Jet2 anyone?

[plans123]

Low-cost airline Jet2 is to publish an unprecedented full-page advert in the RAF’s official newspaper tomorrow, encouraging serving pilots to join them.

If the extra pay is not enough of an inducement, the airline is offering prospective military pilots extra bonuses to join its burgeoning fleet.

Jet2: Controversy over airline's £65k lure in bid to poach the RAF?s pilots | UK | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/635325/Jet2-airline-controversy-lure-poach-RAF-pilots-advertising)

[JAVELINBOY]

Money talks as they say, wouldn't blame anyone jumping ship at those prices.

[Ken Scott]

An RAF spokesperson said: “We have enough people to meet all of our commitments and help keep Britain safe.

“It is understandable that commercial airlines will try to recruit from our dedicated and highly skilled pilots.

“However, we are confident the RAF will be able to recruit and retain enough personnel to man all its current squadrons and commitments.”

This is the comedy quote for me! Really? Presumably they asked the cleaner at High Wycombe.

Does seem a strange decision to print the advert in RAF News but then that publication has always been a trifle odd. Then again they're probably entirely safe to publish as almost no one in the RAF reads it.

[BEagle]

But you'd have to live oop nawrth to fly for Jet2, wouldn't you?

?v=6VLYpKGVBUg

That RAF spokesperson's nonsense is worthy of old 'Comical Ali', Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, back in 2003.....

[newt]

But Jet2 is owned by an ex RAF pilot so he must know what's best!:ok::ok:

[MSOCS]

I predict Jet2 are but the first of many to begin a monstrous recruiting drive.

Remember that the same rationale for stating we have enough people also let go nearly 100 trainee pilots a few years ago, and also shut down WSO training.

It'll be fine!

:{

[Chesty Morgan]

It ain't 65k either, not to start with anyway.

[NRU74]

What sort of salary including Flying Pay does, say, a Flt Lt Truckie Pilot leaving at his/her 16/38 point (or its present equivalent) get?
Yes I know it's on line but I don't understand the pay spine and other terminology
c£65000 or thereabouts for (presumably) a First Officer on Jet2 doesn't seem over the top !

[VinRouge]

Enhanced rate flying pay level 9 flt lt is a smidge under that. Op allowance used to bump my gross up to around 69k as op allce was tax free.

[Chesty Morgan]

For a new FO at Jet2 you'll be looking at a smidge over 50k basic (4% rise in Apr.) and about 4k ish in duty and sector pay and 6% pension contributions.

SFO gets a bump to, I think, 56k but the same duty and sector pay.

[Jumping_Jack]

A RAF Spokesman said 'Deny everything Baldrick!'

[Chugalug2]

The RAF used to be more robust in its responses in the old days. When Freddie Laker tried to poach VC-10 captains for BUA, his recruiters were banned from BN so they continued doing their work in the local pub instead. The RAF still had a trick up its sleeves though, by promoting the subject captains to Sqn Ldrs in order to counter the extra money that Freddie offered.

It worked to a degree, but they still had to suffer routine humiliation when checking in at Route Hotels down the CENTO route. "Are you a real Sqn Ldr or just the aircraft captain, Sir?". "Oh, then you're in the same accommodation as the rest of the crew, Sir".

[BEagle]

"....they still had to suffer routine humiliation when checking in at Route Hotels down the CENTO route. "Are you a real Sqn Ldr or just the aircraft captain, Sir?". "Oh, then you're in the same accommodation as the rest of the crew, Sir."

Oh really? I'm sure they did...:rolleyes:

"And when did you think that you'd be flying home to the UK, airman?"

[binbrook]

It's a long time ago but I think it was Brize where the S Ed O accepted an airline recruitment ad for the station magazine, leading to the cry 'QANTAS want us'. I think it was the year when rent for an OMQ went up by more than our pay. Happy days!

[Chugalug2]

"And when did you think that you'd be flying home to the UK, airman?"

Merely carrying out orders, Beags, and for the very reason that you illustrate usually delivered by the resident Corporal, if not the O i/c himself. Route Hotels then had very little SO accommodation available, and the sudden inflationary pressures of this change in policy took time to adapt to.

Hope I didn't touch a nerve, Sir? Am I to understand that I won't be welcome on a flight home that you are commanding, Sir? Should I tell my CO that, Sir?

[BEagle]

It might well have been the case that accommodation was limited, but any 'resident corporal' asking "Are you a real Sqn Ldr or just the aircraft captain, Sir?" in such an insulting and insolent manner should have been subject to disciplinary action.

Even amongst the older dinosaurs of 10 Sqn of 30 years ago, most had heard the tale but none had ever experienced such rudeness.

[Chugalug2]

Spoken like a true SRT captain, Beags. If you were the Corporal manning Route Hotel check in how would you have phrased the question in order to swiftly carry out your instructions that newly promoted VC-10 Sqn Ldr captains were not to be accommodated in SO accommodation?

I would also counter that as a result of this knee jerk policy change, any insult and insolence suffered was not by RAF VC-10 captains but rather by all the other captains who flew RAF transport aircraft not on the UK civil register. The words lead balloon come to mind...

[Fareastdriver]

SFO gets a bump to, I think, 56k but the same duty and sector pay.

When I was a contract helicopter pilot I wouldn't have got out of bed for that.

[Professor Plum]

Anyone actually seen the advert yet?

Not that I'm considering leaving of course.........

[RAFpilot23]

I've seen it.

It is making its way round the RAF faster than a FRI announcement.

But everything is OK. Apparently.

We have enough pilots.

:D

[BEagle]

Pilots (http://www.jet2careers.com/pilots) might be of interest?

Click on military pilots to find more information.

[Professor Plum]

The advert is causing a bit of a stir where I work too, although I've not actually seen it.

I'm sure our whopping 1% pay rise, new pension / NEM will stop everyone from leaving! After all, who wants to be a captain earning close to 100k anyway?!

Beags, thanks for the link. Was wondering if the actual advert had any further info.

[Jumping_Jack]

The full page ad running in the 15th Jan edition of RAF News is for 'Approved Training Organisation Technical Instructors' for Jet2. To provide ground and simulator based training.....in Bradford :eek:!

[Jumping_Jack]

Amusingly, a couple of pages further on is a 'pullout' for the new Armed Forces PayReform! :ugh:

[Herod]

in Bradford !

Eh oop, lad. Dinst tha' know that Bradford is part of England's finest county; the "Independent Republic of West Yorkshire"?

[Take That]

Looks like Jet2's recently appointed General Manager, Pilot Development, has been busy. Not bad work for an ex-GR4 mate!

And if you consider Lincolnshire as qualifying as Up North enough to be close to East Midlands, a fairly large percentage of the RAF's few remaining flying stations lie within Jet2's operating bases.

30 brand new 737-800s on order. Manning ought to take notice!

[3 bladed beast]

'Manning ought to take notice.......'

But won't!!!

Heads. In. The. Sand.

[Professor Plum]

Take that....

I currently work/live in that catchment area you mentioned, hence my intrest!

[Above The Clouds]

Professor Plum
The advert is causing a bit of a stir where I work too, although I've not actually seen it.

I'm sure our whopping 1% pay rise, new pension / NEM will stop everyone from leaving! After all, who wants to be a captain earning close to 100k anyway?!


I can assure you that you will not be anywhere close to earning 100k as a line Captain, even with sector pay and flying your backside off, more IRO max 69k and certainly not when you first start, only after having signed your life away with a long bond as most ex mil won't be type rated 737/757 etc.

Ps. I don't work for them but have it on very good authority from a friend who did.

[Chesty Morgan]

ATC, the current basic for captains is 83.5k. In April we are getting a 4% rise (on basic and sector pay and a new long sector rate is being introduced) and a 5k increase. That will take the basic to a gnats under 92k. I reckon last year I took about 7k in duty/sector pay and that will only increase this year.

I did less than 450 hours last year. If you're at a busier base you take home a lot more.

[2 LOW]

Its a common misconception that Jet2 pilots are underpaid and overworked :E

[StopStart]

Different bonds are arranged including non-repayment ones. Skippers are getting what amounts to about an 8-9% pay rise over the next year or so; LHS salaries are going to be in the region of £90K+ I think they may have finally realised that they need to pay decent money to keep people.

I did just shy of two years there and enjoyed it. There are stacks of ex-military people in the company who are able to live at home oop north and commute in to Leeds, EMA, MAN etc for a quick two sector day. It's not the land of milk and honey and the T&Cs of the major carriers far outstrip those on offer from Low Fare Finder House. The rosters get pretty chaotic in the summer and rarely survive first contact with reality. Notwithstanding all of that, its a decent enough place to work that offers the opportunities to progress rapidly if do the work/have the ability. No danger of languishing in the RHS for 10-20 years if that sort of thing bothers you.

Jet2 always have regular recruiting panics and do have a high turnover of pilots annually. Lots of "younger" pilots use it as a stepping stone to get onto widebody/LH flying so jump at the first opportunity. I left because oop north isn't home for me and I wanted the long haul lifestyle. That said, I have plenty of ex-RAF mates still at Jet2 who have turned down opportunities to move to bigger carriers and have forged careers in the LHS, as trainers and as managers.

The airlines are all recruiting quite hard at the moment. Whether or not everyone will rush out of the RAF to join up remains to be seen. There have been plenty of regular, similar "it's the end of the world!!" moments over the years and the RAF generally seems to weather the storms....:eek:

[Danny42C]

Herod(your #26),
...Eh oop, lad. Dinst tha' know that Bradford is part of England's finest county; the "Independent Republic of West Yorkshire"?...
Nay, lad - 'tis the Capital of Pakistan !

D.

[mopardave]

Herod(your #26),

Nay, lad - 'tis the Capital of Pakistan !

D.


or twinned with Bucharest!

MD:{

[A and C]

The airline business is requiring a lot of pilots and there will be other options in the business.

Jet2 have long been at the back of the market when it comes to T's & C's and the latest pay rise puts them just about in the game.

If you want to live in the north it is not a bad deal but for those in the south there are much better pickings to be had that reflect the cost of life in the London area.

[Above The Clouds]

A & C
Jet2 have long been at the back of the market when it comes to T's & C's and the latest pay rise puts them just about in the game.

If you want to live in the north it is not a bad deal but for those in the south there are much better pickings to be had that reflect the cost of life in the London area.

Or if you were a Sentinel driver or something similar you can earn 120K + for doing around 300 hours a year and stay in those nice destinations for days on end :ooh: :)

[Bloodhound Loose]

Stop Start makes an interesting point here:

There have been plenty of regular, similar "it's the end of the world!!" moments over the years and the RAF generally seems to weather the storms...

However, I sense this time there is a potent cocktail of events that we've never seen before:

- Pilot recruitment to the UK civil market has never been this great before. Ever.

- The RAF is smaller than it has ever been before, resulting in 'strategic shock' of losing a large pool of pilots.

- The ability to turn on the training pipeline is blunted for several reasons:

a) QFI mass is lower than ever due to the shrinkage of the training system post SDSR 2010 and the restructure of the UAS system. The only way to grow this mass is to poach pilots from the FL - requiring a reduction in FL ops and temporary reduction in student pilot output? Furthermore, factor the increased number of FTRS posts at the flying training schools; this generates a whole cadre of QFIs that the FL (particularly OCUs) will never be able to get their hands on.

b) Availability of training aircraft is smaller than before - witness numbers of Tucanos available on the line every day and sale of 3 x King Air post SDSR 2010.

c) The implementation of MFTS is 12-18 months away for EFT, BFJT and ME AFT. the student output numbers, and ac numbers, are fixed at a rate much lower than required to surge.

- We've had a very successful SDSR 15 in terms of platform numbers that will necessitate a increase in pilot mass - regardless of pilot outflow.

- 1998-2000 were peak years for RAF pilot recruitment (over 500 pilots recruited across those years). All of those pilots are now hitting their 16/38 points.

- The new pension has removed the 16/38 point (or at least value of pension at that point) for our second/third tourists. A significant retention lever has just gone.

- The first tourists are of the SDSR 2010 redundancy generation. I wouldn't underestimate the enduring damage that has done to their loyalty.


I haven't seen the full Manning picture, but suspect in the short term improving retention is the only answer. The longer term challenge of ramping up the training system will, I imagine, require some pretty innovative thinking.

As Stoppers says, the RAF generally weathers the storms, but it'll be interesting to watch how this time around.

[Willard Whyte]

...require some pretty innovative thinking.

In the military? Good luck with that one!

[gr4techie]

The full page ad running in the 15th Jan edition of RAF News is for 'Approved Training Organisation Technical Instructors' for Jet2. To provide ground and simulator based training.....in Bradford !

Jet2 based at LBA ( ex RAF Yeadon :8 ). It's in a nice suburb way out of Bradford, certainly nothing like the inner city, the further away from Bradford city centre the nicer it becomes with Haworth, Ilkley, Otley, etc and Leeds just a few miles away is alright, in my opinion.

[BEagle]

In times past, the variety of opportunities available in the RAF for its pilots was a significant factor. We might not have been paid as well as airline people-tube drivers, but we were paid pretty reasonably and the job satisfaction was a key factor.

But that was in times past.

When retention was proving to be an issue, the MoD/CAA working group evolved very good civil licence credit, which would benefit those who had given about 10 years of service and wanted a different career. When 22Gp killed that off, guess what - people started working towards civil licences as soon as they could do so... Then leaving as soon as possible.

Where once there were many different front line aeroplanes and stations, there are now very few. I recently asked about retention in the ME world and was told "They're leaving in droves....".

No chance of a break from the front line to do some quality QFI-ing at a UAS these days. I had such a career break, although I didn't want it at the time. But the UAS world of the early 1990s was excellent - some top people to teach (e.g StopStart) and a good flying training syllabus. No 'grading' and those who were keen did well. But then came grading, followed by the Marston lie and the introduction of 'Strength through Joy' bolleaux with a bit of air experience - mostly from ancient FTRS pilots rather than those taking a break from the front line....:ugh:

Does it surprise me that people are eager to leave for the mundane life of a people-tube driver on higher pay and better Ts&Cs? Not really - and how sad.

[newt]

Hi Beags! Not sure I agree with " quality QFI-ing " statement lol! But do agree with the rest. Retention must be difficult when the choices are so limited! I actually asked to go to helicopters at my 38/16 point but was denied unless I had a bad back! They wanted me to go spec aircrew on Tornado! Needless to say I went to BA and probably earned more but it was sooooooo boring and hardly anywhere near as satisfying flying SAR helicopters!:ok:

[tonker]

There are 4 ex military at my Jet2 base.

One is happy and will stay until he retires, one has had an interview with BA, and the other two have their BA applications in and are awaiting their interviews.

[EESDL]

Being based 20-mins from Harrogate will not please everyone.....

[Hueymeister]

On yer doorstep EESDL..you applying?:E

[StopStart]

As well as being an ex-Jet2er and current long haul gear monkey for Britain's actual favourite airline ;) I'm also still an Auggie sim instructor so sit around the crewroom a couple of times a month listening to the current harsh realities of RAF manning.

I'd heartily agree with Bloodhound Loose that it's going to be a close run thing weathering this particular storm. Things are certainly "interesting" at the ATAAR Superbase with large numbers of people looking outside the RAF. At the same time though some people have recognised that it is potentially an "exciting" time to be in the RAF with new aircraft and capabilities planned for the near future. Sadly for most of everyone else that "excitement" is heavily outweighed by the ever-present embuggerances that the RAF seem to create in all areas of the job.

As someone said to me in the sim recently "the Air Force don't need to give me more money or FRIs or whatever. They just need to make the job less ****." :oh:

[EESDL]

On yer doorstep EESDL..you applying?:E

No thanks - it's Jet2 !

[StopStart]

They wouldn't have you!
I still remember a certain night stop in Crete and the following day :}
I doubt you do ;)

[ShotOne]

It's interesting to note a recurring theme here about the perceived level of "excitement/boredom" of airline flying. What percentage of RAF time is spent doing "exciting" stuff? Most of my time was spent doing things much less exciting or interesting than flying an airliner. If you've a burning need for adrenaline, don't apply to Jet2, certainly don't apply to the airline I work for; may I suggest buying a motorbike?

[Hueymeister]

EESDL has had some mammoth nights on the lash...I remember a few nights of debauchery in the V813 mess as FOLA and FLAG fought it out..:yuk::{:sad::E:ok::}

[skaterboi]

We might not have been paid as well as airline people-tube drivers, but we were paid pretty reasonably and the job satisfaction was a key factor.

and


As someone said to me in the sim recently "the Air Force don't need to give me more money or FRIs or whatever. They just need to make the job less ****."

sum it up beautifully. As I've said a few times on this forum, this is the crux of the issue. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, it's actually very simple. Aircrew are leaving as everything is just so nauseatingly difficult these days. As such, the pay reward is not enough to offset the constant BS. In fact the BS is so great these days, any FRI would have to massive to compensate.

[EESDL]

That was my only ability - always remembered a lot more than I acted like I should ;-)
Chania
Co-pilot was on his check ride - turned left out of the bar for more bars when he should have turned right for the hotel and early night - flight plan faff saved him next morning.

Hang on -scratch that - just had a flash from the past - nuff said ;-)
Heraklion beach

[Fareastdriver]

Having spent eighteen fantastic years in the RAF, leaving in 1978; I left because in was in the interest of my family that I went to civil aviation with a 50% pay rise. I have never looked back.
In civil aviation you are paid to fly. Ok, it is at some Godawful times in the morning but you do stop mid afternoon. You cannot do this forever because of the limitation of crew duty and flying times so as a previous poster pointed out it works out at about 450 hrs. a year. When you are not flying you go home: you are not paid to clutter up the ops or the crew rest room.

You know what you are doing a week ahead. Leave is taken on a daily basis. i.e. You take four working days off after a rest period, the following rest days are ignored, another slot of working days followed by days off. Properly arranged you can have three weeks off and only take 12 out of your 42 days entitlement.

Say bye bye to package holidays. Flying there with airline discount is so cheap that you can upgrade your accommodation to 4* or 5* without any problem.

Dunno why I didn't do it in 1972 when I had the option.

[newt]

What's all this talk of 450 hours a year? By the time I retired I was doing 900 a year on longhaul! If you went over then you were penalised by the company!:E

[Chesty Morgan]

Because that's about all we do.

[BEagle]

ShotOne, I think you misunderstand. There are many service flying activities which are unique to military flying - and are very enjoyable. For example, formation flying, low level navigation, air-to-air refuelling to name but a few.

Whereas trucking a people-tube of chavs at some ungodly hour from Manchester to Argos / Domestos / Asbestos or wherever to drink themselves stupid is hardly 'interesting', let alone fun.

[ShotOne]

Beagle,I don't dispute your first point; my point is that only a small portion of service is spent doing those things.

While I disagree with your second point, it's not really worth arguing over since those who feel that way will hardly be researching Jet2 conditions of service.

[BEagle]

ShotOne, although it probably isn't the same these days, in the AAR world we often used to say "The only thing you can be sure of is the time you planned to take-off" - because the entire mission could change from the moment you arrived for briefing. So a lot of thinking for yourself and working out how best to meet the mission needs - if weather wasn't suitable on the planned AAR area, you'd have to find another area and coordinate with the area controller. Even in UAS QFI-ing days, I'd think "Ah great - some aeros in the morning, then a couple of stalling trips this afternoon" or whatever.

So the fact that, as a senior 4-jet captain I was paid far less than an airline pilot wasn't an issue - my job was a lot more interesting than yet another 0-dark-00 trip to some holiday resort.

But that was before the RAF's variety of flying reduced, 'capability holidays' became common, contractors and FTRS started infiltrating the training world and front line flying meant more and more time away on detachment.

If Σ (W+£) = const., where W is enjoyment of work and £ is pay, in the RAF 'W' used to be much greater than it is today, I gather, whereas £ hasn't increased to compensate. So if £ is greater in the airlines, people will be more and more likely to accept a lower 'W' factor.

Or, in more crude terms,"When your bucket of fun is smaller than your bucket of $hit, it's time to leave!"

[DADDY-OH!]

Beagle, once again, displaying levels of ignorance commensurate with someone who hasn't actually operated as aircrew for a UK Charter or Scheduled carrier.

If I may, I'll expand you on a few 'inaccuracies' that you've stated.

1) Jet2 is a not the only airline to carry 'chavs' as you so tolerantly put it. However, they have a Zero Tolerance policy towards 'On-board Unruliness', where the Board have given the full support to Crews who elect to divert & weight of Jet2's Legal assets to prosecute offenders & recover diversion & other costs from perpetrators.

2) Jet2 OWN OUTRIGHT most of their substantial fleet, as opposed to expensive Leasing, negating flights at 'Ungodly' hours. The 1st wave tends to be outbound ex-UK by early/mid-morning returning early/mid afternoon which is when the 2nd wave departs. Both fleets are usually tucked up in bed by 01-0200.

3) Jet2 are a growing company. Share price was 75p when I joined in early 2010, it's currently at 575p. Not a bad achievement really and considering the earnings-to-share ratio indicates that they are undervalued.

4) They are finally getting into the idea of 'Pilot Retention' as the recent T&C's improvements have shown but there's someway to go yet. They've upped the money to £90K+ Basic for a Line Shag Capt. with FDA & Sector Pay on top of that plus 8% put into a Pension. Compare that to 15-20% for TOM, TCX & VAA or 1% at TAG & Jet2 has some work to do there, but they know that. For some of the ex-Channel Express stalwarts here, they're also get 'Share Grants'. Jet2 could increase or re-introduce either of these as weapons in their armoury without re-visiting salary increases, in order to retain or entice pilots. The same can be said of Staff Travel.

5) Job 'Enjoyment' is an individual thing. I'm not ex-Military but my 30-year civilian flying career has taken me around the world a few times, in addition to Polar-to-Polar, paradropping, aerial photography, air taxi, bush & beach flying, short, medium, long & ultra long-haul on 2,3 & 4 engined aircraft of the piston, turbo-prop & jet varieties. I'm still fortunate that I drive to work, sometimes at 4am, with a smile on my face. This is because, I've found that it's not what you're flying or where to. But who you're with. Jet2's strength is it's diversity of crew, young & 'first airline' to older 'sweats & vets' looking for a quieter life & 350-400 hours in 12 months is envied by former colleagues of other airlines. It suits me fine for the moment but I have 20 years left to go.

All in all, if you're Northern UK-based it's a pretty good gig... but don't tell everyone...

[Bus14]

As this thread appears to have evolved into a Mil v Airline job satisfaction discussion, here's my take on it.

Firstly, while all opinions are valid, perhaps the most valid are from those, like me, who have done both jobs. In my case, 12 years of single seat fast jet plus guest appearances in helicopter and multi cockpits, followed by 26 years to date of airline flying.

The 12 years in the RAF had many awesome and exciting times, I was type rated at one time or another on every single seat jet in the RAF and flew the Harrier on the front line. I would dearly love the opportunity to fly any one of them again, even the Jaguar. In the commercial world I have operated Douglas, Boeing, and Airbus. By dint of right time right place (and quality RAF training) I achieved a quick command (2 years), and progressed quickly to TRE.

I didn't think that airline flying could be as satisfying as military flying, but it is. In airline flying I didn't think that instructing and examining in the sim could be as satisfying as line flying, but it almost is.

For me, the reason why the airline flying turned out to be so satisfying is, quite simply, that every trip is an operational mission. There is a job to be done despite everything that the weather, the rule book, French ATC, etc throws at you. That is the challenge. As with any job, you can make that appear routine and dull, or you can rise to the challenge of getting from A to B, and back to A again. If you can do that, and maintain a schedule, and use as little fuel as possible, and enjoy the company of your flight deck colleague, then there are all the makings of a good day at work. As a slight aside, I couldn't initially see how spending much of my winter working in the sim could be satisfying. Once again though, don't knock it until you've tried it. A 20% pay boost and, if you get it right, the respect of your candidates certainly offsets the downside, and every day I learn new things from the pilots under check.

Military flying isn't for everyone, and neither is commercial flying. The point that BEags has missed though is that we don't fly chavs to holiday resorts, we fly aircraft to airports. That's what all pilots do, and generations of ex-military pilots of all shades have achieved plenty of job satisfaction as airline pilots.

Back to the thread though - do I fancy flying a B737 for Jet2? No, on both counts. Tried 'oop north', didn't like it. And the 737, despite a few flat screen TVs, is a cramped ergonomic slum of a cockpit at the front end of an early 60s aircraft that's way past it's sell by date. I managed to like the Jaguar, but trying to make me like a B737 really would be a stretch.

Bus14
Have Fun, Don't Crash

[Chugalug2]

Beagle:-
... trucking a people-tube of chavs at some ungodly hour from Manchester to Argos / Domestos / Asbestos or wherever to drink themselves stupid is hardly 'interesting', let alone fun.

What a load of supercilious superior claptrap! The one thing that always irritated me in the RAF was the sort of rhetoric as above, usually expressed by those who thought themselves as superior to their fellow military pilots who weren't FJ, or Strat Fleet, or V-force, or whatever.

The whole point about civil airlines is that they are businesses. The successful ones are those that make money and expand their fleets, ie such as Jet2, Ryanair, Easyjet. The ones that don't often cling on to past glories and grandfather rights to LHR slots (which incidentally are not owned but allocated) and rarely issue shareholder dividends.

I recall in the 70s a fellow squadron captain was in the process of leaving and was overjoyed to have been recruited by BOAC. My congratulations were not enthusiastic enough it seemed, and he asked when I left wouldn't I too treasure such an offer? I remember my reply, "13 years of Government work is quite enough for me, thanks".

About a year later I did leave the RAF. I wrote off to every UK based airline in the Feb Flight International airline directory (and a few overseas ones too). I still have the file of rejection letters thanking me for my interest in their company, regretting that they were not recruiting, but promising to keep my details on file. We marched out of our quarter, moved in to my mother's home, and I signed on the dole. Before I had even received my first Gyro cheque I had a call from someone who had just got a job with Dan-Air on 1-11's at LTN. A mutual friend had been offered the other job but was not free to go for it. He had passed on my contact number and if I was interested to go up to LTN the next day with my Log Book. Thus I started out on a career with Dan-Air (a then solely charter company that mainly flew the bucket and spade brigade (or "chavs" as you so charmingly put it).

I have never regretted the subsequent years with an outfit that had to live on its wits and make its own way in the world without the favoured status of the "flag carriers". As many will have already realised Dan-Air stopped making its way in 1992, after a boardroom coup caused the founder chairman to resign and the company fatally switched operations from mainly charter to mainly two class scheduled. I was one of the few that were on the right fleet (NG 737) at the right base (LGW) to keep their jobs in a BA subsidiary, BAEoG. Everyone else lost theirs, every shareholder lost their entire investment, Lloyds bank (who pulled the plug) didn't.

So ironically I was back into government work or as near as damn it, but on Dan-Air pay minus 10% (though we did at least get that reinstated). The following four years were not the happiest, best illustrated by a reported BA training meeting when profound concern was expressed due to this group of ex charter pilots compromising the very high standards of BA. They were reassured, but scarcely mollified, by being told that following our "harmonisation", we had been assessed on average as being BA above average!

They kicked me out at 55 and not wanting to retire yet I grabbed a job with Air Foyle that was operating the start-up EasyJet operation at LTN prior to it getting its own AOC. When the daily 140 mile grind round the M25 began to pall, I then switched to Virgin Express (ostensibly LGW based, but actually HOTAC'd at BRU for a week at a time). When they switched base to LHR I decided to hang up my headset rather than face further the delights of the M25.

Both of these latter two companies were great fun to work for. Hard work (up to 6 sectors a day), we had to do our own 20 mins turn round at EasyJet, ie fuel and oils, manual loadsheet, etc, while the cabin crew cleaned and prepped the cabin. Co-Pilots and Cabin Crew were usually young and starting out on their careers, keen to learn and improve, and hardworking. No doubt they were looking to move on as soon as their CVs allowed, but as a captain I could rely on them to always do their best.

So why this long self indulgent rambling? Simply to counter the aloof comments in this thread aimed at Jet2 and similar companies. The move to the civvie world is traumatic enough (well I found it so), without making the mistake of joining what is the wrong company for you. If like me you want to enjoy your work rather than simply go for the best pay, then think on. It can be hard work making the move such that the minutiae dominates one's attention rather than the final outcome. It is the latter though that is going to determine your subsequent career and job satisfaction.

I feel that I was lucky. Are you?

[BANANASBANANAS]

Good post Chugalug2

I left Auntie Betty's flying club in 1992 and, shortly after, joined a B757 charter outfit.

This was about the time that control of airlines was slowly but inexorably shifting from pilot managers to Human Resources - or Personnel as I still call them.

I am now on my fourth airline and at each, the effect of HR has been the same. They are totally in control, 'bottom line' focussed and bonus (theirs not ours) driven. In most cases they know plenty about business but little or nothing about aviation. FTLs are regarded as a target rather than a limit and concern for employee health (like everything else) comes well after commercial interests.

When I got my first wide body command, a Captain was generally held in the same status bracket as a surgeon or Judge. Now, due to the dumbing down of the industry and the power grab by HR we are viewed, generally, as bus drivers. At one expat company I worked for, the government was seriously considering altering our employment visas (skilled) to that of blue collar worker.

What I am trying to convey to the younger guys (low 30s) who might be about to leave mil flying is that the industry has changed enormously in the last 25-30 years. There are some decent jobs out there but choose wisely. You may well have 35 years of airline flying ahead of you, and ongoing 6 sector days, min rest, unable to get holidays when kids are off school, lack of choice over basing, separation from family, jetlag etc, etc, are not good for your health, your family or your marriage.

Apologies if I sound like a grumpy old git. I have worked hard at enjoying my post mil flying career and I feel that I have made the best of it. But I am very glad that I am closer to the end of my career than the beginning.

I would do everything in my power to dissuade my children from a career as a commercial pilot - and conditions will, imho, continue to deteriorate.

Good luck to those still considering the move.:ok:

[BEagle]

I have no gripe with Jet2 - I don't know why people have inferred that I do.

The 'bucket and spade brigade' were those taking their annual holidays back in the '70s and '80s, with companies such as Dan Air and Monarch, off to their 2 weeks in the sun.

Emphatically NOT the same thing today. As an airline colleague, flying not for Jet2 or Monarch, I hasten to add, described them 'yobs and dole scroungers off to drink themselves stupid - quite dreadful people and I'm glad that we never have to talk to them these days'. He is rostered for quite dreadful flying at the mercy of 'schedulers' and the HR people, who have no concept of leadership. If I ever had to get up at 03:00, it was in support of QRA - whereas for him it's to fly another herd to some sun spot or other.

I held an ATPL when I left the RAF, but had absolutely no desire to be 'locked in a cupboard with a stranger 4 time a day' as another airline colleague described life on a lo-co. A couple of offers came my way, but I was content to survive on a service pension, augmented by GA instructing/examining and some consultancy work in support of a military requirement.

But if you've enjoyed your airline time, Chugalug2, then fine. Each to their own....

[beardy]

Isn't AirTanker going to be flying (short haul) for Jet 2 this summer?

[Tourist]

I, unlike BEagle did go off to an airline for a while.

He is quite correct in my opinion.
Not a statement I ever thought I'd hear myself say.

[Big Tudor]

Beardy
Not Jet2, but as far as I know they will be operating for Thomas Cook as they did Las summer.

[beardy]

Thomas Cook has a multi year, non seasonal, contract for one aircraft from AirTanker. I understood that 2 others would be going to Virgin and one to Jet2 (to replace the wet, or was it damp, lease A330 that the CAA disallowed last year.) That leaves one'surge'aircraft to be allocated. Or at least those were the December rumours.

[thrusts a must]

I agree Chugalug. There's a lot of 'pomposity' amongst the more senior service pilots, in particular the cfs mafia, re 'Civvies' . I found the airline world at least if not more professional than the service (FJ and cfs). I worked harder but got more recognition for it and much more satisfaction and responsibility. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it!

[pr00ne]

Danny42c,


Danny, naughty naughty!

....."it's the capital of Pakistan!"...

The population of Bradford is 68% white British. 26% Asian or British Asian.

So just maybe it's the capital of West Yorkshire?

[RetiredBA/BY]

As a former RAF QFI ( A2, flying standards) myself, but an airline pilot, Captain, for almost 20 Years , I can assure you that an attitude of " superiority" by RAF QFIs and particularly by ex FJPs is seriously misplaced. Many non RAF pilots made first class Concorde captains, Is there a higher achievement ?

[Herod]

It's all "horses for courses". I served twelve years in Her Majesty's Finest, then left for a civil career. After a transitional job, I found the one I liked (which included ten happy years at Leeds/Bradford), and stayed with them for twenty-three years until a take-over moved me out. Two years with another company and I suffered a nervous breakdown and had to retire. Would I go back, if I could? Not for a moment. I believe the whole industry, with a few exceptions, has moved the balance between authority and responsibility too far the wrong way.

pr00ne. Yep, the capital of the Independent Republic of West Yorkshire.

[ValMORNA]

Herod,


The Islamic Republic of West Yorkshire?

[Herod]

valMORNA. To quote pr00ne.
The population of Bradford is 68% white British. 26% Asian or British Asian.

[Chugalug2]

tam:-
I agree Chugalug. There's a lot of 'pomposity' amongst the more senior service pilots, in particular the cfs mafia, re 'Civvies' .

Oh, I wasn't restricting my harangue to superior Service pilots, there's just as much of it amongst the civvies, witness:-

RBA/BY:-
Concorde captains, Is there a higher achievement ?

I understand that if you were a really, really, good Concorde captain that the dipsticks remained dry when dipped! :E

The really high achievement in my view is to command; whether it be civil or military, big or small, fast or slow. Certain companies of course don't share that view, retaining big pay for big aircraft to the extent that their F/Os remain F/Os, not wishing to see a pay-cut by moving into the LHS of a smaller aircraft. One thing to watch out for if going civvie, the world of the professional F/O!