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RIGHTSEATKC135
29th Jan 2016, 23:00
Boeing's new 737 MAX plane takes its maiden flight | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/01/29/boeings-new-737-max-plane-takes-its-maiden-flight.html?intcmp=hplnws)

tdracer
29th Jan 2016, 23:22
I saw it at lunch time flying by Paine Field in Everett - I presume they were doing a simulated go-around.
I was trying to access the noise level as it climbed away (787s and 747-8s are noticeably quieter than the 777s and 767s that fly out of Paine), but it was hard to tell due to the (noisy) T-38 chase plane right next to it. :(

stilton
30th Jan 2016, 01:46
That is not a good looking aircraft :yuk:

Goat Whisperer
30th Jan 2016, 01:56
It's really just a 737. Minimal change.

wanabee777
30th Jan 2016, 01:56
That is not a good looking aircraft :yuk:

_________+1

neville_nobody
30th Jan 2016, 02:00
Wait till you see the cockpit:ugh:

Jonno_aus
30th Jan 2016, 03:11
Well, it LOOKS like it goes fast?

Jonno_aus
30th Jan 2016, 03:39
http://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/status/693128525650333696/photo/1


Check out the right engine. It's bigger then the left!!!! And makes sense after reading Boeings Press Release that said "it will fly rings around the other aircraft".

So they new it was bad from the start..:ugh:



:p

ACMS
30th Jan 2016, 04:59
Don't tell me, Airbus fans and you love the A320, right?

Ignorance is bliss I guess....:ugh:

Jonno_aus
30th Jan 2016, 05:20
...but as a pax only, the A320 is one noisy 'bus'! (<see what I did?) Not a fan.

Kinda needed to see the pic from Twitter then my 'serious' post would've made sense. Along with my tongue in cheek emoticon. Omg. I just spelt it out. Haha.

But oh no. Ppprune makes everything harder then it needs to with posting pics.


:O

No Fly Zone
30th Jan 2016, 05:21
IMO, the 737MAX is a good airplane, but still has to prove herself through the battery of cert. text. While Boeing has made a few errors here and there, if the engines prove themselves, they have another winner on their hands - and they cannot build them fast enough.

neville_nobody
30th Jan 2016, 06:33
IMO, the 737MAX is a good airplane, but still has to prove herself through the battery of cert. text.

You mean the same certification stuff they held onto from about 1967??:rolleyes: That's before the moon landing!

All they're testing is that the engines won't blow up and that the new electrics won't catch on fire.

Everything else is pretty well been tested to death over the last 45 years. Remember this is the same type certificate from the 60's!

Rwy in Sight
30th Jan 2016, 09:03
You mean the same certification stuff they held onto from about 1967??:rolleyes: That's before the moon landing!

All they're testing is that the engines won't blow up and that the new electrics won't catch on fire.

Everything else is pretty well been tested to death over the last 45 years. Remember this is the same type certificate from the 60's!

Don,t forget about flying straight and level without doing any nose hard over.

Sorry couldt resist.

Aluminium shuffler
30th Jan 2016, 09:19
You mean rudder hard over? If you're going to be critical, at least be right. The rudder hard over issue was fixed in the mid 90s.

The aircraft looks fine from the outside to me. Prettier than anything Airbus make, anyway. I'm not a fan of the new display screens, though, one pilot losing half their nav display in order to display engine parameters or any systems displays. That was evidently done for cost, not practicality. It is also way past time they improved the central warning system (very unreliable) and the switchgear for the hydraulics and anti-ice, neither of which has been attended to despite the history.

stilton
30th Jan 2016, 09:35
Not an AB fan at all but the A320 NEO looks great, everything in proportion, even with the bigger engines its an attractive aircraft.


The MAX may be efficient but its ugly, sitting low to the ground but having the nose gear jacked up to give the engines adequate clearance, the same ancient nose section from the 707 and all that cr*p at the end of the wings, it looks like it tried to taxi through too narrow a space.


I'm sure this Boeing will be a good aircraft but its seriously aesthetically challenged, even the 787 looks better.

deptrai
30th Jan 2016, 09:44
I find similarities equally interesting as differences...if you compare the 737 Max and A350 (same generation) flight deck, there are a few: the big screens, the "mouse" or camel hump for lack of a better word, no trim wheels.

Weary traveller
30th Jan 2016, 09:57
United have been operating a 737 out of Hong Kong for a while with those same winglets. Are they an option on current 737's?

pax britanica
30th Jan 2016, 10:37
Well boeing will no doubt build lots of them whatever is said on here

It words and its economical despite being basically 50 years old on the surface.

Massive commonality issues for mega users like Southwest and Ryanair and i think that sort of thing decides whether an airline buys Boeing or Airbus a lot of the time for single aisle aircraft. (of course some huge carriers buy both)

Theres' not alot of difference except in the comfort stakes where unsurprisingly the newer AB design wins hands down being designed for the larger frame pax of the end of the 20th century not the slimline folks of the 50s . And if you have been on the two flight decks the AB advantage is even greater unless you are wedded to yokes.

However pax comfort is not somethign the airlines give a toss about and crew comfort comes even lower down the list and so we will soldier on until 2040 or so with much the same designs as have dominated the airways and gate spaces of the world since the 1980s

Doors to Automatic
30th Jan 2016, 10:50
Does anyone know if the new Max8 will have slower landing speed than the current -800? The latter lands very fast especially at Flap 30 - 148kts typically.

Heathrow Harry
30th Jan 2016, 10:57
Let's not turn this into the usual A v B fight ladies & gentlemen

Both aircraft will be better than their predecessors, will sell in the thousands and will be the backbone of global flying for the next 40-50 years

Lets hope they make the airlines some cash.....

glad rag
30th Jan 2016, 11:16
Does it have PEPSI on the side?

Scuffers
30th Jan 2016, 11:34
Let's not turn this into the usual A v B fight ladies & gentlemen

without wishing to stir this pot, I do think (with this 'new' 737) we are starting to see the balance of power shift to AB, Boeing seem to be on the back foot now in every segment, their only real 'new' plane is the 787, and in the meantime, AB have not been so timid with the A380, A350, 320neo and now the 330neo.

captjns
30th Jan 2016, 11:49
A good reliable income producing airframe for Boeing.

Same crappy cockpit with the eh same crappy seats with the 787 displays. Gee wiz.

whitelighter
30th Jan 2016, 16:17
The split winglet is available on current 737 - or at least the 800.

Southwest in the states were the first to get them. Quite a few Thomson 737-8 aircraft have them in the UK

FlyingStone
30th Jan 2016, 16:41
Both aircraft will be better than their predecessors

Better, but only just. The undeniable fact is that A320 is 20 years younger in its roots than B737. You can put new wing, engine, winglets, LED cabin lighting, etc., but it will still be good old B737 with almost zero respect for pilot comfort: manual switching (fuel, hyd, elec, pitot heat, you name it) pressurization panel design that might kill you one day, non-reduntant six-pack announciator that is a no-go item and doesn't give you ANY warning if the master caution button stucks in the pressed position, etc.

Sure, it's a nice aircraft to fly, but not for the ranges it's being able now thanks to the lower and lower fuel consumption. I don't envy guys flying BBJ, not even a bit.

archae86
30th Jan 2016, 17:29
The split scimitar second generation winglet which has recently been appearing as retrofits on Boeing NG 737s (especially Southwest and United -800 models) differs appreciably from the split winglet on the 737 MAX.

The angles are not the same, precluding detailed comparison, but you can still tell these are not the same
MAX split winglet:
http://www.b737.org.uk/images/winglet-at.jpg
Split scimitar now available for 737-700, 800, 900, and BBJ
http://www.b737.org.uk/images/winglet-splitscimitar.jpg

oceancrosser
30th Jan 2016, 23:04
Does anyone know if the new Max8 will have slower landing speed than the current -800? The latter lands very fast especially at Flap 30 - 148kts typically.

Boeing currently projects Vref of 149 kts, Flaps 30 at MLGW.

wanabee777
31st Jan 2016, 00:05
Boeing currently projects Vref of 149 kts, Flaps 30 at MLGW.

Wonder what the speed is at typical landing gross weights.

stilton
31st Jan 2016, 03:25
I actually prefer the higher vref speeds, never flown the 737 but the higher approach speeds on the 757-300 and 767-400 made for a more stable
aircraft in gusty winds that went where you put it.


A light 757-200 handles like a kite in strong winds at those much lower approach speeds, it gets blown all over the place, flaps 25 helped a lot though :ok:

Duck Pilot
31st Jan 2016, 04:47
Wish Boeing would retro the 727, ahh now that would be the dream machine. It would solve the ETOPS issues!

SR-22
1st Feb 2016, 17:56
Stilton: I have flown both 737/738 and 752/753 and found the 757s to be more stable in gusty winds at normal landing weights despite having lower speeds than the 737, except a light 752 like you mention. Agreed on the flaps 25, always works like a charm

wanabee777
1st Feb 2016, 18:43
McDonnell's business model ended Douglas Aircraft Corp just as surely as it will bring down Boeing's commercial passenger aircraft division.

Technically, Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas. But, as Richard Aboulafia, a noted industry analyst with the Teal Group, told me, "McDonnell Douglas in effect acquired Boeing with Boeing's money." McDonnell Douglas executives became key players in the new company, and the McDonnell Douglas culture, averse to risk and obsessed with cost-cutting, weakened Boeing's historical commitment to making big investments in new products. Aboulafia says, "After the merger, there was a real battle over the future of the company, between the engineers and the finance and sales guys." The nerds may have been running the show in Silicon Valley, but at Boeing they were increasingly marginalized by the bean counters.
Mark Lacter - LA Observed

silvertate
1st Feb 2016, 19:28
Same crappy cockpit with the eh same crappy seats with the 787 displays. Gee wiz.

I'll second that. Considering we spend up to 14 hours sitting down, why do Boeing provide the worst seats in any industry? I have no problem with car seats or office seats, but the Boeing is like sitting on a park bench all day. Actually, I would prefer it if they dump the 100k seat, and fit a 5 deck-chair instead. It would be a darn sight more comfortable.

ST

stilton
1st Feb 2016, 22:11
Interesting SR22, thanks for that, makes sense, bigger, heavier aircraft always seem to fly better.


I had flown the 757 for years before we started recommending F25 in gusty winds, quite a difference in handling, makes life a lot easier and I started using it all the time, except for very short runways, another benefit is it seemed to help alleviate that 'dead spot in pitch' as you lower the nose and sometimes loose elevator effectiveness.


Best wishes.

AR1
2nd Feb 2016, 13:56
Well, there's no getting around it - It IS AB v Boeing...

Its a rehash of an old plane, looks old too. - I could put shorts on, but I still wouldn't look 21 again. But if they get the price right.. Who knows.

neville_nobody
3rd Feb 2016, 01:50
If the A320Neo can sort out the engines and they don't have a host of tech issues then I think the Max is going to get hurt as it is just lipstick on a pig.

However if the Neo starts having problems then the Max will be lauded as great new aeroplane and will still be flying around in 2030+ with no EICAS/No fly by wire/manual everything.

Meanwhile people will still be writing articles about autonomous aircraft being just around the corner:rolleyes:

FlexibleResponse
3rd Feb 2016, 08:45
It kind of reminds me of the Checker cab...

RVF750
3rd Feb 2016, 09:10
...Lipstick on a pig. What a metaphor! Brilliant.

My wish is one day they'll put a flippin' carpet in the flight deck. That's all, just a bit of sound deadening and felt on the floor. Is it too much to ask?

Firstpost
3rd Feb 2016, 09:36
Looking at the first post, I thought this to be rubbish, there was no maiden flight of the aircraft in question. Then I saw it covered by some real news agencies, not only FOX...
But on more serious notes, even though this aircraft isn't exactly new it's probably a potential moneymaker. I say, well done Boeing, congratulations for being able to market this 60 year old design as new. :cool:

peekay4
3rd Feb 2016, 14:06
The 737MAX already has more than 3000 orders totaling $200 billion+ at list, and it's just getting started.

The A320neo caught Boeing off-guard, but barring a major unforeseen issue the 737MAX will be a big moneymaker for Boeing until the all-new 737 comes out in 2030.

Localiser Established
3rd Feb 2016, 15:21
The A320neo caught Boeing off-guard, but barring a major unforeseen issue the 737MAX will be a big moneymaker for Boeing until the all-new 737 comes out in 2030. I bet you there will never be an all-new 737. I'm sick and tired of this 'type-commonality' excuse that Boeing is always quick to point out. Real truth is that it is a cost saving gimmick.

Just give us an EICAS!!!! That is clearly too much to ask for :ugh:

tdracer
3rd Feb 2016, 16:14
Real truth is that it is a cost saving gimmick.
It's not a cost savings for Boeing - they wanted to put the 757 flight deck on the 737ng for manufacturing commonalty and cost savings 20 years ago. The cost savings is for the operators for crew training.

Boeing really wanted to replace the 737ng with an entirely new airplane instead of doing the Max, but Airbus forced their hand with the NEO. Not only would an all new aircraft required a much longer development time, it would have taken several years more after it was certified to ramp production up to the current 40 or 50 aircraft/month. That would have basically meant conceding a 500-600 aircraft/year market to AB for many years.

My personal crystal ball says Boeing will launch a new airplane program in the early to mid 2020s for the 150-250 passenger market - basically a 737/757 replacement. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not single aisle.

Herod
3rd Feb 2016, 16:39
It the autopilot finally connected to the rudder?

Denti
3rd Feb 2016, 16:45
It the autopilot finally connected to the rudder?

Already was in the NG (700-900). If you paid for it that is. But i believe the spoilers are now fly by wire.

El Sche
4th Feb 2016, 16:05
Everyone seems to consider the A320 a modern aircraft, it's an airplane from the 80's, the Neo version is "just" an upgrade of the actual aircraft. It's still the same cockpit with small screens, an technology from the 80's, no HUD...

The 737Max is also just an upgrade but at least, Boeing changed the screens for a more modern layout... Airbus had this opportunity to integrate the A350 (or A380) cockpit but remain with this old and noisy cockpit ( I know, it is less noisy than the 737 but still very noisy!)

The main problem is that aircrafts are created for airlines, not for pilots...:mad:

Heathrow Harry
4th Feb 2016, 16:07
well if pilots are willing to pay for them................. :cool::cool::cool:

Herod
4th Feb 2016, 17:02
Already was in the NG (700-900). If you paid for it that is.

Certainly not in the -700s I flew, but then, when it's a case of paying for it, I'm surprised we had an autopilot at all. ;)

Denti
5th Feb 2016, 02:34
It's still the same cockpit with small screens, an technology from the 80's, no HUD...

I agree with the screens, and quite a bit of the technology. Although, airbus does some changes behind the scenes, still, not nearly as much as boeing does on the 737. But a HUD is available on the A320 for a long time now. We have some planes equipped with it and its a big headache for the captains....


every time they forget about it and bonk their head on the big ugly thing.

Aluminium shuffler
5th Feb 2016, 07:25
Already was in the NG (700-900). If you paid for it that is. But i believe the spoilers are now fly by wire.

I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. What is the point in roll out guidance for Cat IIIB if there are only two autopilots, limiting it to Cat IIIA? As for FBW spoilers, that'll be a cost and weight saving measure, getting rid of the old mechanical spoiler mixer unit. It won't make any difference to the pilots, but I'll bet the overall handling will be even worse than the NG; the Classic flew nicely, but the NG was horrible - bad harmonisation with heavy and sluggish roll but a bit twitchy in pitch, far less stable than the old airframe and badly behaved in the flare (prone to floating, but suddenly dropping if you get below VREF+5, an unpleasant characteristic of supercritical wings). Recent developments are doing wonders for performance, but handling is suffering badly. But who cares? SOPs dictate the use of automatics, so the industry can just blame lazy pilots who don't practice hand flying for the shoddy handling characteristics of modern airframes...

Torquelink
5th Feb 2016, 12:21
neo currently at approx. 60%, MAX 40% overall sales. PW1000G offering additional 2% sfc improvement by 2019 which CFM can't match in the timescale. If the PW engine continues to stay one step ahead of the LEAP, the AB share will continue to grow at B's expense. Already B rumoured to be considering a stretched MAX9 with jacked up gear and new wing to take on the A321neoLR. More likely B will be forced into earlier launch of all new family spanning 150 - 300 seats: common cockpit, systems etc but perhaps two fuselage diameters i.e. taking a 757/767 approach again - worked last time but will incur $10bn - $15bn non-recurring and will have to deliver step change economic improvement over neo - tough call.

Denti
5th Feb 2016, 14:26
I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. What is the point in roll out guidance for Cat IIIB if there are only two autopilots, limiting it to Cat IIIA?

Why would 2 autopilots limit it to CAT IIIa? Two are plenty, the A320 series never had more and was CAT IIIb approved out of the box from the start. As is the 737NG since 2001. We fly to the normal 75m RVR no DH minimum on both types.

To be honest i can't really confirm your story about bad landings and handling on the NG. Yes, it was a change transitioning from the classic and i do prefer the classics handling, especially in roll, but the NG was after some getting used to as easy to fly and land in my opinion.

Vee1.rotate
5th Feb 2016, 15:01
Aluminium Shuffler,

I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. What is the point in roll out guidance for Cat IIIB if there are only two autopilots, limiting it to Cat IIIA?

Well, you're wrong there.Cat IIIB capability does not require 3 autopilots.Denti was correct in his statement,the later versions of the 737 NG are capable of CAT IIIb operations.
As far I recall among other things required there have to be 3 seperate inertial guidance sources to provide data to the FCCs.On the later variants of the 737 NG the third source is the ISFD standby instrument unit.Plus Boeinog implemented changes to the rudder system to allow the Autopilot to control the rudder during rollout guidance.

The a320 btw is also Cat3b capable as far as I know and also features only 2 AP.

Kind regards,

Vee1.rotate

Edit:oops,Denti beat me to it.

captplaystation
5th Feb 2016, 15:05
Don't know about harder to fly, think it is merely what you get used to.
I went through a phase in my career, where I flew the 300/400/500 with periods of only 1 variant for months at a time. After a few days any of them seemed fine, as it was when I alternated between the 3 at once.

In any case, there is much more variation between an empty airframe vs one at Max Landing Mass.

For sure the Classic with its nice thick wing is easier to grease on . . . . but, that is not what we are "supposed" to do anyhow according to Mr Boeing, so, don't complain to him.

FWIW I preferred the 800 pre winglets, but none of them are nicer to fly/land than a 300W.


Oh, and those who have flown the 900 don't have a good word to say about its handling.

ZFT
5th Feb 2016, 15:52
It's still the same cockpit with small screens, an technology from the 80's,

A350 style displays are scheduled for std 2.1 I believe, so not too far away.