FDT violations, need some opinions

[Jar xx]

The company I work for is since a couple of months under supervision of the authorities. There have been numerous violations of the Flight Duty and Rest times in our company.

Every month the company has to send all the records of the Flight, Duty and Rest times to the authorities now, so that they can keep track of the things. We as pilots have to keep our FDT times in a record, online. Accessible by the pilot himself and management.

I have seen all the communication between my company and the CAA, and I know which person in the CAA is involved with the investigation in our company. I'm 'just' a pilot (FO) with no management role or anything. I just saw the communication by chance.

In January multiple pilots made violations on a single day. We had less then the required rest at homebase to attend our yearly trainingday, the next day.
I informed the company that I would be unable to attend my training because of my required rest time. The answer I received was that it would be either attend the training, or go home and look for a different place to work.
I work as a freelancer, so in theory they could do this. All our pilots work as freelancer so we are continously threatened with our jobs by management.
So I choose to attend the trainingday, I can't risk loosing my income...

Last week I received a phonecall from my Flight Operation Manager (FOM), asking if I was willing to remove my trainingday out of my records of Flight and Duty, cause this would cause difficulties with the CAA. I refused and said that I was not willing to help with fraud. The FOM informed me that if I wouldn't do it, he would do it himself.
I just checked my records for the previous month...no more trainingday in my record. So most probably my FOM removed this record...

So my question is, what should I do?
Should I approach the investigator with the local CAA, keeping in mind that I work as a freelancer, and I could loose my source of income.
Or should I keep my mouth shut and just deal with it.

[cavok_flyer]

Fortunately, I am not in the position you are, however, after being in business for a number of years, and with the amount of digitalization over the years, eventually it will come out. You have travel records to the training right? Pay with a CC? Train ticket? Buy lunch in the cantine? What would happen if you get fired from your employer for not attending the training course? Hey, buddy, we do not see the training day in your log. There's the door. Or: Oh hello Mr. CAA, why yes, I attended the training day. Why it is not in the log? Dunno (long uncomfortable silence follows).

I would start to look for another position and blow the :mad: whistle on those :mad: pieces of :mad:. They are not under suspension because of no good reason REGARDLESS of how they may to explain it to everyone. And if they threaten pilots (or any other employee) who do are doing their job they best they can with the equipment that is provided, then you really can't count on retiring with them at the age of 65. Or do you see yourself working for them for the rest of your life? Didn't think so...

[Sepp]

I would start to look for another position and blow the :mad: whistle on those :mad: pieces of :mad:.

Me too. They ought to be stopped dead in their tracks - everyone (or, most people) will accept an error or misunderstanding but this is a systematic and deliberate breach of the rules; by knowing this is happening and not reporting it, you might very well find yourself deemed to have colluded in the offence.

If the worst happened and one of you had a prang they sure as hell wouldn't support you, would they? :mad: 'em, hang 'em out to dry.

[Deep and fast]

I'm a little confused. Can you clarify?
The pilot did a flight duty, then had below minimum rest before a training day. Was the training day a ground based/classroom type training?
You may have been out of hours to operate a flight but other things such as positioning etc can be done but it then becomes cumulative duty, with the required rest to follow before flight duties may commence.


As for removing anything done at the behest of the company from the duty records, well I think that is a serious breach of the requirements of the operator and gross misconduct of the responsible manager and should a prang happen would come under the heading of corporate manslaughter if the very worst happened.

[space-shuttle-driver]

JAR_XX,
My 0,02EUR worth:
i. be company-minded. Calling in to bluntly refuse to come to training is not a company-minded action. By that, you created a reaction of the company and at the end of the day both parties lose.
ii. look out for another job, good luck with that! Jobs are scare, and you will have no guarantee that your new job will be any better.
iii. collect evidence, hard evidence. As good as your story is, it is only a story if you don't have hard facts to prove your statements. You must be able to present something the company lawyer cannot tear up in court or in front of the CAA

[Hawker 800]

Per chance, would you be referring to a middle European very small Cessna jet operator by any chance?

[Journey Man]

Extremely myopic, CL300. It appears it is a good job you're out of it.

[Delta12]

Everyone is braking, bending them anyway.

WRONG !!

I happen to work for the biggest outfit in Europe and can assure you that there is no 'breaking and bending'

Report them to the CAA, find another job !
Do not forget that ultimately it is the responsibility of the Crew to watch out for their duty time, if something goes wrong you will be taking the biggest hit !

And then on top, when they are ok with fraud on duty time, how about maintenance, respecting legal requirements etc etc ?

[FlyingGasMain]

Hi Jar,

I sympathise with you ! It doesn't sound like a great management attitude.

I would recommend looking around for another company to work for, one that doesn't play fast and loose where FTLS are concerned.

If there is a confidential reporting system run by the CAA you could choose to use that as well.

FGM

[Global_Global]

You are part of the team or you are not, as long as the plane is fit to fly, fly it. as long as YOU are rested , FLY !

Right and your underlying theme is that it is ok to work for a company that break the rules. Even worse a company that put pressure on you to break their own rules which in fact will mean that the moment you are found out that YOU will loose your licence and YOU are liable :rolleyes::rolleyes:

You are a scary bugger C300 and I rather not have people like you on board as your behaviour is the reason why we are getting more and more rules and oversight and the reason we are being undercut by pilots and operators that are "not tired" and break the rules proper operators follow :suspect:

Rant over :mad:

[imriozer]

A question regarding office days/training days.
If you work in the office for 7 days writing a new manual or MEL or whatever you can't fly the next day (or how many days allowed by your authority)?
If your wife tells you to clean your house for 8 days you can fly the other day.
If you work for the company as a pilot on the paycheck and for your work as a "secretary" the other company (your or anybody else) issue invoices for the services provided for them, is that legal ?

When your going for initial training, you are on duty for 3-4 weeks, how is that legal?

A CEO/CHEIF PILOT/COO is in duty everyday all day they never rest and they still fly...

[imriozer]

The basic idea of FDT is safety and not for social purposes.
If you haven't flown on that day and got to sleep before and after I don't think it should be a problem (I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS THE LEGAL WAY, just my 2¢)

[Deep and fast]

Rest is required before commencing an FDP.
All the other stuff is immaterial to the authority subject to the maximum limits not being exceeded.

[Jar xx]

Guys,

first of all thanks for your input.

As always multiple interpretations are possible.

@SPACE_SHUTTLE_DRIVER,
It's funny that you use the word company minded.

That's the word management always uses against us. We (pilots) are lazy and only think about ourselves...we are not company minded...

But let's give you my point of view. Being company minded only gives the company a short-term win. But will always end up in a long-term loss.
Several pilots were so company minded here that they falsified the aircraft logbook times to make a duty LEGAL on paper. The CAA got interested when they started comparing the aircraft logbook times with the actual CFMU times and find discrepancies.

You see, short-term win, long-term loss. So don't start about being company minded. The reason I informed them that I wouldn't be able to attend the trainingday was merely to keep my own conscience clean. It was not a incident on itself, it's a structural problem. Otherwise I wouldn't respond so bluntly, obviously.

I started collecting evidence, but thanks for the tip:ok:

@HAWKER 800,
no this is not correct. We don't operate any Cessna's.

@FLYINGGASMAN,
unfortunately the CAA where the company is based doesn't have a confidential reporting system. Or maybe I'm unable to find it because it's all in the native language, which I don't speak.

[Kelly Hopper]

To me, it's straightforward. They give you a rule book. They expect (demand) that you to play by the rules. Likewise I expect them too also.
When they disregard the rulebook because it doesn't suit them on the day all bets are off. Now you are in no mans land. Stand up to them as you should and must legally and you will find yourself out of a job ( thanks cumlux). You get no thanks from anyone. The industry is in a shocking state and personally I cannot wait to get out!

[His dudeness]

They expect (demand) that you to play by the rules. Likewise I expect them too also.
When they disregard the rulebook because it doesn't suit them on the day all bets are off. Now you are in no mans land.

Welcome to the world.

You must decide what you can take and what you can´t. Just don´t expect neither mercy nor help from ***** in the authorities.

It would take one thing and one thing ONLY to make them obey the rules and I preach that since ages:

make the aircraft operators pay the training especially type ratings.

THEN they think twice before kickin the butt of an employee.

@CL300: hope you are well now ? That would be the important thing, fukc flying...

[Moonwalker]

I've seen this happening with a guy I know. He recorded all conversation with the management, duty times etc. One day he said no and got fired. Then he went to his lawyer. Took them to court and got a massive amount of money.

[rigpiggy]

ding ding ding ding ding, we have a winner.

I have the android phone recorder app, and it is used for any interaction with company, or govt officials, banks etc........

remember, your only paranoid if your wrong

[No Fly Zone]

If you work for a company that will falsify training time, work time and rest time, what else a they messing with? In your shoes, I think I'd be paying Very Close attention to some of the more important Mx Logbook entries, even verifying some item when possible. Best wishes and I hope you are looking for or have found a new job by now...

[Sillert,V.I.]

It's been said many times, but you'd be well advised to protect your life, your licence and your job, in that specific order.

What's being described here is putting your job before your licence and your life.