Thai Airlines - please teach us how to fly

[NoAndThen]

Straight from the Boeing newsletter.

Also, they admit we are the worst airline operating in the USA, directly from the FAA.

Solution: Maybe we should ban all manual flying. Because that worked so well with Asiana.

This place sucks.

[CXtreme]

Maybe if they start training and stop scoring in the sim it will improve. Vol 8 or fail.

[asianeagle]

So we've had the SAME personalities in charge of "training" for at least the last 15-20yrs. The good ones having been forced out or frustrated out.

Cut backs and serious decline in standards makes me think it's time for change at the top of the training ladder, not creating more positions for the same old same old.....

Lets bring in some fresh blood who can actually teach people to fly big jets.....

oh wait hang on.... there's a training ban, I wonder why?? :}

[Frogman1484]

Especially on the Airbus :ok:

[CYRILJGROOVE]

I suspect they fly the carnarsie RNP AR regardless of approval or not. I often hear other carriers requesting it with the caveat " visual" added.

CX are not allowed to select it from the data base, and with our diminishing hand flying skills and lower experience levels the bleeding obvious results.

If TG are in fact utilizing the approach without approval......it is probably a good thing for all in the air and on the ground......if you know what I mean!

[Interested_Party]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0qRDscmKac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE

[ZFT]

I'm very confused with this thread. TG ceased flying to New York some years ago and ceased flying to LAX about 5 months ago. They have no USA operation remaining now!

[SweepTheLeg]

They are separate issues. The FAA has said we are the worst airline in terms of ATC deviations in the entire USA.

We have screwed up so many times in Zurich that the Swiss sent us some radar tracks of Thai compared to us and we're like "WTF??? Even Thai is doing better than you."

But don't worry the Fleet Office yammered about it and got some "likes."

[mngmt mole]

You start to get the feeling that something ominous and life-changing is about to happen to our operation. Every edge is fraying, and meanwhile management seem to think that spending money on new paint is equivalent to an 'industry leading' strategy. Rostering, leave, SOP's, housing, fatigue, training, checking, catering, maintenance, etc, etc. What a shambles. :ugh:

[Shep69]

A little polish, a little paint
Makes things look like what they ain't.

[The FUB]

you cannot polish a turd. The crew out of Zurich should be ashamed, nothing but a bunch of unprofessional muppets

[Cpt. Underpants]

you cannot polish a turd. The crew out of Zurich should be ashamed, nothing but a bunch of unprofessional muppets

https://youtu.be/yiJ9fy1qSFI

[OK4Wire]

I agree. Piss poor.

I can't remember: did we have many of these events when the 340 was plying this route?

[AQIS Boigu]

I agree. Piss poor.

I can't remember: did we have many of these events when the 340 was plying this route?

We didn't have any problems with the Canarsie either...

[Flying Clog]

Problem with spelling it though...

:D

[spleener]

Have to agree with the FUB.

Zurich:
No problem on the 'bus..... but the ground was a bit close in the turn.

Hang on, !! it was no problem on the Classic either.

What's changed for the B777? Too much hair gel??

[1200firm]

ZRH; get airborne, turn left asap.

You can't polish a turd but you can cover it in glitter.

[Glass Half Empty]

Probably a reason why the 747 fdap is so good, all the 'stars' have moved off it

[clear.right]

The problem isn't with the 777, it's the fact that our very inexperienced S/Os are now upgrading. The problem on the 777 is compounded by the fact that they aren't getting sectors. The events will continue, and will continue growing in frequency.
Zurich on the other hand, come on gents, there are 3 of you, plus the kid.... Someone needs to be paying attention.

[JammedStab]

Zurich wasn't that big a deal was it. As far as what I heard anyways, unless you have more details than I know.

[mngmt mole]

JammedStab, are you for real? Dozens of CX flights flew MILES off track on a specific SID. And you don't think that is a 'big deal' ? I hope you are nowhere near an airliner cockpit. CX needs a wholesale revamp of it's operation, and this is just one isolated example as to why.

[JammedStab]

JammedStab, are you for real? Dozens of CX flights flew MILES off track on a specific SID. And you don't think that is a 'big deal' ? I hope you are nowhere near an airliner cockpit. CX needs a wholesale revamp of it's operation, and this is just one isolated example as to why.

How many miles and why exactly did they do this?

I am not aware of the supposed dozens of examples either. Perhaps just rumour?

Updated...OK, I admit, I don't work for Cathay and was just trying to see if you would let out some of the details about the incident. Before, you tell me to buzz off, you might just prevent an incident by doing so instead of keeping it a secret only available to company persons.

Sounds to me like it is a bunch of pilots in your company that shouldn't be anywhere near an airliner cockpit actually(dozens of Cathay flights flew miles off the SID).

[Hellenic aviator]

The words training and CX are as synonymous as 'Mein Kampf' and 'The Bible'.

What do you expect when the 'trainers' are teaching new hires to draw mountain symbols for high MRA, boxes around FIR boundaries and a triangle for minimum diversion fuel, rather than more pressing issues such as "How do we calculate the adjusted ZFW if the RTOW becomes restricted?"

....Then we receive newsletters from the illustrious fleet office in a reactive manner as if the pilot group are to blame.

How about looking at the muppets in the 'training' department?

[Shep69]

This place historically hasn't hired slackers, and has some extremely well qualified and experienced pilots who have excelled much of their life and in most of their flying career. In CX and elsewhere.

Rather than beehatching about it and scoffing at fellow pilots anyone given any thought as to WHY what is happening IS really happening ? Or more importantly a few real solutions ? Rather than just looking at symptoms.

Or that the letter submitted in the not so distant past might have had some pretty significant Nostradamus qualities to it ?

Completely unstable rosters, multiple roster and body clock swaps, training maxed out, FTLs maxed out, many inexperienced folks coming in, incoherent scheduling dominated by crisis management, last minute swaps, no meaningful RPs, industrial strife, WOCL Ops as Ops normal, cobbled together crews going places they've never been while possibly fatigued, commuters displaced and fatigued by inane 'new' policies, family strife in not having any idea of where one is going to be when, people going sick to manage their own roster and health, etc.

What could possibly go wrong ?

[LongTimeInCX]

Regarding the normalisation of deviance, some may recall the early 340 flts into Zurich, or more correctly the interesting departures out of Zurich.
But this wasn't intentional deviance.

Despite the crew on return to HK frequently mentioning to management that whilst an all engines operating departure seemed somewhat sporty, the main concern was how does this work when you've lost an engine shortly after V1.
There was even a notice to crew at one point then put out, saying the gpws would go off, but just ignore it if you're at V2+10/V2 as appropriate. Alarm bells anyone?

The exact technicalities have faded after some 20 years, and any other oldie with greater recall is welcome to clarify the exact problem. However, I had an idea the fault lay in the RTOW data effectively being overly optimistic, or the actual thrust they were assuming was coming out of the engines was greater than it really was, and these may have been the PAL340's, but the net result was we were either underpowered or overweight depending on your point of view.

There was another peripheral clue that ATC controllers would often watch and take photos!

Sometimes it feels like they're all trying to kill us in one way or another?

Btw, shep 69 - spot on.

[OK4Wire]

Indeed. All good examples.

Another example of of 'normalisation of deviance': rostering to AFTLS.:O

[Good Business Sense]

Hi LONGTIMEINCX,

Yes, PAL340s which, as I remember, were -200 series aircraft - CX got the -300.

Error, in the perf data, I think - some 4-6 tonnes springs to mind.

.... and, without joking or exaggerating, the entire airport stopped to watch ! Subject of much banter with the fuel man, handling staff, cleaners etc etc prior to despatch.

It was like a Classic departure from runway 31 at Kai Tak in a typhoon using D4 bump thrust non-stop to Gatwick ..... only lower :-)

[Captain Dart]

Not just Zurich airport, but the town off the end of the runway as well. Everyone in the model shop would monitor the air band radio and step outside to watch CX depart. Very sporty on a hot day.

I remember going packs to LO to try and make levels out of Turkish airspace. The CX 340s seemed like rocket ships after those leased -200s went.

[anotherbusdriver]

Of course this is happening and going to keep happening.

People upgrading now have joined CX and had a lucky run on the long haul fleet their entire career, without any prior experience, being upgraded to heavy jet long haul Captain with approx 200 or so actual landings under their belts!!

This could all be alleviated by putting all crew through a Junior (regional) fleet then onto Senior (long haul) fleet programme. Let the young keen ones flog around Asia and ME, getting lots of sectors, lots of great exposure to all sorts of situations, and allow them to grow into experienced old buggers who then deserve to have the nice Senior fleet job.

It has always made sense in other airlines to do it this way. For a good reason. Also keep the troops happy.

[main_dog]

Absolutely. We need to second our JFOs to Dragon's 320 fleet to bounce around in China and get a better feel for weather, airplane handling and the general profession. Their experienced, surplus F/Os could eventually come over to us for a while for some RQ duties.

Even 2/3 years of four-sector days would increase their experience and confidence tenfold for the reat of their careers.

MD

[OK4Wire]

ABD and MD:

Good replies, both of them.

And why on earth did NR think that all the Captains over (say) age 60 would be satisfied living that sort of roster??

No wonder our Captain "retirements" (oh, all right, call them resignations) are currently running at roughly twice the planned number?

Simply not sustainable.:=

[Oasis]

When I went through jfo training, your upgrade would be onto the 330 or 777, both short haul fleets at the time, to gain experience in the region.
This was with crew already with jet time in a previous life.

Simply wrong to have brand spanking new cadets upgrade to a long haul fleet with 2-3 landings a month, if not less.
Sceduling can't be arsed to give them more sectors and we're so short of trainers that the flight consolidation sectors are now scheduled with regular (disgruntled) line captains in stead of with training captains like the way it was.

I see lots of Swiss cheese slices with lots of holes.

Stay frosty out there.

[geh065]

Actually I think the "reasons" are that the current Boeing CP likes to put stuff like this in his newsletter and the previous (and current) Airbus CP hardly puts anything in there apart from A350 stuff. Likely it had been happening for years and even if ATC were telling the company the "we are Cathay, we know best" attitude of old probably meant that it never went beyond the chief pilot's e-mail trash bin.

Even now if it wasn't for the newsletters no-one would know anything. ATC don't question those flights over the radio so even the crew themselves don't know they've done it.

[Pucka]

Shep..thanks for your comments…some of the trainers are pretty good and actually have stayed on the team for various reasons..some include the need with other jobs looming and others due to commitment. Those that do it to feed their ego…well, most of us know who they are and the young reptiles who are about to take their pretence into that world…sadly on the fleet that suffered no or little guidance or leadership from the CP at the time.
For those of us left..the roster burdens and instability every single month..are getting way out of hand. The 100 plus signatures of the PG letter went pretty much in to file 13 and to date..NOTHING has happened. Some clown is pretending to work through some hybrid working group to effect a "fix" but 3 months down the line..NOTHING has changed…genuine management? genuine training? genuine leadership..THAT has changed and sadly, causal to why we are where we are.. and the trainers worth their salt…that salt is running out..and when it does..how the mighty will fall..

[The FUB]

Thanks PUCKA


Those are my thoughts exactly.