Weather CAMS - CASA has no interest?

[Dick Smith]

I wrote to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority a while back suggesting they fund – it wouldn’t cost too much, weather CAMS at places like Kilmore Gap, Mittagong, Mount Victoria and other places where safety could be improved.

I’ve recently noted in an article the following,

“The FAA’s own data from Alaska shows that a federally funded system of 221 aviation weather cameras installed there since 1999 have become a critical aid to flight planning and have enhanced safety.

A 2012 FAA survey of Alaska, Part 135 operators concluded that weather CAM data has become an integral part of flight planning and go, no go decision making.

The NTSB credits them for contributing to a 53% reduction in weather related aviation accidents between 2008 and 2011. The cameras have also helped cut unnecessary flight hours due to unreliability of weather information by 64%.”
If you’re interested I suggest you have a look at this FAA site. The Loop provision is particularly good Also if you click on one of the pics the clear day image is shown for comparison FAA Aviation Weather Cameras - Home (http://avcams.faa.gov/)

As you will note, this site covers the AV CAMS in Alaska. They are incredibly fantastic. I wonder if there had been AV CAMS at Lockhart River showing that the weather was clear to the east, whether we would have had that unnecessary accident.

[Kelly Slater]

Just found Sarah Palin with a gun and a moose on St. Lawrence Island, more than enough detail to be invaluable to flight planning. This type of camera definitely has a place in Australian Aviation, just needs someone to fund it.

[peterc005]

The problem is who would have responsibility (and liability) for the web cams - CASA, Air Services, the airfield operator, BoM?

Some airfields already have cams:

Bendigo Aviation Services (http://www.bendigoaviation.com.au/weather.html)

There is also a website that aggregates the airfield cameras:

Bendigo Airport Webcam « Airport Webcams.net (http://airportwebcams.net/bendigo-airport-webcam/)

[spinex]

Sounds like a worthwhile initiative. I've used privately funded webcams popular with stormchasers and others with a weather interest for some time now, eg to see what the cloud is doing at Cunninghams Gap and how it has developed over the past few hours. More reliable too than phoning your mate with a farm nearby too, as I've found before now:ok:

[Slippery_Pete]

The problem is who would have responsibility (and liability) for the web cams - CASA, Air Services, the airfield operator, BoM?


Not a personal attack peterc005 :) ... However;

This attitude epitomises what is wrong with aviation in this country. Everyone is so busy trying to wipe their hands of any and every legal responsibility, we'll go to the lengths of not installing a great safety aid so no-one can get sued.

It's what is wrong with CASA - and it's what's wrong with Airservices.

When liability alone drives every decision, no-one has time to worry about safety.

[Ixixly]

Excellent Idea, I worked in Vanuatu for a few years and they had some excellent Webcams set up on the main island which were absolutely invaluable and seeing as how the vast majority of our flights were either leaving there or going there they helped us immensely.

I don't think liability would be an issue with the cameras would there? They're either there or not, they're provided as an "Aid" so no one should be able to sue if they were not available, but there would have to be someone responsible for looking after them of course.

[Ultralights]

the Katoomba Skyway has a decent webcam setup, and also, the Bathurst Aero club.

[josephfeatherweight]

The problem is who would have responsibility (and liability) for the web cams - CASA, Air Services, the airfield operator, BoM?

I agree wholeheartedly with Slippery_Pete - and, also, not an attack on peterc005, but this is the problem with the WHOLE COUNTRY!

[Acrosport II]

Not a personal attack peterc005 ... However;

This attitude epitomises what is wrong with aviation in this country. Everyone is so busy trying to wipe their hands of any and every legal responsibility, we'll go to the lengths of not installing a great safety aid so no-one can get sued.

It's what is wrong with CASA - and it's what's wrong with Airservices.

When liability alone drives every decision, no-one has time to worry about safety.

Its not just a problem with CASA or Air Services, Its a problem with Australia.

Something we inherited from the US of A while trying so hard to be like them.

Only winners are the lawyers and judges, who end up multi millionaires at others expense. Everyone else just has to wear the huge cost to the country they have created.
Only solution would be some sort of legislation 'Controlling' it.

Case in point, My sons school asked for Parents to offer to set up their own little (Stall), a 3m x 3m Gazebo at the School Fete to raise money. If you did though, YOU (every stall individually) had to buy $3 Million worth of 'Public Liability' Insurance for the day.

Every time my Son has a sports day (or anything), they send a form I have to sign absolving them of any care or responsibility for my child and me agreeing to pay All costs should something happen. (Schools do not have insurance).

NZ probably has more reasonably sized Airshows each year than Aus, even though they are 1/6 of the population.

Whos the real leaders here!

Bloody Ridiculous.

Change the Law, Stop this rot.

[no_one]

Something we inherited from the US of A while trying so hard to be like them.


Did you not see the top post. They are doing it in the USA!!!! How come they can solve the liability thing but we cant?

[4forward8back]

Fantastic (and surely cheap) idea to improve safety. I regularly use the Port of Melbourne cams to asses the weather.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Canada has them too at a lot of remote ports.
Used them daily and they were invaluable in flight planning. I can't believe that with today's cheap mobile data that they cant be installed.
Webcam + 3G. Can't cost anymore than $10 a month to run.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I wonder if there had been AV CAMS at Lockhart River showing that the weather was clear to the east, whether we would have had that unnecessary accident.

Dick, its a shame to "cloud" I wonder if there had been AV CAMS at Lockhart River showing that the weather was clear to the east, whether we would have had that unnecessary accident. ardon the pun!) the argument for weather cams with a comment like that! If the crew had flown the Lockhart R approach as it is written, "we would (not) have had that unnecessary accident"!

I have benefited from the weather cams in Alaska. Was booked to fly to a remote fishing lodge a couple of years ago, however, a pre-flight look at the weather cam resulted in a cancelled flight. Next day, we sat on the ground until the weather looked OK, and then off we went for an uneventful flight to our destination.

In the part of the world where I fly, weather cams at Cunninghams Gap, the Brisbane light aircraft lane north, Thorntons Gap west of Townsville etc to name a few would be very useful for VFR pilots.

[Lead Balloon]

What, precisely, are the "liability" issues? :confused:

When an AWIS goes U/S, who gets sued?

When a TAF is inaccurate, who gets sued?

[DWB50]

An excellent & building site for weather webcams is Weather Forecast & Reports - Long Range & Local | Wunderground | Weather Underground (http://www.wunderground.com)
Not only webcams but more weather stations in various places across the country with live data from personal weather stations which invariably are very accurate these days. I have been feeding wx and image data into this sytem now for almost a year

Also see here: http://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?lat=-32.380&lon=150.699&zoom=13&tl.play=0&tl.spd=2&viewportstart=now-3881&viewportend=now-281&groupSevere=1&groupHurricane=1&%3BgroupFire=1&groupCamsPhotos=1&groupRealEstate=1&eyedropper=0&extremes=0&fault=0&favs=0&femaflood=0&fire=0&%3Bfirewfas=0&fissures=0&fronts=0&hurrevac=0&hur=0&%3Blabels=0&lightning=0&livesurge=0&mm=0&ndfd=0&rad=0&dir=1&dir.mode=driving&sst=0&sat=0&seismicrisk=0&svr=0&ski=0&snowfall=0&stateLines=0&stormreports=0&tor=0&tfk=0&tsunami=0&riv=0&wxsn=1&wxsn.mode=tw&wxsn.opa=50&wxsn.bcdgtemp=0&wxsn.rf=1&wxsn.showpws=1&cams=1&pix=0

[Sunfish]

The "safety" in CASAs title is about keeping the Government safe from the consequences of aviating. They have no interest in your or my continued existence whatsoever. Therefore they have no interest in webcams as a safety tool except as a method of obtaining evidence for prosecution. Besides, the military have no use for them.

[mustafagander]

Try Australian Weathercam Network.

[Squawk7700]

Thanks Dick for bringing this up. Many of us have been doing this at our local fields for years and I noticed that OzRunways have incorporated a feed into their app, but I'd never really considered our regulator providing this service. It's a great idea and if you can advise the best person(s) to write to regarding this initiative, please post the details!

PS: that link is amazing there are literally hundreds of cameras on there !
FAA Aviation Weather Cameras - Home (http://avcams.faa.gov/)

Sunfish - it's clear you had a bad experience with CASA as a young child. Leave that between yourself and CASA, you don't have to bring it up EVERY time those four letters appear on here!

[Arm out the window]

Weather cams - great idea!

Caution Dick's style though (and this is what makes me extremely dubious about what he would do as a politician) - note the headline and the spin.

Headline: Weather CAMS - CASA has no interest? (immediately getting people up in arms, bloody CASA, why haven't those bastards acted etc etc)

Spin: I wrote to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority a while back ... places like Kilmore Gap ... safety could be improved.

Nowhere does he say how long ago, what form these suggestions took, who he wrote to specifically, or what response was received.

No, in his inimitable style he says something to inflame the masses (us) in order to further his own agenda. You watch, there'll probably be an Australian article in due course bringing this up as part of his platform to run for election, or some other personal aim.

Good luck to him in the end, and he's done a hell of a lot that I and many of us would never be able to replicate, but do be aware that just about everything he writes as far as I've seen is manipulative, which annoys the hell out of me.

Why can't sitting or would-be politicians just say it straight for a change?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I raised this point on another post, but here it is again....

At one of those CASA briefings at JT some time ago, it was made VERY clear by the 'briefing' officer, Miss T Miller, representing CASA, that the ONLY 'approved' source for pilots obtaining weather info, is from Airservices. Period.

This is despite the fact that many area forecasts have (had) the local Met Bureau Tel number on the text and the instructions to ring for an elaboration / explanation.

BUT, we were told....the ONLY approved source is Airservices....

Additionally, I pointed out that in the 'good ole days' of F.S. we would take the various weather info messages direct from the BOM via the printer / computer, and disseminate it 'verbatim'. F.S. being the 'voice' of Airservices at the time.
In the event of a query we would ring BOM direct and clarify any issues,
BUT....as a pilot....the ONLY approved source is Airservices.....

So now, my thoughts must be 'censored' - but suffice it to say, that IF the same 'rationale' prevails, then Airservices is the ONLY.....one who can supply and be 'responsible for' said cameras for a pilot to access for 'approved' weather info(?)

Perhaps the originator of the enquiry could re-direct his enquiry there..??

No cheers, nope, none at all!:=

[gerry111]

Hear, Hear, AOTW.


But Dick is a 'National Treasure' to the majority out there in 2GB land. For they cannot see that he is forever furthering his own agenda.


I'm glad that you can see it. Few others here apparently can.

[VH-MLE]

Personally, I would like to see more BoM weather radars installed around the country. As a West Australian, central WA i.e. Meekatharra, would be a reasonable start...

Regards.

VH-MLE

[Lead Balloon]

Just because Airservices is the only approved source does not mean pilots are prohibited from taking into consideration relevant and available information from unapproved sources.

To suggest that I'm prohibited from looking at a Webcam at my intended location, or ringing my mate in the area and asking him whether he can see the radio mast on Mount Dangerous, as well as consider the relevant ARFOR, TAF (and METAR etc if available), seems to me to be a pretty stupid suggestion.

To suggest that I'm "safe" if I make decisions taking into account only Airservices-sourced information that turns out to be inaccurate, but "unsafe" if I make decisions taking into account other information that turns out to be accurate, seems to me to be an equally stupid suggestion.

(Dick: You wrote to the wrong people. Try writing to the people in charge.)

[no_one]

Lead Balloon,

Your first paragraph is contradicted by the regulations a pilot must only use approved sources and no others. Its ridiculous and is a classic of example of where the rules lead to less safe outcomes.

I agree with what you say, ringing a friend to ask about the clouds at your destination is a prudent thing to do however the regulations specifically prohibit it.


CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 120

Weather reports not to be used if not made with authority

(1) The operator or pilot in command of an aircraft must not use weather reports of actual or forecasted meteorological conditions in the planning, conduct and control of a flight if the meteorological observations, forecasts or reports were not made with the authority of:

(a) the Director of Meteorology; or

(b) a person approved for the purpose by CASA.

Penalty: 5 penalty units.

(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.

Note: For strict liability , see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .

[Dick Smith]

Arm out the window

You appear to be complaining about my provocative headline which states, “Weather CAMS – CASA has no interest?”

You talk about “spin,” well yes, my headline was to try and influence people into making a change.

Here’s the letter I originally sent on Wednesday 10th March 2011

http://rosiereunion.com/file/DS10MARCH2011.jpg

Some 2 years later, I chased my letter as I’d received no answer and then I received the following from John McCormick – note this was dated 20th May 2013, that is over 2 years since my original letter.

http://rosiereunion.com/file/CASA20MAY2013.jpg

As you can see, it’s a typical copout so CASA does not have to be involved, even though I understood the whole reason of being was to enhance aviation safety in Australia.

Gerry111

You state as a criticism of me, “For they cannot see that he is forever furthering his own agenda.”

Yes, that’s absolutely true, my agenda is to try and improve safety and participation levels in Australian Aviation – especially General Aviation.

This seems to worry you that I put my name to these things in a public way.

It looks to me as if you have a chip on your shoulder and it’s interesting how you make your claims anonymously.

Why not give me a ring and have a discussion? We may be able to get together and bring in some changes which can improve the situation here in Australia.

[Arm out the window]

Thanks for the elaboration, Dick.

McCormick's reply was very non-committal, which is disappointing, but it appears he was a shifty bastard so it's not surprising. I believe Mark Skidmore is much more trustworthy, although whether he and the organisation would act on your useful suggestion is another thing.

Yes, I do have objections to your style of spin, as I believe I've said previously somewhere here. I personally respond far better to honest exposition and argument than hyped up sensationalist type stuff, but I guess it gets you maximum bang per written word with a lot of people so good luck to you.

[rjtjrt]

Weather cams are an excellent suggestion to enhance aviation safety.
It also would have a very high bang for your buck ratio.
Hopefully CASA/Airservices can't take a simple thing and complicate it/make it needlesly bureaucratically more complicated and expensive than it need be.
This could be a way for CASA/Airservices to show they are changed and more responsive organisations.

[Sunfish]

AOTW, McCormick signed the letter, he is unlikely to be its author or responsible for its content. while McCormick may be shifty, the answer to Dicks letter was created in the bowels of CASA.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

At one of those CASA briefings at JT some time ago, it was made VERY clear by the 'briefing' officer, Miss T Miller, representing CASA, that the ONLY 'approved' source for pilots obtaining weather info, is from Airservices. Period.

This is despite the fact that many area forecasts have (had) the local Met Bureau Tel number on the text and the instructions to ring for an elaboration / explanation.

I did notice, not so long ago, that during a planned NAIPS outage of several hours, the NOTAM specifically instructed pilots to obtain MET briefings from the BOM website.

[Arm out the window]

the answer to Dicks letter was created in the bowels of CASA.

That's no doubt true, although I'd like to think anything that came out under someone's signature would at least have been perused by that someone.

Further on Dick's point, though, rather than being 'Weather Cams - CASA has no interest?', with its tricky and suggestive little question mark, it would be more accurate and honest to say 'I suggested Weather Cams to CASA and they said they'd keep an eye on developments in the area' ...

Not much of a headline though!

[Dick Smith]

Come on. There is nothing tricky about the question mark.

The heading is to attract people to read my post and then start discussing this important safety issue.

One day I will prepare a list of the successful changes I have been involved in. Then again I will be accused of bragging. And yes. I was responsible for removing the incredibly expensive RFFS from the secondary airports. Saving our GA industry over $100 m since then.

Not to mention the removal of the unique mandatory full position reporting for all VFR that flew more than 50nm or above 5000'. Close to $1 billion of complete waste saved since then without one attributable extra fatality.

[Possum1]

You pilots outside the SEQ area e.g. Victoria might have to start a website and pay for this yourselves or see Ben Quinn at the Australian Weathercam Network.

Up until mid 2014, this website was mostly privately funded and run by him when he could get away from his day job. By then the site was in some disrepair with many cameras not working.

In August 2014, he started a fundraising drive with Kickstarter for $10,000 by advertising on his website and using local contacts like myself. By October 2014, such was the popularity of this site, he had his $10,000 including my small contribution.

The result was many new HD camera sites and the repair of the old ones. Nearly 18 months later, the site has many faulty cameras again and I fear Ben will need another $10,000 again soon.

Why not do something about this today and contact him via the email link on his website at probably one of the most valuable flight planning tools for SEQ flyers, the view of Cunningham's Gap from the small town of Kalbar near Boonah: Australian Weathercam Network - Kalbar (Boonah) Webcam (http://www.weathercamnetwork.com.au/kalbar.html)

[no_one]

I wonder what CASA would do if the Australian weather Cam Network applied for CASA sponsorship via the "Safety Promotion Sponsorship Program"

https://www.casa.gov.au/about-casa/standard-page/safety-promotion-sponsorship-program-1

[Lead Balloon]

Lead Balloon,

Your first paragraph is contradicted by the regulations a pilot must only use approved sources and no others. Its ridiculous and is a classic of example of where the rules lead to less safe outcomes.

I agree with what you say, ringing a friend to ask about the clouds at your destination is a prudent thing to do however the regulations specifically prohibit it.How quaintly but typically Australian CAR 120 is.

I'm confident CAR 120 is honoured more in the breach than the observance. :ok:

[Possum1]

Re: Safety Promotion Sponsorship Program

A nice idea no one. It seems that this is all about promoting themselves with complete and absolute control and nothing to do with something as mundane as actual flying.

Another scenario could be this:

CASA wants branding and signage. All these cameras go offline occasionally, even the reliable ones. Would they want displayed a blank picture frame or an out-of-date image with a caption like, "This camera provided and the image proudly brought to you by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority?"

[Arm out the window]

Come on. There is nothing tricky about the question mark.


There certainly is, combined with the wording.

'CASA has no interest?' suggests they don't. 'CASA - are they interested?' would be neutral and more honest. Anyway, that's nit picky points.

[Lead Balloon]

P1: In no circumstances would the cameras be provided by CASA. CASA doesn't 'do' aviation infrastructure.

CASA's only involvement would be to consider whether to recommend amendments to the regulations so as to allow pilots to take into consideration information sourced from webcams (which practice is presently a heinously dangerous and criminal sin apparently). Who installs and maintains the webcams is a secondary question.

[le Pingouin]

Lead Balloon,

I agree with what you say, ringing a friend to ask about the clouds at your destination is a prudent thing to do however the regulations specifically prohibit it.

(1) The operator or pilot in command of an aircraft must not use weather reports of actual or forecasted meteorological conditions in the planning, conduct and control of a flight if the meteorological observations, forecasts or reports were not made with the authority of:



That just means you have to plan according to official sources. It doesn't mean you can't expect or observe different. You plan to be unable to land but personally observe you can.

[Arm out the window]

I will also venture the perhaps controversial opinion that you're not prohibited from looking at webcams or getting your mate to look out the window when thinking about your upcoming flight, you're just not allowed to make operational decisions based on non-approved sources.

However, as long as you do have all the appropriate forecasts that say you can go (with alternate if needed) then other unofficial sources are a bonus.

Also, a look at a webcam is a (non-approved) observation, and as we know obs and forecasts are very different things. I bet, though, if the bom had access to handy webcams in clag-prone areas they'd use them to help with the forecasting, so maybe it could be a goer. That would also bypass the 'approved observer / source' problem.

Otherwise, they'd be no different to the rain radar pictures they put up now, bloody handy but not to be used in lieu of 'proper' forecasts.

[no_one]

I won't defend the rule, its ridiculous and if I were the casa dictator for a day it would be one of the first things that gets the red pen through it to strike it out. How crazy is it to have a rule that reduces safety.

But the wording of the rule is pretty clear, you can't legally make use of unapproved sources of information for the planning or "conduct" of the flight. It would have to be a miserable CASA inspector who pinged you for it but unfortunately there appears to be a few of those.

[Lead Balloon]

I think your interpretation is correct. The Reg refers to "planning, conduct and control" of a flight, not just planning.

It is a stupid rule, to the extent that it prohibits the taking into consideration of unapproved sources of weather information. It is stupid if for no other reason than that those other sources of information are frequently taken into consideration. Or maybe the pilots that do so are dangerous criminals. :rolleyes:

[le Pingouin]

You plan according to the forecast. You conduct the flight according to the VFR and remain in VMC according to your own observations. At no time have you used the unofficial "observation" other than as an indication that it may be suitable.

[le Pingouin]

C'mon, IFR aircraft do this all the time. The forecast says the forecast is below the minima but the local agent says the base is above a particular feature which indicates you'll get in off an instrument approach. You plan a suitable alternate or holding fuel according to the forecast. You arrive, shoot an approach and land or not depending on the conditions you encounter at the time.

What if the local agent says "it's way too low" and you decide not to go? You've based an operational decision on an unofficial source, but haven't planned, conducted or controlled a flight using that information.

[Lead Balloon]

Not completely accurate. And what if the scenario is the other way around?

I frequently make decisions on the commencement and continuation of a flight taking into consideration information about weather obtained from unapproved sources. That's because weather information obtained from approved sources is often demonstrably wrong, and I consider it to be my duty to make decisions on the basis of as much information from as many sources as are available.

CAR 120 appears to prohibit me from doing so.

If someone wants to ping me on the basis of a decision I made to continue a flight because I called a mate who told me that the tower on Mount Dangerous was visible from his position, and that turned out to be true, and the flight was conducted in accordance with the VFR or IFR as applicable, the arseclown that wants to ping me can do his worst as far as I'm concerned.

[airtags]

The use of any additional information is an absolute bonus - especially if it is live and quickly accessible in real time. for example a camera looking across YBUD yesterday would have been very useful as the cloud base was lower and dynamic.

These kind of high res cameras are quite inexpensive to set up and stream and they are reliable. A small Sydney firm captivaction.com] has dozens of them around country. In Melbourne there's one atop the Westgate Bridge operated by the port authority that used to be public - it was especially useful for the annual Melbourne fog festival or those times when sitting at YMMB you can't get any reliable info on the conditions.

These cameras stream HD in a compressed algorithm that means even with the weakest 3G/4G signal you can get crisp detail pics - what's more you can also pan tilt and zoom the camera in real time. I'm not selling them but the idea of cameras in key locations makes sense.

Could not care less about egos, I'm interested only in innovation that adds safety.

AT

[Dick Smith]

The FAA has no equivalent prescriptive regulation. It was written to support the Unions.

It was going to be corrected 15 years ago.

Don't hold your breadth. What changes have been made that lower costs to G A over the first year of Mr Skidmores reign?

[Ixixly]

Dick, out of interest have you contacted the BoM to see what they're take on this is?

Surely a large organisation like themselves could see numerous benefits in these cameras and use their position to get CASA to fund it under some "Safety Scheme". It seems like this would result in pats all around from the BoM providing increased services, CASA getting to put their name to it and proudly attach their name to it and the Aviation Community amongst others gaining a new and undoubtedly valuable piece of infrastructure to use. There are many examples of these systems currently in use including the FAA and Alaska systems already mentioned so it would hardly require any real innovation, just the selection of a suitable system and someone to look after them at the very least put them where they already have Automated Weather Stations as an upgrade.

As everyone has mentioned these types of cameras can provide the type of services that FS and other ground based agents (And friends) used to and in some places still do provide and I have no doubt the majority of Pilots can tell you of at least 1 time if not many more when observations provided to them from someone elses Mk1 Eyeball has saved them a lot of time and hassle.

[CRCinAU]

You know, there is a real gap in weather coverage out to the west of Melbourne... If you head from EN to Colac and out that direction, you head into a blindspot for the BoM.

I've been on trips before that are CAVOK at either end, but had moments of wondering if I should turn around in the middle lest I find CumuloGranite.

On discussion with the BoM guys after that, I find there's no real reporting stations between (from memory) Avalon and Warrnambool.

[Flying Ted]

Late to party, sorry.

As to Dick's original question and a look at FAA site the case for this cost effective enhancement to safety would seem to be straight forward. The technology today makes it low cost and it wouldn't be difficult to assess locations where a weather observation would be a useful aid.

Two thoughts to add to the debate.

1. CAR 120. The negative expression of this requirement is astounding. But as far as this topic is concerned CCTV doesn't provide a weather report but allows the pilot to make an observation of the weather. (I'm not a lawyer so I might be shot down here.)

2. More importantly as a private pilot I have my own personal minimas. I can read a forecast for Kilmore gap and forecast indicates its just VFR what do I do? Often I'll cancel the trip or, sometimes, go and have a look to see if I'm comfortable flying through. Much cheaper to look on the web.

[Sunfish]

CRC:

You know, there is a real gap in weather coverage out to the west of Melbourne... If you head from EN to Colac and out that direction, you head into a blindspot for the BoM.

I've been on trips before that are CAVOK at either end, but had moments of wondering if I should turn around in the middle lest I find CumuloGranite.

On discussion with the BoM guys after that, I find there's no real reporting stations between (from memory) Avalon and Warrnambool.


Maybe there wouldn't have been todays fatal off Barwon Heads?

[cattletruck]

Possum1's post has shown that these things are easy to set up but a right royal PITA to maintain at a level that is persistently useful.

This is effectively a "communications data network" and when an expectation is created that it should be reliable and used for critical functions then it needs engineers to maintain its safe upkeep, this means it will cost significant money to run - there is no free lunch - someone has to pay for that level of service.

Having said that, I hear on the grapevine that there are to be some private trials by Airservices on this very matter.

Many years ago I sent the BoM a photoshop presentation of a proposed weather reporting social network I envisaged called GoVisual. The premise was it used uploaded photos of the skies by subscribers such as pilots, airports and even the general public which was shared around to allow pilots to plan their routes in near real-time. The BoM must have laughed out loud as it turns out this is well outside their brief.

[Lead Balloon]

[T]o add to the debate.

1. CAR 120. The negative expression of this requirement is astounding. But as far as this topic is concerned CCTV doesn't provide a weather report but allows the pilot to make an observation of the weather. (I'm not a lawyer so I might be shot down here.)That's an interesting point, because it highlights what an ambiguous POS CAR 120 is:(1) The operator or pilot in command of an aircraft must not use weather reports of actual or forecasted meteorological conditions in the planning, conduct and control of a flight if ...(bold added)

There is no such thing as a "report" of "forecasted" conditions. A report is a report ... of actual conditions. A forecast is ... a forecast.

As Dick observed, it's just a remnant of industrial relations struggles.

[CRCinAU]

Maybe there wouldn't have been todays fatal off Barwon Heads?

I think you'd have to draw a long bow to make the connection - but it certainly won't help the situation. I think it's far too premature to try and imply a cause on todays crash.

That being said, as far as general weather information goes, it'd sure be nice to have SOME information around this area.

[Sunfish]

CAR120 cannot stop the use of unofficial information in planning NOT to fly.

[Eyrie]

A weather radar at Broken Hill would be nice. There is a fair bit of RPT and Flying Doctor traffic. Current weather radar coverage from Mildura and Adelaide is limited.

The local Federal Member is Sussan Ley, a private pilot.

Maybe she could use her influence to get the BoM to fund another few radars instead of spending it on the human caused climate change delusion. (yes the climate always changes and it has only been 15000 years or so since Chicago was covered by a kilometer or more of solid ice - which may still be a good idea - and the ice will be back soon enough)

As for the nit pickers here,(I'm looking at you AOTW) when you come close to achieving what Dick has you'll actually be entitled to nit pick. You could try adding something useful to the discussion also.

As for information for flight planning, I use the BoM hi res satellite pictures, the public weather forecasts, look at the synoptic charts, check the winds etc on www.windyty.com then get a complete weather and Notam brief via Airservices. So far I haven't used weather cams at various places but that is a good idea. I have also been known to phone a friend at the destination.

[Lead Balloon]

I don't see at as nitpicking to point out that Dick's methods are often unproductive and, in some cases, counterproductive.

So Dick thinks CASA's completely hopeless at bringing about any substantial improvements in the regulatory regime. Well ... durr. We got that 3 decades ago, and on pprune he's pretty much preaching to the converted on that point.

But in this particular case he seems to be labouring under two misconceptions:

1. That CASA is preventing people from setting up webcams at aerodromes, and
2. That CASA could choose to set up those webcams itself.

If that's what he thinks, he's wrong on both counts. CAR 120 doesn't prevent anyone from setting up webcams anywhere they like. And CASA doesn't 'do' infrastructure.

What, then, is to be achieved by writing to CASA about the subject then bagging CASA for not doing something it cannot do?

[Arm out the window]

Eyrie, if you read back over my comments I think you'll see I contributed a bit of useful comment to the discussion.

Also if you'd read thoroughly before posting, you'd have seen I said this about Dick,

Good luck to him in the end, and he's done a hell of a lot that I and many of us would never be able to replicate.

He annoys me with the way he comes out with provocative statements in a kind of spin doctor style, but I admit he gets results.

[Dick Smith]

Possibly instead of advertising for staff at $150 k per year they could have one less staff member and fund 20 or more cameras.

I know what is more likely to reduce Aviation fatalities!

Or instead of those around Australia safety talks sometimes only attended by a small number of pilots they could allocate some of the money for cameras !

It's called lateral thinking and spending the finite and limited money where it's most likely to be effective!

[Eyrie]

Lead balloon, you need to revisit Dick's post that started this thread.
If CASA can't install the cameras then let's just outsource the running of Australian aviation regulation to the FAA.

[Lead Balloon]

I've re-read Dick's opening post. The first sentence says:I wrote to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority a while back suggesting they fund – it wouldn’t cost too much, weather CAMS at places like Kilmore Gap, Mittagong, Mount Victoria and other places where safety could be improved.I interpreted that sentence to mean that:

1. Dick "wrote to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority", and
2. the letter "suggest[ed] [CASA] fund ... weather CAMS...".

I'm merely trying to help by pointing out that CASA does not have power to spend its money for that purpose. But I could be wrong about that.

The FAA is a combined ANSP and safety regulator. In Australia, the combined ANSP and safety regulator was split into the ANSP (Airservices Australia) and the safety regulator (CASA) in 1995. Airservices Australia and CASA are entirely separate corporate entities with very different powers and functions.

But I could be wrong about that as well.

Would there be any harm in Dick putting his proposal to Airservices Australia? Or to BOM? You know: the entities whose job it is to provide aviation weather services.

[Dick Smith]

I allow CASA 5 years to do something positive re my letter.

After 5 years of doing zero I get attacked for writing a provocative headline.

Poor CASA. Mustn't upset them in any way

[Lead Balloon]

You're not being attacked, Dick. I think webcams at aerodromes are a great idea.

You're merely being told that you wrote to the wrong agency. But as we well know: You won't be told.

I reckon you should write to CASA and suggest that CASA fund IFR ratings for everyone. Think of the lives of those who would otherwise be scud-running you'd be saving. I'll take a punt and predict that CASA won't take up that suggestion either.

[Dick Smith]

The FAA doesn't fund IFR ratings .

CASA funds to the tune of millions of dollars safety talks around Australia that are attended by a minute percentage of pilots. Why not move some of that money to something more useful. Or spend the money saved by having all board meetings in Canberra

[Lead Balloon]

The money CASA spends on safety promotion activities is chicken feed compared to the hundreds of millions wasted on the regulatory 'reform' bugger's muddle. In fact, that wasted money could have funded IFR ratings for each and every Australian pilots licence holder. But none of that means CASA has the choice of diverting any of that money to setting up and maintaining webcams at aerodromes (or paying for pilots' IFR ratings). Maintaining webcams at aerodromes is not CASA's function.

Another fact that you'll never accept, no matter how many times you're told it, is that money 'saved' in one area of aviation is NOT then 'spent' in another area of aviation. If, for example, a government were to shut down the regulatory reform bugger's muddle, the millions saved would NOT be spent in some other area of aviation. It would be spent wherever it was politically expedient to spend it, or not spent on anything else at all. And there would be ZERO reduction in the costs of interacting with the regulator and operating aircraft, and ZERO impact on safety.

[peterc005]

Some people say in one sentence "the government should do something about that ...".

In the next sentence they complain about the "nanny state".

Rather than rely on the government, why don't airfield operators, flying clubs and flying schools just gut web cams with cellular access, install the equipment on airports and plug it into the existing cam network?

Probably cost $500 a unit, no need to wait for the government.

[cattletruck]

Here, 'av a larf on me.

The link below contains a PowerPoint presentation of the GoVisual system I envisaged almost 10 years ago (2008) that used webcams and more.

Unfortunately the animations don't seem to work in anything other than MicroSoft PowerPoint, which is typical of something created using an old technology...but you get the drift.

GoVisual MS-PowerPoint file (271Kb) (http://arthurguru.users.sourceforge.net/extra/govisual.ppsx)

[djpil]

Exactly Peter. RVAC's webcam at Moorabbin Airport worked very well for a number of years. It faced north or north-east.
I also found webcams very useful some years ago when living in the USA and flying around the Rocky Mountains.

[rjtjrt]

I suggested Lilydale have a weather webcam pointing to the north east and north west. I was told they weren't interested. Not sure why, but it would be an ideal place to cover one (2 really) of the ways through the divide from Melbourne.
Kilmore gap webcam ewoild be helpful, and no flying school or club near, so webcam at flying schools/clubs wouod be of great help, but a few others are needed.That is where gov shouod come in.

[no_one]

Cattletruck,

That is an awesome Idea!!!! With a mobile phone and data plane it would be very easy for any pilot (or ground based person) with an app to upload a "PIREP" to be automatically be disseminated. Imagine if there was also a slick way of integrating the "official" met data so that you could get quick, easy to interpret information while in the air.

[cattletruck]

Thanks no_one :ok:,

To be really useful though one would need a camera facing each end of each runway, or a 360 view. How many times have we seen blue sky along one cardinal and approaching storms on its reciprocal. We certainly wouldn't want to mislead pilots, and to augment the photo with Bureau of Meteorology radar images would be very helpful, but even those radars have limitations that are not publicly advertised.

Unfortunately all that "guaranteeing" just seems to drive up the cost of what essentially started off as a simple idea.

I still reckon we'll get the tech fully sorted eventually, as long as we keep pushing for a better way.

[Jetjr]

Guy in NZ developed cheap camera wx station
Uses 2-4 webcams, takes a still pic every 15 min, sends to website
Cheap weather station, take info for what its worth but cameras are good resource
Needs some power and mobile sim, all up cost around $300. A few private in AU
Could do camera alone for less

[peterc005]

Here is an inexpensive, flexible and powerful solution for creating local weather stations that can be networked into Australian Weathercam Network (http://www.weathercamnetwork.com.au/) or something similar:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/weather-security-temperature-cam/

No need for CASA, Airservices or any bureaucracy, just spend a couple of hundred bucks and connect it up.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

but a few others are needed.That is where gov shoud come in.
None of them are needed but many are desired. There's a big difference, especially when you are asking someone else to pay for it.

[rjtjrt]

Given the closer than some expected election polls, is it now an opportune time to approach the political parties to see if they can consider their possible taking up of this fairly inexpensive but valuable tool?

[Dick Smith]

I agree. But there seems to be no aviation policy at all. Thus would be a great low cost safety improver.

Why doesn't the Ministers aviation advisor suggest some of these things?

[peterc005]

There are people here who will complain about the "nanny state" in one sentence and then say "the government should do something about this ..." in the next sentence.

Web cams and internet access are cheap - stop whinging and just buy some yourselves.

[rjtjrt]

Thanks Pete, you just made the point for the suggestion that Gov buy some. Good of you to inadvertently make a positive contribution to PPRUNE.
Yes, they are cheap, and would be a very cost effective safety investment for government to make.

[peterc005]

Why is the government responsible for solving every little problem?

If CASA or Airservices did this it would take years, involve studies, RFPs, staff, budgets and bureaucracy. By the time it was implemented I'd bet the technology would be outdated anyway.

If you are not happy with local weather reporting just spend a couple of hundred dollars at your local airport and fix it yourself.

[Squawk7700]

rjtjrt - PeterC doesn't even look at the wind sock when goes flying, so I can understand that he doesn't think a weather camera would be of any value.

[rjtjrt]

Peter
You don't have a clue.
I don't need it for my local airport, but I would value it for the areas Dick mentioned in the OP ("weather CAMS at places like Kilmore Gap, Mittagong, Mount Victoria and other places where safety could be improved").

[peterc005]

Once again, the government should not be responsible for every whim and wish. Let the government concentrate on things like defense, roads, education etc.

This problem (weather cams) could best and easily be resolved by the relevant community (aviators). The infrastructure (internet network of weather cams) is already in place.

You obviously think strongly about it, why don't you contribute directly to pay for it?

[rjtjrt]

Peter.
I already have and do. It's called taxes.

[Arrrj]

I am aways surprised that you miss the point about Dick's comments. As a businessman (and leader) his job is a) to get you to think about new ideas and b) to TEST and get you to prove why his ideas are wrong.

In this case it is hard to argue against what he says. Why not get CASA (the only body we answer to) to assemble a list of all the cameras (there are hundreds) and / or fill in the gaps and install a few. Sure, it might not be their role now, but things change. For example, CASA used to be quite ok, now they are not !

I fly helis, and always check the cameras that I know of out of Sydney (in addition to the other sources) like Scenic World and Bathurst Flying School, if I am flying west...it makes sense and you would be stupid not to. The aviation weather is not always right...but a picture tells a thousand words.

Cheers,
Arrrj

[Dick Smith]

CASA has a budget to travel around Australia and talk to a tiny percentage of pilots.

This is to help improve safety.

Why not spend a bit of this on a proper formal camera network. May save more lives.

[Jenna Talia]

Had a guy from BOM in the jump seat today. Said that BOM intend installing cams at every airport where a TAF is issued. He did not mention when this will start, only that it will happen.

[Capn Bloggs]

CASA has a budget to travel around Australia and talk to a tiny percentage of pilots.

Typical. Here's the hated, despised regulator getting out and about and you're ripping in to them!

Had a guy from BOM in the jump seat today.
Glad he didn't have one...

[Lead Balloon]

I don't think "the hated, despised regulator" is accurate.

"Expensive joke" might be more accurate.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Online Camera access good idea. Better idea, urge BOM that a wxrad installed around Cobar would fill a very obvious hole in coverage between the Gundi and Mildura radars.

[underfire]

I dont see pilots being allowed to access or use any of the cameras mounted on the aircraft, so how would they use cameras located around an airport?
Given the randomness and internet access around AUS, how reliable would the cams be anyways. When there is an outage, who is responsible? As soon as they put them up, they are responsible for them.

For winds, aircraft around the world use an anemometer at 10m, that is it. So, I cannot see a pilot using weather cams in flight planning, even the meteos who stare at this stuff 24/7 get it wrong...

[Ixixly]

underfire, these sorts of webcams (Actually IP Cameras are what we're talking about in this scenario, but I'll just be using the term Webcam here) are actually very low bandwidth, generally updating only every few seconds and don't need to be high quality either, heck, having them update once every 15-30 seconds is more than adequate, the size of the image only needs to be about 150-200kb so uploading one of those every 15-30seconds requires a very tiny amount of bandwidth. Generally costing between $100 to $200 for an all inclusive IP Camera that is ready to be hooked up to a network, looked after by whomever looks after the Airport but they don't require a lot of maintenance, generally the most required is a reboot once in a while and replacement is of course relatively cheap, just need to replace the actual unit.

You can also buy some pretty good set ups for more like $1700 but these are fully controllable (Pan, Tilt, Zoom), have Wifi and 3g built in along with a Solar Panel and Internal Battery to run it as well. Of course these would be idea as they'd require very little effort to get up and running in terms of on-site installation.

Some quick numbers, say you take an image every 30 seconds, about 150kb each, running from Sunrise to Sunset that would amount to usage of about 230mb a day or about 7gb a month, which is not a great deal so cost of Bandwidth per year would be very limited, perhaps $40-50 a month?

I lived in Vanuatu for a few years and they had some great webcams setup on a hill over looking Port Vila which were absolutely brilliant (Sometimes even essential) to get an idea of what the weather is actually doing and I know a great deal of GA Pilots would use them around Australia if given the ability, especially with access to them inflight through various devices readily available now.

I also don't see what you're point is about Pilots not being allowed to acces or use cameras mounted on Aircraft? What exactly are you talking about with this point?

[cattletruck]

Said that BOM intend installing cams at every airport where a TAF is issued. He did not mention when this will start, only that it will happen.

The BoM already have a fair few cams out there and it makes sense they stick 'em in airports as they are one of their biggest customers. Augmenting forecasts with Visual Weather information is a natural progression. No doubt like their existing cams these would also need to be of hi-res to be of any meaningful use to their meteorologists.

:ok:

[clunckdriver]

Around here, at the top of the world with a tough climate and "land of ice and snow", as the song says, the airport based cameras are a life saver given the difficult forecasting conditions and remote locations with few, if any, weather observations. All we need is some system to dig them out from under snow drifts!

[Sunfish]

give CASA some slack. The problem for CASA is that once they agree to do this, then the cameras become an official, even if purely advisory, device. That means they have to be attended to, budgeted for and managed across the nation because people will become used to using them and will scream blue murder if they are then unserviceable. You are in effect adding a non voluntary function to government.

to put that another way, it's all right if joe blow sticks a camera on a pole and publishes the URL, nobody cares if it breaks, CASA is not joe blow. once they do it, they are responsible for it.

[rjtjrt]

That means they have to be attended to, budgeted for and managed across the nation

Oh well, if it is all too hard to do your job, then we should allow the poor folk at CASA to have a rest.
For heavens sake, that can't be an excuse, that it is too hard for them as it gets complicated.

[Squawk7700]

One of the issues is around consumer grade versus commercial grade equipment. We might just buy a camera from Jaycar or the Internet, put it inside a window and point it out. CASA, to do it properly would need to find a suitable 24x7 all weather unit, one with 3G/4G capability, weather-proof it, mount it on a pole, determine best direction, arrange a contractor to mount pole, arrange a suitable location on the realestate, power the unit be it solar or otherwise, then maintain it by cleaning the glass, updating the firmware, etc etc. Then there's the contract for the 3G/4G connection. If you ran up a tender for say 80-100 of these, it would be a fairly significant spend for installation and maintenance.

Absolutely we would love to have these available but also need to understand the cost implications and that these things take time once initiated and I don't think we are even at that point yet.

[Ixixly]

Squawk7700, as I posted before, it's not terribly expensive, you can buy ready to go units that are weather proof, have tilt/rotate control so they can be aimed in multiple directions, solar powered, 3G and wifi built in for about $1700, if you consider that each site should really have a back up that would be equipment at $3400 each. Worked it out at about 7gb of Data a month required, so say a $50 Plan, another $600 a year and allow for at least 5 years of operation, so another $3000, add no more than $600 for sundry installation costs (It's a Pole in some cement, not exactly rocket science) which seems fair considering some sites will be very straight forward and others will require a little more work and you're looking at about $7000 for each site.

It shouldn't be too difficult to get someone to pony up a million dollars for a project like this (Hell, in my local area they just built a 75m bike over pass for $10 million just so they could avoid waiting at a set of traffic lights!!), this would allow for about 100-140 sites to be fully funded depending on some admin costs. Doesn't seem terribly unreasonable to me.

I was recently out in WA, weather forecast when I got up was showing CAVOK for the day, "Great!" I thought, let's go get some work done.... ooops, someone didn't forecast the heavy fog that had settled in and lasted for about 2-3hrs, a weather cam could have saved a few people a lot of hassle that day.

Heck, CASA have spent how much money on a fancy website in the last few years? Least they could do is actually make it useful and have someone post up some links to Webcams that could help us all.

[Squawk7700]

Those costs are more realistic and not the fanciful $60 webcam comments suggested. Add a feasibility study, project management, RFQ's, tenders and it might blow out a bit :-)

[Sunfish]

.....and don't forget the indemnity and insurance. It's not a trivial exercise once it's public money you are spending, there is always the possibility that the auditor general may take a look, all the paperwork has to be there, you can't just wander down to JB hifi, there are protocols to be followed. squawk is right, it's not a trivial exercise

[rjtjrt]

If AWIS can be implemented, with adequate attention to the various requirements of gov implementing an aviation weather tool used by pilots, then surely Weather Webcams can be as well.
It seems to me to be the difference between looking for reasons not to do something vs looking for ways to achieve something.

[Awol57]

AWIS is usually owned and maintained by the airport in most cases. I highly doubt CASA have anything to do with a single AWIS

[rjtjrt]

I wasn't aware of that.
What about the non aerodrome AWIS such as at Moss Vale, Kilmore Gap, etc?

[Awol57]

Not sure. Possibly BoM? I am on the wrong side of the country to know definitively, sorry.

[Squawk7700]

Kyneton in Victoria.

Something like this setup would be nice in a lot more places:

http://yktn.avmet.nz

[Jetjr]

Kyneton in Victoria.

Something like this setup would be nice in a lot more places:

http://yktn.avmet.nz

Cameras go to sleep after dark, take a new shot every 15 min
Take weather data for what it is.......a cheaper weather station

[airtags]

Agree Squawk - Kyneton & a host of others

Just dropped this on the Dick Smith Hanger wake thread - worth a look


RE: the Weathercams they have merit - suggest local company Captiveye (captivaction.com) is worth having a chat to regarding a trial - their product is better than the Transport Canada camera system and offers a range of features that would greatly benefit GA. (& they are less expensive)[/I]

AT

[Dick Smith]

Airtags. Don't appear to have the features of the Transport Canada site. Can you contact me if you have a background on this equipment.

[Dick Smith]

I think you only need a photo scan every 10 minutes so data can be quite low.

[rjtjrt]

If I may suggest, I don't think a camera that can be moved or zoomed by users is at all the way to go.
My experience is someone is using it to look for their girlfriend on the airport and it is not showing weather at all, and they have control for a few minutes. Meanwhile there can be a queue of internet users waiting to gain control, so it can be a long time before pilot able to get weather info.
Need something we can access in flight using internet on tablet (eg Ozrunways or Avplan) to look at weather in near real time.
Need fixed camera's.
Simple is best.

[Squawk7700]

The link to the setup I posted above would be more than adequate for most scenarios. Agreed, tilt and pan is not required especially when there are multiple cameras in different direction.

http://yktn.avmet.nz

[MetGirl]

MetService in NZ has installed web cams at most of the airports we write TAFs for. Not all are made available on MetFlight though (not sure why). They are a great supplement to auto METARs, but the user does need to be aware of the limitations.
At night, they switch to infra-red.
At some airports (mostly the internationals) there are several cameras pointing in different directions.

[rjtjrt]

Just seen Dick Smith has reportedly included a donation from his recent sale of his CJ3.
Taken from report on by Ben Sandilands (not sure if I am allowed to put url of his web blog site here).

"He has today made out a cheque for $160,000 to AirServices Australia in the hope, he says that they will copy the Nav Canada system and provide the weather cams at their existing ground installations around Australia, as this could obviously be done at the lowest cost."

[Vag277]

Just seen Dick Smith has reportedly included a donation from his recent sale of his CJ3.
Taken from report on by Ben Sandilands (not sure if I am allowed to put url of his web blog site here).

"He has today made out a cheque for $160,000 to AirServices Australia in the hope, he says that they will copy the Nav Canada system and provide the weather cams at their existing ground installations around Australia, as this could obviously be done at the lowest cost."

So who is going to pay for maintenance and replacement? VFR.

[CaptainMidnight]

at their existing ground installations around AustraliaOdd, given almost all of the Airservices ground installations are either out in the middle of nowhere or on mountain/hill tops so cameras would not be a lot of use, unless it is meant navaid sites at or in the vicinity of ADs, which would also be problematic for a variety of reasons. $160k wouldn't go far.

Such facilities are better put in by AD OPRs, aeroclubs etc. and leave government authorities out of it.

[Dick Smith]

Nav Canada provides a great setup,
AsA has places like Mt Boyce and Kings tableland with power , buildings and links.
I just thought that AsA may be interested in doing something practical to improve safety in the industry,
Time will tell!
Maintenance cost would be next to nothing .

[rjtjrt]

Airservices have made a start on weather webcams.

Live Weather Cameras | Airservices (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/WeatherCam/)

[Dick Smith]

It's a start. Needs to have a time stamp I think.

Also need more like Kilmore Gap .

I was hoping to assist the safety of en route VFR as well as IFR at airports!

[catseye]

Dick, click on the image, DTG is on the top right corner. :ok:

Steerable at Mt Boyce would be good instead of using the steerable at Scenic Skyway.

[Shagpile]

It's a start. Needs to have a time stamp I think.

Also need more like Kilmore Gap .

I was hoping to assist the safety of en route VFR as well as IFR at airports!

Timestamp is top right (in UTC).
Kilmore Gap is in the list.

[Lead Balloon]

I think Dick meant more sited at places similar to Kilmore Gap (where there is already one). E.g. Bowral/Mittagong, Mount Victoria (near Katoomba).

[Ixixly]

This is a great start!! Does anyone know where else they plan to roll this out to?

[CaptainMidnight]

Obviously Airservices will only be putting them in where they already have a comms facility site.

To put them in at other places would have significant costs, and who pays?

[601]

To put them in at other places would have significant costs, and who pays?

With all the provisions put on the use of the images -
This webpage and its images are not provided as part of a regulated service. This webpage and its images may be useful to assist in assessing actual weather conditions at the available locations, but do not replace official forecasts or observations. This webpage or its images should not be relied upon to be available, or up to date, for the purposes of flight planning, or decision making in flight. Airservices has taken all reasonable care in producing this webpage, and republishing the supplied images, but it does not warrant they are free from error. Airservices accepts no liability arising from errors contained on this webpage or in the images provided.

An old mobile phone, or four for all round coverage, with a data only sim that sends a photo every 10 minutes.
How much?

[Shagpile]

An old mobile phone, or four for all round coverage, with a data only sim that sends a photo every 10 minutes.
How much?

These aren't crappy phones or webcams it seems. They are taking some very nice long exposure shots at night.

No idea cost but with travel, hardware and setup I wouldn't imagine there would be much change left over from 5-10k each.

[Squawk7700]

These aren't crappy phones or webcams it seems. They are taking some very nice long exposure shots at night.

No idea cost but with travel, hardware and setup I wouldn't imagine there would be much change left over from 5-10k each.

... and a project like this of this magnitude would probably cost $50-100k in project management alone, particularly if it requires the design of some physical structure.

[601]

Dammed sure this site did not cost the figures given so far in this thread.
Cleveland Weather Station - (Raby Bay) - Home (http://www.clevelandweather.net/default.php)

[Capn Bloggs]

Get what you pay for 601... it's black! :eek:

[Dick Smith]

Lots of these cameras don't seem to appear on Ozrunways. Anyone know why?

[Capn Bloggs]

Glad to see the weather's nice in Cleveland now... :ok:

[Possum1]

It would be nice if they could put some money into Ben Quinn's weathercamnetwork to fix all his broken cameras as they would fill in a lot of gaps between BOM weather station camera sites.

Around Brisbane, I sorely miss his Kalbar, Kilcoy, Redcliffe, Noosa and Point Halloran East cameras.

[triadic]

Watts Bridge (YWSG) are putting a mount up for a wx Cam and wx station at the moment. Maybe a month or so till it goes live. Thanks to Dick Smiths donation.

ASA are working on linking other sites to their network, so there maybe a few extras on line during the year.:D

[601]

Get what you pay for 601... it's black! :eek:

Not as bad as this on the Airservices Weather Cam;

500 - Internal server error.
There is a problem with the resource you are looking for, and it cannot be displayed.


On the Cleveland Weather site;
Webcam Stats

The camera used to bring you this image is a Olympus digital still camera running through VM95 software.
The image updates daily between the hours of 06:00 and 18:00 AEST every 5mins

Of course VFR pilots really want to know the weather is like at night through the Kilmore Gap.

[smiling monkey]

Of course VFR pilots really want to know the weather is like at night through the Kilmore Gap.

It's been 30 years since I last flew down the Kilmore Gap. Don't they have a METAR for there these days?

[sdielectrical]

Rylstone Airpark weather page. Has 4 cameras, weather station and BOM feeds

http://rylstoneaerodrome.com.au/yryl-weather-cam/

[Capn Bloggs]

Now just need to work out how to view them in Ozrunways for Android... ;)

(I have tapped the camera icon on the drag-out list). :ok:

[Dick Smith]

Come on ozrunways. Tell us why all the AsA cameras don't seem to appear

Let's see if we can get a camera in the Mittagong area . Personally I don't need it as I have lots of friends in the area I can phone but there must be some pilots who need the Wx and don't have any local contacts.

[sdielectrical]

Received this during the week from Ozrunways...

"
New Webcams

We have published new webcams installed at various airports. We have also modified our servers to easily add new ones.
If you are a flying club and have a still image camera that you would love everybody to see in OzRunways, please email [email protected] with the URL, Name, Lat/Lon, Direction & Update frequency."

It seems it is going to happen. I have sent all the details for the Rylstone webcams and received a reply saying its with the coders to integrate it. It seems they are just a bit busy. It will be a very good platform to view weather cams on when it happens.

Interestingly I have noticed the ones at Canberra that were installed at the weather station location at the airport are no longer available on Ozrunways. Hopefully they reappear.

Yes, we do need more scattered around the country rather than the concentration of them in the same areas.

[Shagpile]

Lots of these cameras don't seem to appear on Ozrunways. Anyone know why?

Hi Dick we were asked to remove them due to a complex set of licensing things we're trying to work through.

Update: We've talked to Dick and are working with all the relevant players to try and make this happen asap.

[DeRated]

Well, yes - I did find it - with the bifocals and a magnifying glass!

I used the 'Comments' to suggest that the 30% section of the ground was useful for watching the grass grow but could also be a good spot for the Date/Time to be blazed across - with an update interval included.

Waiting - for the grass.........

[rjtjrt]

Hi Dick we were asked to remove them due to a complex set of licensing things we're trying to work through.

Update: We've talked to Dick and are working with all the relevant players to try and make this happen asap.

I wonder if that is an Airservices licensing thing that caused the issue?

[Bevan666]

I wonder if that is an Airservices licensing thing that caused the issue?


No, it is the fact the data comes from BoM and being presented by Airservices which is the issue. A third part provider was then scraping the data from the airservices website without permission from the data originator.

[rjtjrt]

No, it is the fact the data comes from BoM and being presented by Airservices which is the issue. A third part provider was then scraping the data from the airservices website without permission from the data originator.

Ah, isn't it great to see how much better life is when lawyers get involved.
A safety initiative hamstrung by legal stupidity.

[sdielectrical]

Thank You Ozrunways.

Rylstone Airpark's weather cameras are now on the map. Looks good :ok:

[boofhead]

The Alaska cameras are essential now; I won't fly without checking them.

They are regulated by the FAA and are usually owned and maintained by them. Each site is shown on an attached map to see the coverage, they are time and date stamped, they also show a clear day image with distances and heights for obstacles and terrain features shown so you can see what is hidden by the meteo conditions and easily decide if you have good enough weather to expect a VFR arrival or to have a chance to become visual after an IFR approach. You still need official weather (AWOS etc) to be legal to shoot the approach.

The AWOS/ASOS system is also run by the FAA and meets the definition of official weather but those systems are not always working due to the tough conditions and poor reliability. There are times when critical info is not available (vis, ceiling, wind). In some cases this prevents a flight from dispatching.

There is a plan to add those items to the weather camera system, to automatically provide an official visibility for example. The cameras can replace the AWOS and save money as well as being more useful.

Imagination does not restrict progress.

[Flying Binghi]

Watts Bridge (YWSG) are putting a mount up for a wx Cam and wx station at the moment. Maybe a month or so till it goes live. Thanks to Dick Smiths donation.

ASA are working on linking other sites to their network, so there maybe a few extras on line during the year.

Talking to a National Parks chap the other day and he mentioned that they have been using the Watts camera for fire spotting. The camera has already saved parks some money and crew time. More kudos to Mr Smith..:ok:






.

[ianboag]

Just for the record. To put up a weather station with pix one approach is ....

4 webcams. You can buy fully weatherproof ones (on aliexpress) for about $US45. USB surveillance cameras. 720P = 1280x720 = 1 MP works fine for this application. All you actually want is a handle on what the sky looks like.
It is not hard to have history - weewx can do it or one can upload the stuff to Weather Underground

Have a look at nzdv.avmet.nz. The cameras get a bit grumpy about pointing directly into the sun.

say $250 for cams

I can understand a bit of scepticism re picture quality - the nzdv pix are about 90k for the four. With 20-minute updates that's 300k/hour - 15 hours makes it 5MB/day = 150 MB/month.

Raspberry Pi computer with a powered USB hub.
$75

Telstra USB modem stick.
$50

Weather station - anything from a Fine Offset (Jaycar) model at about $150 to a Davis that might cost $1000+. Given that wind tends to wander around from minute to minute you are not looking for a high precision direction or speed.

There is (free) Pi software to read these and other weather stations. I use weewx.

I cut the output way down from the weewx standard stuff - I figured if I am flying in or out, the main thing I want to know is what things are doing now and what does the sky look like. High for the month, rain yesterday etc are not really of interest in this application.

Infrastructure stuff - I use a 12V wall wart because there is power available. One could do it with solar. The Pi is a bit of an energy hog by solar standards, although the price of solar cells has fallen so much that this is probably not a problem.

You need is a pole to mount it all on and a box (up the pole) to hold the Pi, cameras, WS and modem. Could be $100-200 I guess.

Cellular data charges are diddly. Telstra have a 12-month data pass of 25GB for $150. Unfortunately that is their only 12-month plan - they used to have $50/5GB/12 months but that went away. Still not a lot though. The station uses about 200MB/month ... = 2.5GB/year

There would be room to raise the frequency or pic quality in these charges.

One can log into the system remotely for software maintenance and changes and stuff ....

So the bill of materials is change out of $1000 with a FO weather station and however much more for a flasher one.

[sdielectrical]

New network of weather cameras Skycam Network - Home (http://www.skycam.net.au)

[MagnumPI]

^^^ Three cheers to these legends, my local airfield now has one. What a great contribution to the community.

[Clinton McKenzie]

I’m intrigued and I’m sure there’ll be a technically logical explanation: Why aren’t the Airservices cameras aligned to the cardinal points of the compass? Why are they all instead aligned to the intercardinal points?

[le Pingouin]

If you're referring to the cameras on this page they point in various directions:

Live Weather Cameras | Airservices (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/WeatherCam/)

To pick several:

Launceston - 090°
Avalon - 030°
Albury - 060°

[Clinton McKenzie]

Thanks le Pinguoin

Now I’m even more intrigued.

All of the ones that I picked at random are aligned at 45/135/225/315. Yesterday evening I thought I’d nutted it out: Cameras aligned 90/270 might be ‘swamped’ by sun glare, so better to align them 45 etc.

As a consequence of your post I now see different alignments, including Launceston’s 90/180/270/360.

So now my question is: Why the differences? :confused:

[Checklist Charlie]

Can't say they are aligned with the approach paths because they are not.

CC

[djpil]

If I was setting them up at my local airfield I’d have one facing towards Mt ..... as it would indicate cloud base and visibility the best (i.e. the place I always look in doubtful weather to help decide whether to takeoff or not) .... and the opposite direction is where I often look to see the approaching weather. NE and SW would suit me just fine.

[growahead]

Clinton, it seems to me the cameras are set at 90 degrees arcs; and guesstimating the field of view of each camera is about 60 degrees, ie + or - 30 degrees from the datum.
Looking at Launceston orientation, a location I have some familiarity; it is true final approach to both 14 and 32 are not shown. However, I think the chosen orientations provide pretty good coverage if, in fact, the available combined viewing area is 240 of the 360 degrees.
For example, the 270 view covers tracks to the west, the training area, and the main inbound route from Devonport.
The 360 view gives good views of the busy VFR track through Targa Gap, and offers an indication of weather close to the approach to 14. It would also cover the valley fog that often forms in that direction.
The 090 view covers track to St Helens, over the high ground and as far south as the eastern limit of Evandale.
180 covers the track to Hobart via the Midlands, and towards Clark.
Generally speaking, all significant high ground can be observed.
Accordingly, I think, in this case, a strategic decision has been correctly made, to make the most of the available (240 or so degrees).
Just my opinion.

[sdielectrical]

I think djpil has it.

The people that know what the best view is would be the locals. Every location is different and it also depends on the available vantage points where you can setup a camera easily and not have it obscured by a structure on the ground or even very close rising terrain. It also depends on the ease of plugging into a power source and having an internet connection.

It doesn't matter on which direction. It matter on the ability of the picture to convey the conditions. The cameras have a wide field of view. The ones on the Skycam network have a 70 degree field of view.

There is other useful information you can get from these cameras that helps locals. I flew into Warnervale the other day and was able to see I would get a park on the grass no problem. It's nice to see a few planes in the pictures and this will mean something to a local. You can see if a plane has arrived back or maybe if a car is parked there. This is additional to the main purpose of course.

A good picture should have at least half the image with the sky in it, have the camera level with the horizon so it shows true on the image and also show rising terrain that can be used to judge cloud heights against. It should be labelled which direction it is of course. Having a windsock in the image is a bonus, but even better if you can have some weather data on the image.

[Squawk7700]

Just a minor update for this thread.

I recently purchased and set up a weather camera for an airfield.

The camera can be purchased here:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4G-WIFI-HD-1080P-2MP-IP-Network-Camera-SD-card-slot-Plug-and-Play-IP66-Outdoor/272964646795?epid=1362461507&hash=item3f8df5f78b:g:d2wAAOSwjyhaIifr

Camera $175 (needs 240/12 volt power, but doesn't need a wired internet connection)
Telstra 4G data only SIM card (40gb - 365 days) $150
Upload your photos to a website (Approx $10 a month or even less) including a domain name. Eg. Myairfield.com $120 p/a. Alternatively, I have one and you are welcome to use it or there are plenty of people out there who can host your photos for nix.

Photo size 145k approximately.
Photo taken every 2 minutes. Therefore 20 per hour, X 24 hours x 365 days x 145k = Approximately 38 gig per year - perfect.

Alternatively an ALDI card on Telstra for $100 will get you a photo recorded every 4-5 minutes.

Also can add an SD card to the camera to record the same photos twice as often.

Long story short, aside from the 240/12 volt power requirement, this is a stand-alone system. No weather information is included, however you could just point it towards the windsock.

Year 1 cost - $325 (includes camera) - if photos are hosted somewhere for free
Year 2 cost - $150 (data cost)
Added to OZrunways as a weather cam - FREE (thanks guys for helping with this)

Not a big investment guys and it would be great to have more weather cameras, particularly in Victoria. There's only a few thus far!!

If you're thinking about setting one up, let me know and I can give you the finer details.

[Ixixly]

I believe we had this conversation a couple of years back Squawk7700, So glad more people are giving this a go, CASA should be setting up a bloody fund to get more of these setups like yours up and running, a pitiful couple of hundred grand could have so many of these sites setup all over the damned country, it'd be amazing for everyone. Well done to you indeed.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

John Eacott (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/267120-essendon-airport-web-cam.html) used to have a really good webcam on top of his hangar at YMEN. You could swing to Mt Macedon to the NW, the escarpment toward Ballarat and east to Mt Dandenong...that is if you could get control of the camera:}

[Squawk7700]

John Eacott (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/267120-essendon-airport-web-cam.html) used to have a really good webcam on top of his hangar at YMEN. You could swing to Mt Macedon to the NW, the escarpment toward Ballarat and east to Mt Dandenong...that is if you could get control of the camera:}

Techno jargon warning:

That was my initial plan with the aforementioned setup when I realised that you can't remote control a panning / tilting capable 4G camera as when you're using a 4G data plan, (unless it's an expensive business plan) you don't get a public IP address, so you have no way to get back to the camera via your browser or phone. It probably would be cheaper to have a second camera or more, a bit like the Kilmore Gap cameras in ozrunways and elsewhere.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Squawk7700, and the cost may well be why John's camera is no longer active.

[sdielectrical]

7700,

Where is that camera located at? Can you provide a link to the image or is it on Ozrunways?

[Squawk7700]

7700,

Where is that camera located at? Can you provide a link to the image or is it on Ozrunways?

PM sent and its in ozrunways.