Airily - Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra

[Rotor Work]

Noticed this on ABC

Start-up Airly offers unlimited private flights between Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney with subscription flying model - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-11/airly-offers-unlimited-private-flights-melbourne-sydney-canberra/7081278)

Start-up Airly offers unlimited private flights between Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney with subscription flying model

New airline Airly is offering unlimited private flights between Melbourne, Canberra and Sydney for members who pay a monthly fee
Airly is effectively a flying club, where several hundred members will pay a $1,000 joining fee and then $2,550 per month for unlimited flights between Sydney's Bankstown Airport and Melbourne's Essendon Airport, as well as flights to Canberra.

Travellers will fly on an eight-seater King Air 350 turboprop.

[CAR42ZE]

private flights subscription several hundred members $2250 per month King AirGood luck to them and their dreams...

[YPJT]

This has got disaster written all over it. Not from a safety perspective but from a corporate financial one.
So when the membership signups slow down and the those who have paid up are squeezing every possible flight out of the scheme the inevitable will happen. A group of investors with worthless memberships, a trail of unpaid creditors, pilots and ground staff out of work etc etc etc. I sincerely hope I am wrong but I doubt it.

[josephfeatherweight]

I sincerely hope I am wrong but I doubt it.
I think you might have hit the nail on the head...

[Wizofoz]

Can you spell "Ponzi"!!!

To be fair, I believe I read about a similar set up in the States using PC12s,but obviously with a much greater population base to work with.

ETA- Here 'tis http://www.surfair.com/

[BNEA320]

no security issues

no delays at airports

Bankstown is much easier to get to for most of Sydney population (who don't live in eastern suburbs) + many people flying into Sydney want to go to Parramatta not CBD.

Essendon is closer to Melbourne CBD.

All sounds good to me & they don't need 1000's of passengers a day.


but have they chosen the right aircraft ? ie. big enough

I would have thought peak hour flights were the go & park most of aircraft between 1000 & 1400 Mon-Fri, most of Sat & Sun am.

[HappyBandit]

Yeah I tend to agree. Sounds good in theory....there was a mob in Qld (ex qf pilots) looking at doing same thing few years back at minor capital city ports. Investors didnt 'buy' the model. It sounds very elitist too and not sure how elite you can make the King Air look.

[Weary]

Nothing new here. It's called "fractional ownership", and it been operating successfully in Europe and the States in various size aircraft since the 90's at least.

[Wizofoz]

No, it's completely different to fractional ownership. That involves owning part of an aircraft in which you can do what you want with your share of the flying.

That has also been tried in Australia- AFAIK not successfully.

This involves flying between fixed ports to, I'd guess, some form of schedule, and you share the flight with other "members".

It all involves critical mass, and I don't think that exists in Australia.

[The Green Goblin]

They've missed the cultural aspect of flying commercially in Australia.

People want to be seen queuing up for business class, in the QF club, walking importantly around the terminal like you are a somebody. Being treated well by the flight attendants while you decide which courses to go with and what drink.

Business class is also a networking opportunity.

You won't get that walking out to a kingair....

[Capt Fathom]

Most business people don't want to be seen, as they take their seat up the back ... with the rest of us! :*

[ExtraShot]

Although Surf Air (US West Coast) and Beacon (Boston/NY) are owned by the same mob, this business model seems to represent that of the latter rather than the former.

With the Beacon model, the company doesn't own the aircraft, they are operated by a contracted aviation company with an existing AOC. Thus vastly reducing costs and complexities in the legal and administrative areas, i.e; dealing with CAsA.

It sounds very elitist too and not sure how elite you can make the King Air look

'Elitist'? If people can afford something better, with a more convenient offering that provides them with a business or lifestyle advantage (in this case the convenience and comfort of private air travel, curfew free operations, an alternative to the congested major airports - and being apart from travelling throngs of Bogan masses as a bonus) , they will pay more for it. A few savvy individuals who took the risk may then (hopefully) make some money, and others will therefore have jobs. :ok:

Second, anyone who's had the good fortune to be up close to a current model Kingair 350 would know they aren't yo' grandpas Kingair. As nice, if not nicer than many biz jets (stick a five blade prop on and they could almost be competitive in the noise department as well).

I don't see a lack of lounge quality or access being too much of a hindrance, as the general idea is to minimalise time spent on the ground at the airport. Get there and get going.

It'd be great to see this lot do well out of this venture but its possible the sector lengths (yes, even in a 350) may be just a tad too long, and the population density not quite what it needs to be for the 'must go, and go now' scheduling requirements of the target audience. The advantage of curfew free operations in and out of Sydney may be their best selling point.

Time will tell. Good luck to them.

[mostlytossas]

I can't see it surviving beyond a couple of months myself.
Who will pay $2000 odd a month with a good chance of either the aircraft being overbooked or in maintenance just when you need to go or the likely hood of not going due lack of passengers on any given day?
People moan about the Tigerairs of this world due lack of backup let alone this.:eek:

[cattletruck]

Aint the King Air the ute of the sky? With lunch catching up on 8 burly businessmen after conducting business, I'm sure the pilot could easily perform a quick p!ss-stop in one on the way back.

[The Green Goblin]

I don't know about you Capt. Fathom but I ONLY travel business class where possible.

I'm speaking from many years of observations doing such.

I commend these young bucks for giving it a crack. However a kingair can't compete with full service, lie flat beds, video on demand and airline lounge facilities. Plus points and other perks to gold and greater frequent flyers.

A kingair can be a scary place when iced up descending and climbing through weather. Something you barely notice on a jet. How many times have you ever had to turn the wing anti ice on in jet? Just about every flight the deice boots get fired up in a turboprop. The sound of shedding ice can be scary for the unseasoned. Especially when the props are shedding ice.

[Weary]

Ah yes Green Goblin, quite right - not fractional ownership at all.
Still trying to understand how it constitutes a private flight......

[RENURPP]

However a kingair can't compete with full service, lie flat beds, video on demand and airline lounge facilities.

Which airline actually provides this service between the proposed ports?

Last time I flew QF business class, (not on duty or staff travel) a month or so ago, the video didn't work (thats normal, not a one off), the full service consisted of a cheese box and the lie flat be was a chair with the tray table falling off. as for the lounge facilities you receive better service outside the lounge the difference is that you pay individually for what you elect to consume. Overall it is most likely cheaper to not use airline lounge facilities.

[The Green Goblin]

I've never not had the video system work. Being a premium customer if it didn't work, I'd expect to be moved if it were the case. Or have some compensation. However most business types seem glued to the laptops anyway.

Id take a 737 business class seat over a kingair seat. (And let's face it, these seats are probably better than the first class of 20 years ago) Just saying....

[The name is Porter]

Just saying what? Should that have been at the start of the sentence?

[VHFRT]

My visit to the Q Club is generally a 10 minute sit in a lounge with a glass of average shiraz.

While I do live in the Eastern Suburbs, if I happened to be in the west and going to Melbourne I think this would be a good idea. Crack a few St Hallets and stick them in the Bankstown departure lounge and you've basically improved on the overcrowded Qantas Club.

Points for giving it a go - but as mentioned, it will no doubt go the way of every other startup

[BNEA320]

they only need about 0.1% of the business & small business market. eg. So many reps spend an extra 4 hours while being paid to eg. get from MEL to Parramatta. Some companies send their reps interstate every week for day trips. Add it up & that's an enormous saving of time & money, which ere way you look at it, esp, when you consider some sales reps inc drug reps are on packages worth close to $200k a year plus, when take into a/c their sales target bonuses.

[Lead Balloon]

So the regulator reckons this is a private operation? :confused:

[tail wheel]

Refer also closed thread: http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/572998-airly-tries-disrupt-aviation.html

[BNEA320]

think they might have gone for aircraft with 2 few seats. Economies of scale must be awful.

Not sure what the largest jet under 20 tones is ?

[Beer Baron]

I don't see how it will save that much time for the average business traveler.

Firstly, the slower cruise speed will surely negate some of the time saved on taxi out and holding.

While Essendon is certainly closer to the Melbourne CBD the travel time on the freeway between YMML and YMEN is not that long so it's hardly a huge time saving.
Bankstown on the other hand is a loooong way from Sydney CBD along the dreaded M5 East which is bumper to bumper from 3pm till 7pm most days as best I can see. You would need to allow an extra half hour on the journey to YSBK than to YSSY from either Sydney or North Sydney CBD's.

But the biggest issue I see is the lack of frequency. You can't just turn up and go. You must have booked for a particular time and if you miss that service it could well be 3 hours until the next one. And knowing this, would you dare turn up to Bankstown 15 minutes before the flight? No, you'd have to plan on being there early as the unpredictable traffic situation could turn a 10 minute delay into a 3 hour delay into Melbourne.
On Virgin or Qantas it barely matters if your meeting goes 30 minutes over time and you miss your flight, there is another one in 30 minutes or at worst, an hour later.

With only a small number of flights a day and long gaps inbetween the convenience of "turn up and go" is not really there. That is a huge advantage the incumbents will have over this operation when it come to saving time.

[The name is Porter]

From where I live (near Melbourne) I will beat you to the Gold Coast flying my 165 kt machine than if you take RPT.

By the time you:

Drive the car to Tullamarine: 45 mins
Park the car and get to the terminal: 20 mins
You'll have to be at the terminal 1.5 hours to 45 mins before your flight split the difference: 65 mins
Flight time: 90 mins
Pick up your bags at dest: 30 mins

They've got a Kingair. Whether these guys can get this point across is another thing. The Australian RPT traveller is a dunce compared to those in the US. Fractional works over there, they're not as hung up on lounges as Australians.

And all of those figures are pretty conservative. If you miss your flight on an airline, unless you are flexi fare (loads more for the fare) it's gunna cost you a small fortune, last minute, to hop on the next flight. The food in the lounges is pretty average, you can't hook into the piss if you are driving at the other end so the complimentary booze is moot. If the punter has a think about this (which 95% of them won't) there's a fair bit of sense.

[Capt Fathom]

From where I live (near Melbourne) I will beat you to the Gold Coast flying my 165 kt machine than if you take RPT.

Except for this....

"Remain outside Controlled Airspace, clearance not available!"

[The name is Porter]

Is that all you've got? Weak argument if it is, you don't get held outside controlled airspace when you're IFR :ok:

[BNEA320]

who wants to go to Sydney CBD ? Plenty of people don't want to go east, north or to CBD. Peak hour is where 90% of demand is. As long as they have 2 or 3 flights in peak hour that will work.

[Global Aviator]

Those querying the comfort level must not have been in a modern King Air.

Have a look at - King Air 350i (http://beechcraft.txtav.com/en/king-air-350i)

As you can see a 350 can seat up to 14 in hug density however with 8 pax seats it is pure luxury aka corporate jet.

Also those querying speed again fast machine.

The 350 is a beast. Wether or not it's the right aircraft for this role or wether this business model will work in Oz? Time will tell!


GA.

[Beer Baron]

Those figures may be conservative for you but for a business traveller they are crazy.

"Have to be at the terminal 1.5 hours to 45 mins before the flight"???
Premium customers can check in up to 20 minutes before the flight.

"Park the car and get to the terminal 20 minutes???
Again, the premium corporate traveller that this operation is targeting would be getting a taxi/hire car to the terminal door or using the valet service. So zero minutes.

"Pick up bags 30 minutes"???
A huge proportion of business travellers only use carry on luggage.

And if you are entertaining the thought of spending the dollars on the subscription rates mentioned for Airily then you (or more likely your company) does not blink at paying for a Flexi-fare.

[neville_nobody]

From where I live (near Melbourne) I will beat you to the Gold Coast flying my 165 kt machine than if you take RPT

You might want to reconsider your times there. On your own figures I've got the jet beating you by over an hour already and that's not considering how long it takes you to drive to your local airport.:rolleyes:

GA only really beats RPT over a short distance. SYD-MEL is about it beyond that the jet speed kills most turboprops/Pistons

[illusion]

There will always be a nagging doubt in one's mind as the safety of one's BMW or Audi parked overnight at Bankstown.....:sad:

[The name is Porter]

Premium customers can check in up to 20 minutes before the flight

I don't know anybody who targets arriving at an airport to check in 20 minutes before a flight. It may happen that way because you're running late.

Again, the premium corporate traveller that this operation is targeting would be getting a taxi/hire car to the terminal door or using the valet service. So zero minutes.

Are you telling me that the majority of people that travel for business get a cab, limo or valet? I don't think so Tim.

A huge proportion of business travellers only use carry on luggage.

How much of this market are you saying is huge?

And if you are entertaining the thought of spending the dollars on the subscription rates mentioned for Airily then you (or more likely your company) does not blink at paying for a Flexi-fare.

Give me figures, what percentage?

[Lookleft]

Three letters porter- RNP. All your time saving comes to nothing if you have to divert because the vis is at 4.0km. Your average businessman does not understand the concept of visibility.

[Beer Baron]

Are you telling me that the majority of people that travel for business get a cab, limo or valet? I don't think so Tim.

No I'm not. I don't know who Tim is but what I was saying was that "the premium corporate traveller that this operation is targeting" would use those modes of transport. This is a service pitched to a high end customer, not just "people that travel for business".

I don't know anybody who targets arriving at an airport to check in 20 minutes before a flight.
Airly has a 15 minute check-in time, so at best the time saving is 5 minutes. Not the 65 that you alluded to previously. The need to get there early would be much greater with Airly than with VA or QF as there won't be another flight 15/30 minutes later. More like 3 hours later.

Give me figures, what percentage?
I don't know what you are asking there precisely. But, as I said above, this is pitched at the type of customer who would regularly travel business class. All business class fares are fully flexible (I believe), so of this customer segment I guess the answer is; 100%.

[zanthrus]

Tim "the toolman" Taylor. Home Improvement? Where were you in the 90's? :p

[The name is Porter]

That's it z :ok:

All I'm saying is there is a segment of the market that this could work in. I'd love to see it work, it's a good concept. Do I think it'll work? Probably not. But the numbers I've quoted you DO work.

I'd like you to tell me, which punter sets the alarm the night before their flight, plans the car trip to be stepping onto the pavement 20 minutes before their flight leaves? Pure bull****.

[wooski]

isn't this the same business model as gym memberships ?
the only way its going to make money and have enough capacity, is people are just paying for the membership and not flying as much as they think they will.

looks like you can book a seat 30mins before it departs, and no security screening etc.
i can't see it working for SYD<>MEL unless they get a jet.

i can see it working for SYD<>CAN with people needing last minute flights, the flight-time should be about the same same as a dash8 , maybe even the junglejet or 717, as only 8 pax to load, which would make up for any slow cruise time in the kingair.
would need to do at least 4-5 sectors a month to break even compared to booking a business sector at the last minute. then add your amount of 'time' saved, cabfare/uber/hirecar and work out some pretend value for that.

the membership tiers are interesting, www.flyairly.com/faq/ (http://www.flyairly.com/faq/)
based on how many seats you can book at a time, on the monthly fee.
and to bring a non member for $1500/$1000/free return, depending on tier, not sure if there is a cap for that a month.

good time for a startup with oil heading south to $20/barrel

as usual, it will come down to the beancounters of the company looking after corp travel. i would say this would be more targeted to non CxO's , more middle/upper management or sale rep, folks that can book a business class fare for their role.

loss of earning status credits would be a bigger deterrent compared to frequent flyer points, then again the business usually doesnt befeint from the frequent flyer points (im guessing people that actually use the points for business/company travel is close to 0%) , but may benefit from the status points, if the employee gets free lounge access, and possible change of fare without penalty if they miss/change a flight with a higher status level.

/2cents

[YPJT]

Wooski,
The gym membership analogy is exactly what I thought of when I first read this. Think back to the 80s when thousands signed up for an offer too good to be true. In the end the balance left over wasn't enough to pay for the soap in the showers.

[Beer Baron]

which punter sets the alarm the night before their flight, plans the car trip to be stepping onto the pavement 20 minutes before their flight leaves? Pure bull****.

But they WILL do this for a flight on Airly?? With no fallback if they miss it.
Is that what you are suggesting? Otherwise I'm not sure the point you are making.

[YPJT]

Wooski,
The gym membership analogy is exactly what I thought of when I first read this. Think back to the 80s when thousands signed up for an offer too good to be true. In the end the balance left over wasn't enough to pay for the soap in the showers.

[Ovation]

I wish them lots of luck in their venture - they''l need it. Their biggest issue will be ground transportation if the passenger is reliant upon rental cars or taxis. If you're being picked up, read no further.

I regularly land at YMEN - it is more convenient to get to Southbank, if you don't mind the average 20 minute wait for a cab, which will cost around $55.00. Because of the Freeway there are always empty taxis between the city and YMML. My regular Sydney destination is Waverton which will leave no change out of $100.00. Again, there can be a long wait for a cab of around 30-40 minutes (normal), or if you get really lucky, it might be only 5-10 minutes (rare). Bankstown is poorly serviced by taxis.

Ever tried to rent a car at YMEN or YSBK?

Absolute PITA unless you can convince them to deliver the car to the airport, otherwise you'll need to wait for a taxi to the rental depot. Dropping the car off at YMEN was OK when there was a key-drop box just inside the main door, but I'm not sure whether it's still there.



I've found YSBK is worse for rental cars unless you arranged in advance with the Mobil refuellers, but availability was always an issue.

Unless somethings changed, the nearest other car rental was a $20.00 taxi ride into Budget in Bankstown CBD.

[wishiwasupthere]

There's a Thrifty about a 10 minute walk from the BK terminal building. Still not ideal though.

[iPahlot]

If they have ground staff at both ends one would think anything like car rentals and taxis would be organised in advance given they are touting a full service model.

It'll a difficult setup to get off the ground, but if they get traction and the regulator doesn't start raining on their parade they may well have a viable business provided it is managed properly. (Unfortunately being a pilot does not automatically make you a good candidate to run an aviation business)

The world of business is full of stories of people doing things that others said wouldn't work and making a success of it.

I wish them the best of luck in their venture :ok:

[BNEA320]

it would be so easy to get Thrifty or any other rental car company to position a few cars at Bankstown. Thrifty in box seat. They are in airport grounds.

Actually hired a Camry from Thrifty Bankstown , last year & for a day it was $40 less than from Mascot. (massive airport charges at Mascot)

[donpizmeov]

Camry is less than 20t.

[Track5milefinal]

Must be doing something right as they're looking for 'Fulltime' Learjet drivers.

[LeadSled]

There will always be a nagging doubt in one's mind as the safety of one's BMW or Audi parked overnight at Bankstown.....http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

Folks,
More like a racing certainty, based on personal experience, and my thoroughly vandalized car was behind the security fence and out of sight of public areas.
And it was only an elderly Commodore --- the kids around Bankstinistan do it just for fun.
Tootle

[Biggles266]

How sure are we of them using Kingair 350's?
They currently have an ad on AFAP recruiting Lear 45 drivers....

[gerry111]

I've never had a problem with leaving my 27 year old Corolla overnight at YSBK. I simply park it near the terminal in view of the CCTV cameras.

[porch monkey]

Gerry, I suspect it isn't the security cameras that are saving your car....:8

[Stationair8]

Had you down more as a refined Mercedes AMG type man LeadSled, rather than a Commodore driver!

[V1 rotated]

Does anyone know who's AOC they will be operating under? I'm unaware of any RPT Lear 45 operators currently or are they getting their own AOC?

[chimbu warrior]

Does anyone know who's AOC they will be operating under?

CASA are not terribly fond of arrangements to operate under someone else's AOC............

I'm unaware of any RPT Lear 45 operators currently or are they getting their own AOC?

Jet City and Lifeflight are but 2 current operators of Lear 45's, albeit non-RPT. They of course have their own AOC's, but may not be willing to share....:8

[onehitwonder]

perhaps they have their own AOC

[neville_nobody]

The original concept was not to have an AOC and to use someone elses. Their business model was 'capital lite' so they said.

[BNEA320]

don't need a lot of capital if using someone elses aircraft & AOC to run a virtual airline.

[PLovett]

You still have to pay for the lease of the aircraft and a fee to use someone else's AOC. It also helps if whoever is putting up the AOC already has RPT on it & Bankstown & Essendon as recognised ports otherwise the cost just keeps increasing. "Capital Lite" - garbage!

[BNEA320]

not if some aircraft are sitting around doing SFA. Plenty of aircraft parked around the country many days of the week.

Maybe they pay on hours used only ? It's certainly a buyer market.

[BNEA320]

they certainly fly on surfair in California who seem to be expanding & have plenty of clones over there.

[onehitwonder]

Whats the story? Still actively marketing? 2016 has gone by and no aircraft?