Cameron attacks race bias

[BEagle]

Right - no stupid comments please!

I see in the BBC News Cameron attacks race bias in courts and universities - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35452975) that DC has 'warned the police, the courts and the armed forces they also had to act' on the issue, noting that 'there are no black generals in the UK armed forces'.

Personally, I always thought that people were promoted in the UK Armed Forces purely on merit.....:hmm:

[tmmorris]

This strikes me as a bit like blaming universities for taking too many pupils from independent schools. It's not the fault of the universities, or the armed forces, that not enough highly educated and aspirational black young people either exist, or apply to them. It goes much further back, into the education system.

Of course, if there were concrete evidence that black personnel were discriminated against for promotion that would be another thing. But I very much doubt it, not in the last 20 years at least. Before that, perhaps.

[langleybaston]

Never mind, in a few years time the whinge will be regarding the scarcity of "Generals, racial minority, female, lesbian, handicapped". All at the same time, of course.

[ShotOne]

Does your comment really stand up, Beagle? I'm no longer serving (you too?) but I ask because I never met a single black officer in all the time I was, overseas Officer Cadets excepted. Not one. Likewise there was not a single female pilot/nav/rockape/aircrew of any kind except stewardess or nurse. So while I'm neutral on the rights of what Mr Cameron said, I'm prepared to believe there's a case to answer.

[Ken Scott]

Surely the solution then is conscription for black & minority males & females (50% of each) with a moratorium on Caucasians until the ratio exactly matches that of the national ethnic makeup.......?

It's not possible to make people join otherwise. The armed forces today bend over backwards to make themselves inclusive - ethnicity, sexual orientation, TG, it's open to all, we're even on Stonewall's list of gay friendly employers, but there's only so much we can do without resorting to compulsion (BTW I was only jesting in the first para......)

ShotOne: T**v Ed***ds was flying Jags from around 1990 - in his case he'd joined he Regt but not finished the JROC due to losing most of his toes as the instructors had made him stand in a flooded trench for so long to try & break him rather than have 'a n****r in the RAF Regt'. He couldn't continue in his chosen branch & the RAF offered him his choice to make up for the brutal fashion in which he'd been treated - he chose pilot, & a nicer chap you couldn't hope to meet. Hard to believe thant kind of stuff went on but I guess its legacy is one of the reasons why the numbers are so low.

There was H***y J***son on C130s too, so a few about although not many.

[Pontius Navigator]

Shot one, first, it is also black, Asian, minority and ethnic I think.

Knew a black helicopter pilot at Tengah over 40 years ago. An Asian or Spanish (Lopez) engineering officer, same time. Indians too.

A BEagle said, in most cases it depends on quality and merit.

I know they quotes percentages with RN and. RAF around 2-3%, but what is the percentage in UK? More relevant what is the percentage from traditional recruiting areas?

If the percentage of suitable app!licants presentinbv at the AFCO is loiw then In-service figures will be low.

In our village we have some Indian s and Chinese in the restaurant trade, we have no 'free' BAMEs that would wish to be recruited. The whole ethnic population is an insignificant percentage.

The BBC is very much metro centric and only on TV do we see these ethnic minorities that IMHO are over represented. At least we have a female MP.

[BEagle]

ShotOne, yours must have been rather a different world to mine as I knew several other-than-white aircrew officers in my time, although they were rather in the minority in terms of number.

One chap (of Jamaican background) was struggling a bit when learning to fly formation in the Gnat at Valley (didn't we all?), but went on a trip with the squadron boss (of Asian descent). We had weird formation call-signs back then, such as 'Milvus', 'Outward'...and 'Sambar' - so the two of them set off giggling like schoolgirls at ATC's reaction to their chosen call-sign.... It seems that the boss had decided on 'Sambo' :ooh: rather than 'Sambar', which broke the ice; the previously struggling student relaxed and subsequently flew an excellent trip!

I was lucky enough to go through Brawdy with him and his sense of humour; he later went on to have a very good FJ career.

[Rotate too late]

Served with a guy in Germany who was subjected to some of the most outrageously overt racism I'd ever encountered, literally bullied out of the Air Corps. I begged him to report it, but he just RTU'd and that was that. Bloody shame. It happens, be in no doubt.

[charliegolf]

Harry Whittle on 33 springs to mind. I know of a single RSM- don't recall the regiment.

CG

[4mastacker]

BEagle wrote:

.......DC has 'warned the police, the courts and the armed forces they also had to act' on the issue, noting that 'there are no black generals in the UK armed forces'.

Doesn't this gentleman count?

Rear-Admiral Amjad_Hussain CB RN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amjad_Hussain)

[Pontius Navigator]

I also feel that the OH is an issue too. Ethnic wives in a white club, or lack of ethnic females (males) in the base area.

My English successor at a Jock station tried to get out of the job, his third at that station, as his chances of meeting an English girl were vanishingly small. He made WG CDR, don't know if he got the biurd though.

[Pontius Navigator]

Oh Stacker, don't spoil a good thread with facts. Anyway he is not a general.

Anyway, too succeed in the Army I thought you needed the right name too.

[Wrathmonk]

Shot One

When did you leave? The first operational RAF female pilot was in 1990....

The RAF Regt remains, as far as I know, the only regular outfit to be 'male only' (not sure about the Reserve / Aux units) - listened to a wonderful presentation from a Rock Officer on why that should remain so. The look on the (female) course directors face during some of the more detailed explanation was a joy to behold!

[Pontius Navigator]

Wrath, my daughter was in 2503 about 15 years ago. There wasvcan issue on weapons but she still qualified on GPMG, mortar and grenades. On an exercise in USA she was a section commander of a joint section. For tuppence she would have shot a couple of spams (different story).

[RAFEngO74to09]

A RAFC Cranwell IOT Engineer officer contemporary of mine (1976) - at the time of his promotion to air commodore in 2000 at age 47 - became the highest ranking black officer ever to serve in the UK Armed Forces.

You couldn't meet a nicer, more polite, modest, talented officer who was awarded the Sword of Honour for the year - most of us saw him as the frontrunner for the award early on. It is worth remembering that there were 3 x 16-week entries each with up to 120 cadets a year in those days.

His appointments included Phantom SEngO, Phantom OC Eng & Supply Wg, Head of The RAF Presentation Team and Director of Specialist Ground Training at RAFC Cranwell.

His bio appears in 100 Great Black Britons which has the following entry:

Asked about the issue of being black in the UK Armed Forces, his response was: "I certainly encountered no barriers to joining. And I have reflected back over the period I have been in the Service on whether I have encountered discrimination and can honestly say I cannot identify any occasion when I thought this might have been a case in point. I try to educate people by simply being who I am".

Says it all really - opportunities on merit have been there for at least 40 years for those that deserve it.

[Tankertrashnav]

I'm reminded of General Colin Powell who was once being interviewed by a British journalist. The former four star general is the son of an immigrant who came to the USA from Jamaica. He was asked what he thought he might have been had his parents moved to the UK, instead of the US. "Probably a warrant officer in the British Army" came the reply.

[ShotOne]

Interesting to note that of the (very few) examples put forward to contradict my post, several have suffered extreme and shocking discrimination, in one case to the point of actual bodily harm. Beagle: call sign "Sambo"?? I rest my case.

[Brian W May]

Why do I think DC actually is alluding to no senior Muslim officers . . .

I hope the comment stays, but suspect it won't.

It seems we must be seen to bend over backwards to accommodate them everywhere. Why should the Armed Forces be any different?

[ExAscoteer]

R****t P***t flew F4s.

Dez D*****e ended up as Staish at Wittering retiring as an Air Commodore in 2010 (and a nicer man and better instructor you'd likely never meet).

Dez would turn finls in the JP with a stude and call: "Finals, 3 Greens, 1 Black, 1 White."

[BEagle]

ShatOne, can you actually read? If so, try reading my post more carefully, even if that does require you to move your lips at the same time...:rolleyes:

It was the fact that they were both 'other than white' and were giggling at the response they were receiving from ATC with their distinctly non-PC choice of call-sign which broke the ice....

[Chinny Crewman]

Stacker your Admiral retired in 2012, there are no current black VSOs as far as I'm aware? The point the PM is making is not that we shouldn't promote on merit it's rather that ethnic minorities are deterred from joining because we are institutionally racist. I'm not convinced that as individuals there are many serving racists but as an organisation?

I would also add that the timing of this smacks of distraction politics. Make some controversial statement targeting some high profile British instutions just as he's in difficult negotiations with the EU! Got to love politicians!

[CoffmanStarter]

I suspect DC is wanting to see a more 'inclusive/representative' Mil Service Population (to mirror our wider society) which is probably driven by the following headline stats published by the MOD ...


Black, Asian Minority and Ethnic (BAME) personnel comprised 7.0 per cent of the UK Regular Forces on 1 April 2015, decreasing slightly compared to 7.1 per cent at 1 April 2014 and 1 April 2013. This representation differs for officers (2.3 per cent) and other ranks (8.0 per cent).

At 1 April 2015 the proportion of BAME personnel in the RN/RM was 3.5 per cent, the Army was 10.2 per cent and the RAF was 2.1 per cent. Between 1 April 2013 and 1 April 2015, the proportion of BAME personnel in each of the three Services has remained broadly stable.

More detailed MOD stats ...

See Page 6.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/430185/mil_diversity_dashboard_report_apr15_update.pdf

See Pages 6 & 7

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480289/Diversity_Statistics_1October15-a.pdf

At a simple level ... Joining the UK Armed Services still doesn't seem to be an attractive proposition (for whatever reason) for a majority of BAME UK citizens ...

It's not surprising therefore that BAME VSO's are a rarity.

PS. I suspect the above overall 7% (2.3% for Officers) is higher than it was say 20 years ago ?

[Bob Viking]

I wonder if it is a coincidence that this has sprung up very recently after the race row surrounding the Academy Awards?

Being male, Caucasian and of average appearance and build I find it hard to see the argument through the eyes of others. My suspicion is that, if I were from a minority group, I would be extremely angry about the fact that if I should achieve something noteworthy I would be viewed by many as just fulfilling a quota.

Positive discrimination, if that is what the PM is encouraging, can be just as damaging as the other kind.

I am a staunch believer in the policy of 'best person for the job'. I do not believe the RAF is in any way racist/sexist/(insert other)ist and that people are and should be selected on merit.

Maybe I'm an idealist or maybe it's because I have never experienced racism but I just wish we could recruit the best and reward the best accordingly.

BV:O

[ValMORNA]

At RAF Worksop in the mid-1950's there was, IIRC, a WingCo (Flying) who was Scots/Malayan (Malaysian?), a good ethnic mix.

[Chugalug2]

I really don't think that we should get too worked up about what the PM has said about this subject, or indeed about any other. He is a verbal conjurer and is professional enough to know that if you want to distract people away from subject A, then you say something provocative about subject B.

We would do better to concern ourselves with subject A, just as he should concern himself with the bunch of politically motivated men and women who are waiting and watching for the opportunity to take his crown.

BTW, don't mention bunch, I just did but I think I've got away with it...

[Onceapilot]

I think I must have been in a different Air Force? The one I have experienced for nearly 40 years has a hard dog-eat-dog core. :uhoh:

OAP

[ShotOne]

Are you really the same person, Beagle, who delivered me a pious lecture on "netiquette" some time back?? What a pointlessly rude post. if you really believe the use of the term "sambo" is evidence of lack of discrimination, frankly it's a waste of key-strokes discussing the issue with you.

[Out Of Trim]

Don't look inward guys!

Pass the question back to Camoron.. How many black Prime Ministers have we had?

Hmmm, Oh dear! None so far! :rolleyes:

[langleybaston]

Beagle I fear you are wasting your breath, but "shat" has a certain charm.

[Melchett01]

DC must have forgotten about the black Stn Cdr he met last autumn then. A very bright, charming and thoroughly capable chap I first met years ago as a holding officer. Didn't need political quotas to get his station.

And then there was the Asian, I believe Gp Capt, now left for academia/think tanks, but he made a name for himself as a real thinker on COIN issues. Don't think he needed quotas either.

Then again, I don't suppose the politicians, that bastion of ethic diversity, will be happy until Dianne Abbot is CDS; even then they'd probably find fault with the appointment.

[langleybaston]

ethic diversity is right, even if Freudian or spoolchicker.

[NutLoose]

I always look on the likes of this as people are promoted on merit, not on colour, and to do so simply degrades the system.


Served with quite a few people who were none Caucasian and they were all great, Sengo and Jengo in Germany were both Indian, I felt for the Jengo though as his religion prevented him from eating pork, which wasn't fun for him on exercise as the Hotlocks were invariable compo sausages etc, so he went without, which on a cold morning during a long exercise you needed something warm and tasty inside you.

[Haraka]

One point perhaps to consider is that almost any VSO's now would have joined 25 years plus ago when the "ethnic minorities" were much smaller, so one wouldn't expect them now to match the current wider population percentages. Furthermore, there were then also third generation issues regarding obtaining some higher level clearances.
It is also ridiculous within the camaraderie of the military, where Scots, Welsh,Irish and others of recognisable ancestry are all fair game for stereotypical leg pulling, not to have that privilege extended across to others,who in turn can bounce back counter irreverent epithets. That is common in any close community and should not be (often deliberately) confused with racism.

I think Colin Powell's "What if " response could also perhaps be taken as a back -handed complement as to the quality of British Army Warrant Officers.

[engineer(retard)]

You couldn't meet a nicer, more polite, modest, talented officer

I'll second that, fantastic bloke :ok:

[sharpend]

ShotOne, looks like you have... shot yourself in the foot. If you read carefully you will note that Beagle has stated that the callsign 'Sambo' was decided by two non-white pilots; racial discrimination? I think not.

In my 39 years in the RAF, I have known many black or female pilots. All of a very high caliber. Moreover, I had a very good relationship with my Asian navigator who called me 'white trash'. I'll not tell you what I called him. However, like those two pilots with the callsign 'Sambo' we too giggled. It was all great fun and was very anti political correctness.

So ShotOne, open your eyes. Pilots are picked on merit and not prejudice.

[Wander00]

Front cover of Accountancy Age a few years back, Asian gp capt, most senior qualified accountant in the RAF. First met him when he was OC Accts at Valley in the 80s-great guy

[Finningley Boy]

I'm thinking more along the lines of what chugalug said, this is more a political exercise, perhaps not to distract anyone, but certainly an attempt to burnish his 'everyman' image. Being a tory will unfortunately risk an accusation of being a typical tory toff, will always suggest being happy to discriminate against all minority groups. So this'll be an attempt to prove otherwise before anyone even says anything more direct and specific. Not that anyone will necessarily. but it won't do any harm to publicly demonstrate his credentials like this.

FB:)

[Jumping_Jack]

Ken Scott

T**v Ed***ds was flying Jags from around 1990 - in his case he'd joined he Regt but not finished the JROC due to losing most of his toes as the instructors had made him stand in a flooded trench for so long to try & break him rather than have 'a n****r in the RAF Regt'.

Utter bolleaux. I was on the J-Course with T.E. We were all made to stand in freezing water filled trenches on a week long defence exercise, we all suffered 'trench foot' like symtoms to one degree or another. T.E had poor circulation that made him particularly vulnerable. I'm not defending the actions of the Regt and Medical staff during that exercise, they were appalling and had there not been Crown Immunity at that time they would have had their asses sued. BUT, this was NOTHING to do with racism. As others have said, T.E. was a top bloke and I'm very glad he had sucess after the severe problems the J-Course caused him.

[Tankertrashnav]

Re callsigns - we had a West Indian captain when I was on tankers. On one exercise he was highly amused that the codename he had been allocated (entirely at random from 1 Group) was "Spade".

[Heathrow Harry]

To have promote minority groups to SO level they have to be officers - and that's the real problem - there are a significant number of non-white OR's but how many join the Officer Corps in any UK Service?

Not many is my guess - and it's probably because if you are from a minority and have a good education there are a lot more doors open to you in Civvy Street.

If the Services and the Govt are serious they need to get more minorities in to start with - then we will have some people who are good enough to rise to the very top

Interestingly for a lot of Black Americans the US services were perceived through the 50's onwards as much more of an Equal Opportunity Employer than Big Business so many more decently educated people joined up = more minority SO's by the 80's

[Tankertrashnav]

Heathrow Harry has a point about members of racial minorities simply not wanting to apply for commissions because they can do better elsewhere. I recall chatting with an Indian engineering officer from St Mawgan who became a regular customer of mine for a while. I talked about the scarcity of Asian officers in the service, and he said that in his own case he had met with resistance from his family who thought that he should be able to do a lot better with an engineering degree than join the armed forces, which were perceived as very much a third rate career choice. If you think of the stereotype Asian mother ("my son the lawyer/accountant/doctor, etc") then "my son the RAF officer" carries with it little kudos, which may have some bearing on why so few talented Asians are entering the service.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, indeed, as a Rotarian I was asked by an Indian Doctor from another club to talk with them and his son who wanted to become an engineer. They wanted him to become a doctor.

[Basil]

Re the OP: DC garnering the ethnic vote for future use?

[Roadster280]

The stats posted by Coff tell a story; the problem is more with the RN and RAF than the Army; it seems there are 3-4x the proportion in the Army than the other two. It is further influenced by the F&C recruitment initiative. There are plenty of Fijians in the British Army, for example. Most of these will be ORs though, as the stats point out.

I would think the problem (if one accepts that there IS a problem) is that what the AOSB/AIB/OASC are looking for is simply not how these kids are brought up, due to differing cultural influences. The kids probably know/suspect this, and so don't apply in the same numbers. If you're brought up on a south London housing estate and go to the local comp, you probably don't read a broadsheet nor could you draw a sketch map of the Middle East, pointing out the salient cities and influences. I can't speak for the RN or RAF, but you're unlikely to pass AOSB if that's the case.

I suspect if you drew a map of where BAME people are concentrated, and overlaid it with a map of where officers lived before joining, you would see some degree of (reverse) correlation.

I do think that Dave has got this one wrong. You want the most suitable staff in all positions in HMF, not ones that fit racial profiles in representative percentages. If that ends up being that all the officers are black and all the ORs are white, so be it. Or the other way around.

Perhaps the answer is to get more of the BAME population to read newspapers, in-depth news reports etc with the aim of getting more of their kids to fit the profile that HMF require.

[Roland Pulfrew]

There are plenty of Fijians in the British Army And quite a few Nepalese, which probably skews the Army % a little.

Whilst I accept that he has recently retired we shouldn't forget the last Director RAF Medical Services A**** M*******r (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Medical_Services) who retired as a 2* "general".

[Jumping_Jack]

Ahhhh but he was a Doctor and therefore was able to meet family ambitions too! :E

[Heathrow Harry]

the other issue is that UK born minorities have little or no family experience of the Armed Forces - certainly not at Officer level

I'm sure the Armed Forces get a better than average intake due to the fact that for many cadets it's "in the family" - this still applies in the Sub-Continent etc but they join their own armed forces not ours

Most minorities know little or nothing about the UK armed forces

We have managed to gradually increase the number of Women Officers - the same effort needs to be put into recruiting minority group graduates

[Brian 48nav]

I too was surprised at Ken Scott's assertion re Trev. My son shared a house with him at Colt' 92/3 and they remain great friends to this day and I've never heard any mention of what Ken claimed re him losing his toes. Trev doesn't mention it in his book, 'Average' ( shameless plug again Trev' ! ), although maybe he is just too nice to say so, if he was the subject of such overt racism.

I always wanted him to be my son-in-law but No1 son said, 'No way am I inflicting my sister on any of my Jag Mates' - smiley needed but I can't make it work!

Chugalug

Do you remember the co-pilot ( public school educated Pete Milward ) and nav ( British Asian Joe Amin ) on 30 Sqn 68-70, who ran a mobile disco' with the name " Black & White Disco "? Joe was one of several non-white Navs and pilots on the Herc in the early years.

[Chugalug2]

Indeed I do, B48N. Joe was about as non-PC as you could imagine, famously winding up Works and Bricks to find out what process was called for in order that they might erect a temple in his South Cerney OMQ garden. On another occasion they delivered a mirror, wall, tall, only to be asked if they could fix it on the ceiling over the marital bed (though that might well have been a genuine request...) :O

Seem to remember a black Herc F/O, though not on 30? Do you remember him? I wonder if he got a command? Think he was married in OMQs at Hullavington.

[skydiver69]

I'm really pleased to see that having raised the topic the PM is leading by example and has promoted numerous BME MPs to his cabinet. Oh wait a sec no he hasn't. There are Asian cabinet ministers, Priti Patel and Savid Javid , in fact women are also conspicuous by their low representation as well.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Brian 48nav]

Harry Apiafi springs to mind - I left late '73 so not sure if he got his command, but he has been mentioned before on Prune so someone will know. I can recall at least 2 black ALMs in our time.

I think Haraka has hit the nail on the head with his suggestion that 25 years or so ago there may have been fewer people from ethnic minorities being recruited.

The same demographic is often mentioned in football - 'Why are there so few managers and top coaches from the ethnic minorities ? '. If you go back to the 70s there were only 2 or 3 black players with leading clubs, more in the 80s and then an avalanche since the 90s, yet curiously I can recall hardly any British Asian players. Surely in the future there will be more non-whites at the top of the services and football.

[racedo]

I find the "couldn't be a nicer bloke etc etc" that is being used to highlight some Non white officers to be a little bit patronising.

Not everyone would have liked n'officer and calling someone a total Tosser, irrespective of the colour is perfectly acceptable.

Now some of said mentioned people were probably nice blokes .............

As for Call Me Dave........................ Eton Rich Boy pandering to media, my opinion of him is that he was always an Idiot, one day maybe will be prove wrong.................. I doubt it though.

[Chugalug2]

B48N, yes of course, Harry Apiafi! Thank you, the relays in the memory circuits take ever longer to operate these days, often failing completely.

I'll remind Mrs Chug, as they were on the same Hullavington patch as us, and the wives would get together when their o/h's were away down route. We went back there years later on our way to a wedding rehearsal. With a bit of time in hand we parked briefly outside our first home. The front door opened and a Ghurkha officer emerged, asking if he could be of help? Despite our protestations we were ushered inside their immaculate home. Large rooms suddenly became smaller and vice versa, as reality replaced memory. What had changed was that the kitchen solid fuel stove for hot water, and the lounge coal fire with a back boiler for the main bedroom radiator (the only one), had been replaced by a modern central heating and hot water boiler. Similarly the Crittall windows were gone, replaced with modern double glazed units. We exchanged Christmas cards for a few years, until they were posted elsewhere and we lost touch. Another kind gesture on their behalf, given that I suspect it was not a festival that they celebrated.

[Ken Scott]

Jumping Jack, Brian 48nav: that was the story as related to me at the time when TE arrived at Colt, it might even have come from him but it was a long time ago so I can't honestly say. You might say it is 'utter boleaux' & I'm glad to be corrected - the Regt instructors weren't racist, they would've welcomed him with open arms but they treated everyone, black & white, with equal disdain that resulted in him suffering irreversible injury in a training exercise although it was his fault really for having poor circulation. Happy to be put right.

[BEagle]

From that classic PPRuNe thread 'I Wish I Hadn't Said That....' of about 15 years ago:


Well since we've now drifted in to the non-PC chapter of this thread...

Heard a tale once of a pair of Rocks, extremely good friends, one caucasian, one most definitely not, demonstrating a GPMG to someone wearing lots of gold braid, which was, obviously, too good an opportunity to miss.

Pasty white Rock saunters across training area followed by his suspiciously heavily-laden fellow, only just remaining on his feet under the weight of TWO bergens, TWO lots of webbing, GPMG, ammo et al.

White rock stops, looks across the open ground of the training area, turns to black colleague and flicks out his hand...

"Bearer! My gun!"


Service humour, ShotOne, in case you're reading...:hmm:

[Courtney Mil]

I'm outraged, BEgle. You just called all non-White people 'bearers' and they are not! I'm wasting more key-strokes!

[Melchett01]

Having had a think about this, I'll happily toss the grenade back in the Govt's direction and say this is actually their fault - not just the Tories, it's both major parties - but neither have done anything constructive to resolve the issue, if indeed there is one. And I don't include positive discrimination and quotas in the sense of doing something constructive, they are all too often just toxic political reactions.

I'm going to base my claim by looking at another aspect of social mobility - education - and argue they have done similar stupid things there to effectively discourage social mobility, but now have the front to whinge about it. I grew up in a single parent family 'ooop north' but rather than settle for life in the factories my mum recognised early on that education was the key to my future. The local comps were pretty shocking (I remember one maths teacher on an open day being proud his class of 13yr olds we're learning fractions, the same fractions my mum taught me to do when I was about 7 or 8), so mum decided a local independent school was the only way ahead. However, the only way she could afford to send me there was thanks to the Assisted Places Scheme that enabled talented and intelligent children (it's been down hill since peaking at 11!) to go to such schools with fees partly or fully paid for. Had the APS not existed I'd have been at the local comp doing fractions again at 13. A couple of decades later, and well, I'm not doing too badly in life, pretty much the principle of social mobility in action.

Fast forward to 1997 and Blair's mob. One of the first things they did was to abolish the APS on the grounds it was elitist and wasn't fair. Everybody should be equal in their eyes - equally sh1t that is. The Tories have done the square root of sod all to reinvigorate the programme and consequently, we now have discussions over a lack of social mobility amongst the poorer sections of society. Well who'd have seen that coming on the back of a piece of crass educational vandalism?!

I'd argue the situation is exactly the same in terms of diversity. I'm not aware of a single positive thing either of them have done to legitimately encourage diversity other than preaching quotas and trying or bring everyone down to the same common denominators. And guess what, the same types of questions about why coloured individuals are getting the rough end of the wedge. Quotas are not the answer; they just breed cynicism and contempt of the entire process and those unfortunate enough to qualify under a quota spend their life under constant suspicion that they got there as part of some lefty box ticking exercise, even if they are good operators. If I ruled the world, I'd ban politicians from reading newspapers or watching the news and then they might stop bloody headline chasing and do the job properly.

[Pontius Navigator]

"Bearer my gun" was used by an SAS Sgt captured by the ARG in West Falklands after the officer had been killed. The ARG was quite prepared to believe white officers had black porters to carry their kit.

[Courtney Mil]

Good call, Melchett.

[minigundiplomat]

Maybe we should sub-contract recruitment to ISIS. They seem to have a good handle on it these days.....

[tmmorris]

I also had the benefit of the APS, and now teach in an independent school. But the cost of school fees has rocketed in that time, and either the APS budget would have had to to increase, or the number of kids funded drop, to make the books balance.

WHY the fees have shot up is a different question...

[Tankertrashnav]

And quite a few Nepalese, which probably skews the Army % a little.


When I was at Kai Tak we had a number of Ghurkas based there for security. One of their Nepalese officers (a commissioned officer, not a Queens Gurkha Officer which is a different thing) lived in the mess. Having done three years at Sandhurst he spoke in that way that all the Ruperts of that period spoke, and although he was far too polite to mention it I got the distinct impression that he felt he was slumming it having to mix with a bunch of uncouth RAF officers, complete with regional accents!

tmmorris The answer to your question is of course China (and to a lesser extent Russia). I taught at Marlborough for a brief spell, and the first of a wave of Russian and Chinese pupils had just arrived. I was teaching Russian and I was rather nervous to discover that I had a Russian boy in the class of 13 year olds I took. I was relieved when I discovered that he had told his classmates that my Russian was "quite good"! I also taught a Chinese 6th former who was a delightful lad, but who, I discovered, could have bought everything I owned out of the change in his back pocket. There must be a great temptation for public schools to milk the insatiable demand for an English public school education from wealthy Chinese, etc, but if they are not careful they are going to price out all but the wealthiest in this country, which would be a shame.

[skua]

TT
My old school has adopted the sensible policy of having a finite cap (12% from memory) of non-UK pupils. (It has very strong demand and can afford to be choosy). IMHO this sort of cap is essential to retain the ethos of these schools (and the sanity of their teachers!).

[walter kennedy]

Way back in 1977 there was a fine young man (Mike P.), who looked "black", on 31 PTC in the old Rhodesian Air Force - he got through as a pilot (and of course as an officer) - that country worked on merit.
However with 24 Africans to one ethnic European affirmative action would not have worked well back then - the whites kept it going as a functional country, did they not?

Out of Trim posted an interesting one:
<<Pass the question back to Camoron.. How many black Prime Ministers have we had?>>
Now I am sure that black people are a higher percentage of the UK population than Jews, yet Cameron is not the first prime minister with Jewish roots, is he?
But of course he (along with all "western" leaders) is committed to promoting multiculturalism, is he not?
BTW I recall Colin Powell being quoted as saying, when asked about his career success as a black man, something like "I'm not all that black".

You don't have to be a racist bigot to be concerned that every part of your national makeup has been systematically dismantled without debate let alone referendum in our democracies since WW2 - if the argument is that "we don't want nationalism to raise its ugly head again" then I say destroying the nation state to achieve that aim is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, my old school folded after 430 years. Recently it had increased its rolls, admitted girls, but ultimately faced fewer new pupils. I don't know what did for it except rising costs. I don't think foreign students was the main driver but HMC wage comparators could have been the final straw.

[Pontius Navigator]

Jenkins, good guess

[Pontius Navigator]

Of course.

[Bigbux]

Right - no stupid comments please!

I see in the BBC News Cameron attacks race bias in courts and universities - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35452975) that DC has 'warned the police, the courts and the armed forces they also had to act' on the issue, noting that 'there are no black generals in the UK armed forces'.

Personally, I always thought that people were promoted in the UK Armed Forces purely on merit.....:hmm:

Unless you are a Royal, of course. Sorry, wrong thread.

[Innominate]

Slight thread drift, but this: Research | Online Exhibitions | Pilots of the Caribbean (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/online-exhibitions/pilots-of-the-caribbean.aspx) may be of interest.

[ShotOne]

"Service humour..?" Ah yes, beagle. The trouble with that is, context is everything. I'm prepared to believe your rock-ape jape may have been genuine humour. How about the marine forced to carry a spear on exercise and undergo a "special n****r initiation ceremony" or a Household Cavalry trooper (rather,THE Household Cavalry trooper) who had a banana thrown at him? These were all excused as service humour by the perpetrators. There was even a little banana joke (bunch of...) earlier in this thread. Ho ho! Which brings us back to your tale of a Jamaican student-pilot allocated call sign "Sambo" and yes I am aware the instructor was of Asian origin. I can assure you that this wouldn't wash in any other environment. This isn't mud slung by some race lobbyist; unbelievably it's your own "evidence" of the rosy state of race relations in the present-day services.

[Pontius Navigator]

Shot, sadly the issue is perception.

The remark, perfectly true as it happens,"you're looking a little off colour today" may be a funny quip but noir appreciated by the recipient.

"I like your new hair do" may be interpreted as "you're old hair do was cr^p"

"Thank you dear" rather than "ta mate"

And of course it is not necessarily the recipient that may be affronted.

[BEagle]

When my same UK/Jamaican chum ran out of anti-G pressure on the range, back in the crew room he announced "I almost blacked out pulling out of the next strafe dive".....

"Almost?" came the reply.

"Ah bugger, you know what I meant!" he responded, with his usual chuckle.

[Basil]

Likewise from ethnically African paratroop following little zero (that's all we will admit to) g event on trooping flight:
"I turned white back there and it ain't a pleasant experience!"

[Wander00]

Further to the reference to Pilots of the Caribbean, this link might be of interest. Ulric Cross was the most senior black aircrew officer in the RAF during the war, and the most decorated. I met Ulric Cross at the Pathfinders 50th in 1992 which we ran at RAF Wyton. At that stage he was High Commissioner for Trinidad and Tobago, and also his country's Ambassador to both Germany and France. He was without doubt one of the most impressive people I have ever met.


Ulric Cross - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/10365034/Ulric-Cross.html)

[Brian 48nav]

Careful! Some sensitive soul here may think you are patronising him!

[Wander00]

B48, thanks but Ulric Cross is the last guy I would patronise, were he with us. Sadly he died a couple of years ago.

[BEagle]

The same sort of sensitive soul who might think that the nickname given to an Indian navigator at Brize was patronising....

It was 'Chartwallah' - and he thought it was excellent!

One day the phone rang in the crewroom. It was some Fighter Controller person-formerly-known-as-WRAF who wanted to know when sunset would fall at the Taj Mahal in a few weeks time, when her parents would be there on holiday.

So we looked for a navigator who would have a copy of the Maniac to hand - and the first one we found was Chartwallah. He had the whole room in hysterics as he put on some Peter Sellers 'goodness gracious me' accent as he spoke to her about how he had studied under some learned professor at the University of Bombay and was 'looking in his books' for her answer. One of the co-pilots nearly passed a kidney as Chartwallah kept us his 'Indian' monologue for several minutes, finally concluding 'Ah, dear lady, I am now finding the answer'......

[Brian 48nav]

Beags - That is priceless and what British humour is all about. I wonder if said nav' had been on the Herc' back in the day?
In fact one of them does post on PPrune; I won't give his nom-de-plume away.

[BEagle]

When Gorbachev came to chat with Maggy at Brize, most people were told to Foxtrot Oscar, leaving just a few essential personnel to cope with things.

Chartwallah elected to spend the afternoon sorting out his front garden. Spotting Raisa being driven through Cartoontown, he gave her a friendly wave...

"Smart move, Chartwallah", one chap remarked, "Now she'll go back to Gorbi' and tell him that the Brits still have slaves toiling in the fields!".....

[Hangarshuffle]

Quite how the PM can comment on elitism, and with a straight face, actually doesn't surprise me. I don't think people in the military make it on merit anyway, its more about survival, luck and being seen to do the right thing at the right time. Got to put on an accent as well. Theres' some realy very good uns, but also some shockers.
How come we have black sportsmen, who can compete and win at the highest level in the world, but not a one can make it as an officer? In the RN I don't think I ever met a black aircrew officer, nor a black OOW. One or two SD's - who were what they were.
Long, long way to go in Britain. In fact, we are going backwards.

[langleybaston]

our black swimmers don't do too well, do they?

[Hangarshuffle]

Neither did our white ones in the last 'lympics, if we are on it Langley.
Come on, how can a member of the Bullingdon club actually dare comment on a fair society? On one where everything in life is purely is achieved on merit? Pull the other.
Amazed. The same old crap patronizing attitude runs right through the officer corp in the UK Armed Forces. Not one gets up that ladder on merit alone.

[langleybaston]

I must have been very very lucky to counteract my lack of merit.

By the way, its corps, not corp, or was when I got lucky.