dd104ea6791feb4249d17cc80&id=326170f74b&e=310205b049

Creative accounting perhaps on these last profit disclosure ??

[Falling Leaf]

$425 million….that should keep the A330 going for another 3-4 years….:8

[porch monkey]

It's only a rumour young fella. But saying you'll take them and actually getting the finance in place to do so appear to be different things......

[B772]

Is the ex Virgin F50 fleet still at ASP ?

[DutyofCare]

Doz any 1 no wen VARA r parking all d ATR 72-500s out a YDAS :confused: :confused: :confused:

Is there an internal Engineering Email 4 a tech 2 b based in d Alice :bored: :bored: :bored:

R Alliance about 2 pikup all ATR RK & GLA runs soon :{ :{ :{

Doz d ATR fleet com unda REVIEW WITH LESS DEN 8 X FRAMES FLYN :sad:

LOOKS ALOT LIKE QR ATM :( :( :(

[Kranky]

Haha so funny Boeing. I was sort of thinking the same. :ok::ok::ok:

[coaldemon]

I haven't seen that sort of Frontier Gibberish in years. Excellent effort.

[VH-FTS]

Forget the way DutyofCare wrote the message and take note of the content. He/she has shown in the past that he/she knows what's going on behind the scenes and is just being cryptic.

Rats have fled the sinking ship and there's a massive crew shortage within VA. This gives the company more reason to outsource the flying to Alliance. I doubt the ATR will be flying much in QLD soon, if GLT and ROK go that just leaves Moranbah and the odd Bundaberg flight. No wonder pilots have left, including very senior ones.

[Scamp Damp]

Why would the fleet come under review with less than 8 frames?
Why not apply that logic to the 777/330

[Berealgetreal]

Good point.

[BPA]

The 777/330 fleet is under (has been for 2 years or so) with the plan to only have one widebody (B787 or A350)

I think the reduced ATR fleet future will be in NSW.

[Berealgetreal]

350/787 are expensive however.

[VH-FTS]

Is the rumour true pilots received an email in the last day or two all but confirming the demise of ATRs in QLD?

[chuboy]

Half year results out today, JB confirming all E190 flying ceased in 2017 with the remaining airframes to be sold.

No 737MAX until 2019 either.

[Strewth]

VA codeshare on Hong Kong Airlines, Hainan Airlines & HK Express (http://www.traveldaily.com.au/news/td-breaking-news-virgin-australia-hna-aviation-alliance-revealed/276731)

[Berealgetreal]

Who is the buyer of the 190's? Better outcome than parking them. Lot of ATR talk going on.

[DutyofCare]

The E-jets will be parked in a U.S Desert for an amount shorty.

About 10 x Ejet frames still have leases on them ( till 2022 ) thx to Pork Roll stuffing up a potential buyer when he used to sit in the SYD Throne Room.

No cash for the new B738 Max: are the 1st 10 going to Air Fuji :eek:

JB is Pig Headed on VAA A332 ops EBA saying recently:

DON'T ANYONE IN THIS ROOM MENTION BUSINESS CLASS COMMUTING TRAVEL TODAY THE ANSWER IS NO > I WILL JUST MOVE ON & ANSWER THE NEXT QUESTION :ouch:

With that type of attitude, what possible chance have all the hard working crews got to help see a better direction for the A332 ops :confused: :confused: :confused:

So many issues to resolve for V now, we wonder how some managers sleep each night :ugh:

What's CASAs position on Vs continual open rostering / unapproved leave scheme & the effects on crews just out of interest :=

[B772]

First B737-MAX deferred until November 2019.

[Derfred]

Someone asked for business class commuting travel?

[porch monkey]

No, they didn't, Derfred. But let's not let that get in the way of the story, huh.:rolleyes:

[Falling Leaf]

Heard on the jungle drums that 15 ATR crew resigned last week.

[Strewth]

"Cathay and Qantas have got it by the throat" (http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/02/virgin-australia-keeping-powder-dry-on-hong-kong-flight/) AA John Borghetti, Feb. 17, 2017

"However, the airline has not confirmed the aircraft would come from its existing fleet of six A330-200s, which are predominantly used on trans-continental services from Perth to Australia’s east coast capitals."

Virgin Australia launches flights to Hong Kong (http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/virgin-australia-launches-flights-to-hong-kong-unveils-tieup-with-chinese-carriers-20170216-guezhv.html) SMH Feb 17, 2017

[porch monkey]

If the current ones aren't doing East coat West coast, and there definitely aren't going to be any more purchases in the short term, what aircraft do you think they'll use?

[chuboy]

Tiger 737s?

[porch monkey]

Yeah, that'd only be 2 stops I guess.

[Strewth]

HNA VA Fleet Puzzle A330/350 B787 (https://www.ausbt.com.au/is-hna-the-answer-to-virgin-australia-s-fleet-puzzle) ABT David Flynn, June 30, 2016

[chuboy]

Perhaps the joke wasn't that funny porch monkey!

[coaldemon]

The Jungle drums are miles off as usual. More like 1 last week

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

HNA VA Fleet Puzzle A330/350 B787 (https://www.ausbt.com.au/is-hna-the-answer-to-virgin-australia-s-fleet-puzzle) ABT David Flynn, June 30, 2016
Chinese pilots flying B registered jets in Virgin colors. 😈

[BPA]

Lots of VA pilots undergong A330 endorsement training in Singapore at the moment with 2-3 courses running per month until around May.

[porch monkey]

Nah, I got it Chuboy, but it's a sensitive subject internally at the moment.....:sad:

[AerialPerspective]

The E-jets will be parked in a U.S Desert for an amount shorty.

About 10 x Ejet frames still have leases on them ( till 2022 ) thx to Pork Roll stuffing up a potential buyer when he used to sit in the SYD Throne Room.

No cash for the new B738 Max: are the 1st 10 going to Air Fuji :eek:

JB is Pig Headed on VAA A332 ops EBA saying recently:

DON'T ANYONE IN THIS ROOM MENTION BUSINESS CLASS COMMUTING TRAVEL TODAY THE ANSWER IS NO > I WILL JUST MOVE ON & ANSWER THE NEXT QUESTION :ouch:

With that type of attitude, what possible chance have all the hard working crews got to help see a better direction for the A332 ops :confused: :confused: :confused:

So many issues to resolve for V now, we wonder how some managers sleep each night :ugh:

What's CASAs position on Vs continual open rostering / unapproved leave scheme & the effects on crews just out of interest :=
That sort of pig headed attitude makes me sick... when I fly with an airline I want the people up the pointy end to be well rested if they've pax'd in prior to the flight... this "No one will ride in Business Class because I've had the backlash at another organisation of customers complaining" BUT, I and one or two of my Execs will travel up there... well, if you actually knew anything Mr Mail Room Boy, you would know that the reason it was restricted in the 70s and up to the mid-80s at QF was because it was management who misbehaved and ruined it for all... we only need to look at a few years ago when a certain senior orange-star staffer was reported for getting 'cosy' with his g/friend in First on QF to see that it's those with entitlement complex that take it for granted. Years ago, management in NZ complained to their then CEO that staff shouldn't be able to travel in J and P. He said "OK", and banned it for everyone, including the manager's that complained. Shot themselves in the foot it seems. It just irks me that this bloke who has wrecked the airline almost thinks it's more important for him to fly in a comfy seat than a crew member who may have to be alert enough to save an aircraft full of pax.

[DutyofCare]

HEY AerialPerspective (http://www.pprune.org/members/305778-aerialperspective) = you are on the MONEY SPORT :ok: :ok: :ok:

Where can we VOTE 4 YOU :D :D :D

AerialPerspective (http://www.pprune.org/members/305778-aerialperspective): Where is the ACCOUNTABILITY WITHIN V PLS :confused: :confused: :confused:

[AerialPerspective]

Aerial,

Yes but you see, he doesn't care. In my experience at VA there was a lot of saying "yes we care" but in reality nobody gave a **** about anything.
Spot on. Like much management these days, it's all about image and calling areas or departments someone's 'space' and 'going forward' and talking about a restructure and 'what that looks like' and being 'keen' to do something or 'taking' a decision rather than making one - in other words, deliberately crafted weasel words that can be wriggled out from under later on when the inevitable complaint comes that what was alluded to wasn't done because there was no intention. Someone once said to me there, you will find out very quickly that the public image and the internal reality are diametrically opposed.

[AerialPerspective]

HEY AerialPerspective (http://www.pprune.org/members/305778-aerialperspective) = you are on the MONEY SPORT :ok: :ok: :ok:

Where can we VOTE 4 YOU :D :D :D

AerialPerspective (http://www.pprune.org/members/305778-aerialperspective): Where is the ACCOUNTABILITY WITHIN V PLS :confused: :confused: :confused:
Thanks DoC... there is no accountability. I was almost chloroformed by meetings where an endless drone of weasel words were spilled out but that never lead to anything happening. The thing is the truth will out eventually and slowly it's happening... the TT debacle over DPS, the lack of profit for 5-6 years. You are too kind but I come from a family tradition of airlines and of logic and straight talk... I have zero time for weasel words and for people who flit around like weasel word sprouting parrots and actually know absolutely nothing about management or the business they're in... if I was in charge of that company you would see a completely different approach. Honesty, reality and logic would trump everything else and anyone who dared to say 'going forward', 'reaching out', 'how's things in your space', etc, would be donated to the long line at Centrelink. I'm not for entitlement mentality but just logic and that stupid rule does not pass the logic test... there is simply no logical justification for someone like that to present an argument about crew traveling down the back (which might be believable if properly thought through and argued) then to turn around and say 'but I can'. It not only doesn't pass the logic test, it doesn't pass the stink test. Just imagine an impartial judge at a royal commission after a serious incident, quizzing as to why the tecch crew were not allowed the best and most comfortable seat available while the CEO flew up the front. I dare say the person responsible would be pilloried. Imagine the reaction of relatives if something awful happened if they found out that it might not have if the crew were more rested and when they found out that the CEO was flying in that cabin... just look at the reaction over the other CEO leaving DXB and that is in a company where T/Crew do get to travel up the front - that incident was minor compared to the other situation across the road. It just completely frustrates and glad to not be a part of it anymore.

[AerialPerspective]

So when are they going to rebrand the company Ansett?


They've pretty much acquired the same fleet!
They're just waiting to get hold of some second hand BAe-146s and some second hand 767s to replace the A330s then they'll do it LOL

[AerialPerspective]

There are 2 146F's sitting in a hangar just around from my hangar at Bankstown. Apparently they are being prepped soon for painting into virgin freight colours.
Hahaha,,. is one of them ex Titan Airways... Geez they got rid of that years ago...

[Falling Leaf]

This train wreck has only just started, so much more to come out, not in announcements, but my the cold hard light of day...

[Vorsicht]

The 'Bowen Hills bubble' is the most suffocating, inefficient, bureaucratic place in the known universe. Meeting after meeting, when the only thing that is decided was when to have another meeting. Very serious siloing across departments. Organisations that function in this way will decline and slowly die - they have no resilience and minimal capacity for change. No will know until right at the end as one thing the village people are good at is keeping bad news hidden and putting a positive spin on everything. In the meantime Nero fiddles while Rome burns.. BTW, where is Nero, haven't seem him at the village for a while...

And then there's the 'Macquarie Place' bubble which is another level removed from the 'Bowen Hills' bubble again, and so far from the coalface that you can't even see an aeroplane from there, just the ferries at Circular Quay. So close to Alan that he can almost see the chair that could have been his. If only............

If only the feckin fecker could run a feckin airline, to be sure, to be sure.......

Livin next door to Alan

[DutyofCare]

On you Bonegi1 (http://www.pprune.org/members/451706-bonegi1) = Odds on for you & your comments = totally agreed :ok: :ok: :ok:

Bonegi1 (http://www.pprune.org/members/451706-bonegi1) can you provide a HEADS-UP when JB is going back to Qantas pls :confused: :confused: :confused:

Bonegi1 (http://www.pprune.org/members/451706-bonegi1) do you think his JOB IS DONE at VA :E :E :E

[VHFRT]

Good to see that at least the PER-AUH setup has gone according to plan....

[The Bullwinkle]

Bonegi1 can you provide a HEADS-UP when JB is going back to Qantas pls
Did he ever really leave?
Surely they must be paying him some sort of bonus for the amazing job he is doing for them.:mad:
Awarded an OAM for his contribution to aviation?!? Must have been for his contribution to QANTAS aviation!

[SHVC]

Regarding today's email, looks like the 330 guys can look forward to trans con for the indefinite future.

[The Bullwinkle]

He couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, but somehow it will all be everybody else's fault! :mad:

[chuboy]

3 times a week to AUH was barely a token effort anyway.

It's not a good look but it makes sense to keep the frames for daily HKG. Perhaps someone should have mentioned that before they published the press release...

[unionist1974]

Aerial Perspective, you should be running the show , you are so sharp, so bright .
Why are you just an also ran posting on Pprune , get your Cv in for the job. I am sure Sir Richard will welcome you with open arms.

[SHVC]

Looks like we find out the ATR fate on the 15th, posssibly all the 500s definitely going and the BNE ATR base to close shop is the rumour around the crew rooms.

[rexxxxxy]

Looks like we find out the ATR fate on the 15th, posssibly all the 500s definitely going and the BNE ATR base to close shop is the rumour around the crew rooms.

Confirmed today.

All 500s gone. Only 6 600s to stay and only in NSW/VIC/ACT.

The only airline in the world that can't make money with ATRs :ugh:

But don't worry-

"This decision to move to one ATR type will have an impact on Virgin Australia's Regional Queensland flying, however we are currently investigating a number of options to limit this impact, and these will be shared in due course."

Who wants to guess what that means??

[chuboy]

Move to Sydney and fly one of the six remaining ATRs?

Or get trained up on the 737.

Hmmm.

With FIFO well and truly wound down in QLD I'm not surprised there's not as much regional flying. But you have to wonder what VA's plan is as they seem to have been caught with their pants down.

Decent fleet of 737s for the bread and butter but with an expensive collection of other types, too few of each for any serious attempt at a route strategy. Not enough 777s for daily US from the golden triangle. Not enough A330s for daily transcontinental and Asia. Embraer fleet too small to achieve economy of scale in Australia or just badly managed?

If I were a shareholder I would be feeling uncomfortable with the apparent lack of direction.

[The Bullwinkle]

If I were a shareholder I would be feeling uncomfortable with the apparent lack of direction.
Apparent?!? More like obvious lack of direction!

[Falling Leaf]

Embraer fleet too small to achieve economy of scale in Australia or just badly managed?

Yes E190 crew were told that 18 aircraft was unsustainable. Meanwhile Tiger had an entire 'airline' of 12 aircraft, and now we are told how sustainable a fleet of 6 ATR's will be....FFS!

[virginexcess]

Yes, it would be nice for someone to actually say,

"due to inneffective CEO and dysfunctionally paralysed board, we are clueless as to what direction the company is headed. As a result we will continue to change the aircraft/fleet mix as well as add and remove new routes, in an attempt to create the illusion of progress under the banner of difficult market conditions and sluggish Australian economy in an attempt to meet dubious KPI's in order to achieve our Short and Long Term Incentives".

[SHVC]

I wonder what "re location package" the company is proposing to the BN ATR crew. I give it to July 18th Alliance will be doing these "unsustainable routes" on a wet lease off VA as ther will be no ATRs operating out of BNE.

[Chadzat]

"Why arent VARA operating F70s and more F100s?'

Because MM is too concerned with creating jigsaw puzzles out of motivational paintings rather than negotiating a proper deal with a company that used to be a competitor.

[BPA]

No Alliance won't be. Unable under the VARA 2015 EBA clause contained within.

Why the fudge VARA aren't flying some Alliance F70's (under their little bed sharing arrangement) is beyond me.

When is the 737 review coming at VAA? Surely 100 frames is unsustainable

The following aircraft have had reviews in the past few years:

B777
F50 (retired)
A320 (VARA)
E190
ATR72

And SHVC, on a positive side the last relocation package I was involved in was more than generous. Well over $15,000, 2 cars from memory, 2 weeks accommodation for the whole fam, flights galore, car hire etc. It was more than generous. Hopefully, though the distances will be a lot less for those displaced (not one side of the country to the other), it will still be generous under the circumstances

Only routes in QLD Alliance can't fly under the VARA EBA are Moranbah and Bundy. Any other route can be flown as the routes are also flown by VA B737s and E190s. They are already flying the Emerald run.

[Chadzat]

Incorrect. The way the EBA is worded it includes Rockhampton and Gladstone.

[coaldemon]

Moranbah. A quick way to lose even more money on a route by sending an F100 there. Reality is that if VA doesn't fly them at all the clause doesn't mean much I expect. Or are Vara crew expecting to be paid something or compensated if they don't?

[SHVC]

Well Boeing you're not correct in that,

Whilst I some what agree, the wet lease clause does state that there will be no wet leasing or subcontracting on routes operated by VARA, July 17th these routes will not be operated by VARA ATR 72 aircraft, unless, they bring the F100 or A320 from the west coast. July 18th VA can get whom ever they like so in comes Alliance to operate these routes.

[FlightBoy787]

How many A330 will stay on the Transcontinental routes now some have be deployed onto the daily MEL/HKG services ?

[Riding the Goat]

I hear Jetgo are the likely ones to take on this work on there own, maybe with a VA codeshare to circumvent the EBA clauses.

[Going Nowhere]

Might explain their recent ad for crew due to Brisbane expansion.

[chuboy]

Jetgo the replacement with their fleet of E-jets? You couldn't make it up

[Falling Leaf]

Virgin still had the aspirational goal of becoming Australia's airline of choice...

How can that be the case when you get rid of your 100 seater with no clear alternative operator in place who will fly your pax around with the same product and with a VA paint job on the skin.

Ditto for the ATR, reduce the fleet by 3/4 therefore basically giving up everything north of Coffs Harbour.

How can you be Australia's airline of choice when you've either given up on regional or you are going to shovel your pax onto other operators with different product and branding?

Maybe all this 'strategy' is nothing more then a fire sale to keep the doors open until the last folly (HK from MEL and SYD) finally sinks the listing ship?

[Lurker2]

Wonder what this all means for the cadet program which supposed to be bought back to life this year.

[BPA]

Jetgo the replacement with their fleet of E-jets? You couldn't make it up

Ejets are the E170-195 family and the E135-145 are ERJs (Embraer Regional Jets).

Jetgo are going to need another 6-8 aircraft by July if they want to take over the runs and I can't see that happening.

Alliance can offer the F50, F70 or the F100.

[blumoon]

Might be a capacity hole opening up where Q can put more Qlink 717's into use on the East coast? If only they could find more from what mates in the game tell me

[chuboy]

ASX announcement today confirming Alliance will be flying BDB, GLT, MOV, PQQ with VA flight nos. In addition to the wet lease flying to Cloncurry, Mt Isa, and Rocky.

Happy days...

[B772]

Alliance shares up 24 % today. 69c to 85c.

[Goat Whisperer]

Pretty soon Alliance will be able to buy VA. Probably to shut it down.

[wheels_down]

Rebrand Virgin as Tiger.

Makes more money plus kills off the orange cancer.

[Falling Leaf]

The 'alliance' with Alliance is supposedly for 12 months....

What then? The company portray this as a crewing resource issue, which is part of the problem, but when they restore the pilot numbers, what do they have to re-commence those 70-100 seat routes in QLD that Alliance are supposedly covering as a temporary issue....?

The answer is nothing. Therefore this must be a deliberate strategy all along to contract out the 70-100 seater market...

In other words, this arrangement is as 'temporary' as the Federal budgets deficits are promised to be.

[B772]

The inside word is John Borghetti is expected to resign in September joining his mate James Hogan in the unemployed queue.

[Falling Leaf]

The inside word is John Borghetti is expected to resign in September

That has been talked about for the past 2 years....hope this time it's more then a rumour.

[The Bullwinkle]

That has been talked about for the past 2 years....hope this time it's more then a rumour.
Can't come quickly enough.
Unfortunately it's probably too little too late, the damage has been done!

[AuzPilot]

Well Boeing you're not correct in that,

Whilst I some what agree, the wet lease clause does state that there will be no wet leasing or subcontracting on routes operated by VARA, July 17th these routes will not be operated by VARA ATR 72 aircraft, unless, they bring the F100 or A320 from the west coast. July 18th VA can get whom ever they like so in comes Alliance to operate these routes.

Big announcement yesterday from Virgin and Alliance. Apparently, even bigger things to come.
Virgin Australia hands regional routes to Alliance (http://www.airlineratings.com/news.php?id=1224)

[Berealgetreal]

There goes what, 30-40 commands someone already in the group has done their time for?

Same story for 7 years, why stop now?

unemployed queue.
As multi-millionaires.

[Ken Borough]

The operation of the regional Queensland and wet-lease flights will acquire an additional three operational aircraft that have already been acquired from Austrian Airlines,’’ Alliance said in a statement to the Australian Stock Exchange. “ - See more at: Virgin Australia hands regional routes to Alliance (http://www.airlineratings.com/news.php?id=1224#sthash.MKuqOU1c.dpuf)

What in hell does this mean?

[Goat Whisperer]

Ken, I'm no doctor, but I take its as the additional contracted flying will require a number of jets that is greater than two but smaller than four.

This will entail getting this number jets operationally active from a currently-inactive fleet of Fokkers purchased from an airline representing some unknowable country ostensibly between Germany and Hungary.

[Ken Borough]

GW,

I know what they are trying to say but how is it possible to 'acquire an additional three operational aircraft that have already been acquired'. I hope their operational standards are better than their journalistic skills.

[Falling Leaf]

So the AFAP is going to do some analysis to see whether totally sub-contracting out your 100 seater market (VARA in WA, Alliance East Coast) and almost completely sub contracting out your regional market (WA, QLD) constitutes a breach of the EBA job security provisions....

It would be funny if this **** wasn't real.

[Going Nowhere]

I'm guessing that the first aquire should read 'require'.

[coaldemon]

At the end of it all the AFAP won't be able to do much. A court order saying keep the loss making route running will not go far.

[grrowler]

Subcontracting makes a loss making route profitable? Were they even loss making? Do the unions express "crossness" while the company continues to do whatever they wish regardless of what's written in agreements? Is more "crossness" expressed over issues that may/ may not affect certain resource groups than some of the smaller ones?

[TWOTBAGS]

Subcontracting makes a loss making route profitable? Were they even loss making?

This story has so much more to give......

The route revenue detail and pax numbers are known, the company has determined that while the revenue may cover the OPEX the revenue does not cover the CAPEX on the existing equipment.

Depending upon how this is viewed by the bean counters and who is liable for the investment of CAPEX, the shareholders or the company. This is what has killed the ATR in this country..... QLD is just the start.

When QF renewed the 717 with Cobham and then VA ditched the 190, they simply confirmed what everyone reading this needs to understand.....
The CAPEX required, the market volume, yields, utilisation, slot availability, directionality and simply how much the punters behind you are willing to pay and come out with one equation....

The Australian Regional market will only sustain the use of preowned (jets) ie significantly lower CAPEX equipment.

This is why your regular punter is getting on a jet that has not been in production for 20 years. Alliance, Network, Vara are all only using this equipment because its the only stuff our market pricing will sustain.

VA is now on the slippery merry go round of what is a defunct regional network where they cant make money with the regular toys. Outsourcing to QQ is a smoke screen for both companies because the OPEX for these sectors with the F70/100 simply does not equate to the known route revenue detail.

The company is trying to stay alive, the crews think they are getting screwed by the company but it comes down to how much people are willing to pay for a service in the first place.

Remember what airfares were like 15 years ago..... add in a bunch of Gen Y expectation and smattering of the smartest men in the room.

The race to the bottom is certainly looking interesting, who will be the next to sip the poison chalice>>

:E

[airdualbleedfault]

VARA in the west
Sorry Fallingleaf, could you please explain to me how you sub contract flying out to a wholly owned subsidiary?

[Snakecharma]

Twotbags

The only problem with your theory is that the aeroplanes were, for the most part, owned and the costs were already sunk. The crews were in place, the sim was in place, the engineers had sorted the airframe out and it was running reliably, the punters loved the aeroplane as did the majority of crews.

The only one that didn't like the ejet was one man in particular, for reasons best known to himself.

The capital cost of those aeroplanes, while more than a F100, was significantly less than a 737 and similarly it was cheaper to run, crews were cheaper, air nav charges were cheaper, it burnt less fuel than either a F100 or a 737, and giving them away just to not see them making the tarmac look untidy is a false economy in my opinion.

I dont understand the logic of contracting work out. The contracted party has to make a profit and at the end of the day the only major input cost differences are the manpower (which in my opinion is a marginal and temporary cost reduction) and airframe capital cost.

Fuel is much the same, air nav charges are much the same, maintenance is more often than not more expensive due to the older airframes, the other operator normally has to duplicate ops, crewing, nav/flight planning, load control, management and engineering functions and the other operator usually tries to do the job on a cost plus basis so there is no real incentive for them to do things as efficiently as possible.

To me, the smarter, though seemingly outdated, move is to do the work yourself, get the economies of scale associated with using your own infrastructure which is already in place and if needed making small, incremental, increases in manpower in the various areas. Morale of your troops is improved because they see the work staying in-house, the risk is better managed as you have control of the end to end process rather than plonking your brand on a machine operated by someone else who doesn't care as much about your brand as you do.

But what do i know :)

[Falling Leaf]

Sorry Fallingleaf, could you please explain to me how you sub contract flying out to a wholly owned subsidiary?

While technically you are correct, my argument is addressed at the companies assertion when they closed the Perth Ejet base that 'all Ejet flying will be done by the 737'. This was clearly not the case. The same lie was trotted out again to justify the Ejet decommissioning.

So why VARA may be wholly owned, all those 'Ejet' equivalent commands which are now on a F100 are not really available to VAA flight crew as every FO at VARA at the time of integration has first dibs. So in practical terms, the job security is not really there.

[regional_flyer]

What in hell does this mean?

It's a typo. The first 'acquire' should be 'require'. The actual announcement posted on the ASX website has it written correctly.

[topend3]

Virgin Australia, Alliance Airlines charter partnership gets ACCC approval | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/05/virgin-australia-alliance-airlines-charter-partnership-gets-accc-approval/)

[The Bullwinkle]

The ACCC has approved the alliance for a five-year period until June 9 2022.
I can't imagine Virgin being around that long!