The different airlines at Cathay

[prunedude]

The different airlines at Cathay Pacific:

Compare the differences of the airlines at Cathay. Those lucky enough to be on the 777, get to go to work 4 times a month and are on maximum overtime. A second officer on the 777 makes more money than an Airbus FO. A 777 FO makes more money than an Airbus captain.

The Airbus crews are doing up to to 30+ sectors in a month with minimum days off generally two pilot back of the clock to destinations like India and the the middle east or constant night turn arounds. Any good trip that comes to the airbus like a long stay in Japan are usually then given to the 777.

The 777 crews do 8 sectors in a month to Europe and NAM and half of that is in the bunk. The 777 crews hit their 900 hours and get a month or two off. The Airbus crews get their rosters manipulated by crew control if they look like going one hour into overtime to save the company money. There is plenty of scope to manipulate the Airbus rosters as there are so many sectors. 10+ roster changes in a month is not uncommon.

The Airbus crews doing 4 times as many sectors are far more likely to be called in to the office for their fuel uplift due to doing many more sectors in poor weather and to poor destinations. The 777 office looks after the concerns of their crews while the Airbus office does not. If you're on the Airbus, don't delay a pick up just because you couldn't sleep during the day after a night flight out and you're facing another night flight back to Hong Kong and you're not rested. An invitation to visit the office is coming your way. The minimum days off of the Airbus roster are spent just catching up on some sleep before it all starts again.

Not criticizing the 777 guys, best of luck to you. I am criticizing the situation on the Airbus. At least the freighter guys have the Boeing office looking after them.

[betpump5]

No they didn't. Not by a country mile.

The OP forgot to mention that with all those sectors, the Airbus guys do far more unpaid work.

[buggaluggs]

And the 747 crews are off doing a 10 day forever changing NA pattern, so barely rate a mention.....

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

prunedude,

Have you ever been summoned to explain your fuel decisions? I put on what 'we' want (the FO, sometimes the SO, and I) and don't worry about it. The day my fuel decision gets questioned is the day i will forever load CFP fuel!

You are right about the two different airlines though. How on earth we haven't managed to get sector pay or credit from sign-on or duty pay for the 747 especially, god only knows.

[AQIS Boigu]

SM,

Total BS - back in the days the 777 didn't have all these regional red eyes as well as midnight departures to regional destinations (BKK, 2x SIN, KL, NRT, KIX, 2x JKT and the new 3am SUB).

There was also a lot less India than the 330 is doing now (2x DEL, MAA, HYD and lots of BOM).

We don't need to remind you that ten years ago the 777 was parked by 11pm and the pilots were at the bar before getting a good night's sleep.

AB

[AQIS Boigu]

How on earth we haven't managed to get sector pay or credit from sign-on or duty pay for the 747 especially, god only knows.
Unfortunately our GC is very "long-haul heavy" (of course - they got time for GC work).

Regional pilots in CX have been getting screwed since the Tristar days.

[geh065]

Have you forgotten all the DHL flights the 777 and A330 used to do in the middle of the night?

Besides, most 777 FOs and SOs do plenty of back of the clock flying. 5hrs back of the clock back from India vs 8hrs back of the clock from NA. At least the Indians keep you busy rather than the mind numbing nothingness of the ocean.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

8 hours in the seat? Lets at least try and be truthful about how many hours you really sit there.

[The FUB]

YES for sure, the B747 doesn't get a mention. Different airline, different conditions. CP cannot care less, as for the CP training????

[geh065]

Ok well 15hr+ flight time with the cruise split into two is 7hrs in the bunk, if the FO is in the control seat for takeoff and landing and pre-flight prep then total can be over 8hrs in the seat, albeit not all in the cruise obviously.

[jonathon68]

Groan. Oh..OK I will bite.

Get some time in...

In my early years on the 777, our rosters had all the current issues that some (not all) of the Airbus guys are now whinging about.

In summary the 777 during the early to mid 2000's featured
- Grossly unproductive rosters generating only 60-70 hours credit hours per month.
- Never more than the minimum 7 days off in 28.
- Plenty of DHL red-eye flying to SIN, KIX, ICN etc.
- Plenty of Split duties, regional PX, Sim Crew-ups
- Lot's of time sitting in hotels far from home. I fondly remember the times in BKK, BOM, PEN etc. But there was not much to do in ICN, NRT, TPE etc for 30+ hours in winter. I had a young family at the time and that wasted time away from home was really painful. These were the days before free Wi-Fi, whats-app and face-time. During that period my 744 and Airbus mates had little sympathy for me.

The most sought after 777 trip in those times was the Bahrain-Riyadh triangle over 3 or 4 days, simply because it generated some credit. Alternatively the 2 crew HKG-BAH-DXB and return pattern was also relatively productive. They were the most popular requests!

I didn't complain, largely because I was desperate for a change after doing Relief on the 744 back over much of 18th century. Also, we had a CP (IW) who was a real "leader" and was one of very few CX Pilot Managers who has been worth following.

Times change.

Before my time there were bitter disputes between Crew over the Convair lifestyle and pay etc versus 707 and then subsequently the Tri-motor versus 747. Previous generations fought the good fight and ensured that we now enjoy "common jet salary".

While we now have a single salary for each fleet, significant overtime pay etc periodically falls into the hands of a few who are in the right place (rank/fleet etc) at the right time. This will always be the way. Currently I may be the "king of the castle", but a year or two from now this will switch to another pilot on another fleet. The best of luck to him!

Regarding the mob who craw "the 777 never had it so bad as the Airbus has it now..".

Number 1. Get some time in.
Number 2. Grow up and stop focusing on your self.
Number 3. I recommend that you join the AOA and start to consider the role, hopes, and contractual position of others outside your own narrow focus..

[bugged on the right]

Same in my day. We would arrive in the Tristar and a 747 would be already there. Leave in the morning, 747 still there. No problem because they all looked like ghosts doing that long haul.

[BillytheKid]

Airbus pilots lives will improve radically with the arrival of the 350.....oh, wait.:mad:

[Steve the Pirate]

u·nit·ed
yo͞oˈnīdəd/
adjective
joined together politically, for a common purpose, or by common feelings.

u·ni·ty
ˈyo͞onədē/
noun
1.
the state of being united or joined as a whole.

How little it takes for the cracks to be revealed to the public.

STP

[Flap10]

Groan. Oh..OK I will bite.

Number 1. Get some time in.
Number 2. Grow up and stop focusing on your self.
Number 3. I recommend that you join the AOA and start to consider the role, hopes, and contractual position of others outside your own narrow focus..

Hey Jonathon, we can easily settle this..why don't you post your three worst rosters from your regional 777 days and I'll post mine.

This isn't a competition, but when pay superseded rostering, I knew well that most on the 777, like yourself, had no f&cking clue of how bad the regional roster has become with practically 90% of the flying through a LNP, month after month, year after year. And no I'm not talking about a middle of the night flight to kix. That's considered an easy flight now.

I'm anxiously waiting.

[PNM]

@jonathon68... I almost bit... then I realised you're a troll!

There is not other explanation for the "narrow focus" in your reply

If the 777 was crewed in seniority then your post might have (a little) more credibility, but... it's not.

Happy trolling, troll.

[broadband circuit]

As an Airbus pilot who knows the real identity of jonathon68 (he also knows my real identity btw), I can assure you he's not a troll, and everything he says about the old days regional 777 are correct.

To balance the argument, I can also say that I'm not sure if he realises just how much worse the Airbus roster has become over the last 2 - 3 years.

To close it off, let's all re-read STP's post about "united" and "unity"

[betpump5]

An Airbus SO never earned more than a 777 FO. An airbus FO never earned more than a 777 captain.

The 'triplas' never had it this bad. I should know.

[bogie30]

jonathon68
A very balanced response I reckon.
What goes around comes around

[anotherbusdriver]

All of the hate and angst generated by the unfair and lop-sided fleet working conditions differences would be solved immediately if the company would simply adhere to Seniority type transfers.

The use of the phrase "common jet salary" is a poor attempt to stifle the questions and disgust at being locked in on type whilst many year junior crew take coveted "senior" fleet slots - when we all know that it is not a common salary... When an FO on a long haul fleet spends 50% of the time in the bunk, does 4 long haul flights a month, has 20 days off, and earns more than a flogged Captain on a regional fleet.

It is grossly unfair, and grossly misusing resources. It also completely ignores the fact that the best training you can give junior crew is plenty of sectors in and around the region in challenging conditions, whilst they are still young and keen... And they still can see that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[Avinthenews]

Which airlines have seniority based transfers and what are the conditions?

Many pilots in CX wouldn't have a clue that seniority based transfers are possible nor many other benifits, that's the benifit of hiring only cadets with little to no airline knowledge, they can't complain about what they don't know about.

Perhaps the AOA should educate new joiners on what CX doesn't have that other airlines do!

[Dan Winterland]

And I'm sure the DC3 guys used to complain about the easy lifestyles of those on the DC4. Death, taxes, nurses and complaining pilots!

[okm]

Geez...mgmt must be loving this thread!

[evansb]

Ah yes, the bad ole daze of the Cathay DC-4:
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/VR-HEU.jpg

[Captain Dart]

Actually, the two airlines at Cathay Pacific are:

1. Those who are just busting to get into training, so that they can have a greatly increased workload for a few lousy bucks, train pilots on reduced conditions to themselves who will eventually replace them, bitch about their training roster, and have 'Training Captain, Cathay Pacific Airways' on their business card.

2. Those who think that those in Airline No. 1 are prats.

[Sea Eggs]

Hey! That's Laurie King in the picture.

[DigitalPilot]

Yes I have to agree... Cathay has many different brands... :rolleyes:
CATHAY DRAGON
CATHAY 777
CATHAY AIRBUS
CATHAY CARGO

The work load is not fair:*

[VR-HFX]

evansb

A nice slither of irony.

bad ole daze..indeed it was for VR-HEU which was shot down by the Chinese off Hainan Island in 1954.

Fortuitously they have now turned their canons away from aircraft to focus on the global financial markets.

[ACMS]

Yep I spent quite a bit of time on the 777 during the 2,000's and can totally agree with Jonathan.

Lots of sectors, ZERO overtime.

When the ER arrived I got overtime ONCE.

Now I'm on the Bus it's the reverse!! Never mind.

[1200firm]

Anotherbusdriver is 100% spot on.

For Airbus and 747 crews,seniority based type transfer is the number one issue, above all of the other multiple issues that we face, in order to see some light at the end of a long,dark tunnel.
For 777 crews, it is at the bottom of the list.

So...quite a discrepancy. It is just a matter of time before non-777 crews start making their own deals simply to survive, contract compliance or not.

[BillytheKid]

For Airbus and 747 crews,seniority based type transfer is the number one issue, above all of the other multiple issues that we face, in order to see some light at the end of a long,dark tunnel.
For 777 crews, it is at the bottom of the list.

I disagree. Rostering improvements would mitigate the majority of this issue and positively impact all fleets. Going after seniority type transefers as a top priority is short-sighted and foolish.

[spleener]

Have to agree with Jonathan.
Was the same B747 vs L1011 in the eighties, then in the 90's the -400 got the best rosters. 'bus was okay into the noughties while the 340's were flying, the B777 ate sh*t. How time changes!
I've flown them all, some good rosters, some bad. Like Jonathan said; get some time in - no instant gratification here.

[Dragon69]

Have to agree with Jonathan.
Was the same B747 vs L1011 in the eighties, then in the 90's the -400 got the best rosters. 'bus was okay into the noughties while the 340's were flying, the B777 ate sh*t. How time changes!
I've flown them all, some good rosters, some bad. Like Jonathan said; get some time in - no instant gratification here.

There are two types that agree with Jonathan, those who have their heads burried in the sand, or those who know they're riding the gravy train and don't want it to end.

The 330 has been around as long as the 777, so what do you think the 330 was doing back in the 777 regional days. Yes exactly, it was flying the same regional roster as the 777, but nobody complained because the rosters were manageable and sustainable.

But for you 777 guys to say that the old 777 roster is the same as the current Airbus roster is insulting and offensive. This current Airbus roster is NOT manageable and NOT sustainable with the constant roster abuses, the constant patterns through wocl, the constant late finishes, early starts. The sickness rate is the highest it's ever been on any fleet, that alone should tell you morons something. There are plenty of very very senior Captains that had their names on the 777 list but were constantly bumped by a completely junior crew doing a command upgrade and so have been stuck. Whereas most on the old 777 roster flew the 777 for a few years before moving on to the jumbo in seniority.

As somoneone pointed out, why not compare an old 777 regional roster to a current airbus roster and run both through a fatigue monitoring program. It's easy to put this argument to bed, but I suspect nobody will because why let the facts get in the way of a false 777 belief.

[White None]

Another view. I've had good and bad, I'm currently on the 777 and I totally agree, it's good and it's unfair and most of those arguing against that are being disingenuous. I do not however feel personally guilty about being here, it's luck and lottery and most will get their share throughout a full career. When faced with the Fleet transfer or upgrade letter/NTC which fits ones personal timing, how many people will scour the seniority list to find peers in other situations and seek to D and G the company to give their chance away, even if that were possible? Can we be honest with ourselves, true to the concept of Union and fight the unfair rules, not each other?

[1200firm]

So, the only fair solution is to have a seniority based type transfer system, but I doubt you'd get many 777'ers wanting or supporting that.
This has the potential to become the most divisive issue in CX pilot history.

[Threethirty]

British Airways have a system where you bid every year for a fleet. Once on the type you're frozen for 5 years but you can still bid every year and it has not been uncommon for them to waive the type freeze.

[anotherbusdriver]

Yes 1200firm.

The only fair system is to have a type transfer system based on real seniority.

There are people doing their initial commands now who have spent the past 8 years as a cruisy long haul First Officer. That Command slot (their initial command!) is coveted by at least 300 more senior Captains, locked into rubbish lifestyles on the Airbus and 744, who would be at least 1,000 numbers/ 15 years more Senior, and whose lives have been rubbish for those past 8 years locked in on a fleet they do not wish to be on. All the while working diligently to the point of exhaustion as a Captain for this Company.

How is that in any way fair?

The company at least should show loyalty to those here longest and let "fleet market forces" create a top heavy career path for those with experience, and those who have done their time around the region, keeping employees motivated by the carrot of a nice long haul roster farther down the track.

Sorry if the 777 guys do not like it. But if you are one of them, and you are locking in a slot well below your seniority, then whether you are upset or not, it is just completely really wrong.

[777300ER]

If I were a junior Capt on the 777, I'd rather be a on a junior fleet now with the knowledge that one day when I have advanced in seniority enough, I'd be able to move to the fleet of choice. As it stands now, the entire system is a one-way crapshoot. The optimum fleet today will most certainly not be the optimum fleet a decade from now.

Of course there is a tangible cost to this, with intangible benefits, so it's safe to say it'll never happen with this management style.

[AQIS Boigu]

A bunch of 777 captains will drafted in March.

Welcome to the fleet with the best rest in J-class. At least they will be able to pick the "middle" without ever having done "first rest" during the meal service.

[Arfur Dent]

These are exactly the problems that so called Senior Management should be looking at and addressing. There can be nothing more debilitating than to be the 'victim' of a poorly managed system that has been left to morph into an even worse poorly managed system.
Farting into the wind with this lot though -I'm afraid. Where would you start???
Come on Anna!!!

[betpump5]

Finally some reason. Yes, a seniority based system that allows senior Airbus Captains to transfer to the 777 before an FO does an upgrade on it. Likewise senior FOs get a transfer before the ankle-biting SOs do an upgrade.

However, saying it is something CX management should be looking at is laughable. Why, with your experience of our 'management' would they ever do something to help us? Why would they do something that stops their strategy of divide and conquer.

There is only one organisation that should be championing this and it is the organisation you hopefully pay your subs too. But don't hold your breath. The silence is already deafening with regards to Staff Travel....

[White None]

But if you are one of them, and you are locking in a slot well below your seniority, then whether you are upset or not, it is just completely really wrong.
That's what I said last post, and I hope the system is changed. I just wonder though, whether those people who are justifiably naffed off about the extant admin process are seriously suggesting that the individuals who lucked in at this particularly point in their personal roller coaster of ups and downs during an airline career, should have refused the chance, seriously?