ADSB Ground Stations under the J Curve?

[Dick Smith]

Can someone post a map showing the number of ADSB Ground Stations that have been installed by Airservices Australia under the so called J Curve.

The reason I ask this is not so long ago when I was heading into Canberra, the controller said there was no ADSB Station there and at other times between Cooma and Sale I dropped out of ADSB coverage at over 8,000 feet.

The USA has had to install over 600 ADSB Ground Stations to give reasonable coverage on roughly the same land mass as the continent of Australia.

Look forward to seeing the diagram.

By the way, we still don’t have an answer on whether the performance bonuses of senior staff at Airservices are linked to the early mandate for ADSB in Australia. As every day goes by without an answer, I’m feeling more and more sure that that’s what’s going on – and it certainly smells!

[Ixixly]

Hey Dick,

These are a little bit out of date but closest I could find, hope they help.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/adsb_at_5000f_GM.jpg

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/adsb_at_10000ft_GM.jpg

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/adsb_at_20000ft_GM.jpg

[Capn Bloggs]

The USA has had to install over 600 ADSB Ground Stations to give reasonable coverage on roughly the same land mass as the continent of Australia.
Dick, the yanks need 600 stations because their landmass has people/aeroplanes all over it. You may be interested to know that we don't, mainly due to the complete lack of water (not to mention the temperature) and therefore people/need for aeroplanes over probably 80% of our landmass.

[Old Akro]

herefore people/need for aeroplanes over probably 80% of our landmass

Presumably if there are no people living on an area of land it doesn't matter if debris from an air-to-air collision because ADS-B can't see an aircraft to provide separation??

[Dick Smith]

Why the different colour under the J curve?

Is that for ADSB ground stations or is that SSR coverage?

[Old Akro]

This presentation by Thales suggests Australia will have 48 ground station sites vs the USA's 794. Sites, not stations. Some sites have multiple stations.

http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2012_SEA_BOB_ADSB_WG8/SP02_Thales%20ADS-B%20Ground%20Stations%20and%20Multi.pdf

On raw data thats approx 1 site per 12,000 km2 in the US and 160,000 km2 for Aus.

I think a difference is that Australia's focus is on providing full coverage above 30,000ft, Airservices has deployed ADS-B ground stations across Australia which provide almost nationwide air traffic surveillance capability at flight levels above FL300. whereas the US seems to be seeking to provide full coverage at 5,000ft.

[Frank Arouet]

Exactly where do I stand with separation and SAR at Oodnadatta. I recall ADSB was going to solve all lost aeroplane matters because ATC would be watching everyone. I really need to know this before next week.

[alphacentauri]

Dick,

Different colours over the J curve are for SSR coverage...

[Dick Smith]

So does that mean there are virtually no ADSB ground stations in the J curve?

So why have mandatory ADSB aircraft units in the J curve?

Looks like a huge con is going on

[Sector3]

ADS-B coverage | Airservices (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projects/ads-b/ads-b-coverage/)

[le Pingouin]

No Dick, it means those images are very out of date. For instance There is ADS-B coverage on the the ground at ML, BLT and WBL to name a few. ADS-B equipment was installed at Mt William in western Victoria, East Sale and Mount Tassie (in Gippsland) in late 2014.

https://newsroom.airservicesaustralia.com/releases/airservices-marks-a-decade-of-satellite-surveillance-technology


According to a rather newer image on page 11 of this document there is ADS-B coverage at 5,000ft from north of Brisbane around to west of Adelaide with the exception of a few gaps.

http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP09%20Australian%2010%20years%20Greg.pdf


No con, just a lack of Googling on your part.


As to bonuses why would I, as a lowly ATC, be privy to the specifics of that sort of information? No-one here is hiding anything, we just don't know. I'd guess it was subject to a bonus, but that's the way all such projects work.

[willadvise]

So does that mean there are virtually no ADSB ground stations in the J curve?

So why have mandatory ADSB aircraft units in the J curve?

Looks like a huge con is going on

Dick I have disagreed with you on almost everything over the years. Finally I think you have got one right.
The IFR mandate should be delayed until the cost comes down and more ground stations installed so that it actually useful for light aircraft. ASA had a perfect opportunity to install ADSB at every VHF radio site in 2010 when every radio was replaced as part of the VHFSUP project. It would have made perfect sense to add ADSB at this time and probably much cheaper than retro fitting. This would have mean that if you were in VHF range we could have you identified and provided you with a service.

Re Bonuses for ADSB rollout. Check out hansard (http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;adv=yes;orderBy=date-eFirst;page=4;query=Dataset%3AcomSen,estimate;rec=5;resCount =Default) from latest senate estimates. I believe they are actually talking about ADSB, not ATSB as transcribed.

Senator XENOPHON: Got it. Going back to the issue of the ATSB, does the ATSB make up any part of those at-risk components?

Mr Harfield : No, it does not.

Senator XENOPHON: Not at all?

Mr Harfield : No. The reason I took it on notice the last time when you asked that was that I was not familiar with specific packages. In review of that, it is not the case in regard to ATSB.

Senator XENOPHON: So whether ATSB rolls out or not has no impact at all on the remuneration one way or the other?

Mr Harfield : Correct.

[CaptainMidnight]

Old Akro said:
This presentation by Thales suggests Australia will have 48 ground station The presentation may be out of date?

There are already 60-something ADS-B stations and another 13 underway, and more if necessary to fill gaps.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Interesting. TSO C199 (http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/enigma-avionics-reveals-low-cost-ads-b-system)

Australian Flying article on Enigma

[Old Akro]

There are already 60-something ADS-B stations and another 13 underway, and more if necessary to fill gaps.

Count the round colour splashes on the AsA map and you get about 44. Don't forget there is a difference between sites & stations. Some sites have multiple stations (presumably for traffic handling in high traffic areas).

And.. fill the gaps at what altitude? The only statement I can find is that AsA has the objective of full coverage at 30,000ft. Bugger all use for GA who are bearing the cost burden.

[CaptainMidnight]

The maps are somewhat outdated and don't show all stations and sites.

Go here and look for ADS-B fact sheet:

Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast | Airservices (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projects/ads-b/)

Clearedtoreenter I recall you've posted a number of times you don't get coverage around Dubbo, and it was suggested you call the ADS-B hotline, advise the situation and ask when a station will be going in there.

How did you get on with that?

[Old Akro]

CTE

The fact sheet only lists the number of stations, not the number of sites. It says there are currently 61 stations.

The Thales presentation that you declared out of date says we were due to have 96 stations over 48 sites.

http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2012_SEA_BOB_ADSB_WG8/SP02_Thales%20ADS-B%20Ground%20Stations%20and%20Multi.pdf

Does that mean that AsA is actually behind in its roll out?

[CaptainMidnight]

Beats me. I would think the number of sites would be key thing re coverage.

Call the ADS-B hotline and ask 'em.

[Old Akro]

I would think the number of sites would be key thing re coverage

I agree - but you have been quoting the number of stations, not the number of sites.

There are approx 40 - 48 SITES in Australia compared with 794 SITES in the USA.