PDA

View Full Version : AA206 MIA-MXP Diverted to CYYT: Reports of pax injured due to turbulence


AJW709
25th Jan 2016, 01:23
Local media here in YYT reporting that an AA 767 from MIA to MXP encountered turbulence and diverted here with injured pax. Three removed on backboards, upto 6 injured. Reports on twitter say that 2 of the injured were FA's.


Flight diverted to St. John?s; injuries reported - Local - The Telegram (http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2016-01-24/article-4414081/Flight-diverted-to-St.-John%26rsquo%3Bs%3B-injuries-reported/1)

Airbubba
25th Jan 2016, 03:18
They discussed going to Gander if the runway conditions weren't favorable at St. John's. They got a 'good' braking action report from a Jazz RJ. ATC asked about injuries and they didn't have numbers but said the most serious was a flight attendant who was bleeding.

ILS to 11, turn around and back taxi on the runway (turn around must be at the Bravo fillet I would guess), runway 16 to gate 1.

Flight track here:

American Airlines (AA) #206 ? 24-Jan-2016 ? KMIA - CYYT ? FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL206/history/20160124/2000Z/KMIA/CYYT)

More in this news story:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/american-airlines-flight-diverted-st-johns-1.3418056

Johno8
25th Jan 2016, 10:45
Article says the seatbelt light was illuminated at the time. So the passengers injured were not complying? Amazes me how many people ignore that light. Stupid stupid.

Ian W
25th Jan 2016, 11:27
Article says the seatbelt light was illuminated at the time. So the passengers injured were not complying? Amazes me how many people ignore that light. Stupid stupid.

It does not amaze me at all that people ignore the seatbelt light. Many many transatlantic flights where the light goes on then is not extinguished despite no turbulence _for hours_ even full meal service continues and flight attendants do not stop people going to the lavatories. So it has become meaningless. If the seatbelt light was switched off when there was no turbulence and only illuminated when there was turbulence or a real risk of it, then it would be obeyed more. Continually 'crying wolf' has the effect of devaluing the warning.

From the position it appears that the flight was in the remnants of the 'winter storm' Jonas.

The Ancient Geek
25th Jan 2016, 12:47
That really is nonsense. Seat belts should be fastened at all times unless the passenger is actually walking to the toilet.
Clear air turbulence can happen without warning anywhere and anytime.

These are the same idiots who refuse to wear seat belts in a car.

AJW709
25th Jan 2016, 12:51
The CBC story linked in post #2 has a short video clip that seems to be filmed onboard. Also reports that 3 Flight Attendants were amongst the injured. Seat Belt sign on but meal service (perhaps without hot fluids) continuing?

Sqwak7700
25th Jan 2016, 14:01
It's a human factors problem. The problem is that the signage does not match the words. As a supposed human factors educated industry, it is pretty embarrassing really.

All seat belts fastened signs should really be "safe to leave your seat" signs. Seat belts should be mandatory at all times. When the sign is on you can't leave your seat. When it is off, then you might stand up to use the lav or stretch your legs.

But currently we are telling people one thing and showing them another. Unfortunately, airlines don't do anything if it costs even 1/100th of a penny. So this needs to be regulation driven.

Phantom Driver
25th Jan 2016, 14:14
Sorry, have to go with Ian W on this one. Remember that oldie -"one pilot's light chop is another's severe turbulence". As he points out, too many times sitting there with the seat belt sign on for hours in "severe smooth", with said sign being ignored by all and sundry, including the FA's.

I used to brief the crew-"when that sign is on, then you had better pay attention...."

(p.s as I recall, that "seat belts sign on permanently" stuff used to be a function of good ol' USA legal action phobia- (you know, like the car whiplash scams), "the Captain didn't have the seat belt sign on in turbulence; I broke my leg; pay me a million dollars".

Hopefully those days are gone. I believe just about everybody now makes the PA "keep belts fastened at all times when seated, even with the signs off, in case of unexpected turbulence". But as we all know, this more often than not falls on deaf ears...

ExXB
25th Jan 2016, 15:10
Accidents on international flights are covered by the Montreal Convention 1999 or the Warsaw Convention.

Airlines 'strict' liability is limited. Few sharks will waste their time challenging the Conventions' terms. It's too much like hard work. And it seldom works.

tdracer
25th Jan 2016, 15:28
It does not amaze me at all that people ignore the seatbelt light. Many many transatlantic flights where the light goes on then is not extinguished despite no turbulence _for hours_ even full meal service continues and flight attendants do not stop people going to the lavatories. So it has become meaningless. If the seatbelt light was switched off when there was no turbulence and only illuminated when there was turbulence or a real risk of it, then it would be obeyed more. Continually 'crying wolf' has the effect of devaluing the warning.

This is a common problem with US based airlines - it's rare that the seatbelt sign is extinguished prior to reaching cruise altitude regardless of any turbulence, and the first time there is the slightest bump it'll come back on and stay on for at least 30 minutes, then come back on at top of descent. I blame the "sue somebody" mentality so prevalent in the US. :ugh:

While I always keep my belt fastened while seated, lav use can become urgent. I take my lead from the FA - if I really need to go, and the FA are up and around, I'll make a quick trip to the lav. If anything, I'll just get a knowing nod from the FA.

Chronic Snoozer
25th Jan 2016, 16:36
Perhaps its time to change the seat belt sign on all airliners to something more indicative of the risk of not belting up. Maybe a flashing picture of man with two black eyes and a neckbrace, or an ambulance backing up to the aircraft stairs. Or an even simpler UPPER CASE sign 'BELT UP NOW'. Combined with a claxon and background soundtrack of moaning, injured passengers, that should scare everyone enough. There could even be a simple sensor that provides an indication of which passengers are not using their seatbelts allowing faster refusal of compensation claims.

ExXB
25th Jan 2016, 16:53
Perhaps on a domestic US flight but passenger stupidity doesn't allow an airline to avoid liability on an international flight.

Slow and curious
25th Jan 2016, 17:37
Why not have them displayed in two colours?
Green or red.

viking767
25th Jan 2016, 17:53
More pilots would cycle the seatbelt sign according to ride conditions if the annoying PA announcement wouldn't automatically come on every time the seatbelt sign is turned on.

oicur12.again
25th Jan 2016, 17:57
"Continually 'crying wolf' has the effect of devaluing the warning"

Ian is spot on.

Another exanple of how this industry is not managed properly.

Seat belt sign paranoia has completely undermined the entire reason for it being there.

FlightlessParrot
25th Jan 2016, 19:01
Nervous pax point of view: I always have my seat belt fastened, quite tightly actually, except when actually leaving my seat. The annoyance with permanently-on signs is that it does NOT just mean "Fasten Your Seatbelt": it also means "Do Not Leave Your Seat," even if you have been keeping up your hydration on a ten-hour flight.

Mr Optimistic
25th Jan 2016, 19:17
How about you stop calling your customers stupid? I am a regular customer, keep my seat belt fastened but do have to go to the toilet every now and again. Ian W is right. So all you people who think you are smarter than me please put your hands up.

evansb
25th Jan 2016, 19:58
This thread has comments nearly identical as the one started on Jan.5 regarding an Air Canada Boeing 777 diverting to CYYC due to severe turbulence. The media reports and passenger comments are also predictably similar..

Any current research being done on CAT (Clear Air Turbulence)?

Northwest's (Northwest Orient Airlines) meteorologists, led by Dan Sowa, pioneered the first clear-air turbulence forecasting system in 1957, important since the airline flew many northern routes over turbulence-prone mountain areas. Northwest remained a leader in turbulence prediction, providing TPAWS (turbulence prediction and warning services) to other airlines.

A strong predictor of CAT is a sudden rise of OAT, (outside air temperature). Flying near the warm sector of the jet stream core also counts for plenty.. I think they experimented with a warning system that would alert pilots if the OAT rose rapidly while in cruise above a predetermined flight level. Whether the warning would be enough time for the pilot to react and the passengers and aircrew to buckle-in remains a question.

llondel
25th Jan 2016, 20:07
I find that when the flight deck announces over the PA "Cabin crew take your seats now" it tends to mean the roller coaster is about to start. Not heard it often, but more than once.

AR1
25th Jan 2016, 20:19
Clunk Click, every trip used to be my motto. I still do it, I just don't use the motto.

Johno8
25th Jan 2016, 21:12
Does the truth hurt you?? If you need to use the washroom and the seatbelt sign is lit, you take your chances either trying to hold it in or to go to the washroom. But I'll bet many just get up when they don't need to go that bad or even worse, ignore the seatbelt light and not buckle up. For those people, I say stupid! Just like obeying a traffic light, that seatbelt light is there for your safety and those around you.

jack11111
25th Jan 2016, 21:20
I'm old enough to remember the "No Smoking" sign turned off at first flap retraction and "Fasten seat belt" sign off upon contacting Center.

evansb
25th Jan 2016, 21:23
Polar Jet Stream Cross-section: (note 11 km is aprox FL360)
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/CAT.jpg

Ian W
26th Jan 2016, 15:01
That really is nonsense. Seat belts should be fastened at all times unless the passenger is actually walking to the toilet.
Clear air turbulence can happen without warning anywhere and anytime.

These are the same idiots who refuse to wear seat belts in a car.

Well the pax injured all at the back I think that is what they were doing. Around 4 hours into the flight meal service finished carts being put away; the pax were either in or waiting for the lav after the meal service had finished. The FA's were probably stowing the carts. Back of the aircraft is always where the worse G moments will be in turbulence.

If you look in the lavs when the seatbelt light comes up the lav light normally says something like 'return to your seat' - pax are not going to do that when they got up and walked to the lav in the first place.

If seatbelt sign is on it means don't even go to the lav it is too dangerous and same for FA's with hot drinks and carts - they should be seated and carts away too. If it is NOT too dangerous then the seat belt light should be off.

DaveReidUK
26th Jan 2016, 15:35
If seatbelt sign is on it means don't even go to the lav it is too dangerous and same for FA's with hot drinks and carts - they should be seated and carts away too. If it is NOT too dangerous then the seat belt light should be off.

Are you saying that there should be no differentiation between how the seat belt signs apply to pax and F/As? How would that work?

oicur12.again
26th Jan 2016, 16:28
"Are you saying that there should be no differentiation between how the seat belt signs apply to pax and F/As?"

Do FA's undergo special "walking in turbulence" training?

DaveReidUK
26th Jan 2016, 17:46
Do FA's undergo special "walking in turbulence" training?

I didn't say that. :ugh:

My question was about the previous poster's suggestion that F/As should be seated whenever the seatbelt sign is on (ie not just when there's a "Cabin crew take your seats now" annunciation).

Views on how that would work (or not) welcomed.

gcal
26th Jan 2016, 18:06
I worked for AA for 15 years (ending in about 2003) and it was common practice to keep the seat belt sign on for the entire duration of a flight.
It was a delight to return to flying in Europe where the sign was put on as and when needed!

If you bombard people with information it will, sooner or later, become utterly disregarded.

tdracer
26th Jan 2016, 18:38
There is a difference in the acceptable risk (and liability) between the FA (employees) and passengers (customers).
That's the same reason that when you take your car into the repair shop, you're generally not allowed in the service area unless escorted.

gcal
27th Jan 2016, 08:08
@tdracer

That is it exactly.

ExXB
27th Jan 2016, 09:35
In the EU+ MC99 applies to all flights including domestic flights in Member States.

For international flights to/from US MC99 also applies (perhaps with a few minor exceptions where Warsaw continues to apply). Domestic US flights are subject to US laws.

Phileas Fogg
27th Jan 2016, 11:08
How are F/A's supposed to do a through the cabin check that all punters are belted in if the F/A's are belted in themselves?

Do FA's undergo special "walking in turbulence" training?

I've known some "special training" in Ye Olde Kings Head in Santa Monica of salting their beer to stop them burping during flight ..... but no walking in turbulence training I'm afraid :)

Gordomac
27th Jan 2016, 14:41
Jack 111 ; Im a bit older than you but it was; with belt sign in auto, no smoking went off at gear retracted. Belts went off at flaps up (or" in" if you were really sad). Reverse happened for descent/ approach. We were all so highly paid in those days, we demanded full manual control over this vital issue and the auto position was never used. Didn't stop our cabin crew from over-riding this challenging Command Decision by permitting punters to visit the loo, regardless. Being a fully qualified amateur lawyer, I announced, on the PA, that ignoring seat/belt signs was, in fact, ignoring a lawful command and liable to litigation. Head of cabin crew told me I got lots of finger signs as people swept passed the FD door into the forward loo. Villains !

Ian W
27th Jan 2016, 15:49
Are you saying that there should be no differentiation between how the seat belt signs apply to pax and F/As? How would that work?

If you read my original post I said that if the FAs continue meal/trolley service with hot drinks being served then the seatbelt light is obviously superfluous. If the FAs are merely doing a check that all belts are fastened then returning to their stations to strap in, then the seatbelt sign is likely to be real.

The more usual case is that the seatbelt light goes on and 3 hours later after a full meal service with hot drinks being passed over passengers, it is still on. Pax have every right to consider that it is meaningless. Those with 2 hour bladders will wait for the final trolley to pass and then visit the lavs and none of the FA's will stop them to tell them to return to their seats because the FA's don't believe the seatbelt light either.

enola-gay
27th Jan 2016, 18:20
Ian W

You are the only person who speaks sense on this seat belt topic.

The default position on any aircraft in flight is that pax are seated and belted, just like in an automobile. That is precautionary safety and it is never sufficiently policed in either transport mode. Lack of policing of the default is the root problem. Cabin crew the same when not carrying out work duties (but of course they all mill around in the servery, chatting and posing, no?)

If the seat belt sign is illuminated by the flight deck, that ought to indicate an escalation of hazard that only the flight deck is aware of, such as take-off, landing, turbulence ahead, technical problem, need to divert or a flight security issue. The seat belt sign ought to be replaced with a hazard warning to avoid doubt...."WARNING-SIT DOWN AND BELT UP"

It ought to apply to everyone, including the cabin crew, who should stow trolleys and sit down, and lav pax do the same. The default position of everyone belted up is then restored.

The experience of trillions of pax across the world over decades, is that the flight deck leaves the seat belt illuminated during meal service, sometimes for the whole journey, mostly with no turbulence, and no one believes it anymore.

That is not the fault of unruly pax, it is the fault of flight deck indolence across the industry.

One explanation I was given is that cabin crew are automatically insured as employees and pax are not insured if they leave their seat with the light on. Can anyone corroborate that?

Phileas Fogg
28th Jan 2016, 03:56
I recall once when I was travelling with Ukraine International and on a freebie business class upgrade.

We'd experienced some turbulence during which the seat belt sign went on, the turbulence had long since passed however the flight crew had clearly neglected to switch the sign off whilst I had been tucking in to the business class liquid refreshments and I needed to go to the toilet.

I called the F/A across, explained my predicament, she told me I could go until I pointed out to her that the sign was still on, she nipped in to the flight deck and problem solved.

Now pax need to frequent the toilet(s) throughout any flight and if the seat belt sign is permanently on, and we are to ignore it to use the toilet, then how are we to know when it is on for the sake of being on and when it is on for 'real'?

And, unless I'm doing something in particular, I always sit there with my seat belt loosely fastened.

Yaw String
28th Jan 2016, 11:41
For all the guys and gals who've been successfully doing this job,for the past 20 plus years,..Isn't it amazing how this topic still continues to bring up widely varying opinions....
Come on...common sense will guide you home,every time.

Ps.still...can't convince Mrs String to stay strapped in after that sign is switched off....maybe because she is from a certain country in South America..lol.:ugh::ugh:

edmundronald
28th Jan 2016, 11:53
What is the official bladder time?

Edmund