Cx257

[Synchronize]

Okay so let me get this correct CX253 a 3man crew to Europe diverts to Copenhagen for a sick passenger who was thankfully okay
Then despite being in contract compliance the crew elect to use discretion to continue to UK Seriously how are we ever going to get this situation sorted if people keep helping out
There are 2 issues here
which set of duty time limits did the crew use because now we are talking 2 sectors so the max 3 man ULR no longer applies . The crew did not achieve the required rest due to the diversion
We are in contract compliance for a reason , to show the company that our goodwill is worth something but when crews extend to help out It is damaging to the rest of us . We also had a golden opportunity to make the 3 man a very expensive operation and hopefully put it to bed once and for all BUT NO here we have yet another crew helping out I give up

[BillytheKid]

Sounds like the company is justified in 3 man European ops if they can do the divert AND further use discretion. Well done chaps!:ugh:

[betpump5]

Another three clowns to add to the list.

[goathead]

When did this occur?
Unbelievable

[Loopdeloop]

It was the 253, not 257 so LON based crew. Given that info, it could only have been one of two Captains, and sure enough the company got lucky. Next thing you know he'll be going into training!
The big question remaining is "was it legal?"

[Arfur Dent]

Disgraceful and potentially illegal. 2 sectors AND 3 crew HKG - LHR?? :confused::= Names please..........

[Synchronize]

Sorry about the incorrect flight number But that aside can anyone explain to me which set of duty time limits were used and how it was legal
Secondly an engineering manager travelling as a passenger managed to get a quick turn around .
So Continuing with that logic . if I have a crew member travelling as a passenger then it's acceptable to use them as the 4 the crew member to achieve better rest if the operating crew are tired .

A golden opportunity to expose the very limited cost saving of 3 man crew vs 4 man wasted What a w-nker.

[Average Fool]

Great job! Way to save the day!

Maybe the crew could use the "hero" letters for mopping up the blood from stabbing their professional brethren in the back.

Discusting

[goathead]

Everyone keep calm
CAD is looking into it.

[Michael Hunt]

Did a bit of digging.
Looks like sign on time was 0555z and blocked on in London at 2207z.
I make that 16:12.
Legal? Yes
Safe or Smart?.... Probably not

[tyson744]

Two sectors gives TD of 14 hours, plus 2 discretion gives 16 hours. Not 16H12m

[Michael Hunt]

I was giving the boys the benefit of the doubt. The wording in AFTLs is pretty woolly as usual but I suspect the extra sector would attract the 45 minute penalty.
In which case...... Legal? NO and safe or smart? A resounding NO!

Do some questions need to be asked?
BTW whilst digging for the flight times etc. It appears the Capts. Real Time roster is blocked.

[Michael Hunt]

After a closer look at the AFTLS.
Two sectors would give 12:15 plus half the total in flight relief plus the 2hrs discretion.
So probably just snuck in.

Regardless not a brilliant idea in my humble opinion.

[Avinthenews]

Using the AOA app. Prev rest assumptions.

3hr bunk - 15:45 max FDP including 2 commanders discretion.
4hr bunk - 16:15 max

[SweepTheLeg]

If indeed the crew violated both FTLs as well as CC on this 3-man LHR, then the AOA themselves should press for charges against them from the HKCAD.

Absolutely pathetic.

[Average Fool]

I agree CR. how about the mention of getting in hot water with the FAA over not following clearances exactly???? The mention of slight deviations "because we've always done it this way".


Seems that bending the rules is a very big part of the CX culture.

[joblow]

Breaking the rules is okay ONLY when it benefits the company
However if anything had gone wrong in this instance those crew would have been thrown under the bus without hesitation.
Plus more than a 2 hour extension is only permitted in an emergency Don't think this counts as an emergency .

[White None]

Silberfuchs - howdya mean chap? NOT a challenge, just that in your role you're much more upto speed on AFTLs than a lot of us - if I'm correct in guessing your identity. What's your take on the max? Tnx WN.

[Sand Man]

Correct me if I'm wrong however it is half rest if rest is taken in a bunk >3 hours. The question that needs to asked is how much rest did they actually get? I suspect 1 or 2 got planned rest and the last did not therefore 1 of the 3 crew members would have been more limiting.

[Loopdeloop]

I would say CN & F/O got 3:50, maybe 4:00 at a stretch on the first sector, RQ rested the rest making it just legal within the AFTLS. Needed max discretion though which is madness IMHO at the end of a 3-man pattern!

[7478]

Sand Loop

I guess extension of FDP by acheiving in flight rest only applies to Normal Ops. Its irrelevant how much rest did the guys have on the flight in question, its a long haul.

[Sand Man]

7478 - Rest during LRO is irrelevant for 4 crew however we are talking about a bastardised combination of normal and long haul thinking with 3 crew. No wonder the company can do what it wants, not many seem to read the AFTLs close enough.

Next question is it legal and safe to burn out a P1 pilot on these type of flights? Not really the same as burning out an SO (no offence intended)

[7478]

Sand

Got you.

However, if you read the FTLs close enough, LRO by definition is SCHEDULED sector time >10 hrs.

So the flight itself was LRO regardless what happened after despatch.

So a combined Standard and Long range ops is not a valid argument.

[Sand Man]

7478

What are you on about? I'm not arguing that it's not LRO however what I'm saying is that the FTLs for 3 crew are based on table A/B which comes from standard operations, therefore 3 crew LRO IS a blend of LRO (14.45hr cap) and SO (table A/B). If you ask me this NEW LRO section has been purely developed to give airlines more flexibility while making it look like they are applying common sense rules. In reality we all know it is stretching the elastic band that little bit further and we all know what happens when you stretch them too far.

[AU-501]

I an very late to this and I just want to say from my part of the world
ie not Hong Kong I sympathise with Cx crew esp expats. Expat crew MADE CX WHAT IT IS TODAY. It was through the efforts of expat crew "working the rules"
To the max that enabled Cs to survive thru the 50's 60's70's and 80's it was in the 80's that the wobbles started (albeit very late 80's) after the early 90's aka the strike in oz that the reality set in. It was easier to get an atpl in oz then it was harder to get a job in oz because of a bunch of very comfortable pilots in oz that had been sitting on there asses doing sweet f a that were never going to win a dispute they had been dragged into. The entire airline pilot brother hood got dragged in that bitch session from then on.. But in HKG a bunch of dedicated boys and girls just got on with it management rubbed there hands whilst a bunch of pissed off kids come and accepted the big "B" and it it did not stop. I watched on ( with an oz atpl and bucket loads of good time ) whilst one after another paid for endorsements and worked for nothing- they are amongst you now and they are the biggest belly aching pricks on this website -from oz you know whom you are. Reap what you sow. And too the skippers that rolled on your mates may you drown in your heated south of London pools. And the ozzies that ****** over your g a others - you were never our mates you spilt kids you are reaping what you have planted. Bye now do your best

[Will IB Fayed]

Well that drivel was hard to read. Happy hour in the RSL?

[jetsam]

Three man CN,RQFO and SO. Is this legal? Company at highest level forced this crew to operate to a European port two days ago. Surely all had to have P1 ratings?
CAD may take a view.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

AFTLS Definitions
Augmented Crew
When three pilots are boarded for flights with a Scheduled Sector Time of 12 hours or more each pilot must be P1 rated on type

[Avinthenews]

How do you force a captain to break the rules?

CX289 currently scheduled at 12:45 therefore 3 P1 pilots must be boarded.

Flight times around 11:45 so with taxi will easily bust 12:00

Plus you can't arrive early (closed) or plan to arrive early (slot time rules) with a ludicrous CI flight plan to reduce the block time.

CAD where are you? :=

Oh that's right, break the rules as you see fit as long as you submit paperwork because we have no clue what the rules are.

I can't wait to see CN, JF/O & S/O on a 3 crew long haul.....

[Dilbert68]

It doesn't matter what the flight time is, the scheduled sector time is 12:45 so it is not legal.

All three pilots must be P1 rated on type.

[Oasis]

fra flight with 3 crew the other day, if facts were as I heard them (second hand), was unacceptable bullying IMO.
Never blindly believe any higher-up when they say "trust me, I've looked at the numbers, you're legal"

It's your name on the flight plan.Independently work it out, then make a decision.

[Progress Wanchai]

Apparently 4th crew member removed from cockpit just prior to pushback to cover another cluster fcuk elsewhere.


If anyone on the turd floor is to be believed, the sackings are Imminent.
Viv wanted nothing to do with it so quit and was marched out the door without being allowed a farewell message.
Captains and first offers only on the hit list. Hence the reason only second officers have been issued with iPads.
For a DFO who walked into cx claiming we had to improve our communications, the silence of the Friday Update was deafening.

Senior FOPS management are in their death throes.
While it's amusing to watch, don't stand too close.

[Dilbert68]

Sydneyman,

Don't need to ask MH, it's in the ops manual.

I couldn't care less about his loose, ever changing interpretation of Ops A.

[Bo Wing]

With an 1146 FLT TM, how do you complete this flight with 3 crew, P1 rated or not? No matter how I "twist" the figures, I still can't make them legally work. :confused:

[White None]

Huge loss - an absolute friend to crews, but at the same time CX will lose out, many many people will be sad to see her go under any circumstances.

[anotherbusdriver]

Thanks....

[oriental flyer]

I don't care to know the reason for her departure , she will be fondly remembered by everyone who came across her ,and she will be sorely missed
My only concern is that she is okay and that she will be happy in her new venture