Airborne Nuclear Weapons incidents

[racedo]

Reading over weekend about various Nuclear Weapons accidents since the original bucket of sunshine first saw the light of day.

Was well aware of the various Submarine nuclear accidents where missiles got removed by various "interested parties" after a sinking. In a way that was easier because well away from land and generally in deep water. The out of sight out of mind viewpoint.

Also aware of various incidents in reportage of airborne losses but reading further there just seemed to be a real gap.

As far as is in public knowledge there were no losses under the V Force while carrying, also little on any French losses.

USAF losses are generally in public domain but there seems to be nothing about Nuclear losses from USSR in an airborne capacity.

Now I am not sure whether this has been because they were covered up well but even by now I would suggest we would have known about them.

The other alternate is that Soviet (now Russian) Nuclear doctrine was to try and avoid loading Nukes on aircraft. Down to possibility of crashing or because of lack of control issues or there wasn't enough trust in Pilots.

Interested in viewpoints on this.

[Danny42C]

racedo,

"The Bombs of Palomares" is a good read !

Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

V-Force - nil to answer your question.

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, and Thule.

[sitigeltfel]

Not an airborne incident, but the book Command and Control by Eric Schlosser detailing the TitanII missile disaster at Damascus is a damn good read. Technicians ignore SOPs regarding procedures, resulting in an explosion that blows the warhead out of the silo. The entire chain of command is dissected in the book in dramatic style and found to be woefully inadequate.

[BEagle]

2 serious accidents in the UK:

27 Jul 1957 at Lakenheath, when a B-47 crashed into the nuclear weapons storage area. There were 3 weapons inside, one of which was so badly damaged it was close to detonation.

28 Feb 1958 at Greenham Common, when a B-47 (Granville 20) jettisoned both external tanks which caught fire on hitting the ground, destroying a second B-47 and a hangar. The US would neither confirm nor deny that the second aircraft contained a weapon (or was being loaded at the time), but later surveys detected a radiation hotspot in the vicinity. Subsequent leukaemia cases in the area are allegedly higher than the normal average.

[Wycombe]

Subsequent leukaemia cases in the area are allegedly higher than the normal average.

I live in the area and indeed this is often talked about. I know at least one family, who have always lived around here (I haven't) who are convinced they have been impacted and refer to the "secret crash".

Of course, we're not far from AWE either.

[SpringHeeledJack]

There was one…..;)

Pictures & Photos from Thunderball (1965) - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3292707584/tt0059800?ref_=tt_ov_i)

Btw, i'm sure that i read that the Spanish site is still cordoned off and needs to be further excavated and cleaned even after all these years.

[beardy]

The weapon that was dropped in the sea off the coast of Savannah has never been recovered.

[Wageslave]

USAF losses are generally in public domain but there seems to be nothing about Nuclear losses from USSR in an airborne capacity.

Now I am not sure whether this has been because they were covered up well but even by now I would suggest we would have known about them.


I think you can be pretty (as in 100% ) certain that the USSR would never have voluntarily mentioned such events unless forced to because they occurred in internationally public view, or it suited them to do so for some reason. I certainly can't imagine how we'd have "found out" about them without being told.

Remember, they even tried to pretend Chernobyl hadn't happened - despite the plumes of unmistakable isotopes that clearly proved that it had.

I daresay there are hair-raising tales to be told from behind the Iron Curtain - lots more than from the West given Russia's less than careful approach to such things.

[Yellow Sun]

I daresay there are hair-raising tales to be told from behind the Iron Curtain - lots more than from the West given Russia's less than careful approach to such things.

Not necessarily so. Whilst there may have been incidents in the manufacturing and storage process (we had our own after all (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20121026065214/http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FreedomOfInformation/DisclosureLog/SearchDisclosureLog/NuclearWeaponIncidentInGermany.htm)) the Soviet military appear to have had an effective security and control system wrt their nuclear stores. Their philosophy appears to have been to restrict access (physical and operational) to the absolute minimum and entrust the handling and security of weapons to specially trained units. Neither have I read of any instances; other than weapons tests; when they flew with warshot weapons. I should be very interested if any one is able to refute this?

I feel that they probably approached their tasks with the same degree of commitment and professionalism as we did.

YS

[pasta]

Neither have I read of any instances; other than weapons tests; when they flew with warshot weapons.
Me neither. If there had been a Soviet equivalent to Chrome Dome, I'm quite certain they'd have made sure we knew about it!

[A_Van]

2 racedo:

You wrote:
"..... and avoid loading Nukes on aircraft. Down to possibility of crashing...."


That's correct. I do not know, though, if many incidents and bomb losses in the US AF influenced the decision to avoid loading nukes on the bombers without a solid reason (like the Caribbean crisis, e.g.). After the Soviet Union fell apart, all the archives were made accessible and no mysteries remained. Indeed, many accidents with subs happened, but no serious ones with aircraft. See, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_nuclear_accidents


You wrote:
"...or because of lack of control issues... "


definitely not, everything was (and is) OK with control.


You wrote:
"or there wasn't enough trust in Pilots."


Absolutely not. The pilots (and all other personnel dealing with this stuff) passed through extremely tough selection and were monitored permanently. As it was already correctly mentioned above, the number of experts involved was limited to absolute minimum, they all were highly qualified military pilots and engineers.

[Davef68]

V-Force - nil to answer your question.

Other than the test drops, did any UK aircraft ever fly with a live weapon?

[Tankertrashnav]

There were 3 weapons inside, one of which was so badly damaged it was close to detonation.

I assume you mean a conventional detonation, with possible spread of radioactive material, as opposed to a nuclear explosion, which I always understood to be virtually impossible to occur accidentally.

[GlobalNav]

"Other than the test drops, did any UK aircraft ever fly with a live weapon?"

Unless this information has been officially released, wouldn't it be classified? Should we not be careful?

[langleybaston]

Thinking out loud, one wonders, for example, how weapons [if there were any] were retrieved from RAFG during the run-down.

Other than secretly, of course.

[Tankertrashnav]

Unless this information has been officially released, wouldn't it be classified? Should we not be careful?

Nah, P-N will tell us everything we want to know.

With one eye on the street outside for the arrival of the van with blacked out windows, of course ;)

[Treble one]

Its my understanding that V bombers never flew with live weapons (apart from on weapon tests of course). Or in Thunderball.


In fact, its possible that the only time they were ever loaded with live weapons was during the Cuban crisis..... but that it an assumption not a fact.

[dagenham]

if you want your eyes opened about the USSR as was read Biohazard - "the Chilling True Story of the Largest Covert Biological Weapons Program in the World"

It was written by Ken Alibek, the person in charge of the programme and who defected when Yeltsin cam to power. You will find out why he left when Yeltsin became powerful and how Yeltsin covered up such an incident on a city wide scale.

Truly scary stuff. if they do this with bugs what do they do with isotopes?

[Hangarshuffle]

There was an incident on the A303 west of RNAS Yeovilton and as I recall on the Ilminster bypass (when it was two lane and not three). And as I recall this was in the spring or summer of 1988. A student in a small sports car crashed into the heavy vehicles carrying the nuclear weapons being transported from somewhere in England down the A303 and onwards to Devonport.
Overnight crash? Student was killed. I saw the car in a local garage at Tintinhull.Flattened, poor young guy.
Cant remember much more about it. Bet you many such things have gone on. Crazy, in retrospect.
Cant even remember why we had these weapons. Were they air dropped onto submarines? Seems crazy now, as all conflict does with age.
Not secret, this was in the papers.

[Hangarshuffle]

In 2001 the MoD published an incomplete nuclear convoy accident list | Nuclear Information Service (http://www.nuclearinfo.org/article/accidents/2001-mod-published-incomplete-nuclear-convoy-accident-list)


I tend to believe the troublesome hippies these days rather than the MOD stiffs. The accident could have been horrendous. If it had been a petrol tanker that crashed into the convoy...terrorist ambush? Plenty of life changing disasters in the late 1980's in the UK.

[Postman Plod]

Not the Lakenheath crash, but this one indicates that it might not have been quite as physically impossible for an accident to cause a nuclear detonation as one would have liked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

[Wander00]

Many years ago, well more than 20, I was OC Handbrakes at a large base near Huntingdon and the A1. One of my "secondary" duties was NARO - Nuclear Accident Response. I had some officers and airmen allocated, some vehicles and a "mobile" telephone the size of my largest Oxford English Dictionary, which with its batteries, was in a large suitcase which was just about possible to lift. As I recall we only ever had one exercise, on the airfield, and it was more "talk" than action. Fortunately we were never called out, in my time anyway.

[cornish-stormrider]

There is quite a lot of info out there, now I'd be very interested as to why I once saw a GLCM tractor unit and command vehicle far to the west of their normal operational area.....

That and how many flights it took to empty the SSA at St Mawgan when the yanks pulled the NDB out

[langleybaston]

Wanderoo:

The Met. Office had and has

Procedures And Communications in the event of a release of Radioactive Material (PACRAM)

My generation of C and P Met Os [we reached that level c. 1980] certainly took our regional responsibility seriously and undertook no-notice exercises with Police and Fire services.

Before that, I rather think the procedures and algorithms were "kept in a box file in the cupboard". The first no-notice I provoked at Cardiff Weather Centre caused a lot of fluttering and sqawking!

[tyne]

Did something happen at a Wittering in the 1950s/60s?

I have a relative who grew up in the village and I remember him telling me about some sort of incident when he was a kid.

I recall local milk was banned, and they were spoken to by someone from the RAF about not touching anything unusual they found on the ground.

He was only a kid so can't remember the details. He told me about it 20 years ago.

[Davef68]

P120 contains details of an RAF 'accident'

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/Research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-26-Seminar-the-RAF-and-Nuclear-Weapons-1960-98.pdf

Lots of other interesting stuff as well

[dctyke]

Treble one ; Its my understanding that V bombers never flew with live weapons (apart from on weapon tests of course). Or in Thunderball.
In fact, its possible that the only time they were ever loaded with live weapons was during the Cuban crisis..... but that it an assumption not a fact.


a/c were regularly loaded up on exercises then downloaded before flight. The load team you never knew if it was a live or training weapon till you took the cover off.

[814man]

langleybaston wrote
Quote:
Thinking out loud, one wonders, for example, how weapons [if there were any] were retrieved from RAFG during the run-down.
Other than secretly, of course.

Well quite secretly but they were returned to UK in the same way they were sent out, on a C130. As I recall the RAFG QRA stood down around early 1988 and the SSA was closed in 1996 when all weapons were returned to Honingtons SSA. They were then moved over time back to AWE with Honington SSA closing after the last convoy left in 2001.
Within the UK all weapon movements were done by road convoys.

[PhilipG]

What was the standard practice when the V Force went to its dispersal airfields?

I assume that if the dispersal was for real, that war rounds would be loaded prior to dispersal and that the aircraft would sit armed at their dispersal ramps ready to go at 5 or 15 minutes. Thus making the loading of weapons at the dispersal site not possible.

Am I reading this thread correctly in that on all the dispersal exercises that were undertaken, that all the dispersed planes had drill rounds on them and so the only aircraft that could have launched a retaliatory strike during a dispersal exercise were those at the main bases?

Or have I misunderstood what has been posted above?

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, tut tut.

Dave, no live rounds on the bombers.

HS, the OP referred aircraft accidents in-flight AFAIK.

Tyne, correct, Violet C!ub IIRC. The milk issue was probably Strontium 90 after the accident at Sellafield, same period. Live weapons were loaded on all QRA aircraft until the RN took over. Live weapons also unused some exercises twice a year or more and also on other alerts other than Cuba.

PhilipG, dispersal exercises such as Mickey Finn, Kinsman etc were only flown with drill rounds. Where we had insufficient drill rounds a live weapon would be loaded, clock stopped,downloaded and then the aircraft floiwn off. Remember exercises were just that. Had warnings and indicators suggested a risk of war it would have been cancelled. Remember, to an observer, it looked real and could have increased tensions.

[PhilipG]

PN, Thanks for the clarity Philip

[VIProds]

Being part of the Special Safety Team, we were informed that Nuclear weapons would only transported by road or rail & as a result we would only be involved if there was a road crash or rail crash. It is interesting that 814man mentions transporting weapons in C130's to RAFG. Also, Davef68 pointer to the Royal Air Force Historical Society document where AVM Michael Robinson states that a Nuclear weapon was transported from Cyprus in a VC10 ??

[langleybaston]

As 814man has written about RAFG [thank you!] I was personally involved when the C130s returned weapons to the UK, answering SASO's "what-ifs" regarding the behaviour of any contamination post-crash.

I also checked the route forecast issued by Brueggen before signing it off.

The flight days were a bit tense for many of us.

[Exnomad]

I worked on weapon release gear in the 1950s and 60s.
Remember that even little things like a Wasp or a Lynx could carry a nuclear depth bomb.
We had mechaised safety pins in our release units for "special weapons" the word nuclear was hardly ever used, operated by a special swith, wirelocked, only to be unlocked by special codeword, , the US has solenoids to remove safety pins in flight, but could not then put it back.

[814man]

Rail transport is used for some civilian nuclear material going to power stations for example, but I'm not aware that weapons were ever moved by rail. There was of course the Chinook trial back in the day, but it was not exactly a huge success........:hmm:

[Pontius Navigator]

It should have been obvious that there were no rail or road links to overseas bases.

I believe the Britannia was the normal means of transport down route though HMG can neither confirm nor deny . . .

[Cpt_Pugwash]

"Within the UK all weapon movements were done by road convoys."

Not so. The alternative transport arrangements were used periodically to ensure there was no loss of expertise.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Funny story about what it would have been like on the receiving end. During the early 70's I was a radar tech stationed on a mountain top just NW of the Golden Gate Bridge. We had a exercise. I was given a stopwatch, a compass, a telephone, and a dosimeter, and told to sit in a foxhole on the edge of the peak with a gorgeous view of the San Francisco Bay Area. There was a phone jack for the phone. I was to scan the scene, and when I saw the flash of a nuke going off, start my stopwatch and use my compass to take a bearing to the mushroom cloud. When I heard the bang I was to note the time interval, and phone in the bearing and time. In the operations building they had a large map of the bay area, with a measuring stick marked in seconds at the speed of sound. They would swing that to the bearing and mark the distance given by the flash/bang interval. The dosimeter was a yellow pen-like thing. You looked thru it like a telescope and you'd see a scale and some indicator of how much radiation you'd been exposed to. I put it in the pocket of my field jacket and forgot to return it, still have it. I laugh to think what it would have been like, an earnest 21 yr old trying to keep track of flash/bang intervals as nukes went off like popcorn popping.

[Pontius Navigator]

PPRT, how quaint. In the 60s you already had Nudets.

In UK we had the Royal Observer Corps, volunteers in small buried bunkers spread discretely around the UK and manned by 3 people. Burst direction was observed using the burn marks on a paper screen I believe. Many bunkers were only a few miles from major target s but they should have been OK.
Less fortunate would have been their liaison officers at the target.

[superplum]

I was "personally" involved too - they were mine until taxy!
:=

[Tocsin]

PPRT, how quaint. In the 60s you already had Nudets.

In UK we had the Royal Observer Corps, volunteers in small buried bunkers spread discretely around the UK and manned by 3 people. Burst direction was observed using the burn marks on a paper screen I believe. Many bunkers were only a few miles from major target s but they should have been OK.
Less fortunate would have been their liaison officers at the target.

Quite right, PN! The Ground Zero Indicator (GZI) was a small white dustbin with four pinhole cameras showing elevation and bearing of any burst on photographic paper. Before that the Bomb Power Indicator (BPI) showed the overpressure of the blast, and after waiting a minute No. 3 Observer went out to change the papers... :eek:

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Thanks PP and Tocsin (now I know where Tocsin comes from). The Royal Observer Corps of WWII is legendary, had no idea they had a mission into the nuke age. Wikipedia has a lot of info on the ROC and their equipment, including the Bomb Power Indicator and Ground Zero Indicator. Most interesting, much more organized and thought out than my experience. I'm thankful that the balloon never went up, though the incidents in this thread are hair-raising.

[Roadster280]

Funny story about what it would have been like on the receiving end. During the early 70's I was a radar tech stationed on a mountain top just NW of the Golden Gate Bridge. We had a exercise. I was given a stopwatch, a compass, a telephone, and a dosimeter, and told to sit in a foxhole on the edge of the peak with a gorgeous view of the San Francisco Bay Area. There was a phone jack for the phone. I was to scan the scene, and when I saw the flash of a nuke going off, start my stopwatch and use my compass to take a bearing to the mushroom cloud. When I heard the bang I was to note the time interval, and phone in the bearing and time. In the operations building they had a large map of the bay area, with a measuring stick marked in seconds at the speed of sound. They would swing that to the bearing and mark the distance given by the flash/bang interval. The dosimeter was a yellow pen-like thing. You looked thru it like a telescope and you'd see a scale and some indicator of how much radiation you'd been exposed to. I put it in the pocket of my field jacket and forgot to return it, still have it. I laugh to think what it would have been like, an earnest 21 yr old trying to keep track of flash/bang intervals as nukes went off like popcorn popping.

I assume you were in the Marin Headlands? I've spent a couple of afternoons mooching around there, very interesting area. As much as the city itself would have been a target, the Presidio etc, I expect you would have been unable to take your measurements on account of having been reduced to atoms. The Nike missile site is still there, open to visitors. Must be all of a mile from the bridge.

[FlapJackMuncher]

Was told a story by a former Engineering Officer (now sadly passed), who was ground crew on one of the bomber squadrons.
He was leaning in to the cockpit to check the straps etc on the pilots during one of the 'exercises' when all the pens from his top pocket fell on to the floor.
Despite scrabbling around he couldn't find them all.
The crew agreed to keep quiet about it as it would have made their aircraft u/s.

I can't remember how much of his bar tab it cost him though.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Yes Roadster280, I was stationed on top of Mt Tamalpias. There is still a radar there, but now it's an automated FAA radar. When I first got there we shared the site with the army, they used our radar data for those Nike missiles. Visitors to the San Francisco area can check out that Nike missile site at the Marin Headlands State Park. They also have a 16" gun on display, from the WWII era. If you visit, check that out, and also Angel Island. They had a Nike site out there too, with notches cut out of the hillside to fire at Ruskie bombers coming in from the NW.

One more funny nuke story, distantly related to Flapjackmuncher's tale. My dad refueled nuclear subs at Mare Island. They found half a booty IN THE REACTOR VESSEL. The refueling operation was halted while they searched for the OTHER HALF. This is all very expensive and embarrassing. After a few days of desperate searching, they find another HALF A BOOTY. It is compared with the first half. Does not match. <brief pause> Success is declared, on with the refueling.

For another unbelievable screwup, see the USS Guitarro. The sinking part. I don't know how we survived the Cold War.

[MAINJAFAD]

Thanks PP and Tocsin (now I know where Tocsin comes from). The Royal Observer Corps of WWII is legendary, had no idea they had a mission into the nuke age. Wikipedia has a lot of info on the ROC and their equipment, including the Bomb Power Indicator and Ground Zero Indicator. Most interesting, much more organized and thought out than my experience. I'm thankful that the balloon never went up, though the incidents in this thread are hair-raisingThe UK Monitoring and Warning Organisation of which the ROC was a part made a couple of films that showed how the organisation was to have worked in a case of a nuclear attack. Some of them are now on youtube. The 1962 one has some good footage of RAF air defences going into action to boot.

aEY886b1P34

[Wander00]

In 1969 I was Joe'd off as Project Officer for the ROC Annual Camp at RAF Watton - several hundred Observers for each of 6 weeks. Commandant was Air Commodore Rixon (ISTR) who each Friday hosted a VIP lunch. First guest was the then Minister of State and as a naive youngster in ignorance I tried separating the Minister from his protection officer. Other mistake was when the VIP guest was to be the Duke of Norfolk. Woke in the middle of the night exclaiming "He's a (adjectival) Catholic" - which surprised the then Mrs W. I explained that I had just realised that the VIP lunch was Friday, the D of N was the UK's leading lay Catholic and we were planning to give him roast beef. Fortunately between Wednesday and Friday we manage to source a fishy alternative. The ROC were a committed bunch of boys and girls and good fun to have around.

[John Farley]

MAINJAFAD

Thank you. Very interesting.

[knarfw]

There's a whole sub-forum for ROC posts including those that have been restored on the 28 Days later Urbex site:


ROC Posts | 28DaysLater.co.uk (http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/roc-posts.f50)

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

MAINJAFAD, enjoyed that, particularly the guy who ventures out of the bunker to change the Ground Zero Indicator... casually glancing over his shoulder at a mushroom cloud.

[MAINJAFAD]

MAINJAFAD, enjoyed that, particularly the guy who ventures out of the bunker to change the Ground Zero Indicator... casually glancing over his shoulder at a mushroom cloud.


Thanks, I came across the video after somebody put some screen shots of the Bloodhound and the firing button for it being pressed onto the Facebook page for a former station of mine. After informing the individual that the missile was the Mk 1 which wasn't based at the station but was footage I'd never seen before, namely colour footage of the operators console and of an operational Mk 1 on the launcher, he sent me the link. I would love to find what film that Bloodhound footage was taken from as I've never seen a film that covers the operational Mk 1 system' which was very before my time (There were films made about the Mk 2 which was what I spent the first four years of my operational RAF career working on). Loved the short bit of footage of the Radar Type 80 at the MRS as well, the last equipment I did in Trade Training at No 1 Radio School, which if I ever wrote a chapter of my life about would be titled 'I learnt about Valve Biasing from that'. One of the things that students at Locking got pinged for was to provide manpower for NARO in the shape of bodies for the outer cordon if there was any incident on our patch and we did get some training for it, but we were never called out while I was there.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

That Bloodhound missile is awesome- looks like a Star Wars prop. I see the unique appearance is due to the propulsion: 2× Ramjets, 4× solid fuel boosters.

[ian16th]

When I was on 214 Sqdn at Marham circa 1959-62, our dispersal was very close to the Bloodhounds of 242 Sqdn.

It was unusual to see any human presence, as I believe that they were all underground.

Occasionally, a section/flight of Bloodhounds would slowly start tracking. We could only surmise that they were tracking an 'intruder', probably a civil airliner, as an exercise. It was quite an eerie experience as it seemed to happen randomly and silently.

http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/390.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

One of the Mk 1 Controllers told me the missile firing links were not connected. Someone would cycle out and fiut them to each missile.

I don't suppose anyone was worried about where the boosters landed as that was the least of the problems.

OTOH in Cypruys a different mater with the potential for Lightning's and boosters . . .

[Sky Sports]

Don't forget about the weapon the Americans accidently dropped into Rendlesham forest just off the eastern end of the Woodbridge runway.

An elaborate cover-up then took place, with the Americans claiming to be chasing UFO's around, while they were in fact, cleaning up the mess over a two night period.

It's better to make out you are doing something wacky like chasing strange lights, than cough to having another nuclear accident on foreign soil!

[LowObservable]

I was two years old and not far from Greenham in 1958. According to local urban legend, a whole bunch of USAF people and their dependents experienced a sudden and urgent need to be somewhere other than on-base when the incident occurred.

[biscuit74]

I was for a while in the Sixties part of a Civil Defence 'Scientific Intelligence Team', another part of the UK Warning and Monitoring Organisation.
Our job was to take the ROC information and any other available information and make best estimates of the intensity and extent of the damage and radiation zones, plus of course the resultant likely fallout plumes.
This was to help rescue and evacuation work etc. largely for the civilian services. For a keen youngster it was rather sobering - especially when thinking about what would have happened to those reporting, if the simulations had ever gone real.
The most interesting part was using (by memory) USAF data to estimate the likely impact on road and rail communications due to building, extensive forest or bridge damage, which would slow rescue.
The so-called War Emergency Dose for radiation was a very large dose expected to have fairly major effects, but supposedly not immediately fatal.


I recall one exercise which presumed that the Soviets had hit the Gareloch and the nuclear weapons store nearby. The possible size and extent of the resulting fallout plume worst case estimates was stunning.


On reflection, we were very lucky no-one ever used the beasts.

[langleybaston]

You used Met Office forecasters for plume spread data .......... I was S Met O at Fiskerton and then Horsham.

[biscuit74]

Yes, accurate meteorology was vital. The mix of skills and duties involved from all over the country in all sorts of specialities fascinated me. A very complex set of problems, and the way possible solutions were developed I found intriguing, as a very tiny cog in a big system.

It led to a lifelong interest in meteorology and aviation amongst other things.

[tartare]

That is a fascinating doco on so many levels.
Shows how a task today done digitally was done using people and analog means.
And social mores - no women in roles of authority - all very subservient!

[Pontius Navigator]

That met was known as Blue Met.

Regarding military dosage levels, it was only immediate levels that were of concern. How long could you remain effective for?

[biscuit74]

On dosage level, my recollection is that we worked on a WED of 75 roentgen for purposes of estimating the worst case usefulness of rescue staff - or the potential for use of various routes for evacuation.
We understood at the time that the armed forces uses the same or similar values; I recall quite a lot of discussion amongst the scientists - almost all the staff were research scientists, some impressively eminent and well known (spending time listening to them was a major upside for an impressionable youth!) - as to how the limits had been derived, and what the experimental evidence backing it up was. The suspicion was that medical tests after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were probably important, plus much extrapolation given the uncontrolled nature of the 'experimental conditions' !


Form what I have seen much more recently, those dosages would have dramatically reduced life expectancy and lifespan, to say the least. Hmm.

[Pontius Navigator]

Biscuit, later on, and I can't remember the year, we were lectured by Wexford-Welch one of 3 wg cdr/cdr who rotated through 3 posts one of which was in the US. He showed us radiated entrails of monkeys.

[Landroger]

On dosage level, my recollection is that we worked on a WED of 75 roentgen for purposes of estimating the worst case usefulness of rescue staff - or the potential for use of various routes for evacuation.
We understood at the time that the armed forces uses the same or similar values; I recall quite a lot of discussion amongst the scientists - almost all the staff were research scientists, some impressively eminent and well known (spending time listening to them was a major upside for an impressionable youth!) - as to how the limits had been derived, and what the experimental evidence backing it up was. The suspicion was that medical tests after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were probably important, plus much extrapolation given the uncontrolled nature of the 'experimental conditions' !


Form what I have seen much more recently, those dosages would have dramatically reduced life expectancy and lifespan, to say the least. Hmm.

Back in the early eighties, I often worked on the CT Scanner at a well known Hospital in Surrey. Among their specialties was a form of radiation therapy which 'killed' diseased bone marrow immediately prior to bone marrow transplant. Stay with me on this, I think there is a connection.

One of the problems with their technique was that repeated doses to various parts of the body had the obvious effect of making the patient very ill indeed, sometimes too ill for the treatment (replacement bone marrow) to have any great effect. So, they reasoned that if they could irradiate the patient's whole body in 'one go', they would be in better shape to take immediate benefit. I knew the man who designed the machine they were building and it was scary.

To give an idea of scale, the 'source' for their previous system which irradiated individual limbs and body areas was, the size of a pencil eraser. (The little rubber thing on the end of a pencil?) This was transported in the back of a Land Rover - just that in its containment! The source they would need for the whole body irradiator was the size of a 'D' Cell battery and would need a twelve ton flat bed to transport it.

Now the guy who designed it did admit that when he rang Aldermaston to discuss the delivery of the source, he was told "Not over an open line!" Furthermore, the MOD wanted to install monitoring equipment in the room where the patients would be. When he asked why, they told him they wanted to know what happened when real people got close to an Atom Bomb.

It didn't take Sherlock Holmes to answer your question; "...as to how the limits had been derived, and what the experimental evidence backing it up was. " Probably not much Hiroshima/ Nagasaki, more the Royal XXXXXXX Hospital in Surrey.

Landroger

[Al R]

Langley Baston:

As 814man has written about RAFG [thank you!] I was personally involved when the C130s returned weapons to the UK, answering SASO's "what-ifs" regarding the behaviour of any contamination post-crash.

I also checked the route forecast issued by Brueggen before signing it off.

The flight days were a bit tense for many of us.

My most utterly, absolutely god awful posting. I was working in the SSA the day the final piece of kit left. We knew they were all being shuttled out and had started the transition to WS3 anyway.

Some of the flights were dummy flights, the one in question we had no idea was the last until the boss ambled into the site and told us to stand down. We got on the blower to DB in the tower and told him to come down.. bless him, he requested a duress authentication. He only came down when he saw us playing footy shirts off, below him.

I found an item recently, the old face to face book (if you need to ask etc) which is quite a chilling piece of Cold War ephemera. One of the mugshots was the OC 9 of the time.. chap by the name of Peach. Not sure what happened to him.

[Pontius Navigator]

"He only came down when he saw us playing footy shirts off, below him. "

Ah, laughing gas

[Al R]

"I work for Mr EH Harriman of the Union Pacific Railroad, and he entrusted me..".

"Woodcock, is that you?".