Red Arrows issue warning after training session stopped by fans taking photos

[Lyneham Lad]

On today's online Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/12108034/Red-Arrows-issue-warning-after-training-session-stopped-by-fans-taking-photos.html):-

A message on their Facebook page said people were standing on the runway, endangering themselves and others.
It said: "We are very honoured that so many people enjoy coming to RAF Scampton to watch the Red Arrows train and we do truly enjoy seeing the photographs that are taken every day. But it has come to the point where people are taking unnecessary risks to get those photographs. On Friday, air traffic control had to stop our pilots performing circuits as there were people on the centreline of each runway, directly under the flight paths of the aircraft taking off and landing. By doing so, people are endangering themselves and others and ATC had no choice but to stop us, thereby curtailing crucial training for our pilots."

Actually on the runway??? If so, how on earth did they get there? Or standing in the undershoot outside the airfield boundary?

[NutLoose]

What a load of over the top bollox.... go tell that to the people living under the approach to Heathrow, Gatwick etc etc, please move out of your house as we are flying today.. :E

[Valiantone]

Nutloose

I think what they mean is that they are doing what the great unwashed did on the A15 at Waddington during the airshows. ie Standing right under the fence on approach at the opposite end from the A15

As a half Lincolnshire native, and having been to both ends of the base I can see where the problem is. But I don't think its so much the regular spotter/photographers, more likely its the none regulars who are not so wise..... Or rather are lacking in the having a clue dept:E

The farmer at the A15 end is probably fed up as well due to some folk trampling his crops in the summer months.

V1

[7of9]

I've seen people standing under the approach at both ends of the runways outside the boundaries at RAF Coningsby, Lossiemouth Waddington & Leakenheath to get thier photos, they are much nearer the runway thresholds at these bases than you can get at Scampton, never seen a missed approach or a suspension of flying from these bases due to enthusiasts on the runway centreline outside the boundaries!
If there is an issue with people on private land outside Scampton then that is up to locals to deal with it, but bit ott missed approach on that reason!

[Martin the Martian]

These days there is a by-law that prevents public access to the field at the 27 end of Yeovilton's runway around airshow weekend, but when I last went there, about five or six years ago, there were a good many enthusiasts happily taking photos until the local constabulary arrived. Suddenly everybody was moved back to the other side of the public footpath that runs through the field, and the police remained to enforce it.

While they were stopping anyone else it was okay for them to stand directly under the centreline and take snaps with their camera phones of aircraft on finals. Anyone else who approached was immediately sent back to the naughty step. To this day I am still not sure how they would survive an F-16 dropping on top of them in a way that none of the rest of us would.

[uffington sb]

Martin.

Or a C-160!!!
Plane spotting enthusiasts come within inches of death after military aircraft misses runway | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2253449/Plane-spotting-enthusiasts-come-inches-death-military-aircraft-misses-runway.html)

[Wensleydale]

Nutty:
"What a load of over the top bollox"


Except when the Nimrod AEW dragged its 150ft trailing wire aerial across the A15 a good few years ago at Waddington, and the Vulcan Tanker that did the same a couple of years earlier (Hope the photo shows). I suppose that it is fine for the spotters to take their risks, but they have little consideration for the aircrew in the aircraft that hits them!


https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12540794_662959633846320_5041690770168837847_n.jpg?oh=6f96ae 976384504cfef41a7289f96c26&oe=5741295C

[mmitch]

Some of them will put up ladders so they can be taller than the fencing...
mmitch.

[BEagle]

The 'Russian spy' would often park on the old part of Ermine Street next to Scampton to watch the comings and going. Actually, he was just some innocent chap who liked watching aircraft whilst having his lunch, but was always known as the spy!

At Brize, spotters would often stand right next to the fence on the RW centreline. Fortunately, part of VC10 conversion training was a late go-around simulating action taken for a runway incursion - timed to perfection, an asymmetric 3-engine go-around with full power would mean that much noise, smoke and fury would greet the :8s just as we crossed the fence advertising the price of freedom.....:E

[NutLoose]

Then there were the civi police at Brize that phoned us up several days after the event to tell us they had caught some chap taking potshots at the VC10's on finals with his air rifle and would it be of any interest to us.. :ugh:

They coudn't even be time specific and it resulted in us checking the whole fleet, some of which were down route :ugh:


Except it was neither of them Wenslydale, but a Hawk, dragging nothing but the pilot through the air.

So come WW3 when we launch our unarmed submarines, deploy out aircraftless Carriers, all the Russians need to do is deploy a few dozen spotters onto the thresholds and the RAF will also cease to operate also... God bless the Army... unless they lose their ammo under Health and Safety Left wing lunacy.

[Dominator2]

Sounds as though someone is being a bit precious.

If the public are off the airfield it is up to the pilot not ATC to decide whether to continue the approach. I assume that the Reds do not often land short of the runway, so the risk is low.

If these people choose to ignore clear signs stating the potential danger, it is their decision. Clearly, if their actions distract the pilot, an overshoot should be initiated.

I do remember the good old days at Valley when ATC would request one of the 3 Sqn Hunters to move the spotters from the fence or rock outcrop on the RW14 approach. With students doing PFLs and 1in1s the undershoot was definitely not a safe place to be!

[Danny42C]

Dominator2,

My Post (p.188 #3753 on "Pilot's Brevet").....Great Minds...?
...Half way round, something strikes me as odd. Prewar, there had been a small road running close to that side of the boundary. The runway was extended during the war, a section of the road was closed off, and had been incorporated into the new taxiway. Post war, the road had been reinstated, some 200 ft of the runway had been cut off with an angle-iron and wire fence across. (The useless stub of runway and its verges were a popular picnic spot for the locals; there they could watch the flying as they scoffed their sandwiches..
Perhaps I should have added that, in those rather more robust days (1951), that when the goofers were getting hard up against the fence, and on the centreline, ATC would ask anyone in circuit to "shift 'em !" (we complied with the greatest of pleasure).

Couldn't do that now. Oh dear, no.

Danny42C

,

[NutLoose]

If the public are off the airfield it is up to the pilot not ATC to decide whether to continue the approach. I assume that the Reds do not often land short of the runway, so the risk is low.


Actually you'd probably be more in danger standing in ATC's carpark next to the tower.. :E


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/11/article-1054687-029DDBD200000578-575_468x351_popup.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1054687/Pictured-The-dramatic-scene-Red-Arrows-Hawk-jet-crash-landed-smashed-RAF-base.html

[Basil]

Recollect calibrating the ILS at an RAFG station.
On one of our runs we noted that a group of picnickers had ensconced themselves by the perimeter right under the approach.
For the next approach someone filled a washbasin and, on cue, pulled the plug.
The picnickers clearly put two and two together and got a #1 because, on the next run, they were gone.
What rotters bored RAF crew can be :}

[AGS Man]

I think one consideration may be the length of the overshoot area in the event of a high speed barrier engagement. The eastern end is quite short and I,m not sure if the Mk 12 Barrier would stop it before the fence.

[The Oberon]

A few months ago there was a thread about the future of the Waddington airshow. One of the alternatives mentioned was Scampton and, being a Scampton village resident, I posted about it's unsuitability and the number of naughty areas on the West side. There is a perfectly adequate view point at the junction of the B1398 and the A1500 but this is not good enough for some people. A couple of hundred yards from the view point there is a farm track leading to the airfield perimeter fence and in the past, some people would drive up this track, park, and stand at the fence which put them on the approach and after the start of the lights. This track was gated, but what happens now is that these same loons half park on the grass verge, climb over the gate and stand by the fence. If anything, this is worse as the half parking restricts other traffic on the B1398.


Red Arrows precious? maybe, because the main attraction last Friday was a Spitfire, presumably BBMF, which was in circuit for most of the day, most welcome and nice to see.


Excuse the thread drift, but the Spitfire was still in circuit at dusk and in half light conditions, any reason for this? It just seems a bit of a risk to me.

[rjtjrt]

The anti spotter vitriol and stories of how the skygods would conspire to punish them is a sad reflection on some people.
I always feel I have been lucky to have been given the opportunities I have had.
Not everyone has had the opportunity to get an education such that they could join the service as aircrew, or underake civilian pilot training. Many would have loved to have the life many here have had, and just want to look at aircraft out of fascination for something we have.
I realise those here have had to make considerable individual effort in addition to luck, and some have had little opportunity other than their own effort, but most of us have also had opportunities denied to some others. Being forced by circumstance outside your control to leave school early and work in a more mundane job when you have dreamed of flying does happen.
I cringe a bit when people lambast annoraks or spotters in a smug way.

[Pontius Navigator]

Spotters are not lambasted for fun.

Runway approach lights used to be mounted on stout telegraph poles. Boundary fences were also robust. Today we have frangible approach lights and the boundary fences at the thresholds are similarly weakened as landing short or over running, while rare, is always a risk.

Man in white van or on a ladder creates an additional hazard to life and limb should the aircraft have a mishap. It is not just directly on the threshold either but in a fan from the touchdown point.

[rjtjrt]

I agree, if a safety hazard they should be firmly but politely moved.

[SilsoeSid]

I think that this 'having a go at the public', signals a beginning to the end.
Will questioning their purpose in this day and age have a bit more oomph, especially with this 'get orf moi land' attitude?

RAF Red Arrows - FAQs (http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/faqs.cfm)
What is the purpose of the Red Arrows?

The official name of the Team is the ‘Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team’, commonly known as the ‘Red Arrows’. The Red Arrows are a small part of a large organisation; the Royal Air Force, much of which is engaged in operations overseas defending UK interests and making the world a safer place.

The Red Arrows are the public face of the Royal Air Force and are acknowledged as one of the world’s premier aerobatic teams. Within the UK, the Red Arrows exist to demonstrate the professional excellence of the Royal Air Force and promote recruitment to the Royal Air Force. The Red Arrows have inspired a significant number of people to join the Royal Air Force, both as officers and airmen in all trades, not just pilots!

The Team supports wider British interests overseas by contributing to Defence Diplomacy efforts and promoting British industry. The Hawk aircraft flown by the Team and most of its components are all British made. During international tours the Red Arrows demonstrate both British skill and British technology to millions of people.

The Red Arrows also help more than 500 UK charities every year - contributing many thousands of pounds to a wide variety of important causes.


Seen at RAF Scampton golf course;

http://www.indymedia.ie/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/may2006/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_golf.jpg

[ExRAFRadar]

Recollect calibrating the ILS at an RAFG station.
On one of our runs we noted that a group of picnickers had ensconced themselves by the perimeter right under the approach.
For the next approach someone filled a washbasin and, on cue, pulled the plug.
The picnickers clearly put two and two together and got a #1 because, on the next run, they were gone.
What rotters bored RAF crew can beOkay I'll play devil's advocate.

Bit confused, were the picnickers in the boundary fence or outside?

I am assuming outside, in which case what right did you have to do what you did? If inside I would suggest you had a bigger problem than a few sandwich munchers sat at the end of a runway.

Still bags of fun, High Jinks from the rotters I suppose?

Edited to add: You had a washbasin on the aircraft? WTF were you flying?
Or have I completely missed something?

[Pontius Navigator]

Edited to add: You had a washbasin on the aircraft? WTF were you flying?
Or have I completely missed something?

Any sensible aircraft of course such as Varsity, Argosy and Andover.

[langleybaston]

now a nice used Elsan would be something else ..................

[ExRAFRadar]

I suppose the Butler needs somewhere to wash his hands....

[5aday]

As a youngster I was fascinated by the variety of aircraft at Waterbeach and I spent hours watching approaches on the main Cambridge to Ely road. We used to sit /stand on the opposite side from the airfield as the jets roared over our heads.
Lovely long summer holidays doing my favorite thing watching jets alongside fishing in the river Cam.
One day I came home at tea time and my father was waiting for what I know know to be a 'Hat Check'. Did I get a bollocking!! He recognized me from his 253 sqn Venom cockpit. I lost so many priviledges I thought the world had ended.
Much later in life, I was told he landed at North Weald at about that Waterbeach time in his career having run out of fuel downwind on his second attempt in inclement weather and finally landed diagonally and partly knocking the fence down. I accepted that as QED.
In my later life I always needed a minimum of 6 tons Sword and an extra bit on the side ( a ton for each of my three girls).

[Autobahnstormer]

I read this thread and shared the opinion of many that calling a missed approach was perhaps a little over-zealous. Having spent a VIP day at Scampton with the Red Arrows, this seems a bit out of character, after all they fly over and around millions of people every year at airshows......

And a true story: My Dad's old Captain was the staish at Waddington before the purpose-built 'Spotters area' was created on the A-15. There was an exercise going on with lots of visiting aircraft flying in & out of Waddington which had attracted the spotters who parked their cars on the grass verge of the A15. The local plod called Jim (Station Commander) asking if they should be moved-on if they were causing a hazard. 'Don't you dare!' was his response. He would send the RAFP out every hour who would patrol the area with a collection tin for the RAFBF, the total collected exceeded fifteen grand.
ABS

[Minnie Burner]

It's that pic again:

http://sg-etuo.de/media/xfl/XN786M-WSB.jpg