New all in one ADSB Garmin

[sillograph]

Nice to see Garmin have brought this out today on Avweb.

Apparently responding to buyer complaints about complex ADS-B Out solutions that require expensive WAAS upgrades, Garmin International has announced two all-in-one transponders that will allow owners who don’t have WAAS GPS receivers to upgrade to ADS-B Out as simply as possible. One version of the new product combines both In and Out in a single box, with the option of onboard WAAS GPS, while a second is a less expensive Out only solution.

The GTX 345/335 are extended-squitter Mode S transponders that will meet the 2020 mandate for ADS-B Out. For owners who don’t have a WAAS GPS source in the airplane—and that’s many—the transponders will also offer the option of onboard WAAS sources, significantly broadening the market appeal.

[Ixixly]

Great for the Americans who have till 2020 to upgrade...not so useful here in Aus for everyone scrambling to meet the requirements! Perhaps why the FAA were smart enough to give till 2020...

[Old Akro]

Cleared to enter is soo right.

And its not the cost of the box that's expensive. Its the install cost and the list of associated things that need to be upgraded, from antenna co-ax to altitude encoders.

[27/09]

Am I having a Rip Van Winkle moment?

When did WAAS (SBAS) become available in this part of the world? Have I missed something?

How will this product be any use in this neck of the woods?

[LeadSled]

When did WAAS (SBAS) become available in this part of the world? Have I missed something?

What that really means to us is C145/146 GPS, not C129.

Tootle pip!!

[gerry111]

"Won't help at all when the NDBs and VORs go."


We were at YBKE three weeks ago and the NDB towers, electronics boxes and aerial looked brand new. And yes, it worked!


So what's going on?

[27/09]

Clearedtoreenter; No. The WAAS GPS in this new product is just a blind position sensor. It's role is simply to provide the ADS-B with a higher integrity GPS position to broadcast. Non WAAS/FDE sensors are deemed insifficiently reliable in the mandate. WAAS is completely superfluous for navigation in this part if the world.... But we still have to pay for it.

Are we talking integrity or accuracy here? FDE is integrity WAAS is accuracy. While they may come in the same package you don't need WAAS for FDE.

All the info I read says WAAS GPS, which to me means you need WAAS to be ADSB compliant. Perhaps I've read it wrongly.

By the way I have heard WASS (SBAS) might be coming our way.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Or, also from Avweb, this 'all singing all dancing' product from L-3 Products, the Lynx...

Home L3 ADS-B Lynx (http://l-3lynx.com/)

Only the price is not highlighted, but IF CASA had just waited a bit, for all of these to be developed and costed as the US 'deadline' approaches...???

Cheers:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Aren't you better to talk TSO129 vs TSO145 rather than non-WAAS vs WAAS, given that we don't have WAAS available to us in Oz but we do have TSO145 GPSs?

Dr :8

[Ixixly]

It's how the FAA seem to refer to them all the time. I assumed it was the fact that you wouldn't design a TSO 145 without WAAS capability so the two have become synonymous with each other, ie if it has WAAS it's at least 145 and if it's 145 it'll have WAAS or something like that.

[KittyKatKaper]

-> Ex FSO GRIFFO, that Lynx NGT-9000 is being sold by Gulf Coast Avionics for about USD9500., then add $ for gst/freight/installation/panel rearrangement/drawings and fixing faults caused by installation.

[27/09]

Clearedtoreenter: SBAS coming our way? Pigs might fly. Would be nice though.... A 3D coupled approach into Bankstown... Dreamin

You may well see those pigs fly.

WAAS (SBAS) is highly likely to come downunder, and not because of aviation but because it is an enabler for other transport systems e.g driverless vehicles and other technology to do with terra firma based transport. Aviation will be a relatively small user.

Right now NZ and OZ are about the only two places in the world without an SBAS system or immediate plans for one.

I'll stand back now and wait for Tom Imrich to pitch in and give his anti SBAS point of view.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thanks Mr Kx3,

I did read that the prices range from USD2K for the most basic VFR output system, up to around 20K for the 'all singin' all dancin' equipment, plus installation etc....and if in AUS, IF it was 'suitable', add mucho more for the 'necessary' approvals, engineering orders etc...

The point being that CASA have certainly 'jumped the gun' and screwed us - royally!

The volume of sales in the US alone will guarantee cheaper units - eventually.

At the recent CASA Seminar at JT, I did ask Mr Skidmore if there was any intention of mandating ADSB for VFR aircraft - Tiger Moth types specifically - and he replied that he was not aware of any plans to do so..... But I could not see if his fingers were crossed or not.....

No Cheers Yet..:ugh:

[Kiwiconehead]

I did read that the prices range from USD2K for the most basic VFR output system, up to around 20K for the 'all singin' all dancin' equipment, plus installation etc....

The other side of the coin is the cheapest units in the USA are the 978 MHz UAT systems for GA use below 18,000ft like the Freeflight Ranger systems

Although apparently 2 thirds of installations in the USA are 1090MHz.

All-in-one panel mount 1090 is only the new Garmin and L3 Lynx - apparently L3 are revising their pricing for 2016.

But again, we are 3 years early and there are still units coming to market.

[Tinstaafl]

The problem is that the 900 MHz class UART is only for use within the US below FL180. That's one of the reasons 1090ES is popular - if you fly outside the US or in the flight levels then 1090 is mandatory. Also, there are many Garmin transponders in service (the 330 is very common here) that can be upgraded to 1090ES for about US$1k if you already have a WAAS GPS, making it a relatively cheap option. You don't get the data 'in' that the UART provides, but XM weather is also a very, very common accessory.

[Old Akro]

WAAS (SBAS) is highly likely to come downunder

WAAS is already here - but only for marine use! There are a number of land based, sea facing stations.

AMSA seems to be much better sorted than CASA.

[no_one]

Old Arko,

Do you mean dGPS?
https://www.amsa.gov.au/navigation/services/dgps/

Similar result to WAAS but different....

[Eyrie]

Griffo,
Skidmore has been reported as saying that ADSB for VFR would be wonderful. It was in Australian Flying I think in a story about the Enigma unit.
What is really needed for VFR as a Flarm with somewhat better range. Around 20nm is all you need for adequate warning of potential conflicting traffic. Even 10nm would do.
No interaction with the ATC system, hence no need for expensive super integrity monitored GPS, no pressure altitude required either. All the GPS receivers in a given small area will see the same signals and hence provide compatible solutions. Close range collision avoidance is interested in RELATIVE position not ABSOLUTE position like the ADSB system.

[27/09]

Old Akro: WAAS is already here - but only for marine use! There are a number of land based, sea facing stations.

AMSA seems to be much better sorted than CASA.

There is presently no WAAS down this way. Probably differential GPS stations that you're talking about. Nothing to do with the relative abilities of CASA or AMSA. DGPS isn't all that practical for aviation due to the number of ground stations that would be needed.

The ground stations for WASS (SBAS) point at a geostationary satellite which rebroadcasts the correction signal to the GPS receivers.

SBAS when it comes to Australasia will be driven by government transport agencies like the Ministry of Transport here in NZ. It's reason for introduction will be multi disciplinary covering much more than just aviation. NZCAA, CASA, Airways, Air Services, will be small parts of a much bigger wheel.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thanks Mr E,

And a FLARM costs how much? Plus the crap to fit, engineering order etc..??

I still prefer the eyeball mk 1 for my Tiger, which I might add, is painted a bright 'training yellow', and does not move at a substantial MACH no.......

Cheers:ok:

[Old Akro]

There is presently no WAAS down this way. Probably differential GPS stations that you're talking about

WAAS is a DGPS system created by Raytheon for the FAA. Nothing more, nothing less.

The point is: if AMSA can do it for boats, why can't CASA do it for aircraft??

[27/09]

Old Akro: WAAS is a DGPS system created by Raytheon for the FAA. Nothing more, nothing less.

The point is: if AMSA can do it for boats, why can't CASA do it for aircraft??


The US and Canadian Coast Guards have a similar system to which you refer.

These G GPS systems are GBAS (Ground Based Augmentation Systems) and are vastly different in that way they operate compared to WAAS which is SBAS (Space Based Augmentation Systems). An SBAS system is more expensive to set up due to the geostationary satellite component.

D GPS has been used in agricultural aviation for years using a local transmitter for correction.

The trouble with with a GBAS system is its coverage is very localised. Ask any boatie how well the D GPS works once they're well off shore.

It is likely the marine D GPS systems in the US and Canada will be switched off as they have been superseded by WAAS which is achieving similar accuracy over a much wider area.

While being not quite so accurate as some GBAS systems SBAS is the best system for aviation giving a very good level of accuracy over a wide area.

I don't think your point is valid re the GBAS being provided for marine and the current lack of SBAS for aviation. One is relatively easy and cheap to set up the other while probably being more cost effective long term requires more technology and up front cost

[Eyrie]

Griffo, the original Flarm as used in gliders was under A$1000 and was the size of a packet of cigarettes sitting on top of the glareshield. A number of LEDs in a circle indicated which direction to look and two more gave relative altitude. Both on, means the target is co-altitude.
Only problem was the little low power transmitter and airframe shielding. Different frequency and more power would fix that.
Yeah, I keep a good lookout too, but I keep seeing people who don't see me and who should have.

[7478ti]

The new Garmin XPDR is still an utter waste of money. The FAA's faulty requirements for NIC and NAC (via RTCA DO-260B and 91.225/91.227) are still massively and unnecessarily OVERSPECIFIED, and unjustified. US Airlines are likely going to get relief to at least 2026 anyway, and the chances of the 2020 compliance date actually holding for the rest of US airspace users (both GA and military and foreign) are virtually nil, since it especially would crush the US GA fleet, which is not equipping at anything like the needed rate to comply by 2020. Hopefully the Schuster Bill will pass, and the FAA will itself be broken up, with a separate ANSP formed, and then an effort can be mounted to finally fix the massively fouled up NextGen which is heading straight for a massive $40B failure (and in turn, fix elements like the FAA's seriously faulty ADS program - e.g., ADS-R [ADS ridiculous?], and LPV [laterally polluting vermin], and WAAS [worthless area augmentation system]), none of which are necessary, appropriate, or efficient at this point [with nearly 100 SVs to be available globally, and capabilities like GBAS/GLS evolving on top of all those SVs].

[27/09]

Hello Tom, I see you're back.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thankyou Mr E,
I still won't be spending the grand.....(If I can help it.....)

But thanks again anyway.

Cheers:ok:

[7478ti]

Long live RNP and GLS, ...and the memory of obsolete, unnecessary, outrageously expensive WAAS, LPV, ....and soon even ILS!!!

O:)