what airlines want?

[gorky]

If you want be a pilot, how are you going to finance your training?
Most of wannabes think they have just to enter in a bank, ask for a loan, do their training in a FTO and then, pay back when hired by an airline. If it was so easy, everybody would do that. It would be easier to be an airline pilot than to be an engineer considering a flight training takes only 2 years.
When airlines look at your resume, they want see the number of hours, your life experience, and the university you did. Better to have (by example): JAR ATP pilot, 1500h, university degree, 33 years,…
Than: 250h Frozen ATP (the superioooor license) 22.5 hours of mini multi engine, 23 years, no degree, daddy sold his house to pay back my loan! And I want fly for an airline….
Com’on guys, that is not serious, what airline is going to give you a multi million dollars aircraft to fly if you can not even go to an University for 4-5 years. Airlines do not want be responsible for you when they will have to kick you out for economic recession.

The best way to become a pilot is to have a well paid job. The best way to find the money is to work hard and to save a lot. And to have a degree.
If you want be a pilot, give up your dream to have an houses, a girl-friend, and even a dog.
Airlines want flexible pilots. Who can be relocated, ready to fly day or night and even the Sunday (yes, yes, even the SUNDAY!!). It s why for years airlines have hired military pilot, because these guys shut up their mouth, they can support high stress situations...
If you want be a pilot, you have to be ready to change your life style, if you do not want go to Africa or Saudi by example to fly for a small airline, how can I hire you? It’s not because your pay your damn money in a school to “buy” a license that you think you will be hired by an airline. (the license give you the authorization to fly an aircraft, it does not mean airlines have to hire you)
Guys, wake up! welcome in the real world!.
To finish, I would like to say to this Mr. WWW that he is right when he says he doesn’t care about how much money you pay, you are a student pilot and that is all.
If you want get your license, an instructor has to follow some procedures called PTS (practical test standard for the FAA), even if you spend 1 million and you can not reach what the FAA or the JAA want , the instructor can not present you for the final test. If you have some problems to get your solo or to pass your written tests, I suggest you strongly to change job, but please avoid us to deal with people like that.
On my desk, every month I have hundred resumes coming from unqualified pilots, no one is a cfi , no one has a seaplane or a bush license.
Why should I hire a guy like that?
What will happen if I send you away for 6 months in central Africa to fly a line for a X company.
Will you stay or will you leave for a company based at proximity of your girlfriend’s house, (or mommy’ house).

If you can not admit with what I write, I think it’ s time to check with your local Mc Donald if they have some openings for this summer.

[Ivan Ivanovich]

Despite Gorky's approach, I think he's probably right - on most points!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: do not even think about becoming an airline pilot unless you really, really, really want to be one. And that means being prepared to make all the sacrifices Gorky has so inelequently, but so effectively spelt out!

Think before you spend, before you sweat, before you stress, before you sacrifice. Then commit.

[Pinky95]

I guess so on most points, but it's a bit to straight forward in my opinion. Why shouldn't a 250hr frozen ATPL be good enough to be able to fly such a million dollar aircraft, many companies have proven they can. You need to get your typerating before you start anyway and i don't think you'll get that anyway if the airline thinks your not up to it.
I agree you have to be able to sacrifice a lot, but if you can't live a somewhat decent life outside the flying i think no-one would last a lifetime career up in the skies.

[biped]

Gorky. I've got the license. I've made sacrifices. I'm willing to relocate anywhere. I couldn't care less how close I am to home comforts.
I've got 235 hours and no university degree. I wish I had, but I'm to old now to go back to that. What are you suggesting, that I don't bother applying because I havent a degree. I passed 14 theoretical exams. Does that count for nothing.
And I didn't buy my license. I earned it.
Or am I missing your point?

[skysheriff]

the JAR ATPL is a scam, in JAR FTOs they make students believe they will find a job in Europe with 250 TT, which is rather the exception. Instructing is almost working for free and this is not an option for everyone. So many wannabes are left low and dry.

As for a seaplane rating, you must be joking. Is your outfit really operating beavers or grummans ?

[Luke SkyToddler]

My god ... a thinking, indeed an almost reasoned, post from ronchonner :eek: :eek:

Although 'gorky' is, in reality, a failed wannabe with a fairly tenous grasp on reality also known as ronchonner, ( whose last post before he got banned from here was a half page rant accusing all JAA licenced pilots of having yellow tattoos on their dicks, as I recall :rolleyes: ). He's at least trying to preach the same gospel here that WWW has been hammering away at, and one that I have seen so many former students learn the hard way ... in the current employment climate a 19 year old, school leaving, plain-jane FATPL holder with no qualifications, no life experience and no back up plan, is going to find themselves with about as many prospects as a plate of ham sandwiches at a bar mitzvah. This is a bad thing, and if you're in that position and especially if you're standing on the brink of spending a vast sum of other people's money, you should think very very hard about why you're doing it.

Not a bad effort at all by your standards ronchy boy ... although obviously your medication was wearing off by the end there when you started bangin on about all the cvs that cross your desk and all the pilots you hire. However, you score top marks for trying to engage people in debate rather than pour abuse on them for a change :)

Here's an idea ... why don't you dispense with all the posturing, and tell us where it all went wrong for you, and why you have such a down on Europe and the JAA? It must have been really bad ... I'd honestly, no bullsh!t like to hear your story. Your real story, that is. You never know, someone in here might even be able to help you ...

[batty]

Whats all this bull about having to have a degree to even be looked at by an airline! Complete rubbish!!!

Some life experience is a bonus I am sure, but a degree is not the be all and end all, maybe in the States where they are given out with the morning cornflakes but certainly not in Europe and the UK. You can get a degree in Coronation Street these days, mmmm yeah that makes you realy employable......

The airlines want you to have jumped through all the hoops to have a FATPL not just the CPL, they like to see that you have some experience after training ie instructing or the like so that you have some hours behind you. They want so see that you will fit in with their culture and be easily and CHEAPLY trained (not needing extra hours that cost them money)

MOST importantly you have to be in the right place at the right time, and that applies from the 200hrs FATPL to the 1500hr+ FI.

A degree will give you a back up plan and thats pretty much it!!

[Ivan Ivanovich]

Yes, the first thing I thought when I began reading Gorky's post was Ronchonner, but it matters little. Ignore the words and individual points he has actually written because the overall point he is making is a valid one: expect major sacrifices, be flexible, work incredibly hard, expect to meet great disappointment, but remain determined to see it through.

If you think being a pilot would be a great job and you fancy having a bash, then perhaps you're going to be in for a rude awakening, perhaps not.

I believe that's the message he is trying to get across - the fact he can't express that without ranting shouldn't render his message any less valid.

[buttline]

I've heard the view expressed that airlines actually prefer to get pilots with low hours so they can be taught properly and haven't picked up any bad habits yet..?

[JAR_monkey]

Couldn't agree more Batty!
All this degree talk really gets on my t#*s.
Admission - I have no degree. Has it held me back - has it b*ll#~#s! It didn't stop me having a city career, it didn't stop me driving a US$50m yacht around the world or being responsible for a 25-man crew. It sure as hell won't stop me from flying baby-boeings as and when I get my opportunity.
I've got life experience with a capital E!! Have lived and worked around the world in a variety of testing and challenging conditions. I've been in and around flying for 15 years and followed the civil industry seriously for the last 8. I also have a background in Air Traffic. The JAR system will spit me out in a couple of months time in low hour fATPL form. I have no pretensions as to what this means. I will in all likelihood scratch around for a year or two, getting quality hours on what I can and keeping current in a good sim. I'll rub shoulders with operators of all types anywhere I can, where my hard-won knowledge of hardware, procedures and company current affaires will impress and my kindered aviation spirit will hopefully be easy to warm-to. And one-day I will be in the right place at the right time and I will be offered my first flying job proper. I will get my big break into professional flying and some operator is going to get an enthusiastic, knowlegable, 3-dimensional pilot with a wealth of broad life-experience under his belt but no attitude or pretense to being anything other than what I am - an apprentice. Or he can go and find himself a nice graduate with Honors in "Surfing Technology" with an ability to drink 9 pints in 3 minutes and a poor work ethic, who believes the world owes him and his superior intellectualism a living - Don't Make Me Laugh!

Thank god we have a mature enough system in Europe in general and the UK in particular, which generally sees through this degree mentality cr@#. If only they were as enlightened the other side of the pond.

I am sorry to have gone off on one folks (on my maiden post as well!), but I have come across this whole thing time and time again in my travels and it doesn't smell any better now. There is nothing wrong with any graduate as a rule (Surfing Technologists included), but employers everywhere - beware the graduate who tells you that his Surfing Technology degree makes him a more suitable choice for any job other than Surfboard Technician.

It just aint so my friends......

[tailscrape]

Batty/JAR Monkey,

Spot on.

I have got the vast total of 3 GCSE's. Not in Maths either!

It didn't stop me getting into the London Stock Exchange and eventually becoming a Market Maker for large merchant banks.

That gave me the money to go to OATS at 25 years old....I had worked soooo hard to get that City Job.

I passed OATS with no real big problems.

I got into ATP Academy at 27 years old, because I had the right attitude, right age, seemed good enough and proved it. I guess my LIFE EXPERIENCE helped a lot.

I then got my job on a 757. I have not had to resit one single bit of anything since getting the offer. So would a degree help? Bollo??s it would....

Exams count for Naff all.

If you have the right outlook, are not a ****, you will succeed if you keep at it.

I know Batty from our days at OATS. He is exactly what I say from the above.

Don't listen to Ronchonner (or whatever he is called now). All our circumstances are different. Just like every Chief Pilot's are........

Stick at it all you wannabees.

[lonerider]

Its not one or the other you know. You can still go to university AND have a flying career too.

I fully agree that pilots working for either the military or airlines should be university educated. Why not? They are doing a professional job and demanding professional salaries and see themselves on a par with doctors. People who have been to university show that they value education and above all are willing to learn. I believe that it makes you a much more aware and rounded individual after going to university, essential as pilots are the airlines front men. After all who wants to talk to someone whose only conversation topic is flying and football, 24-7!!

I don’t doubt that people have made it ‘big’ without degrees such as Bill Gates et al, and good on them, but the vast majority of people out their earning good (100k above) salaries are educated people, like it or not.

In fact if you look at graduates earning capacity over their working life they more or less triple that of the non-graduate.

Sure life experience counts but when you are only 18 and embark on a 4 year degree course that only makes you 22!! Not exactly over the hill, giving you plenty of time to work in the city even before starting aviation. Where is the problem?

Above all if your young and capable choose a good university and good degree subject. You having nothing to lose. Just make sure that you don’t end up in 10k worth of debt and you’ll be fine. Education after all in never lost.

[tailscrape]

Lonerider,

Your post reads very arrogantly .

I hope you already have a flying job, or else you had best learn to disguise your ill advised snobbery.

Re read my post. I did not go to University, and have possibly had as interesting a life as many people do in a lifetime. I however am not even 30 yet.

Oh, and my topics of conversation are more wide ranging than just football and flying.

Your generalisations are I am not ashamed to say, quite monstrously blinkered.

Once you have finished reading your Uni books, get a life. You may enjoy it......

[lonerider]

Apologies I didn’t want to sound arrogant or cause offence with my post. It was aimed at no one in particular, I just stated my opinion on the subject. I have re-read my post and nothing seems to be unreasonable nor unrealistic and I take nothing back.

I really think though, in todays age where university is open to many more kids, even compared to a decade ago it would be foolish to miss out on gaining a good degree from a good university. In fact I think if you have good grades at A-Level the choice not go to university speaks volumes about you as a person and your attitude to life. There are exceptions to that I’m sure, but generally speaking it’s the case.

The sentence where I mentioned about flying and football was a generalisation and you have blown it all out of context! I don’t imagine for one minute that any pilot with or without a degree can only talk about those two subjects. All I was doing was to illustrate my point that by going to university it widens your horizons to many things, not just academics. Going to university can’t do you any harm can it and at the age of 21 or 22 there is more than enough time to ‘get a life’ and that much wanted position on the flight deck.

[biped]

Lonerider. Doctors go to university to train to be doctors.
I went to a place that trains pilots. Do you see what I am trying to say. I have fullfilled the requirements to get a pilots license degree or not. So I have as much right to fly an aircraft as anyone else.

If you have a degree congratulations. However, that doesn't make you better than someone who hasn't, and someone without a degree isn't necessarily uneducated. You can educate yourself by reading a book (daily). Also, someone with a degree isn't necessarily educated hence the term "an educated idiot".

I just think you have a very blinkered view of things.

p.s. What's happened to Gorky? He's gone very quiet considering he started all this!

[AlphaCharlie]

Listen, is it just me or is the wannabes section flooded with people going on and on and on and on about degrees, total hours, life experience etc. I'm sure the average wannabe knows that in an ideal world you would have great GCSEs, great A-levels, a degree, good flight school, lots of hours etc. But real-life has shown that you don't need a degree to get a flying job (BA doesn't require its cadets to have a degree, let alone 20-30 years ago when no one went to uni), Easyjet or Ryanair were at one stage recruiting people with fATPLs.

In the current situation, with everyone so frustrated, all most people want to hear is when airlines will start to recruit again, when will BA restart its cadet scheme, and is BMI going to place an ad in Flight this september?

I remember about a year ago when I applied to the BA TEP scheme, the wannabes section was flooded with info about BA and how to apply and what happens if you get on the scheme etc etc. Where have all these people gone? Why aren't we hearing from the BA recruits currently on the TEP scheme, who should be concerned about their future. Why are they no tales about how people became pilots, or how they financed their training.

I'm a fairly level-headed bloke. I'm at uni (1 more year to go thank god!), I'm working at LHR again this summer, I have good A-levels and GCSEs, I know that the chance of being sponsored is 1:10,000, I realise that I will need to raise the funds some other way. I don't need some jumped up failed wannabe telling me this. Give us wannabes some credit.

Bring back happy, interesting, encouraging wannabes (and somebody kill Osama Bin Laden!)

Sorry about the rambling, ranting post - bad day, and just the way I feel. We are all down hearted about things in the aviation world, can't we try and keep the wannabes section upbeat, and leave the bad news to the runours and news section.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Having a degree in itself is a crock ... it won't make you a better pilot. However, there's a lot to be said for doing something else other than commercial pilot training for those first 3 or 4 years after leaving school. Reason being, that the attrition rate amongst freshly qualified 18 year old CPL holders is a LOT higher than amongst the older guys. It's a fact that a teenage CPL holder (and particularly one that looks young) will struggle to get employed, particularly in the instructing or air taxi sides of the industry that involve a lot of up close and personal contact with the punters. Like it or not it creates a negative impression on a fair percentage of the customers.

[RoyMunson]

Tailscrape.....heard from a couple of mates from OATS that all you do talk about is flying!!!
I bet those long sectors must intersting what with you discussing gyroscopes and how the ILS works....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Bucking Bronco]

Tailscrape ;- you appear to be the "monstrously" arrogant person on this subject if you dont mind me saying. Patronising and perhaps a little blinkered come to mind too. If youre so good and pass all your exams first time, what happened to the rest of your CSEs ? Getting a degree and qualifications would seem to be a better plan to me.

[tailscrape]

W~nkerman,

Nice one. That's all I ever do!

Bucking Bronco,

I don't see why you say that. I was drawing a relation between Degrees and other qualifications.

If you think I am arrogant then that's fine with me. I am happy with my lot, you on the other hand may not be so happy with yours??

I am not a hot shot, I f?cked my GCSE's up because I was lazy. I had to work very hard to get where I am, with my OWN money. So, if you have a problem with that, tough.

I worked hard and got lucky. You don't need a degree for that.

So, if you don't like it and don't want to hear true stories from lucky individuals.......well just head elsewhere.

Good luck. I hope you get your shoulder chip removed painlessly.....

[Bucking Bronco]

Tailscrape;- Ive got no chip and have been flying something bigger than you for years. Its just a shame that you resort to advising people that qualifications arent necessary. I have several friends at other airlines who lost their jobs post Sept 11th and those that had degree qualification have found it easier to get well paid work in the interim until things pick up. Not placing all your eggs in one basket seems sound advice to me.

Go and take a chill pill and perhaps the doc can also prescribe some tablets to combat your immature soaring arrogance and ego.

[Bucking Bronco]

PP,

How resourceful you are ! My point was to inform Tailscrape that I am more than happy with my lot which what his inference was about.

I wish you the best of luck. If you are as young as you are and manage to get a job then the best of British to you. I am not knocking those without qualifications but merely attempting to point out the pitfalls in this business that is notoriously unpredictable. Having something to fall back on is no bad thing.

[JAR_monkey]

Lonerider,

Graduates nearly always come in 3 flavours:

The STRAWBERRY SENSATIONS are those graduates who have carefully selected their degree course in a mainstream discipline with a view to vocational excellence in that discipline and are to be applauded and have their cv sent to the top of the pile. The other 95% of graduates can be split into one of the two remaining flavours (usually within about 5 mins of tasting).

The ORDINARY ORANGE flavour are those who sensibly recognise that they either went to University for social reasons or to study a subject of which they were fond/good at, and who sensibly acknowledge that this time, whilst well worth it to them, makes them no better a generally-educated or interllectual individual than anyone else in society. These guys and gals are to be treated with complete parity of esteem as their colleagues who decided to try their luck out there in the real world. They are also to have their relative efforts praised accordingly.

Then there are the LEMONS. These last, and really rather bad tasting individuals, believe that in going through the motions of a degree course they have somehow been elevated to "Professional Status" and are destined for far greater things, none of which they really know anything about, but all of which will involve earning enough money to buy the trappings that will help silence the little voice inside them that says "I am as ordinary now as the day I was when I filled in the UCCA/PCAS forms 4 years ago". These nasty little bas@#~s will nearly always leave a bitter taste in your mouth - BEWARE!!

As for "graduates have shown that they value education" - I suppose that they have done this to the exclusion of the rest of us. I mean, if you haven't been to University then you obviously don't read books /journals, listen to educational programmes or actually go out into the big wide world and educate yourself first hand. Yes thats right, those models you read about in the text books actually occur in the REAL world too - groovy eh? The kind of arrogance that inspires a comment like "people whose only conversation topic is flying and football" defies belief. Exactly which planet do you come from?

In a previous incarnation I used to screen CV's and interview hopefulls in the city. The guys and gals were typically 23/24 years of age and the majority were graduates. I can tell you that with very few exceptions, the impressive candidates were the youngsters who had gone out into the real world and bought themselves a big 'ol chunk of Life Experience - these were the guys and gals with character, confidence, broad horizons i.e "ROUNDED INDIVIDUALS". Just how exactly do you become rounded by situating yourself in one of our great nations more undesirable suburbs for 3 or 4 years, attending lectures 3 or 4 days out of 7, writing the odd dissitation, and generally living it large down the boozer or student union, with a bit of a club sesh at weekends!?! (Answer in 5000 words or less).

I take your point that post-university folks are still youngsters in the scheme of things and have many years to experience life thereafter. I agree 100%. However - if they do so, harbouring the kind of narrow minded mentality and sporting the kind of superiority complex that you demonstrate - well the real lessons that life has to offer will be wasted on them.

Lonerider is quite right - if you do decide University is for you then give it your all, enjoy and try to aim for Strawberry or Orange flavour- remember nobody likes a Lemon!!!! If you really feel that in your heart of hearts University is not your thing - don't be press-ganged into it by the ill-advised and frankly small-minded twaddle that has been promelgated on this page.

I cannot claim to know the author of these comments and so hope that they are born of the "arrogance of youth". If not, you have my very deepest sympathy - I'll give you a wide berth at the bar!

Lonerider - are you surprised?

[JAR_monkey]

Lonerider

I had not noticed your apology prior to posting my last preaching! In light of this I too apologise for any offence caused by my own comments.

I do notice that you don't take any of your comments back and so, unsurprisingly..............nor will I.

[lonerider]

I don’t understand some people on this board. All I did was state my own opinion on this subject, criticising absolutely nobody personally and all I get is a load of abuse. Simply because you don’t like what I said!! Well I’m sorry but I do believe that qualifications are important in life, increasingly so as more people find the path to higher education. You can argue with me all day if you like, my opinion will not change, and why the hell should it.

All I said was if the opportunity to go to university arises take it, in fact grab it with both hands. What is wrong with that? Many jobs state a minimum set of qualifications, for example the RAF want 2 ‘A’ levels and some TEP schemes also state the same. But how many people actually succeed with these minimum qualifications? Not many. The vast majority are graduates. In fact any job that you go for you will be hard pushed to secure if you just go off the absolute minimum. You are far better to load up with as many qualifications as possible. Its just a fact of life I’m afraid. True to say theres loads of pilots out there with no qualifications whatsoever, but most trained 30 or so years ago when the world was a very different place than it is today. Anybody today would be wise to stay on in education as long as possible.

You seem to think that after leaving school at 16 anyone who studies and passes all the licences are automatically guaranteed or even entitled to an airline job for life!! It does not work that way. Tell me then, what happens if you can’t find an airline job or you lose your job? At least with qualifications such as a degree it will allow you to gain some half decent job that provides money to pay off the mortgage or any training debts.

A university degree takes all of 3 or 4 years to complete but is there for life. Especially given the current climate in aviation, any capable 18 year old would be advised to go and get an education before embarking on their professional licences. It also shows employers that you are not a single minded individual just interested in aviation. As I have said before, education widens your horizons to life. You can, like I say, argue with me all day, pointing out exceptions to this rule, but for the average capable 18 year old who wants to be a pilot going to university would be, in my opinion the most sensible thing to do.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Re-posted from an earlier thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50938&perpage=15&highlight=uni&pagenumber=1

-----------

This years Natwest survey shows Uni graduates on average have £10,000 of debt when they leave University.

3 years and 10 grand.

Hmmm.

Personally I might be tempted to avoid this.

I might be very tempted to take the following route.

Get 3 good A-levels and make sure you get decent grades. Maths, English, Geography, Physics, Chem, Electronics. That kind of thing. If you get some A's and B's you have more or less proved you have academic ability. Three years in Uni will only confirm what the A-levels indicate.

With your brains proven on paper I would now apply for a Modern Apprenticeship. There will be a couple of decent local firms that offer them. I used to run such a scheme in an electronics company and we had 30 MA's.

What you will get is 4 days a week at work on proper grown up pay. 1 day a week you are day released to College where you will complete something like an ONC HNC in your chosen Apprenticeship. Usually your work in the workplace will be assessed continually leading the issuance of an NVQ level 3.

Most MA's run for 2, 3 or 4 years. Usually your first year will be minimum wage (take home £220 a week) and this increases each year and when you finish you are up to Technician normal pay scales.

So. You can spend 3 years, £10,000+ getting a degree in a field in which you have NO experience.

Or. You can spend 2, 3 or 4 years earning £10,000+ a year getting an ONC, HNC and NVQ3 in a field in which you are now fully qualified, experienced and competent.

You could complete distance learning ATPL modules in your final Modern Apprenticeship year during months when the colleges are closed. You can live at home and have saved up at least half of your ATPL course. Or perhaps done your PPL and hour building over a couple of years.

If the market is buoyant then you can walk out of your MA any time you like with 4 weeks notice and carry your qualifications and experience to date with you. If you walk out of your Uni place even a day before finals you have blown years of study.

A Modern Apprenticeship will provide for you a FAR better fall back career than a degree coupled with no experience to go with it.

Trust me - you will be able to earn more as a HNC qualified electronic test engineer than you will as a Electronics graduate with no experience. MUCH more.

Similarly - do a MA in something that trains you up as a qualified Plumber, Sparky or Bricky and you will have a rock solid fall back trade that is needed from one end of the country to another.

I have a friend who works as a builder. He got into Chippying. He know specialises in changing and fitting locks in doors and windows in London for commercial premises. He has a bag of chisels and a van. He makes £58,000 a year of which the tax man sees maybe half. He picks his own hours and holidays and is his own boss.

If I lost my medical I would my insurance payout not to refresh my Psychology degree - I would do a plumbing course and buy a van, a mobile and an ad in Yellow Pages... an airline gets me out of bed at 4 in the morning very regularly for no extra compensation... many plumber now charge £75 callout fee in unsocial hours...

Good luck,

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

And as an aside I have just had cause to hire a bricky. £200 for the day, less if cash...

That was my months living allowance in Uni!

WWW

[jasonjdr]

Valid points for both sides of the arguement. (albeit some are a little extreme, generalised and blinkered. But each to their own ;) )

Take your point WWW. But not everyone would feel comfortable moving from RHS or LHS to being a 'Brickie / Sparks / Plumber, etc'! if suddenly your medical was withdrawn.

I have fallen back to my old job in finance, previously had only 2yrs experience in the industry and earning £50k+ p.a. (pays for twin hours, and I'm still looking for the elusive first RHS). But I wouldn't have got the job without a degree. Its a comfortable back stop to have. Not saying its the right or wrong way. Just adding my penny's worth as an example.

Its a very hard decision, particularly in the current market, so good luck to those of you who still have to make it. Who knows what airlines are going to ask for next!!??

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The argument that a degree is a good fallback investment is I think flawed in most cases.

Lets say you do a 3 years computing degree then 3 years in the business before making the leap into aviation. The 3 years on the job would just about pay off your Uni debts and save a bit to go towards your flight training costs.

Lets say you spend the next 6 years pottering about the skies earning your living. Perhaps you are a regional turbprop FO now. Up comes a jet airline job and you're off. Its Sept 10th 1002 and you feel on top of the world as you start your 747 conversion course.

Oh dear. Out on your arse.

Never mind I have a fallback plan. I'll go back to some IT contracting.

You have now lost contact with all your mates in the business who have moved on. You last touched a computer nearly 7 years ago. Your CV has a massive gap in it and you will not impress people at interview talking about the boring old HTML websites you used to engineer or the SAP you implemented at Bloggss Engineering Ltd.

Anybody interviewing you is going to ask themselves "will this person still be around in my Company in three years time"?

The answer patently is NO - he'll be off like a jack rabbit the very first pilot job that comes up.

Whereas.

"Hello, are you Big Harry the builder"?

"Yep - what do you want, I'm a busy man".

"I'm a decent Bricky, I am available tomorrow, got any work"?

"Yeah, job over by the Smithfield, see you at 8.30 sharp mind, £100 a day on this job and if I take you on full time we'll make it £150 - OK"?

"See you tomorrow Big Harry".

Compare and contrast.


WWW

[pil]

this looks like it's rapidly descending into 'what's the best fallback job?' :rolleyes: . but before it does, if no-one minds, i'll pop my tuppence in.

every degree has a shelf life of about 2 years. if you don't use it by then, you've probably forgotten most of the information, and what you can still remember will be obsolete. however, in that two years, it's a factor than can get your CV considered or moved up the pile. better hope it's got you a job in that time, because you'll have all those lovely debt's to pay off :p .
once you have secured employment, it's how you perform in that job that becomes you primary selling point to the next job, and so on. like the saying goes, you're only as good as you last job. when i finally get my licence :rolleyes: , i hope that whether on not you have a degree wont matter one iota, in the same way when i go for a contract now, nobody cares whether you have a degree or not.
restarting an old career after 7 years will be hard in any career as most recommendation comes on work of mouth. however, it'll probably be a chuff site easier than breaking into aviation :(

imho, web site designing (see above) is to IT what feng shui is to building. remember, chick's dig UNIX.

coat on and outtahere

[biped]

Lonerider. Sorry that you think you have been unfairly treated.

I can't speak for anyone else, however, I don't think anyone's response to your post was abusive.

You stated your opinion (which you are entitled to and which was valid) and it was responded to.

I disagreed with your opinion that airline pilot's should have to have degrees. Therefore I countered it using reasonable launguage. This is called a debate and is nothing to get upset about!

I don't disagree that a degree is useful and respect to you if you have one. My point was that it is not the be all and end all of life and having one does not necessarily make you a better person.
The above is also directed a Bucking Bronco.

If you handle people disagreeing with you then don't involve yourself in a discussion!

Lot's of love, from biped

p.s. piperpilot asked if you were a pilot. I'm interested to. Are you?

[mad_jock]

That is a bloody good summary of the life of a contract IT bod WWW
Your only as good as your last contract.

MJ

BTW way i have found my HGV license the only qualification which i can use to get work anywhere in the country.

[Bucking Bronco]

Biped ;- I never said a degree makes a you a better person or am I blind ? Or have I said it is the be-all or end-all, have I ?

If it comes down to having academic qualifications or not having them, I know which camp I'd rather be in. If you'd rather not have them - good for you. They do say ignorance is bliss don't they ? Perhaps an English CSE wouldn't have gone a miss in your case judging by the spelling and lack of sense in one of your sentences in your last post.

[D McQuire]

I agree with the point that doing a degree just as a fall back is a bad idea. It is expensive, extremely time consuming and very hard work if the degree is worth anything at all. I did an electronic engineering degree. It was very much a second choice in life compared to flying but definitely never a fall back. Back then I simply could not get into a cadet program and there was no way I could see I could afford to go the self-improver or integrated route. As it turned out engineering was a good choice. It has served me well as a challenging and interesting profession and once over the first few years after college, paid me pretty well too.

Years later personal and financial circumstances changed such that I arrived at a point recently where I re-examined flying as a career option. Following aptitude and medical tests, I found it was an option and I could now afford it. So soon I will be leaving engineering and hopefully in about 2 years time I will make it to the RHS (of something/anything!) as a paid professional pilot. If for whatever reason I don't make it I have a fall back. My fall back is there not by design, it just worked out that way and I really do not want to have to use it.Short term it's not a particularly useful one either as the nature of my type of engineering means committing to a design project for at least 6 months but more usually up to 2 years. I can step out of electronic engineering for a good number of years without getting out of date, believe it or not it hasn't changed that much in the last 10 years. However stepping back in and out on a week or so's notice is simply not an option. So if I do get to the stage where I have an fATPL and am in that uphill struggle to land that first job, I must consider options other than engineering to earn a living.

I think WWW is about right when it comes to picking a suitable jobs to fall back on if that is all that you want that job for - ideally find something like an apprenticeship you are interested in and pays well enough for those flying hours - mechanic, electrician, carpenter, whatever and something you can pick up or drop at short notice.

As Scroggs has said before, airlines are probably not looking for degrees, they are looking for good pilots. Having a fall back is your choice and your responsibility. I can't imagine airlines really care if you have one or not. If I was doing the hiring and firing I know I wouldn't.

[tailscrape]

Bucking Bronco,

I think it is you my friend who needs to chill....

I don't think I ADVISED anyone to not get exams, indeed I imagine most people on here are already past the level of education I was talking about. i.e. my own.

So, before talking of soar away egos, just check your motives.

My advice was and is based on my life experience. It may not work for others, indeed your life may have taken a different route. So what if it has? We are doing the job we love, and both doing it well....otherwise we wouldn't be there would we???

So, just back down a little bit please.

[scroggs]

You lot seem to be competing to provide the right answer for life. Allow me to let you into a little secret: unless it's 42, there isn't one! There are a million ways to skin this particular cat, and any one of them may be right for any one of you.

Let's try this:

In general, it's a good idea to get good GCSEs and A-levels.

In general, a degree is a desirable thing.

In general, airlines aren't too specific about what qualifications they require other than an ATPL.

In general, the job market right now isn't wonderful (though it is improving), so it's a good idea to think about how you might earn your daily bread if you don't get a flying job.

In general, life experience is extremely valuable.

In general, generalisations are meaningless.

Do what you feel is right for you, but do it to the best of your ability. Do not assume that anyone else's route is necessarily the right one for you, but respect the experience of those who have gone before you. Learn from other's mistakes so that you don't repeat them. Don't behave as though you know it all when you are just beginning your life.

Apply these principles, and you will be far more likely to achieve what you want. And if you don't achieve that, you will be well placed to survive comfortably in an alternative scenario.

[Bucking Bronco]

Tailscrape;- 26th June - "Exams count for naff-all."

Maybe you should remember what you have posted before eh ?

My motives are simple :- to give impartial advice to aspiring wannabes and not to deceive them into thinking that life is a bed of roses in this business and getting a job is a breeze.

There are still a lot of unemployed pilots out there and having other qualifications as I have said before gives you a better edge than not having them. If you disagree that - thats your right.

Without exams Tailsacrape, you would not be flying commercially would you ? I put it to you that they do count for something.

Its interesting that British Airways takes most of its cadets with degree qualification. Right or wrongly, that is fact.

You, by your own admission have been "lucky." I don't think preaching luck is good advice to anyone. Thats my opinion and my right to think that way.

So Chill out !

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A lively debate with people championing the different options illuminates the issues quite well for our younger readers.

Good thread.

WWW

[Bucking Bronco]

PiperPilot;- How do I know the mix of Cadet-entry graduates/non-graduates ? Try life experience ! As for when they will recruit again, I don't know, I'm not management.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Piperpilot

Just an onlooker here buddy who rarely brouses the threads.
I think the advice given by Scroggs is just about spot on. Its not a necessity to have qualifications but it does give you a better chance.

I was a self-sponsored student and am still paying back plenty of training-related debt ! Bucking Bronco is correct in his assertion that most of the cadets are graduates from my experience on a CAP 509 course. I couldn't give you precise figures but whilst I was training with some of them, the mix I would say was about 3 graduates to every 1 non-graduate.

Going to college - beer, women, late nights and no responsibility suited me at the time but then its not everyones cup of tea.

Good luck whatever path you take.

[Bucking Bronco]

Thankyou LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK.

Piperpilot;- In your post dated 26th June you say you are 17 years old. Now you say you are older than me. Which is it ? Or are you just a wind-up merchant ? If you are, you're not helping anyone here. As for "life experience" (or "live experience" as you call it), LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK has just given you some. FACT.

[Bucking Bronco]

Piperpilot;-

I'm glad we've established your age. You are incorrect if you still maintain that graduates form a lesser proportion of BA's Cadet entry intake in recent years. Read LIMA OR ALPHA JUNKS post. If you have information to disprove this lets hear it as you threatened you have.

Take it from people in the know. No disrepect to your age but you are showing your lack of years here.

[Bucking Bronco]

"for all you know, I could have some statistics right here which could totally contradict your fact?"

If you've got em, lets hear them !

[lonerider]

Bucking Bronco,

I totally agree with your comments. Its far better in life to achieve more than necessary rather than just doing the absolute minimum!!

[gorky]

hello,
I have read your comments.
My questions is what guys do when you have no job and debts?

what guys do since the 9/11? are you staying at home waiting airlines call you?because that will not happen!
with no degree, what do you know to do outside of fying?

[darrylpeters]

This post is just becoming an argument between those who went to uni and those who did not. There are good and bad points for each side. Uni does help but it is not the only way. The main thing about uni is learn the importance of networking and how to handle large amounts of work within tight deadlines and you learn to socialise... but you can learn these without going to univerity so why are all you guys arguing.

I dont know much about airlines but I assume they want responsible people to pilot their aircraft and as long as you can prove that you should be able to get through. However I believe nowadays they are looking for some sort of degree.

Another option is to leave school and work in undustry for 3 years and than go to uni and get a masters degree in your relevant industry field. That will save you getting into debt and most unis will enroll you on a masters if you have 2- 3 years relevant work experience.

So if you worked in the city you could sit a masters in business and finance. You need to average only 50% in a Masters degrees to graduate and with all the money you saved you should be able to afford the fees!!


Oh and to the person who claims they were a market maker in the city... Have you seen the recruitment process for the city?? If you have not got a degree you cant get in ... period! And that is just for graduate roles!!
Maybe in your day you could just stroll in to jobs in the city but these days things have changed. Try getting a city job without a degree now?? Your better have some serious contacts!!!

[Bucking Bronco]

Darrylpeters;-

You make some good and valid points.

I'm afraid a couple of guys on this thread didn't like what they heard or didn't hear what they liked and decided to abuse those with qualifications or those who advocated getting them. Personally, I couldn't give a toss if if anyone takes my advice or not. At the end of the day its upto the individual to decide what is best for them and whether or not they go to college.

All I will say is that if I had my life again, at the age of 18 or so I would go and get a qualification and have some fun. You would still have over 35 years in which to fly. Yes, college gets you into debt but if it wasn't worth doing people would stop going.

There are plenty of successful people out there without qualifications but there are more unsuccessful people.

[tailscrape]

You are still missing my point Bronco.

I would not advise people to not have qualifications, but they are not the be all and end all.

By virtue of the fact that I and others have got good jobs with few qualifications means that it must be the case at least some of the time.

As you know and I know, there are times when having a licence will guarantee you an interview and a job (not often mind).

And there are times (like now) when 1000's of hours will guarantee you nothing.

It is a variable feast.

And on the subject of spelling Bronco, just after you tore apart some poor soul for his/her spelling, you then went on to spell my name wrong in your next critiscism of me!

Just a small point.

People in glass houses......etc etc.

[Bucking Bronco]

Tailscrape;-

With respect, it is you who is missing your own point !

"Exams count for naff-all." Your words not mine. If you are now retracting that then fair enough. If you can tell me where I have said exams are the be-all and end-all, then please direct to that relevant post. It may also pay you to read the last sentence in my last post !

You seem to be clutching at straws !

By the way, do mean criticism ? (there endeth todays spelling lesson - only joking !)

[tailscrape]

Bronco,

I retract nothing, because at the end of the day this is all our own subjective opinion.

You seem to want to be correct on everything. If you need that reassurance in life, well great for you. I for one would not be happy going through life believing all I had to back me up was a few bits of paper (which have become easier to gain as time goes by), because at the end of the day just about everyone (bar me) has got all those said bits of paper!

So, what happens then?

Personality probably.

Something which is ingrained at an early age, and cannot be changed.

As far as my previous post went, i will modify it thus for you:

" Exams count for naff all"........ changes to ........." Exams count for naff all in MY CASE, because I have had a successful career in the City of London, and am now an airline pilot."

Perhaps that will assuage your anger over my posts.

If you need to feel a winner bronco, consider it done. Because I for one cannot be bothered in trading pointless banter with you on this subject.......

Do you work for an exam board part time?!?

[jonathang]

Been following this post from the Beginning and has been very relevant to help me make a decision.
:)

What worried me was :( the possibility of two years down the line having the huge debt with no job. Which from what other have said is a Possibility. Also I would be 22 with my Frozen ATPL and very little varied experience.

I am in the position to pay for around half of the costs with the other from loans and help from Parents.

More than anything I want to start the course this year but have now made the decision to go back to Uni for the 3 remaining years of my course.

In 3 years time I will still be in the position to complete the course. But will have tried my hardest to get into any sponsorships assuming some come back.

I would also like to keep up flying and Build hours with the Uni Air Squadron. Spoken to many people who agree that u get good Training and Experience from this.

One guy I have spoken to says that he is certain that he got his Sponsorship from the training he received at the UAS.

I personally think that it is wrong that other Professions use a degree as a benchmark sometimes the only Benchmark.

I can't speak for Aviation in whether this is true or not. But I do know it is true in other Industries. I just want to make sure that I have some fall back if;


1. The Job never happens
2. I find out I am not airline material
3. I fail the medical some time in my life


I am not 100% Pro-Uni by any means have loads of complaints about the course I am on. Some of the teaching is marginal at best.

Just my opinion formed from advice I have received from others.

Thanks for the help.

JonathanG

[edd2000uk]

Firstly I'm not a pilot yet and am still a wannabe, so I probably don't know as much as some of you about the airline industry. I do have family members who are in positions in other fields which involve interviewing prospective employees. From what I've been told one of the first things they do to cut down the numbers of applications is to sift through on the basis of qualifications. They said that this is not a hard and fast rule (ie. best qualifications does not guarantee that candidate gets the job), but a minumum is applied. So in my view in terms of a fallback position in case of losing a flying job, having as many qualifications as possible is a bonus. I do have a degree, but I do not expect that it will be a deciding factor in me getting an airline career. I recently went to a pilot aptitude test and they only asked me about my A-levels! I think that the training itself is the equivalent of getting a degree. My degree was in computer science, so that qualifies me for a job in computer science not as a pilot obviously. To be accepted on this course I did not need a degree but a certain amount/level of A-levels and GCSEs, so why should it be any different for acceptance as a pilot?

[JSMYTHE17]

It is very easy to spot, just from conversation alone, whether someone has a degree or not. It is the whole experience of University which counts and will always give you an edge in any aspect of life. A degree in any subject, be it from Oxbridge or right down the educational tree to a former polytechnic, tells you lots about a person - good under pressure (exams), good planner (made it through long term course), good financial skills (survived on a shoestring).... the list goes on

It is known and recognised that most people socialise, marry etc... into their own educational group. I would advise anyone without a degree, who feels uncomfortable about it to join an Open University course and get going. It will allow you entry into any conversation at the same level as your graduate colleagues and will in fact impress them

On the aviation this issue is something which should be covered in CRM or MCC courses because it affects that Captain - Co-Pilot co-operation thing. The US has tackled this by insisting on a 4-year degree for everyone and has dealt with this issue. It is a burning issue which is reflected in the length of this topic

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

From a UK perspective the above post strikes me a breathtakingly naive.

Perhaps a troll looking for a flame war?

WWW

[batty]

It is very easy to spot, just from conversation alone, whether someone has a degree or not. It is the whole experience of University which counts and will always give you an edge in any aspect of life

What a crock, obviously spoken by someone with very little knowledge of the world around them. My experience in life comes from spending 15 years in the RAF, in the real world. It comes from being in situations that change your life, for example the Gulf War and Bosnia. It comes from putting everything on the line when you have a family and children in order to persue a goal in life, that of becoming an airline pilot.

University may give you a qualification but will NOT give you an edge in every aspect of life.

This is the kind of upper class snobbery that pervades British life and attempts to push many jobs out of the reach of poorer parts of society. Fortunatly at the moment you don't need a degree to become a pilot, indeed the integrated ATPL course is seen to be on a par with a degree anyway.

As I stated at the beginning of this thread you do not need a degree to become an airline pilot and I do not think it helps you in gaining that first job. That first job requires first time passes in IRT and Cpl skills tests (not all the time but generaly at the moment it helps), but more importantly it takes lots of luck and dedication.

Upper class snobbery about your position in life and that you are a better person because you have a degree will not ensure you a job, in fact it more likely to prevent you from getting one.:mad:

[GonvilleBromhead]

"It will allow you entry into any conversation at the same level as your graduate colleagues and will in fact impress them"

Really ?? You knob.

Sorry I don't normally resort to crass abuse but please.....

Now don't tell me, I musn't have a good eduation because I've resorted to calling him a knob, right ??? Anyway, flame away knobby, you'll still be a knob.......(or a wind up knob).

(Sorry mods).

[biped]

That must be a wind up! Or do people like that actually exist?:eek:

[sally at pprune]

I'd vote wind-up, if it were not for the fact that I've met t0ssers like this. On the hand, he has spelt Smith with a 'y'. Surely no self respecting John Smith aged 17 would do that? ;)

[gorky]

anyone can get a job in an airline, but i know very few guys without a degree who found a flying job.Most of these guys are in debt and in deep ####.
I always hear that study or get a degree is BS, I wonder why Universities are full of students.
Actually our fl. schools train thousand of JAR pilot, what they are going to do, if they dont know to do something else.
Mac donald, Burger king even do nt want these guys.

there are to many flight schools, I know what I am talking about.It s just a market to make money and it s sad to see that all these young guys are still dreaming.
aviation is like a lottery,but lot of money you pay to play and there is few chance to win.
anyway, i dont know what the futur will be, so good luck !

[J-Heller]

PP you shouldn't so harsh on Gorky.

Ah I hear you objecting. But you really shouldn't be too critical of Spieling and Grimmer on a forum....and....Stones and glass houses, mate ;) .

BTW 'Gorky' has been on the forum for quite a while, under different usernames. Most notoriously as 'Ronchonner'. He is a wind up merchant, but is (rather worryingly) starting to come forward with more and more coherent posts...

All the best,

JH

[Bemused]

After reading the thread – it doesn’t really offer much help to those in poised between doing a degree first or going straight into flight training.

There have been some uninformed opinions made concerning university, so for those contemplating a degree, here’s some points to consider.

I did a degree in mechanical engineering, and this involved 40 hrs a week plus an average of 2 hrs private study each day. I also fitted in triathlon training, working weekends, and a full social life. Work hard, and play hard – give it 100%, otherwise you’re letting yourself down and not selling yourself to your full potential. That applies to everything in life, I guess.

I met a huge amount of ex-Eton types, generally on doss courses getting smashed most afternoons with their parents’ money. It was grating to see so much cash being pissed up the wall, and even more grating to see the majority of them slide into jobs arranged by old-boy networking of their parents, but again, that is life.

Having chatted to many HR departments from varying fields, a degree in a decent field is recognised as the application of oneself to a challenging and academic endeavour. In addition to the flight-relevant maths/physics skills, I learnt valuable skills in balancing a very high workload with no real income and fun – all skills that translate perfectly to flight training. It is not the only way – as Batty states, the military will also give you an extremely challenging environment (join the Uni OTC?) - but Uni is a well supported route with many grants available to fund part of the course. Uni doesn’t have to involve a huge debt if you’re prepared to work weekends and summers to fund yourself rather than expect it to be paid for by parents, as many seem to do. Again, for many young guys and gals, learning to fund yourself is a valuable skill many are not well enough practiced in to take on a £50K debt…

University isn’t the only path, by any means. A degree in Art History, although personally stimulating, may not translate to a valued career in many fields – however if you weren’t going to go into the Art field, it would obviously be an indulgence more than anything else. My point is that there are challenging, well recognised fields and there are somewhat obscure courses with the students spending most of the day in the pub – but generalising all, as has been done here, is not correct.

I do agree that life experience is extremely important – having worked in competitive environments both in merchant banks in London and in design in the Netherlands, I appreciate that any extra qualification you have over other applicants doesn’t hurt, but more importantly the result has to be good. A 3rd class degree in Geography won’t open many doors. A strong 2:1 in a relevant field will.

I fully appreciate that I have to give flying everything I’ve got, otherwise I’m wasting my money, my time and selling myself short. As long as you know this, you’ll have the determination to succeed.

As to whether airlines value degrees – I’m a wannabe, not a HR guy so it’s not my place to say. Phone the airline HR departments and ask them. I did, they answered a lot of my questions regarding topics such as this, and I recommend going straight to the people who know for a definitive answer.

Thanks
Bemused.

[Chaffers]

Personally I never wanted to go to University in the first place, I would much have preferred to go the 'alternative' route of learning a trade, keeping out of debt and becomming one of the worlds best tournament paintballers:cool: .

I did however have a Sixth Form Scholarship in Pilot, which matured right after the wonderful options for change, so I went to Uni to help my chances with the RAF. A wasted year doing Engineering in Hull followed by three wonderful years reading Strat Studies in Aberystwyth didn't persuade the dudes in blue (or indeed many organisations outside of McD's) so I followed it up with an MSc comp. sci. to run up a total educational bill totalling just over £20k. Thats a lot of cash when the programming market is (apparently) as dead as the airline market. Maybe I would have been better off with my mug on the front cover of PGI??:confused:

Nah...I can see both points of view but the deciding factor for me would be the people I had the opportunity to meet and befriend at University (though maybe not Hull...), 90% of whom I would never have met in my alternate existence.

It would be nice of course to have a trade to fall back on atm rather than rotting away in Cardiff waiting for the damned Java market to pick up but I reckon anyone who has really enjoyed uni to its fullest will never look back, even knowing that other routes could be more profitable.

I guess my case highlights the pros and cons of each option, sure I have high earning potential and lots of pieces of paper to flash at prospective employers, but then again I'm carrying a small mortgage in debt around and havn't played tournaments since '94.:)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Chaffers - 6th Form GDP sponsorship followed by OFC, UNI, UAS and no place available so off to find a real job sounds very familiar to me! Drop me a mail.

Cheers

WWW

[The Riddler]

Some of you may remember back in 1958 a milestone known as Project Mercury.

It was then decided by US President Eisenhower that the first men in space would need to have amongst other things a "Bachelor's degree or the equivalent". Although history chose some great men it judged that one was " not qualified" to go to space purely on his education.

This man, Chuck Yeager.

Did he need the " Bachelor's Degree"? I think we all know the answer to that one!!!

[foghorn]

J-Heller,

BTW 'Gorky' has been on the forum for quite a while, under different usernames. Most notoriously as 'Ronchonner'.

I'd noticed the similarity too. I was even waiting for Ronchonner's Poodle to reappear also....

[Bemused]

Riddler -

...Chuck didn't need a degree, because the american group researching jets proposed an exchange of ideas with the british group who were technologically advanced.

Once the yankee scoundrels had visited the brit camp and pilfered all their secrets, they then claimed it a security risk to share their info with the brits. I think you learn such underhand tactics in the university of life...!!

[Little Miss]

I don t want to put a spanner in the works but I went to university hated the life there. The immature attitude and the chance of still not getting a job when you re finished. People are different and if we all did the same thing eg uni, job we didn t want to be in then we would be bored. I have always wanted to be a pilot. I first told everyone when I was 5 years old and was laughed at as I was a girl. Now I think its a choice, and not a condition to go to uni. I learnt nothing in life experience except to be scared of other human beings.
I went to train at a flying school and I learnt more there than I did anywhere. I grew up. You can t act like a child whilst flying because if you do you won t get very far. Life experience isn t about age its about living. You can be 20 and lived away from home for years, or 35 and still living with mum and dad. But living with family doesn t mean you haven t lived. Nature has a funny way of giving life experience from the most unexpected places. I think some people should realise that we re different and take different roads to get to the same goals. As one post stated you go to uni to study for a specified subject so why go and train to be a lawyer,doctor,archaeologist or teacher if you want to fly. People go back to uni at 50 so you can always start again. It s good to have another string to your bow but if that string is going to be useless and you don t enjoy it why use the money and time that you have. You take up a place for someone else at uni who could need it. I would be upset if someone trained to be a pilot and had no intention of flying! We all want the same thing so why are we all fighting?

[Chaffers]

We aint fighting Little Miss but it is an interesting discussion. Anyone can troll a forum by dismissing out of hand one option or another.
For the record I hated Uni too, living in a damp house in a miserable cold city with 5 scrounging drugged up media studies bums wasn't really for me, though I often wonder how I would have fared in Aeronautical Engineering had I gone to a different uni (one that didnt fail IMechE accreditation without telling us would have been nice).
Aberstwyth on the other hand was incomparable, and I spent a very happy 4.5 years there. Its not a question of University good/bad but finding the right course in the right place. Either that or working for a living whilst building your hours.

I guess the real difference is whether you can wait to fufil your dream, personally I saw that the airlines were, if anything, reluctant to take on people with my level of maturity (at the time) so I took the degree path. If you're committed enough, and mature enough at 18 then go for it, if not then get pissed, laid and enlightened (only ever in that order) for a few years.