Air New Zealand Direct Entry FO A320

[HOOROO]

Anybody got the good oil on this little rumour that has been going around the last couple of weeks?

[Ollie Onion]

And as a bonus, Jetstar NZ is straining at the seams with a lack of FO's due to a few heading to the desert and a lack of recent recruitment. If Air NZ were to take a quick fire 10-15 FO's out of Jetstar NZ they would be in big poo!

[c100driver]

It depends how you look at it, not as a direct entry but as a directed pilot.

If no SO bids for a FO slot on the A320 then the company will be obliged to direct in reverse order of seniority.

Technically they will employ you as an SO then being the most junor on the list if no one above you has a valid bid you will get directed to the A320 as an FO.

[Big Balls]

I don't see what the big deal is. New hires will be offered 320 F/O positions. They will not direct anyone. Same thing happened with the 733, only difference now is a higher starting salary.

[c100driver]

No the contract does not allow that. Direction must be done in reverse order of seniority or the SO's can all apply for bypass pay (if they have a valid bid).

The B733 was an entry position along with the SO positions in the current contract and attracted the same pay rate.

[Big Balls]

Didn't realise the contract didn't allow for it. Save me trawling thru it any chance you could post the clause number??

[c100driver]

Section 12 Promotion in Rank.

All promotions in rank must be advertised and appointed from the Seniority list. If there are no applicants then they can direct reverse order.

If the are not on the list they cannot be appointed/directed.

It is just semantics I know but they must be on the list before being offered/directed to a promotion. It will be interesting to see if subtle pressure is used to get new hires to accept an A320 position and how ALPA/FEDs react to that.

The real answer is to make the A320 FO position more attractive in the current contract negotiations.

[Aeolus2000BC]

If an S/O does not want to apply for a F/Os position, then it seems the HR dept has recruited the WRONG individual for a PILOT. If the S/O wants to stay an S/O then they are NOT pilots ? - perhaps mere flight deck secretaries?

Anywhere else in the world - except perhaps in that other 'Down under' place,
any S/O would jump at a F/Os posn.

Is this phenomenon widespread throughout all levels of 'Down under' aviation or just restricted to the two Gods of Aviation?

[VHFRT]

Contrary to popular belief, this career is generally a way to pay the bills and maintain the best possible work/life balance.

If one gets more time at home on equal or more money as an SO, then common sense would tell them to stay in that position.

The problem is the airlines aren't appropriately directing wages and abusing short haul crew by working them to the point of cronic fatigue.

This comes from someone who bid from the right seat to the back seat in the "other downunder". Nothing to do with the airline "recruiting the wrong person", everything to do with the airline not distributing workloads.

[cavemanzk]

If an S/O does not want to apply for a F/Os position, then it seems the HR dept has recruited the WRONG individual for a PILOT. If the S/O wants to stay an S/O then they are NOT pilots ? - perhaps mere flight deck secretaries?


F/O on an A320 wouldn't be that great, and the workload is much more of an S/O on an 777/787.

A320 they can put on an 12hour Domestic shift, going up/down the country in at times pretty bad weather doing 6 takeoffs/landings.

S/O you know that you've got 1 sector on most shifts, you get to over night somewhere and have an pretty stable work week.

A320's you're more an 9-5 on an shift.

[shallow gene pool]

A320 they can put on an 12hour Domestic shift, going up/down the country in at times pretty bad weather doing 6 takeoffs/landings.

Ahh not on the Air NZ CEA there cavemanzk, maybe you're talking about Jetstar!

[Metro man]

An old interview question was "Which would you rather be, a B747 F/O or a B737 Captain ? Airlines are looking for Captains, not career first officers when they recruit.

Which pilot is more promotable/employable, someone with lots of short sectors in bad weather as flying pilot, or someone with a few 14 hour sectors in the jumpseat filling out the flight plan ?

[belowMDA]

I'll say this much, I'd much rather have some time on the 320 in the RHS rather than going into a command on the thing with no experience on it. To each their own, but I reckon it's not all bad on the 320 and folks could be doing themselves a disservice in the long run by avoiding it. The other thing is why the heck would you want to do 11 years in the middle seat before a chance of an upgrade to a window seat long haul?

As to the rumour, yes there could be entry direct onto the bus sometime this year.

[Cloud Cutter]

Contrary to popular belief, this career is generally a way to pay the bills and maintain the best possible work/life balance.

VHFRT, nail on the head. In this case, it's also about the ability to commute. This was a completely predictable situation when Air NZ decided to close regional turboprop bases. If someone was previously content to remain a turboprop Captain so they could live where they wanted, they're unlikely to have an issue remaining a S/O for the same reason. Also, you'd be far better off financially living outside of the big smoke (except maybe in Queenstown) on a S/O salary, especially now the gap has been narrowed.

At the end of the day, it's a personal choice, and nobody else's business how people bid!

[waterbottle]

Shallow gene pool - done plenty of duties approaching 14 hours lately with the pax at the end. Admittedly not 12 hours, but the bulk of my duties are towards the 11 hour limit.

Belowmda - although it sounds like it's worse in the FO rank plenty of guys aren't taking up Bus commands, so their first command is on the Boeing that they've sat in their whole career.

Personally I won't leave the Bus because I make more money here. That said I'm knackered and filing plenty of fatigue reports and taking sick leave because I'm run down and getting sick.

It might be shocking to some but not everyone LOVES being on a plane. I'm not passionate about it, but I'm well qualified and I do a good job, but it is only a job. I don't get any more satisfaction out of being a Bus FO than being an SO. For me it's about money so I'm on the Bus. For others quality of life is more important so they stay as SOs. Anyone who doesn't understand that probably isn't in ANZ and therefore doesn't understand our progression/seniority system/bidding etc.

[fly real fast]

Agree with your posts waterbottle & Cloud cutter. Each to their own. Personally, what's important to me is my work/life balance, living in the regions & being home and watching my young family grow up is important to me. I'm an S/O and have been for a rather long time. Sure I love my job, not just the flying but more so the time off it gives me. The pay (after a lengthy stand-off with the company) is adequate & not too far behind 320FO pay.

It'd be interesting to see what ALPA has to say about Direct entry 320 positions.

[The Bunglerat]

An old interview question was "Which would you rather be, a B747 F/O or a B737 Captain ? Airlines are looking for Captains, not career first officers when they recruit.

As someone who never intended to be a career FO when starting out, the way things are looking at my place of employment right now (aside from the fact that command opportunities are few & far between anyway), a move from the right-hand seat of my widebody to the left-hand seat of the narrowbody I'm currently most eligible for, would equate to only a fractional pay increase - one in which I can easily close the gap with a bit of overtime on my current type - & a truckload increase in workload with a corresponding deterioration in lifestyle.

Would I like to retire in the left-hand seat? Absolutely. As I said, it was never my intention to be a career FO when starting out, but I'm not that desperate to swap seats if it's at the expense of lifestyle. When I'm lying on my deathbed, I sure as hell won't be wishing I'd spent more time flying aeroplanes. And for any of the young guns at my workplace who are desperate to climb the greasy pole at any cost, they're welcome to do so. I'm not one of them - & if management think I'm really that desperate to add another stripe to those epaulettes without providing any significant financial or lifestyle incentive to accompany it - they are sadly mistaken. I'm all for professional development & career advancement, but 'advancement' is the operative word here, as in 'moving forward' in all aspects of career fulfilment, not just rank. In the end, flying aeroplanes is just something I do - not who I am. This notion is lost on too many people.

[waterbottle]

Hear hear bunglerat! Well said.

Fly real fast - I think both unions have the same concerns. I think realistically you can't stop it. If guys don't want the job then with our bidding system this is the result. As someone previously pointed out the company can get around it pretty easily. The main issue I have is that the course is substandard for experienced guys and not designed for new hires. Expecting a new hire to do the current course as elk as having to learn the company manuals and way of business is too much to ask. I would naively hope for a large increase in sim time for new guys, but we all know that won't happen.

[Cloud Cutter]

I would naively hope for a large increase in sim time for new guys, but we all know that won't happen.

You might be surprised. This is what they've done for the one or two direct entries onto the bus previously.

[belowMDA]

I can tell you a 320 course for a new hire will most definitely not be the same as for those that already have jet experience with the company. I'm pretty sure this is already being designed.

[Popgun]

Post of the Week, Bunglerat.

In this game, especially in such a micro-sized local industry, career advancement and development opportunities and choices are unlike most other professions.

You only have to look at the overwhelming numbers of QF FOs who returned to the Mother Ship after a relatively over-worked, under-paid stint in the left seat at JQ.

PG

[mattyj]

HR hired the wrong person if the person won't take a promotion from S/O to F/O!?!

You give HR too much credit sir, they are merely a placement system for the terminally mediocre since the government privatised NZ Rail

[waren9]

taking promotion if its there is compulsory?

[Gate_15L]

Why is it the S/O's at fault if they don't want a right hand seat?

Obviously the position isn't attractive. Its up to the company to make it attractive, whether that be by lifestyle or pay.

Supply and demand, nothing else to it....

[Daylight Robbery]

Anyone post the current conditions for direct entry A320? Rough pluck on incentive pay/ DTA etc. Taa

[waterbottle]

Don't mean to be rude, but please don't post salary/incentive etc on here. Speak to someone privately but please don't put it on here for the world to see.

[Sqwark2000]

I'm new to the SO role, and I'm in no hurry to go back to domestic flying on the bus. Currently I go to work for 3-4 days, fly 2 sectors and have anything from 3-12 days off between duties.

Quite a few Bus TOD's can be 4 days as well, except they'll do 5 sectors domestic into an overnight, a regional 2 sectors into another overnight, the same the 3rd day into yet another overnight port, and then a 3-5 sector domestic day to finish. As many as 14 sectors in 4 days, a couple of days off and then back into it.

The boys are getting flogged and it's no wonder there's not a huge queue to take a FO slot.

Another couple of rumours is extra airframes for the long haul fleets, 2-3 777's are supposedly being sought, and there's 6 further options on the 787 that might be firmed up in the near future. Given that, plus 130+ pilots turning 65 in the next 5yrs, time to a wide body FO slot maybe considerably less than current. So, the ability to have a decent work/lifestyle balance (based on current standards) for 4/5/6 yrs might be preferable to jumping on the Bus early for extra $$$.

[The Cassidy Kid]

Some guys started this week, including some externals. 2 of which are going to the bus, 1 chc domeciled. Not sure, but I think they were employed as 777 SO, then directed to the a320 before the 777 course starts. Both agreed to it beforehand though. I think it was offered to all of them.