Unique Sir Angus Houston AsA Requirement Will Reduce Safety

[Dick Smith]

In just 12 months’ time all aircraft which fly IFR must be fitted with ADSB. No other country in the world has such a draconian and costly mandate.

Considering we’ve never had a collision between IFR aircraft in cloud, it’s clear that AsA are not addressing any known safety issue. The RIS shows that the cost to G.A. will be over $30 million.

The reason I refer to Sir Angus Houston and AsA is it’s clear that it’s Sir Angus and his Board who are pushing this requirement.

There is just one problem and that is that many pilots I talk to who currently fly IFR have decided to change their aircraft to the VFR category and save the $10,000 to $45,000 in ADSB fitment.

Clearly safety is most likely to be reduced, especially if you look at recent accidents like the helicopter at Cessnock and more recently the fixed wing aircraft at Port Lonsdale.

In the U.S. over 60 percent of pilots hold current instrument ratings. In Australia I understand it’s about 16 percent. This is clearly going to drop to even a lower figure, I would say 5 or 6 percent.

If you remember, John McCormick put in writing that the reason CASA could not give dispensations in relation to the unique Australian ADSB mandate was because of objections from Airservices.

When you consider, rather than pay for the 600 ground stations required to give proper coverage over our land mass, (as the FAA has done) Airservices have just put in a handful to save money and of course maximise profits and bonuses. They do not even have ADSB coverage between Moruya and Merimbula at 8,000 feet under the J Curve.

In the USA even after 2020 there will be no requirement for ADSB below 10,000 feet in D, E and G Airspace.

How many more unnecessary fatalities will take place before this unique mandate is removed?

[Frank Arouet]

Dick;
The whole ADSB matter is a fraud. It was perpetuated by the then AOPA Board acting outside of the members interests by agreeing to the free fitment to every aircraft of a compliant system. (I believe the latest Board isn't so enthusiastic). I recall having a long private discussion with the chief AsA snake oil salesman at Murray Bridge after leaving a heated AGM. It was expressly affirmed the above was the pre requisite for the concept. Following this a presentation to the AOPA AGM at the Bankstown Trotting Club again confirmed nothing had changed. That evening I shared a Taxi with the same proponent going to a Motel at Bass Hill with others and again the confirmation was expressed. There were heated discussions here on PPRune and I and others agreed the world was filled with delusional people believing this would amount to anything. It has amounted to exactly that with bells attached and the original lie seen for what it was.


You are correct. This is a regressive safety step and will cost lives.


Houston is typical RAAF. Someone so immune from reality as to believe his own mantra that would rid the skies of "small" aeroplanes which are bothersome to the Airlines and The Military. Another political appointment with a dubious ability to grasp anything except his masters bidding and someone living in an interplanetary void where no oxygen exists to stimulate brain function.


Probably a nice bloke at kids party's though.

[peterc005]

I don't agree with you Dick, I think ADSB will be a generational leap forward in technology prety much the same way and comparable to the way GPS has replaced ADF.

Over time GPS became cheaper and more functional, leading to near universal popularity and the demise of ADF.

The cost differential between Mode C and ADSB has been closing steadily, to the point where the obvious choice is to install ADSB in new planes and to replace Mode C units at the end of their life.

Arguing against ADSB is like advocating for VHS Video Tapes when CDs became popular - ultimately doomed by the practicality of new technology.

[fujii]

Clearly safety is most likely to be reduced, especially if you look at recent accidents like the helicopter at Cessnock and more recently the fixed wing aircraft at Port Lonsdale.


What is the relevance of these crashes, how will safety be reduced?

[Hempy]

Remember the Golden Rule; the people holding the gold make the rules. Tge airlines and the military hold the gold, ipso facto they make the rules.

At minsterial level, GA is nothing but an imbugerance, no gold there.

Don't shoot the messenger..

[Dick Smith]

Fujji. There will be even less aircraft and pilots flying IFR.

Already I have spoken to many pilots who are going to downgrade to VFR as they don't have the money available to purchase the ADSB unit if they want to continue to fly IFR.

IFR skills will be lost- more scud running- more deaths!

[Sunfish]

It won't be scud running Dick. My opinion is that there will instead be a lot of "Unofficial" IFR flying by pilots who are allegedly flying VFR. Their aircraft have everything for IFR flight except the magic box. This is potentially lethal because some will fly VFR but others are going to fly "augmented" (nude, nudge, wink, wink) VFR.

I've heard Third hand that a bit of this is happening already.

To put that another way, there will be people who arrive at certain airstrips in crappy weather who will then tell you with a straight face (and maybe a wink) that they got there under VFR. The "mis-educational" effect of this is likely to kill young inexperienced pilots who reason that if "X" can successfully fly VFR today from A to B then I can too. I cannot put that conclusion too strongly, that type of assumption (if he can do it, I can do it) almost killed me as an Eighteen year old, when I had had my car driving licence for Two weeks..

[Sunfish]

GPS? Cheaper? Priced a Garmin GTN series lately?

[Frank Arouet]

The Australian concept was based on "free" fitment to the aircraft registry. To argue that costs are minimal or comparatively based is like getting shot in the head with a .22 instead of a .308. It's an impost fraudulently and deliberately put together by a mob of tricksters paid for from the public teat.

[sunnySA]

When you consider, rather than pay for the 600 ground stations required to give proper coverage over our land mass, (as the FAA has done) Airservices have just put in a handful

The following map would indicate about 60 ground stations.
http://http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/adsb_at_30000ft_GM.jpg (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/adsb_at_30000ft_GM.jpg)

I'd be the first to say that coverage should be a minimum of 10,000ft, more units, better redundancy if one unit fails. But, and its a big BUT, User pays, so if Industry wants more ground stations then this could be supplied but User pays.

[gerry111]

Dick wrote:

"There is just one problem and that is many pilots I talk to who currently fly IFR have decided to change their aircraft to the VFR category and save the $10,000 to $45,000 in ADSB fitment."


I don't believe you. So please prove me wrong. PPRuNe names would suffice.


The recent VFR fixed wing accident at Port Lonsdale appears to have nothing to do with ADSB. Perhaps poor judgement by a GA pilot keen to get to King Island? Who knows?


'Scud running' is the choice of the captain, on the day. I choose not to fly with such pilots.

[aussieflyboy]

I'm yet to speak to a commercial GA pilot that doesn't think ADSB is great!!

About time the crappy 402s/barons/kingairs had there GPSs updated (huge increase in safety - has anyone ever enjoyed using a Trimble) and direct tracking becomes a breeze especially when diverting around weather.

And the fact that someone knows exactly where we are when flying across some of the most remote areas in the kimberley/territory is rather warming :ok:

If it wasn't mandated, the fact is no one would upgrade and in 20 years people will still be flying around invisible - sooner the better!

[Frank Arouet]

The GA pilots you're speaking to don't have to pay for the equipment.

[KRviator]

I installed the transponder in the RV-9 this week and updated the Dynon's GPS antenna to the new -2020 model. Took all of 2 hours combined.

In the U.S., I am now fully ADS-B out compliant. In Australia I'm not. The difference? The U.S. Does not require TSO'd GNSS position sources for ADS-B out, they only have to "meet the performance requirements" to be deemed suitable.

How does this benefit safety? I am happy to fund the cost of ADS-B, for me, it was less than $1000 for a new GPS antenna as I needed the transponder anyway, but to only be able to use it, effectively, as a Mode C device only is maddening.

I have asked CASA what they need to approve the Dynon's GPS as a GNSS position source, but haven't got an answer back yet, it meets the requirements in their own AC21-45 so "maybe" they can be persuaded...

[Dick Smith]

Aussie. You have been conned. "someone" will not know where you are flying in remote areas because because Airservices have not put enough ground stations in. 90% of remote areas will have no ground station coverage at the typical levels small planes operate. Can't even get ADSB coverage at 9000' between Merimbula and Moruya and that's hardly remote. Get a Spidertracks or similar if you want that kind of coverage.

[Dexta]

I have a Cessna 172 (certified aircraft - not experimental) in the IFR category, I regularly fly IFR for the additional safety and the discipline and procedures that IFR requires. I hold a current IR (used to be CIR) and a PIFR, I have my own personal limitations and know the limitations of my aircraft (i.e. Thunderstorms, ice, alternate requirements etc.). I have a TSO 129 GPS and mode c transponder. Next February I will need to upgrade to ADSB if I want to continue flying IFR. Option a) New GPS (Garmin 530W or the like), new transponder, plus engineering orders, fitting etc. about $20,000, or option b) A slide in replacement of the Garmin transponder with an "all-in-one" unit for approx $7000 but none are available yet for a certified aircraft. All this on top of the mandatory SIDS program (even though my aircraft was rebuilt in 2007 I still have to pull everything apart so that it can be checked again - sure, everything will pass the test but it will add $3 to $4 K to the annual inspection). Then the mandatory replacement of cables and the prop AD if they force that on us.
If no CERTIFIED, easily fitted ADSB solution is available in Australia by next year then I will have to drop to VFR thus reducing my safety margins, my options when travelling and my skills over a period of time. I am 100% sure that ADSB will be of no benefit to me as I do not fly outside the J curve and I do not fly over 10,000'. If EVERY aircraft had to have it (VFR, gliders, microlights etc.) I could see a benefit for ADSB out & in. But my biggest risk is flying at 6000' feet in cloud and some dumb **se in a Jabiru thinks they're fine to fly in cloud (see RA-Aus magazine story - Banana Canyon or similar title) with no transponder etc slamming into me, ADSB as it stands now will not stop this situation.

[aussieflyboy]

Let's not talk about Garmin 430/530s like they're new - they stopped making them 5 years ago.

We had a bit of chat about this last night while we watched he storms roll through and we all agreed for commercial ops this ADSB mandate is spot on. The average age of our IFR aircraft is 22 years :sad: and we have full confidence that our owner would have put at least $20 a week a side for avionics improvements so the cost and benefits we agreed were reasonable.

Private ops is where the arguments started as most guys agreed that as an owner and operator of an aircraft it should be up to you how you want to operate your craft. Is there an organisation is Aus that tried to prevent this and stand up for the private guy??

[Frank Arouet]

You're on the wrong planet buddy. ($20 a week FFS).

[IFEZ]

Good post Dexta. Sums up the debacle pretty well.


Aussie - is your $20/week comment a wind-up..? Or a typo perhaps..? If not, I think you'd better recheck your calculations..!

[cogwheel]

I'm with Dexta on this one. My aircraft is now VFR as I cannot justify nor afford the new requirements. I operate in G 90+% of the time with the very occasional visit to a class D zone.

Why do I need a mode S txpdr if I choose to upgrade? If the choice is a mode S or nothing... Maybe we might see a few owners selecting the later?

I would like to to see the safety case and cost benefit analysis for GA below 5700kg ... If either exist!

[Frank Arouet]

There was no CBA or safety case. The concept was a figment of fancy by a bureaucrat who thought it would deliver a profit to the one shareholder who in this case demonstrated a willingness to be party to the crime. It's a pity nobody is prepared to prosecute the blindingly obvious, but then again most don't have access to the public purse. If they get away with this, VFR will be next forced to comply.

[QFF]

I am 100% sure that ADSB will be of no benefit to me as I do not fly outside the J curve

Dexta, I fly IFR 100% of the time outside of the J curve (I'm in WA) and although ADSB compliant, I have yet to be ADSB identified or got any benefit from ADSB either.

So if ADSB is of no benefit either in the J curve or outside of it, why have it?:confused:

[aussieflyboy]

Well I'll try and keep the argument 2 sided for a bit longer. I'm also WA based and get identified for 95% of the time I'm in the air so it's obviously dependent on where you operate and of course how high.

As I mentioned before there are a few benefits such as direct tracking is much more readily available especially when diverting around weather and the forced upgrading of pathetic GPS units.

Anything to modernise the commercial GA fleet is a good thing. The passengers are starting to realise they are being flown around in aircraft the same age as kingswoods.

If you bought your aircraft 20 odd years ago and were putting money aside to upgrade it as new technology became available then this wouldn't be an issue for you - did you really expect NDBs to be around forever? and if you bought your aircraft recently and it wasn't fitted with the correct equipment then you either saved money or screwed up :ok:

[thorn bird]

"Anything to modernise the commercial GA fleet is a good thing. The passengers are starting to realise they are being flown around in aircraft the same age as kingswoods".

If the punters were prepared to pay the extra cost of modern equipment we wouldn't be flying 40 year old machinery.
CAsA's costs and requirements hardly encourage people to upgrade either.

[Old Akro]

It won't be scud running Dick. My opinion is that there will instead be a lot of "Unofficial" IFR flying by pilots who are allegedly flying VFR.

Absolutely correct!

I have already had a traffic warning from ATC for an opposite direction VFR aircraft at the same level when I was in cloud.

The guys who are talking about upgrading the fleet and increasing safety do not understand the Australian implementation of ADS-B. Because VFR is exempt, any time that VFR and IFR aircraft mix we have the identical separation and safety condition that exists now. Safety is only as good as the weakest link. If we mandate improvements to IFR and not VFR, then nothing changes.

And the guys talking about ADF being redundant clearly have not been through the list of locations where ADF & VOR remain and/or have not flown very far from major cities. The reality is that after the NAVAID closures, ADF will be more useful to many pilots than VOR. We have very definitely retained ADF in our new panel.

Using a factory refurbished 430W our ADSB upgrade (in progress) will end up costing about $40k. It was complicated by a panel relayout to fit the 430 and some autopilot integration issues and we added a a couple of new things which raised the bill by maybe $5k

The GTN proponents should have a look at the prices they bring on ebay compared with 430's. There is only about $1k difference. For my money, its a better IFR GPS than the GTN. And when the 430 dies, we'll slide in an Avidyne IFD440.

Australia is the only country in the world that is mandating ADS-B for all IFR aircraft at all levels in all classes of airspace.

[Dick Smith]

This is the problem when you have ex military people who have little idea of business costs running both AsA and CASA

It is going to get worse and worse. As I have suggested. Get out of aviation now if you can. Losses will get bigger and bigger as time goes by.

The only food shop at Bankstown has now closed. The writing is on the wall .

[Pimp Daddy]

or option b) A slide in replacement of the Garmin transponder with an "all-in-one" unit for approx $7000 but none are available yet for a certified aircraft.

L3 Lynx - not slide into the Garmin tray but will fit in the same space.

It's certified.

[Old Akro]

no-one has a friggin clue where you are

We can't even get VHF radio reception across all of Victoria. Anyone who thinks ADS-B is going to give perfect location details anywhere is living in some (to quote Cleaver Green) Fantastical Jane Austen bullsh#t haze

[LeadSled]

The GA pilots you're speaking to don't have to pay for the equipment.

Frank,
Truth is, many of those CPLs have paid for ADS-B and other unjustified imposts by CASA -- paid with their jobs and careers in aviation in Australia.
Clear thinking & common sense competency standards are not to be found in the Part 61 MOS.
Tootle pip!!